Aberrant: 200X - 200X reboot discussion: TAINT MECHANICS

[Courier]

I think it's an excellent idea and works very well for most situations.

[The White Rat]

I like it too. Within reason. A lot of Quantum flaws should have the same effect as a low level aberration. They have now become sufficiently wierd.

[Long]

I'll support it too

[Warren Verona]

Sure, it's a good idea. What I do not want to see however, is a bunch of people using body mod for freakish looks instead of taint so they may ignore their social penalty.

Excrimental Man for example. I don't care how many Body Mod 0NP mods he has. A guy who smells like shit and looks like Chet from Wierd Science will take a social penalty if I interact with them.

Period. I don't care what a sheet says. You smell and look like shit... you fail at life, go wipe.

Aside from that, great idea Mike. I might actually use that in our TT games.

[Xeno]

I think there is a balance to be struck between taint-freakish and bodymod-freakish. Taint freakish, as I read it, is the anti-mega-social: something is actively reaching into the psyche of the observer and saying "What you are seeing is fundamentally wrong. Be horrified."

Bodymod-freakishness, I think, leaves the reaction more to be determined by the constitution and taste of individual observers. Disgust and/or horror may be generally appropriate, but there's more room for folks to form their own opinions.

...to elaborate (again, by my interpretation): You might be able to get used to being around someone with 'quantum flaws' just like you can get used to unpleasant things in reality. Taint, on the other hand, will always be disturbing no matter how may times you see it.

[Jordan]

I'm sorry but I don't really see a difference between building a furry, dog headed man through Taint or through Special Effects.

Either way most people would freak out.

If you want a minor (and I stress very minor) body alteration such as glowy eyes, pink skin or purple hair then sure. Anything more than that though and were talking taint in my opinion.

[Hugin]

Hmmmm.

If you're a fury, dog-headed man through Special Effects than you freak a body out when you first say "Hi" but they can get over it.

With Taint you exude "I'm wrong, you know I'm wrong. I am the Thing That Should Not Be." and no one is ever going to get over it. Thus the inescapable social penalty, even from Mom, Dad and the Sweet Thing That First Gargled Your Throb-Monster.

Possible?

[Warren Verona]

Two very excellent points.

Originally Posted By: Xeno

I think there is a balance to be struck between taint-freakish and bodymod-freakish. Taint freakish, as I read it, is the anti-mega-social: something is actively reaching into the psyche of the observer and saying "What you are seeing is fundamentally wrong. Be horrified."

This is exactly how I treat it during a table top game. "He looks a bit odd, but something in the back of your mind keeps telling you to be wary."

Like the viel in Werewolf. The brain cries out "WTF!" and your survival insticts kick in and either make you forget, drive you nuts, etc...

Even if you don't think anything of it, your body always knows better then you.

Originally Posted By: Xeno

Bodymod-freakishness, I think, leaves the reaction more to be determined by the constitution and taste of individual observers. Disgust and/or horror may be generally appropriate, but there's more room for folks to form their own opinions.

Vivi's hair, and eyes are a good example I think. For her schtick they worked. There never was anything really abnormally freakish about a girl like her, in fact quite the opposite. I think this would qualify as a body mod.

Revenant looked like a frozen, drown, dead man. This is taint and he should have suffered a social mod for it. Let's face it, Blueberry Thunder (Rev) didn't need any help making people feel uncomfortable, his attitude did most the work. But you get my point I think.

I hope it helps some determine the difference.

[Centimane]

Yeah, well I personally have been to countries where my white skin, extremely blonde hair, and noticeably blue eyes caused virtually everyone I met to stare at me and treat me as being inherently "different" and "other" than them. But, so far as I know, I don't have a Taint score to explain that reaction.

Seriously though, Taint (and any associated aberrations) are a Mechanic for describing the nova becoming less (or more) than human through the channeling of too much quantum energy. As such it imposes a definite, mechanical penalty on all of the character's interactions with others.

Bodymods, meanwhile inflict no mechanical penalty at all, despite the fact that having gigantic effing wings (or even grosser; flaps of stretchy skin extending between your arms and your thighs) inflicts no penalty whatsoever. It certainly isn't "wrong" to say that other people might be freaked out by these things, but there's no mechanical effect that always comes into play no matter what. I mean, almost all of the bodymods are freaky-sounding: tendrils, extra limbs, spines. Yet none of these things impose penalties on PCs (unless the player, or ST, wants them too...).

What's being proposed is a bodymod, and should be treated no different.

[Jordan]

Originally Posted By: Hugin

Hmmmm.

If you're a fury, dog-headed man through Special Effects than you freak a body out when you first say "Hi" but they can get over it.

I sorry but I still don't see such a character going on many dates (furry lovers not withstanding) or indeed, having Mega Appearance. With this body sculpting option it is more than possible which means Dog Boy can get Seductive Looks (Mega App) and Seductive (Mega Cha) and have 6 bonus dice/auto-successes (can't remember which atm) to a seduction roll.... I have problems with this.

[Drew]

Dogs can be handsome...sorta. Certainly they can be ugly and...less ugly. And it's quantum, not mundane good looks.

[Wargear]

Jordan - I'm actually going to jump in here and mention that literature is full of twisted looking creatures that are somehow compelling, either to one's sense of beauty or to one's sexuality, in a way that the viewer experiences as both involuntary and strange. It's certainly imaginable that such a situation would arise with Special Effects and Mega Appearance -

"That nova is hideous... but I can't stop looking at him... and why does he make me feel this way?"

Just an example. But the two ideas aren't completely incompatible.

[Centimane]

Even with an actual Taint score, a nova with Mega-App and Mega-Char can still "get dates". They're super-powers for cryin' out loud (the two Seductive enhancements I mean)! They're supposed to allow the character to do unbelievable and seemingly impossible things. Even a base dice pool of Charisma:5+Etiquette:5 will beat Taint 6 (on an average roll) with enough successes to at least match someone with an average Willpower score on Seduction checks. No, this won't get you a date, but even a single dot of mega-char will change this. Add in the appropriate enhancement and it's a lock. The descrip for the enhancement even states - explicitly - that it isn't based on looks at all, and looks have no bearing on it's effectiveness (this wouldn't necassarily be true of the mega-app version though).

Saying that extremely odd or gross alterations to a nova's body should inflict some kind of added diff modifier to certain types of social rolls isn't something I disagree with necassarily, but that's a house rule, not Canon. Since we're already talking about bringing in a house-ruled bodymod I don't have a problem with that at all myself, but we should recognize it for what it is. According to WW, no, having a furry face does not - necassarily - inflict any sort of negative modifier on your character in any way, shape, or form. And WW also says, yes, having the appropriate combo of BaseStat+MegaStat+Ability+Enhancment at sufficient levels means that you can effectively win the hearts of anyone, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, or even species (read the descrip for mega-char5)!

So in summation, I have no problem with the idea that furry-faced dogman with the massive mega-socials can, in point of fact, get himself a hot date on Saturday night.

[Charlotte]

The book mentions that some aberrations can be considered alluring, which puts the lie to the 'universally loathed' idea for the aberrations.

The impression I've gotten is that a nova that's tainted is out of synch with the noetic substructure of the universe, as mentioned in the description for Information Awareness. So a nova who's got unearthly beauty will still disturb people who are blind, because the senses that ARE aware of the nova, are aware on an unconscious level that there's something about this nova that doesn't quite "fit." But then Chrysalis states that aberrations that remain after taint is eliminated still freak people out, so that's far from universally applicable. I chalk it up to "some people are fine with it, so what the hell."

Essentially, my 'Special Effect' idea is there to allow novas who want to have an unusual form to do so, without the spectre of taint's progression hanging over their head. I've noted that once taint becomes an issue for a nova, it can very quickly become the only issue, or one that spreads its influence over everything they do. I don't think this is necessarily a bad story - I'll be doing my own take on it in 2010 soon enough - but I think there should be options out there for people who want to explore novas that look odd without having to stick lockstep to the Taint Progression System.

[Centimane]

What he said.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: Jordan Rossi

I sorry but I still don't see such a character going on many dates (furry lovers not withstanding) or indeed, having Mega Appearance. With this body sculpting option it is more than possible which means Dog Boy can get Seductive Looks (Mega App) and Seductive (Mega Cha) and have 6 bonus dice/auto-successes (can't remember which atm) to a seduction roll.... I have problems with this.

There is a fair amount of comic book support for this. Beast of the X-men has often been written has having large numbers of women falling all over themselves around him. I think it was pheromones in his case, but for us it would be mega-socials.

Similarly, Tigra has often been written as having mega-socials, possibly including mega-app.

Originally Posted By: Soma

So in summation, I have no problem with the idea that furry-faced dogman with the massive mega-socials can, in point of fact, get himself a hot date on Saturday night.

Or if those mechanics fail to impress, consider the appearance of Trump's wife compared to his own. Novas are hot property, they're all rich or could be rich easily, that is going to appeal to some women.

[Charlotte]

I'm pretty sure that when it comes to X-Men who never sleep alone, Nightcrawler has been historically portrayed as king.

Prehensile tails go a long way. Literally, 'a long way.'

[Hugin]

Oh for the love of all that is non-sucky lets not use COMIC books as evidence for anything sensible.

PLEASE.

[Drew]

That reminds me. Somewhere, don't remember where, WW claimed that while this is a supers game, comic books are not valid inspiration...

Who did they think they were selling to again?

[SkyLion]

You havent read Watchmen have you Hugin? That one rocked.

[Hugin]

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

You havent read Watchmen have you Hugin? That one rocked.

Okay. You point out Watchmen. Very nice. The exception that proves comicbooks are fucking absurd.


They didn't mention Rorshach. They mentioned Tigra, Beast and Nightcrawler.

[Centimane]

True, they did. But I didn't. I mentioned White Wolf's very own mechanics. The numbers speak for themselves. However, I'm certainly open to a discussion on how to reinterpret those mechanics.

[The White Rat]

I play a physically twisted, mentally deranged, no eye lidded, red eyed, sloughed albino flesh, hair covered aberration. I disregard any sort of social interaction with normal baselines. the only associations that were possible were with those who were already outcasts. All but two of these were due to taint (and I didn't list them all). The other two were flaws.

Now what if someone wanted to reate a character that looked just like the above character? Would they be treated as if they were a normal person? I don't think so. If you were to play them as if they were, I would call you on it.

My point: One or two mild quantum traits is fine. You still look sufficiently human. Any more, and you should start being penalized like someone with the same aberrations.

[Seph OOC]

I think the point people are making is simply that mega-socials factor in as a counterbalance against aberrations. We're basically all in agreement: if White Rat had Mega-App 5 and geared his Appearance towards attraction instead of revulsion, then he would be inhumanly attractive in spite of his many flaws, but not as much as, say, Gabriel Law, who's pretty all the way through.

[The White Rat]

I know that. I was referring to the quantum traits..like abby eyes, or colored hair..fur. You add enough of these, you will get a negative response from regular people. Not because you exude taint or not, but because you do not look human.

[SkyLion]

On the other hand, Japanese kids will love you...

[The White Rat]

I eat Japanese kids.

[Centimane]

The trouble with eating Japanese kids is, two hours later, you're hungry again.

[Nova OOC]

Boo!

[Seph OOC]

I used to eat Japanese kids, but then those goddamn fascists in Japan had to up the age of consent to eighteen. Tyrants.

[Courier]

RE: The proposed Bodymod

I seems to me that most of the objections being raised are of the flavor that "it couldn't work that way with THIS aberration".

But the "THIS aberration", at least so far, is always a medium aberration.

So... limit the bodymod to minor aberrations and/or bodymods? And yes, that includes blue fur.

[Xeno]

I would prefer not to have that restriction, myself. There are conceivable medium aberrations that aren't, by themselves, necessarily extremely repellent. By the same token, the right combination of minor aberrations could be cause for significant dread.

Now, at the risk of some political incorrectness, if I may propose a thought experiment to underscore my position. Some of you may have heard of an unfortunate guy who got a fungal infection in his sinuses, which ultimately forced the doctors to remove his face. Everything from his forehead to the roof of his mouth is -gone-. You may be able to find the interview on YouTube. It's a very disturbing sight. In Aberrant, "Face Excised" would certainly be a medium aberration or worse. I maintain, though, that after hanging out with this guy for a while, many of us would be able to put that aside. While a Nova with the "Face Excised" aberration would activate the "avoid at all costs" response no matter how many times you met.

I don't think significantly disturbing bodymod-effects should be without socal penalties. But I -do- think that there should be more flexibility in those penalties than with taint-based aberrations.

[Warren Verona]

I think it is the players resposibility to calculate his/her appropriate social penalty and make not of it on the sheet. If they create something like Wakinyan or Maverick and expect people not to notice or be weirded out by it then they haven't put much thought into it.

I agree with you Xeno, and you example is an excellent one. People have a habit of pre-judging and thinking the worst of those different from them. It's a sad side of human nature, one of which I'm guilty of once or twice and was humbled each time.

The only difference is that some feel it's the node that exudes the creepiness vibe. As an example, two Face Exicised guys are in the room, identical in every way save for one is a nova.

The arguement some have is that the nova guy, although no different than the other, gives off the 'avoid at all costs' vibe.

I think that players who choose to create novas who are freakishly abnormal in appearance ( White Rat would qualify. See him in a dark alley and you're hauling ass the other way, I don't care brave you think you are) need to understand that they made their social life more difficult by making their character that way.

Other novas however usually do not suffer this social penalty against the charcter. It's usually reserved for baselines to my understanding. Unless the player feels their character would be weirde out by another novas appearance.

Just a though, or six.

[Lou Anne Burgess]

I'm having a devil of a time trying to post & keep up with the discussions here. So forgive me if this way behind where the conversation is by the time I post it.

I can't for the life of me understand why this is being discussed to this degree. Yes, it's a concern, but I figured it would be over in 2 or 3 posts. Nor can I understand the reason for a game mechanic to list cosmetic changes, be they light or severe, changes.

I had thought this was spelled out explicitly in the published rule books, but perhaps I merely read it implicitly. Regardless of where it came from, In my games at home. (so take with a grain of salt if you prefer)

A person erupts and changes their appearance away from baseline normal. Be it strangely colored hair, different color skin, feathers, whatever. If it's part of the eruption transformation and not caused by taint, it simply goes in the character description.

Body Modifications have a mechanical effect.

Aberrations are caused by taint and give people the heebie jeebies on an entirely different level than someone being just strange looking (description) or having bat wings (body mod).

Case in point. Someone erupts & looks like a GI-Joe figure (plastic appearance, etc) because they loved GI-Joe figures growing up. The character has 0 taint. They just look funny. Character erupts and has the unnatural appearance or unearthly beauty (whatever it is) aberration would look similar but there is something on another level that says "something's wrong with this person." The two might look identical, but the root cause is the reason for the difference.

If there is going to be moderation and it's going to be necessary to submit a character to play/write in 2008-Prime then the moderators can simply tell someone that 'looks like Mr. Hanky' purely from a cosmetic standpoint (to use a previous example): "Yes it's okay" or "No, we're not letting excrement man in, please rethink this."

Making a character sheet more complicated than it needs to be is bad, in my opinion at least. Let the purple hair just be purple hair unless it does something or is actually an aberration.

[Fortune's Son]

I hadn't said anything because I thought it was just me. Since its not just me I'm going to admit I don't grasp the underlying assumptions of the debate.

I'm concepting my 200X character right now. At the moment he looks like a fairly regular sort of guy, maybe a bit model perfect, but otherwise very close to human norm. The exception? His fingernails are a shimmering chrome color. There might be a thing or two added later but for the moment that's it. Why the nails? It has to do with his eruption, stoner hallucinations, coyotes, roadrunners and totems. None of this is part of an aberration because none of it involves taint at this point in the concept work. So at the moment while there might be some who will think he's freakish for whatever reasons having to do with their personalties and background, their opinion is not based an intrinsic reaction of "Gah! Alien in the House!".

So what exactly does this body mod discussion mean to a character like that?

[SalmonMax]

As I understand it, the core rules of Aberrant don't allow strange body features unless they're taken as part of an ability, or as a taint-fueled aberration.

The body-mod thing is just creating a house-rule, basically, that allows physical deviations from baseline norm to be rules-sanctioned, even if they're not part of a power, nor caused by taint.

Most of the discussion as far as I can tell has either been to agree with it, describe how it's already the case (to varying extents), or talk about social modifiers incurred by such body modifications as opposed to those caused by taint.

As for social mods, complaints about bad RPing aside (because that won't happen with us ), some seem to be in favor of including rules for social modifiers from exotic appearances that aren't taint, and some seem to prefer a more freeform system.

And that is, I believe, where we stand now.

[Fortune's Son]

Originally Posted By: Lily

As I understand it, the core rules of Aberrant don't allow strange body features unless they're taken as part of an ability, or as a taint-fueled aberration.

Thanks Lily but now I have to ask why that's believed as I don't think its the case.

Edit:
To expand on this a little bit, I ask myself if there is a difference or advantage added. Chrome finger nails, eyesockets that appear empty because the eye is no longer in the visible light spectrum or arms that are multi-jointed like a snake are generally not in that category. Wings? If I can use them as an appendage, with or without the ability to fly, then it probably would be. Same with having multiple arms or, and I am even assuming no gain in points for taking this, a parapalegic having intangible teke appendages.

[Jager]

Originally Posted By: Lily

The body-mod thing is just creating a house-rule, basically, that allows physical deviations from baseline norm to be rules-sanctioned, even if they're not part of a power, nor caused by taint.

I am curious as to why it is necessary to create some ruling that allows for body deviations away from the norm. The rules on taint imply (not say outright) that body deviations are cause by taint, not by quantum.

Mind you, I don't know of anything that says Quantum can't modify the body just by existing inside the person's body.

[SalmonMax]

Clarification:

I was referring to the main Aberrant book. Physical deviations from the norm come in two flavors there:

1) Changes in body structure to accomodate powers (examples: Wings, multiple limbs/sense organs, tails, etc). These are basically still powers. They cost nova points. They don't have any mechanical precedent for causing social penalties. If I recall correctly, most powers do not -require- such obvious physical changes except for options under Body Modifications, as well as powers that explicitly change your body's structure or appearance.

2) Aberrations. Caused by taint. It's worth saying that the rules do not cover social modifications -caused by aberrations-. They cover social mods -due to taint-. Taint that MIGHT lead to visible aberrations, or might not. Either way, the mods are the same.

So!

The question appears to center around the notion of how to codify, or whether or not to codify, social modifiers for interactions between baselines (and perhaps some novas) and novas who are physically changed, but not necessarily tainted, due to cosmetic body changes that the book considers minor aberrations, but we seem to mostly agree should be available regardless of the presence or absence of taint.

I hope that's a little clearer. I do go on.

[Lou Anne Burgess]

Yes, but eruption is also partially wish fulfillment. If someone who's an anime goob always wanted to have pink or purple or other-weird-color hair and they get it, how is that taint doing it? Particularly if they have no taint?

Edited: Sorry, misread your last sentence. added here in case you don't see I added a new post to clarify.