Aberrant: In the Beginning - House Rules- (Suggestion Box)

[Primal]

Originally Posted By: SalmonMax

Primal: Thanks for the clarification on Mega Manipulation. That's an excellent point and one I'm a bit abashed I didn't notice on my first read through.

Holla if ya need me.

[Courier]

RE: Lie-Detector

The enhancements can already be purchased across attributes where the ST decides that it makes sense. This one just makes more sense for more people than most.

RE: M-Str

Things are balanced or unbalanced in the system as a whole. That's why in rock-paper-scissors it's not unfair that paper always covers rock. Mega-Strength's equiv isn't the other megas, it's appropriate match up is against q-bolt and force field.

15 nova points gives you 7[25] in damage (with M-str).

15 nova points gives you 20[15] in damage (with q-bolt).

15 nova points gives you a soak of 35/28 (FF 1, M-Stam 4 (Res), Euf 5, Stam 5).

All this exercise tells us is that a nova who wants to spend 15 NP on one thing is really going to rock inside his specialty.

But I can trivially build a Q1 nova who would own those first two novas every time *in* *comat* (rocking in strength isn't winning in combat... paper covers rock). Further the system itself (and this campaign) tends to enforce the idea that M-Str is a minor power.

This isn't D&D. Some reporter is investigating you... he confronts you on the street... so you kill him. Chances are good you just made your life worse, not better.

[SalmonMax]

Explain how Q-bolt 5 gives me 20d with 15 autosuccesses.

As I understand it, q-bolt maxes out at 10 autosuccesses, and that requires further major investment in Quantum 5 in addition to the cost of the attack power alone.

[Courier]

Q-Bolt does [3] Bashing (or [2] Lethal) per dot in Quantum. As a default M-Str does Bashing damage so I was using [3]. It also does 4d per dot of q-bolt.

I was also just assuming a Q of 5 for both. If we're going to ignore the cost of quantum needed to get a M-Str of 5 (which admittedly is 4, not 5) then we should ignore it for maxed Q-Bolt.

If you want we could pay for these things, or use bonus points for them, or even build sample characters, but the math doesn't change much.

There are also various other advantages and disadvantages we could talk about. M-Str doesn't cost juice. Q-Bolt is ranged and can be powermaxed for extras (and has extra bonuses at 4 & 5 dots). The ultimate trump of course is Mastery. M-Strength doesn't cut it among the gods.

[Adrian Moss]

Also with Q-bolt, I don't have to get close. Let's not forget that. But yeah, a Q-bolt equivalent in bashing damage is [12]20dice for 2q a shot (you have to have a Q:4 min for M-Str. 5), which is going to come out to about 20 levels of bashing damage - from 135 meters out.

Adding Mega-Manip to your willpower rolls is nice, but it still means you have to be a mega-social to fight mega-socials. sigh

[Magnum Opus]

Also, the "to hit" skill is encapsulated in Quantum Bolt - more you have, more accurate it is. By contrast, the autosuccesses on damage with mega-strength do not translate into extra dice to hit - for that you need regular Strength or Dexterity and a combat skill.

Originally Posted By: Courier

M-Strength doesn't cut it among the gods.

This reminds me. Any chance we can put a lid on Quantum 6? I'm pretty sure I'm the one PC who had it and said PC is going to be retired soon, and the post-Q6 rules are... a little spotty.

Re: Mega-Socials

Part of the problem is that Willpower is balanced well against normal stats, but not against mega-stats - there's no "mega-will." So an idea I had was to map resistance to a stat that scales at the same pace as the stat that it's resisting against, and treating Willpower as a pool of 'hero points' capable of boosting offense and defense. It's not perfect - it neuters Will slightly and I'm not sure which stats would map where.

[Courier]

For dealing with the mega-socials I suggest that everyone simply be able to spend a point of willpower to resist one social attack. Of course this doesn't prevent them from making another, so anyone making a prolonged talk with Count O is just asking for it... but if it would let people walk away from him if they really wanted to.

[Teagan Shae Ammer]

I agree with Courier. This makes is possible for Mega-Social characters to still wear people down if they get the chance, but also gives the target a way to not be a sock-puppet if the player of said target really isn't up for it.

[Adrian Moss]

That sounds like the Iron Will merit. Can Iron Will last for a scene versus that particular nova then?

[Teagan Shae Ammer]

I'd be up for that. Seems like a natural evolution if we're wanted to give characters a bit more defense against sock-puppetness. Then again, I'm not playing a primarily social based character in this game. Anyone who is, please chime in?

[Courier]

That sounds like the Iron Will merit.

Even without expansion, Iron Will also works against quantum powers, Telepathy, Domination, etc. Those of us without IW are stuck paying willpower for auto-sux, not to just ignore the attack.

Then again, I'm not playing a primarily social based character in this game. Anyone who is, please chime in?

Not yet... but probably.

[SkyLion]

Originally Posted By: Knockout

This reminds me. Any chance we can put a lid on Quantum 6? I'm pretty sure I'm the one PC who had it and said PC is going to be retired soon, and the post-Q6 rules are... a little spotty.

I am in favor of this as well. Apparently Q6 was on the table with Titan...BUT he did not make that clear before the start of the game, and if he had I might have done things differently.

[Adrian Moss]

GFG! Some of that sounds way broken. Solitaire anyone.

[SkyLion]

Honestly I haven't read through the whole thing. Just knew of it and thought it might be relevant...

[Fahrenheit]

I second Adrian - and I don't consider Forceful Personalities a well written sourcebook either.

[SkyLion]

I believe Adrian was talking about the Mega Willpower doc, not FP...

FP has gotten rave reviews. Of course you are entitled to your opinion.

[Adrian Moss]

Nah, FF left me reeling as well. It does seem to have acceptance here on N!Prime though. I wouldn't mind it being out of ItB.

[Courier]

Parts of FP were great...

RE: Mega-Willpower

I think it's too big a change at this point, especially in a mostly cannon universe. *None* of the NPCs can have this, and *all* of the current PCs were built without it.

[SkyLion]

Right. And TO has the Immaculate enhancement from FP. Its not broken at all though so hopefully Max lets me keep it if he decides to nix FP. Personally I hope he allows Brainwaves, FP, and when it finally comes out TNF. I can't wait to see what those cats have come up with! Centimane is doing the artwork yanno...

[SalmonMax]

Re: MEga socials...hopefully my idea for these will be clear when I do the section on skills. Since most mega-socials do their "damage" via the use of skills, I think that's a good place to address the situation.

And I do want to clarify my position. I don't have anything against mega socials in and of themselves. I just want a clearer and more accessible system for defending oneself against social manipulation...mega or otherwise.

Re: Mega strength. I am still a bit skeptical, but I will not change the rules for mega strength at this time. Instead, I will see how it all plays out in the game. Once I have some empirical data to play with, we may revisit this...or not, as the data suggests. Significantly, I'd forgotten that dots of megas are limited by your Quantum...which helps a great deal.

Re: the Mega-socials sourcebook. I am putting this in the same box as Brainwaves for now, which is to say that I will consider it a GM resource for when I like the content, and I will consider on a case by case basis powers, enhancements, and other player options from it. No blanket yes or no though.

Immaculate is, by the way, acceptable.

Feeling a bit under the weather now, so if I missed your question or the topic you were commenting on please don't be mad. Just give me a nudge and I'll hop right on it asap.

[Fahrenheit]

About the netpublications - you should add that to your Badass GM Thread. I remember Titan approving the books in general. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

If you want to handle things on case by case basis (which I'm in favor of) that should be known to all and those who want to join later.

[Telluris]

Instead of Mega-WP, perhaps let people add their Wits and/or M-Wits to their WP rolls as standard to resist brute-force social manipulation.

Wits is supposed to reflect your mental agility and ability to think fast. It's a legitimate move to say that being agile of mind would help avoid Social snares.

It also doesn't make Discerning Mind or Unfazeable defunct: they simply work on top. And there's less excuse for people to take cheezer abilities like Invulnerability: Social.

It gives people a better Social 'soak' without cutting the balls off player character and NPC's that are Social-oriented.

In addition, I'd agree with the WP expenditure/Iron Will upgrade proposed above. Make Iron Will capable of choosing to ignore a person for a scene, and let normal people spend WP on a case by case basis, which would give them time to get the hell out of Dodge.

[Travis Kincaid]

I know I don't play in this game right now but I'd like to put my $0.02 in:

In physical combat the mega Str or Q-bolt armed person will devastate any non combat focused PC. Why are we trying to make it easier for those who are socially focused to be resisted by those who are not? Further if one wanted why no simply add a certain amount of "social soak" based on willpower or on a combination of mental and/or social stats? Much like regular soak it would provide a buffer that would be needed to overcome for an attack to succeed.

In all honestly though you don't hear the super social PCs whining about the one hit kills they could suffer from Mega Str and Q-Bolt PCs ...

[Telluris]

Originally Posted By: Travis Kincaid

In all honestly though you don't hear the super social PCs whining about the one hit kills they could suffer from Mega Str and Q-Bolt PCs ...

Very true

[Adrian Moss]

I think there is a differnce between being 'resistant' and being 'immune'. With the proper expenditures of NP/XP I can make myself resistant to physical attacks. With a few more you can become immune. I feel this is the same with Social abilities and their resistances. If I put the NP/XP into buying such things, I can also be resistant, or immune.

[Primal]

If people played Mega-Social characters by the actual printed rules as to what they can/can't do, we'd have a lot less problems with them around here.

[Magnum Opus]

Originally Posted By: Travis Kincaid

In all honestly though you don't hear the super social PCs whining about the one hit kills they could suffer from Mega Str and Q-Bolt PCs ...

Yes we do. It's just as unfair, either way, for a GM to throw an NPC at you that you are not allowed to disagree with as it is for him to kill you by having your PC hit by a car. And I speak from experience here, having had both thrown at me by GMs and by other players.

Moreover:

1) Combat is, in life, a situation that occurs maybe 1% of your waking hours, if you're (un)lucky. Social situations, by contrast, are constant and ongoing. You talk to people far more than you fight them. So any grasp of socials and mega-socials should take this much-heightened frequency of use into account. (You'll notice we're not complaining about out-and-out powers like Dominate, because they aren't "always on," have a defined duration, and require the use of a a finite resource - and more of this resource than occasionally using a 1 QP enhancement, if that.)

2) There are a lot of different defenses against a super-strong punch or a q-bolt. You can buy defensive powers such as Armor or Force Field or Invulnerability, turn intangible, invisible, be dexterous enough to dodge the attacks, or - if the attacker's not too bananas - invest in conventional defenses such as body armor or a tank. "Social defenses" are far more wishy-washy. Maybe Wits helps except maybe Will does and maybe Manipulation does this time and maybe not. Maybe it sticks around forever, maybe it fades after a few hours, maybe not. Maybe no one can dare even oppose a thing you do because you're so super-likeable - in which case you're the most boring character ever to live. (Again, no one's complaining about Dominate because asides from Willpower there's defenses like Invulnerability and Psychic Shield, and moreover has a system that defines exactly how far the nova can 'push' the target and how the target pushes back.)

3) If I get hit by DethSkul's Quantum Fuckbeam, I know how much damage I took, what effect it has, and how long it takes me to recover. There's a level of certainty there that's just not present with mega-socials and their systems, which is a bad combination with the frequency mentioned in point 1, above.

[Courier]

The Mega-Socials are *supposed* to be subtle. Some of their enhancements aren't, but the majority of them are. Subtle does *NOT* mean anything even close to mind control, and it should never be played as such.

Ergo, while Count O should be able to get anyone (with enough time) to admit that he has a point... it's a very far leap to go from there to having your T2M PC announce to the media that Geryon should be able to kill anyone he darn well pleases.

Or... if someone is throwing a Seduction "attack" at you where it's 5+ over your willpower... you should still have a choice in there somewhere. You may not have a choice in *wanting* to sleep with her, but you should in whether or not you act on those wants.

This is why the game mechanic of letting people spend willpower to walk away is IMHO a good one.

The Socials are ultimately supposed to be super-skills, and if you couldn't get there with a power then you shouldn't be able to with a skill.

[Dawn OOC]

The best example that I can think of in support for what Courier said is Wakinyan, formerly of the 2019 board. He played a griffin as big as a freaking horse, with a Mega-App 2. According to the player, this made him sexy enough for any woman to want. As a character targetted by him, I tried to explain that while she might find him beautiful - which he was - feathers and talons longer than her foot were a turnoff. This is the limitation to social "combat." People's impluses and desires are deeply embedded and hard to change. Therefore, it's a lot harder for them to have an impact in-game.

[Dave ST]

I think this discussion will go nowhere. It's been had before and was a waste of time then as well.

[SkyLion]

Quote:

Or... if someone is throwing a Seduction "attack" at you where it's 5+ over your willpower... you should still have a choice in there somewhere. You may not have a choice in *wanting* to sleep with her, but you should in whether or not you act on those wants.

I would also add that there is this thing called 'buyer's remorse.' So the social Nova gets someone to sleep with them using seduction...then after the fact feels crappy about letting themselves be seduced. As Max pointed out there is a theme of consequences. Furthermoee one consequence of social novas is going to be that people will get wise to them. There may in fact be laws ending up on the books that keep novas from entering fields such as law...just like physical novas will be prevented from participating in normal sporting events.

As for Dave's comments, I think actually going by the book solves alot of problems, and I hope that this conversation does not go nowhere but bears fruti and solidifies understanding or at least helps Max to get clear what HE wants to do.

As for the new WP Iron Will idea...Im a meh on that one. In a way it nerfs socials TOO much. I would rather see something like that rule insitituted for Novas...baselines either use the canon rules or don't even get to "save." I do like the idea that Michelle had about using Wits to resist...makes alot of sense to me and means that Mega Witty Novas will get a tangible reward against the intangible socials.

[Titan Omega]

Max, I haven't seen you touch on it yet, but what of the question to put a lid on Q6...?

[Courier]

With Pax in the game and destined to be a villain (not to mention a PC or two with it), I'm not sure that's possible.

[Michael Peters]

I always ran into the Q6 problem in the games I ran: My characters would take their power sets and be happy with them... until they ran out of things they thought they should purchase. If you play a lightning themed character long enough eventually you're going to have Quantum Bolt maxed, Elemental Mastery/Weather Control maxed, Flight, Hypermovement, three or four supplemental powers and a dozen or more mega-stats. This led to some of my characters gazing longingly at increasing their Quantum just so they could continue to develop what they considered their 'core' powers.

I, as a storyteller, didn't have a problem with that. If they're powerful enough that the width and breadth of their powers are beginning to exceed their characters power concept, whats wrong with taking the first steps into god-like power? They've been slowly climbing that mountain since they erupted.

That's my take on it anyway: They work towards it, they want to invest the experience and time, why not reward them for their hard work? If they've been in the game that long hopefully you can trust them not to run roughshod over your campaign with their new power.

[Travis Kincaid]

Translation:

Require a certain number of Quantum powers at 5 dots and a certain number of additional "secondary" powers before Q6 can be achieved

[SkyLion]

to clarify: Q6 lid for *PCs* Q6+ was always intended for the NPCs....

[Katalyst]

Umm that's about as clear as mud. Do you mean to limit the PC's at Q6 or the NPC's?

[SkyLion]

Sorry Kat, the N slipped from my typing fingers.

As I understood Mike the idea was to keep the Q6 can of worms limited to NPCs like Pax, which I agree with. Its up to Max though. I like the idea that with so many of us running around, that we might have to band together to deal with the godling muckettymucks mucking up the world...

[Katalyst]

Np Sky, all I got to say is that I think it's a fair bet that at least a few of the PC's that survive long enough should make it to at least Q6 or higher. I for one, would like to make it that far.

[Mr Fox]

I'd like to see the option open for Q6. But I'd also like there to be rules on what you have to achieve before you are allowed Q6. Pax and Anteaus and those guys didn't get to be Q6 and 7 and 8 over night, and they certainly didn't erupt that powerful. I don't know if Titan allowed anyone to start out at Q6, but personally I don't like the idea of anyone starting there unless all are allowed to start there.

Usually what I've done in my games is allow Q6+ but only if the player had a certain number of powers at 5 dots and a certain amount more at 3 dots to show that they are developing and growing. I'd also love to add an addition to that and suggest that any power that was taken with mastery (assuming mastery is allowed) only be granted if it is in the characters theme.

Re: Mega Socials

I think that most of the folks in this game are responsible and mature enough not to get into the childish, back and forth of "I make your character do this." "No you don't". I know Rev might disagree after his recent experience with Primal, but I do think we are mature enough not to abuse the powers. A good understanding of how the ST says they work would be welcome from Smax in the Big Ass Rules thread and should avoid a lot of the confusion.

Keep in mind that being the most Charismatic person in the world has draw backs. People will expect to be wowed by your presence and might well take precautions before meeting with you. Courts might well rule that any contract signed in the presence of a Mega Social character is legally null and void. (Oklahoma does have a law that any contract signed where alchol is being consumed is void. I know a business man that always has a beer in hand when signing contracts for that reason... just so he can weasel his why out of paying people what is owed them.)

Like Max said socials can have consequences just like killing someone with a qbolt.