Aberrant RPG - Teragen Philosophy

[PolaronT2MRR]

I came across a problem when trying to run a game once, my players were being invited to join the Teragen, but when they started asking about the philosophy I had trouble answering their questions. Couple of the things that threw me were:

1) What human laws shouldnt apply to novas due to powers and such? Which ones are the ones that dont work given the nova's unqiue situations?

2) What is the prinicple tenet of the philosophy and what are the primary goals of the orginization?

I couldnt answer their questions to complete satisfaction so they decided no to join the Teragen and the campaign fizzled. If it matters to anyone it was Orzaiz and Shard who were speaking with them.

[phoenix]

Shard? You mean Shrapnel?

Anyway..

1. Basically, novas should do whatever they want as long as they're prepared, morally and tactically, to deal with the consequences.

2. Letting each nova achieve his/her inner godliness, rising above the baselines and all that.

[ezekiel]

You can maybe read the Quantum Zero in character game, pages 92+ (91 if you insist on reading the beginning of the conversation). Basically my character, Terry, discusses the Teragen philosophy with a Teragen (non-canon) member, Pathfinder over dinner in Tokyo... ::smile

I know that's where I learned my Teragen stuff...Pathfinder is the one that actually seeded interest in the Teragen for me (good work Prof ::thumbsup ) since before that I didn't really give a cahoot about the bigots...

[Nullifier]

I would think that it'd be difficult to convince PCs that weren't already leaning in that direction to accept the Teragen's message without revealing their big secret, i.e., the chyrsalis. The fact that they've kept such vital information secret in itself denotes the kind of extreme arrogance that the Teragen represents. The fact that they're correct in many senses doesn't really help. They believe that novas are fundamentally different and seperate from baselines. So it's not that they believe that certain baseline laws don't apply to novas, it's more that they believe that no baseline law could be applicable to novas since they weren't made by and for novas. Shrapnel and the Primacy believe in the creation of a nova nation, which presumably would have its own nova-made laws. Ozaiz is less critical of the baselines, having a sort of nobelesse oblige attitude towards them, but making it very clear that it's unacceptable for baselines to control, kill, and maniuplate novas through any means, legal or otherwise.

Anyhow, it wouldn't be fair to say that the Teragen have any one goal, method, or tenet of philosophy outside of the Null Manifesto, which is basically the only thing they all agree on.

[PolaronT2MRR]

Yes I meant Shrapnel, my mistake. Shard is one of my chars. ::blush

Anyways thanks, I'm about to go over to that thread and read it.

As for the chars interest in the Teragen, it wasnt so much the characters as the players who had issues with not understanding the philosophy.

[Alex Green]

RE: Which laws.

A better exercise is to try to come up with a baseline law that could apply equally to all novas.

Even laws against murder & suicide would have problems dealing with the Clone power. If a clone kills someone, is the original chargeable? If you kill a clone, is that murder?

Laws regarding boarders, emigration, and the control of the same (upon entering the country you must declare your goods) seem very, very restrictive when applied to a nova with teleport or Warp.

Precognition, Mega-Perception, & Telepathy pose problems for laws about reporting crimes, anti-snooping, privacy, etc.

The Mega-Socials pose problems for laws regarding undue influence, rape, fraud, etc.

These last two categories apply to very common powers (i.e. the megas) which novas probably can't help but use.

Example: If there is a crime in progress I think you are supposed to report it. If you can do something without endangering yourself you probably have the obligation to do so. So Superman (who can sense any crime in a very large city) is then obligated to do nothing but fight crime?

[Bahamut810]

There is a nice little speil about the law in the APG.

As for the Teras? Null took the words out of my mouth.

[Bahamut810]

As for the chars interest in the Teragen, it wasnt so much the characters as the players who had issues with not understanding the philosophy.

Just noticed this last part.

Just make references to past events (in shrapnels eyes) to make them understand. Do they go to school? Refer to indentured servitude. Are they into politics? Refer to the different moral standards that politians are put to.

If you want to give Shrapnel a more angry feel...refer to utopia as slavers. Make them the equivelent of old plantation owners that give their slaves a little kickback. If more christian bent, Novas are the Jews to the Baselines Egyptions.

Just relate it to things they would understand.

[PolaronT2MRR]

This is helping a lot. My problem was that I couldnt even think of a single example of what laws would at the least need revising. Thanks guys.

[Sphere]

I was always interested in how mega-socials would be treated in a Nova-created legal system. What would be considered fair restriction of Spin Doctors and Players? Would they be held to a higher expectation because their powers were so insidious? Would they have to regulate themselve in a B5 Psi-Corps sort of way? Or would everyone just have to accept that it's their path to evolution?

I'm curious about how the Nova society would develop, and how much it would still resemble it's baseline ancestry.

[metaphysician]

My guess is that, in either an all-nova society, or a peacefully integrated baseline/nova society ( such is certainly possible, its just spectacularly difficult to achieve in the canon Aberrant era ), megasocials would be discouraged from casually manipulating those vulnerable to them, just like any other type would be discouraged from abusing their powers. The metaphor I read once was "How does adult society look at someone who goes amongst children, and basically beats them at children's games using his fully adult knowledge and skill? He'd be looked on like an ass, and scorned." Same deal here. The controlling factor would range from societal pressure, for harmless actions, to criminal proceedings ( for the equivalent of getting kids to steal their parents jewelry for you ), with enforcement by suitable novas.

Also, a rule of thumb used by my GM is the boundary between 'merely' hypersocial, and undue influence is "Are enhancements being used?"

[Finbar]

Nope. A nova should be unafraid of using his talents regardless of what others think about it. Why purposely amputate your arm just because you can throw a ball further than others? If you have an ability, you should practice it, perfect it, become the best at it. Not purposely bergeron yourself (think about it) for the society when your talents can serve society? If society limits you, either ignore society or find another society.

Being Teragen is but the first step to realizing that...

FR

[Alex Green]

That's assuming baselines are considered "equal". Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. The other problem is those children will grow up to take care of themselves, and there are lots of adults around. Abby turns those rules on their head.

Let’s looks at some fiction examples of novas in society.

Example: The Wildcard Series (great series) has two examples.

1) The Tachistanies (spelling?) have a South African Apartide (sp) type system on an alien planet where the Telepathically endowed (i.e. Nova) lord over the non telepaths. There are references to the telepaths having “sex toys”, i.e. “sex slaves”, and no one raises an eyebrow at the practice. Basically if you don’t have telepathy you are either a slave or a serf or something.

2) The Aces themselves (i.e. the Novas) on Earth live among baselines and are integrated, living with Baseline law, etc. The problem is if a mega-manip nova used his powers on baselines to his own advancement it’d be tough for him to be caught and harder still for the law to do anything. Novas are thought of as Human in everyway, and there just aren’t any laws that prevent you from using social skills. On the other hand they typically have only a few nova points.

For more Abby examples…

1) Eden (and Blue Ninja’s Greek World). Novas live among baselines as gods. This implies a degree of “taking advantage of them” by it’s very existence… although we also have the “Novas are rock stars” phenomenon which compensates.

2) For that matter, Aberrant 2008. If a Mega-Chr/App nova uses his social skills to get laid a lot, are people going to object? If a Mega-Manip nova uses his powers to sell a lot of cars, are people going to object?

I thought Prof Potts had a really good example of this with his “Janet” character. Ethical Mega-App 5 babe… who because she can have ANYONE she wants, questions whether it’s really possible for her to sleep with someone without it being the ethical equiv of rape. A style of 15 normal dice and 5 Mega gives her an average of 10.5 succ even without using enhancements. So she gets 6.5 succ over the average willpower of 10. Getting someone interested in you is a style roll.

[metaphysician]

Nope. A nova should be unafraid of using his talents regardless of what others think about it. Why purposely amputate your arm just because you can throw a ball further than others? If you have an ability, you should practice it, perfect it, become the best at it. Not purposely bergeron yourself (think about it) for the society when your talents can serve society? If society limits you, either ignore society or find another society.

Being Teragen is but the first step to realizing that...

FR

Who said I was necessarily talking about the Teragen?

But in any case, if you took the bog standard Teragen grouping, and put them in a separate space, what you'd get is chaos and destruction. A workable society would only result after you weeded out the antisocial psychos ( ie, more than half the Teragen membership ).

[metaphysician]

That's assuming baselines are considered "equal". Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. The other problem is those children will grow up to take care of themselves, and there are lots of adults around. Abby turns those rules on their head.

Let’s looks at some fiction examples of novas in society.

Example: The Wildcard Series (great series) has two examples.

1) The Tachistanies (spelling?) have a South African Apartide (sp) type system on an alien planet where the Telepathically endowed (i.e. Nova) lord over the non telepaths. There are references to the telepaths having “sex toys”, i.e. “sex slaves”, and no one raises an eyebrow at the practice. Basically if you don’t have telepathy you are either a slave or a serf or something.

2) The Aces themselves (i.e. the Novas) on Earth live among baselines and are integrated, living with Baseline law, etc. The problem is if a mega-manip nova used his powers on baselines to his own advancement it’d be tough for him to be caught and harder still for the law to do anything. Novas are thought of as Human in everyway, and there just aren’t any laws that prevent you from using social skills. On the other hand they typically have only a few nova points.

For more Abby examples…

1) Eden (and Blue Ninja’s Greek World). Novas live among baselines as gods. This implies a degree of “taking advantage of them” by it’s very existence… although we also have the “Novas are rock stars” phenomenon which compensates.

2) For that matter, Aberrant 2008. If a Mega-Chr/App nova uses his social skills to get laid a lot, are people going to object? If a Mega-Manip nova uses his powers to sell a lot of cars, are people going to object?

I thought Prof Potts had a really good example of this with his “Janet” character. Ethical Mega-App 5 babe… who because she can have ANYONE she wants, questions whether it’s really possible for her to sleep with someone without it being the ethical equiv of rape. A style of 15 normal dice and 5 Mega gives her an average of 10.5 succ even without using enhancements. So she gets 6.5 succ over the average willpower of 10. Getting someone interested in you is a style roll.

Oh, I'm not saying these all aren't possible, or even distinctly more likely results. OTOH, if you have an all-nova society, than some of these abuses are inapplicable, because there is no automatic lesser caste to be so abused. . . and thus stronger incentive for the society to have controls against attempts to do so.

As for the Eden example, frankly, it depends on exactly what the gods do with their status. If deification includes the obligation to do good for baseline humanity ( 'great power comes with great responsibility' ), then I don't see how it is inherently abusive. Inherently susceptible *to* abuse, granted. Thats why it would only work if you started with a large and non-random subset of novas, who actually are decent people, so as to set up the social structure for the gods that encourages good behavior and discourages ( and punishes ) bad behavior. Is it perfect? No, but its probably one of the better possible outcomes for an integrated society. Then again, maybe I'm just biased, as my current campaign has a society more or less like that ( except in the ancient world ).

As for the straight megasocial example, the problem is that the same thing can happen with between a person with high normal social att and skill, and a person of average willpower. Where is the fundamental difference? The fact that it works on higher willpower individuals? The fact that it is superhuman?

Partly, I think, the effect of megasocials is overestimated. Its not Domination. Those 5 sux will certainly get any male interested, but will they get a person to sleep with you for one roll? Depends on the person, but I'd be inclined to say its still a spectrum, and will still require effort on the characters part for anyone whose not inclined towards it anyway, unless they put extended effort into shifting the person's attitudes. . . *or* use an enhancement to boost the effect. Which is why I go with the "mega social alone is not inherently undue influence, enhancement is." YMMV, but I think thats a workable boundary that avoids being completely arbitrary. Combine that with a reasonable application of situational modifiers, some attention to the defender's Nature, and maybe some defensive modifiers for high social stats, Wits, and Perception, and your good to go.

Oh, and repeating just to make it more clear, basically everything I'm saying is not, specifically, about the Teragen. Its more generally about the idea of all-nova or mixed societies, and how you could get a workable one. The Teragen way. . . is not likely to produce such, ever.

[Finbar]

1) Blue Ninja also has a Greek World? He sucks ::blush ...Either that, or great minds DO think alike (except mine is psionic!).

2) I used the Teragen as the first step, as they have the most access to the people most interested in creating a nova-based society, and the ability to pull it off, if they would stop bickering. It appears that you are assuming that the monkeys matter; they don't. Humanity is the new serf, and there's always a use for a serf...

On the other hand, they could be a first step in another way, showing that their rules don't work...Your choice...

3) Eden: Yep, definite noblesse oblige. That's what makes their society work.

[metaphysician]

1) Blue Ninja also has a Greek World? He sucks ::blush ...Either that, or great minds DO think alike (except mine is psionic!).

2) I used the Teragen as the first step, as they have the most access to the people most interested in creating a nova-based society, and the ability to pull it off, if they would stop bickering. It appears that you are assuming that the monkeys matter; they don't. Humanity is the new serf, and there's always a use for a serf...

On the other hand, they could be a first step in another way, showing that their rules don't work...Your choice...

3) Eden: Yep, definite noblesse oblige. That's what makes their society work.

2) The thing is, I don't actually see the Teragen creating a nova society that involves baselines, period. The more benign types think separation is best, the more aggressive types have grudges and issues that would be moot if there aren't any baselines around, and even the Harvesters basically just want to wipe out the baselines. The types that most require baselines for their intentions ( Narcosis and some of the Primacy, mainly ), I don't see getting involved with such a project. ( Orzaiz would either visit the human society, or shift to being a rake amongst the new nova society, but he's more flexible than most ).

So, if the Teragen ever got together to try and build a nova nation, well, firstly, you'd probably have a civil war. If there is still a Teragen afterwards, then it would continue, but I doubt they'd intentionally bring baselines into their new nation.

3) Agreed. And thanks to those evil Mega Social attributes, you actually can get a sustained society of idealists. ::devil

[Finbar]

Re: #2

However, canon proves you wrong. The Edenites moved out with mostly baselines, and established a culture that allows for baselines to do most of the normal work, and the novas are in charge (with the obvious noblesse oblige). Read: Baselines are still a major part of society, albeit the lower rungs, but still part of society...

FR

[metaphysician]

Yes, but does the canon establish that the Edenites were *Teragen*?

[Finbar]

Nope. But it does establish that some of the Teragen like baselines (notably Orsaiz), and I would definitely put that particular notable as a major figure of the Eden movement (especially if his father had asked him to keep an eye on the population). That the count's major thing is noblesse oblige to the baselinesc, and that he's one of the few novas that cares about baselines without getting a paycheck for same, I can easily see him leading the evacuation, if he survives.

Also, the Night of Long Knives should get rid of the more psycho Teragen (the calmer ones may be the first to die, but by the time T2M steps in, as well as some of the other novas, the calmer ones will have figured out that certain novas need to be culled). Given the wealth of some of the Teragen, I can easily see a certain nova starting with T being asked to give a hand...

FR

[metaphysician]

Fair enough. OTOH, your suggesting a Teragen after the NOLK cleared out the psychos, so its a little different than if the Teragen as current tried to found one. Though yes, I could definitely see Orzaiz getting behind the basic Edenite concept.

As an aside, the Teragen could have really used a faction that basically believes that novas should be gods that help baseline humanity, not because the baselines force them to ( as with Utopia, at least in the Teragen mind ), but because the novas choose to do so. This would massively complicate both internal Teragen issues *and* external responses to the Teragen, and in a good way, IMO. Mal shouldn't object, either, since while he seems to think separatism is best, it is a legitimate interpretation of the underlying concepts of the Null Manifesto, as well as compatible with the Marvel and Visionary archetypes.

[Alex Green]

As for the straight megasocial example, the problem is that the same thing can happen with between a person with high normal social att and skill, and a person of average willpower. Where is the fundamental difference? The fact that it works on higher willpower individuals? The fact that it is superhuman?

The differences?

1) Scale: High normal social att normally means 7+ dice, with world famous types being 9+ (max of 10). Low end willpower is presumably a 3. That’s a dice advantage of 4 to 6, or a succ advantage of about 2. If the low willpower person is married or otherwise unwilling they can still walk away, especially with spending willpower. Anyone with any of the Devotion merit is basically immune. Janet has 5+ succ over *anyone’s* willpower, even after they spend willpower. She has an average of 4.5 succ over a 10 willpower in combo with the Devotion merit… which comes pretty close to 5+. And this is without dragging enhancements, or her spending willpower, or anything similar into this. This is her on a bad day.

2) Availability: Again, Janet can do this to anyone.

3) Potential for abuse: Much greater.

4) Because it’s superhuman this effect is restricted to an easily identifiable subset of society. Society can live with rock stars shagging groupies. It’s a lot more stressful for society when it comes out that, in theory, any nova can sleep with any baseline and they have pretty much no chance to say no.

will they get a person to sleep with you for one roll? Depends on the person, but I'd be inclined to say its still a spectrum, and will still require effort on the characters part…

With 5+ succ, it might last a scene since the contest is so overwhelmingly one sided. But even if we do want to re-do that contest, chances are really good we’re going to see the same result.

[Alex Green]

metaphysician: So, if the Teragen ever got together to try and build a nova nation, well, firstly, you'd probably have a civil war. If there is still a Teragen afterwards, then it would continue, but I doubt they'd intentionally bring baselines into their new nation.

Ignoring the issue of who changes bedpans and deals with the garbage, the monster archetype needs *someone* to terrorize. The marvel archetype needs someone to impress.

Finbar: Also, the Night of Long Knives should get rid of the more psycho Teragen (the calmer ones may be the first to die, but by the time T2M steps in, as well as some of the other novas, the calmer ones will have figured out that certain novas need to be culled).

History says otherwise. With a break down of law and order and the full fledged outbreak of violence, it’s the extremists who usually end up in charge. “He’s a nut and a casual killer… but he’s out nut and casual killer”. Expecting the moderates to violently take charge doesn’t really pass muster. The violent nuts are better at being violent nuts.

Cannon also says otherwise. In future decades the Teragen is going to be an outright terrorist group and going to call for the extermination of baseline humanity. Shrapnel is the future of the movement.

[Finbar]

I refuse to be pessimistic about the future, even when it's been written in stone ::blush ...

FR

[metaphysician]

As for the straight megasocial example, the problem is that the same thing can happen with between a person with high normal social att and skill, and a person of average willpower. Where is the fundamental difference? The fact that it works on higher willpower individuals? The fact that it is superhuman?

The differences?

1) Scale: High normal social att normally means 7+ dice, with world famous types being 9+ (max of 10). Low end willpower is presumably a 3. That’s a dice advantage of 4 to 6, or a succ advantage of about 2. If the low willpower person is married or otherwise unwilling they can still walk away, especially with spending willpower. Anyone with any of the Devotion merit is basically immune. Janet has 5+ succ over *anyone’s* willpower, even after they spend willpower. She has an average of 4.5 succ over a 10 willpower in combo with the Devotion merit… which comes pretty close to 5+. And this is without dragging enhancements, or her spending willpower, or anything similar into this. This is her on a bad day.

2) Availability: Again, Janet can do this to anyone.

3) Potential for abuse: Much greater.

4) Because it’s superhuman this effect is restricted to an easily identifiable subset of society. Society can live with rock stars shagging groupies. It’s a lot more stressful for society when it comes out that, in theory, any nova can sleep with any baseline and they have pretty much no chance to say no.

will they get a person to sleep with you for one roll? Depends on the person, but I'd be inclined to say its still a spectrum, and will still require effort on the characters part…

With 5+ succ, it might last a scene since the contest is so overwhelmingly one sided. But even if we do want to re-do that contest, chances are really good we’re going to see the same result.

Points on 1-3, though the problem is, they are all still matters of degree, not kind.

4, however, not quite. Any nova with 4+ megasocials, yes, but not any nova period. Most novas don't have high-end megasocials.

Perhaps this is a matter of interpretation. I don't see social attributes, in themselves, allowing you to override strongly held beliefs and intentions with single rolls, without using enhancements.

( perhaps more indication that megasocials do need more defense than just WP. . . )

metaphysician: So, if the Teragen ever got together to try and build a nova nation, well, firstly, you'd probably have a civil war. If there is still a Teragen afterwards, then it would continue, but I doubt they'd intentionally bring baselines into their new nation.

Ignoring the issue of who changes bedpans and deals with the garbage, the monster archetype needs *someone* to terrorize. The marvel archetype needs someone to impress.

I don't think the "Monster" archetype can survive in a stable society, period. As for the Marvels, its possible to awe and impress novas, too. A little harder, but thats just challenge.

[Alex Green]

4, however, not quite. Any nova with 4+ megasocials, yes, but not any nova period. Most novas don't have high-end megasocials.

Point to a nova. How do you tell if he has high-end mega-socials? For that matter, in theory any nova is 6 exp away from Mega-Chr (Seduction).

Joe baseline might find this a little disquieting if the knowledge gets out.

Perhaps this is a matter of interpretation. I don't see social attributes, in themselves, allowing you to override strongly held beliefs and intentions with single rolls, without using enhancements.

So it takes more than one roll. :Shrug: Janet is throwing enough dice that I don't think she's going to have a problem matter how many times she has to do it... and she isn't spending juice.

I don't think the "Monster" archetype can survive in a stable society, period...

Ditto, and yet we see a great number of them.

So after the Teragen goes into this other universe... what do they do? This is yet another example IMHO of Divis not dealing with reality.

[metaphysician]

Well, you can spot mega-appearance novas pretty easily ( barring Mr Nobody or such deliberate concealment efforts ). At least in my campaign, mega-charisma is, while not as blatantly obvious, not that hard to spot. Mega-manip, OTOH. . .

That said, re: Monster- after Mal creates his own universe, the Monsters would probably end up antagonists for his efforts. An inevitable flaw that keeps popping up, and keeps needing to be put down.

[Blue Thunder]

The Monsters would fit in fine. This isn't a baseline society they're making, remember. It's a nova society. A nova society full of people that are mostly Tainted...people that consider temselves far removed from thier baseline origins. They don't think like baselines, look like baselines, or feel like baselines.

Were it a baseline civilization, Monsters would be killed. We see this on Earth during the Aberrant War. But in a new nova society where baseline ethics and morals no longer apply, since thee are no baselines, they fit in perfectly. The entire point of the Chrysalis (and the journey one takes before every Chrysalis) is to let go of your baseline trappings and embrace what makes you nova.

[Alex Green]

The Monsters would fit in fine. This isn't a baseline society they're making, remember. It's a nova society. A nova society full of people that are mostly Tainted...people that consider temselves far removed from thier baseline origins. They don't think like baselines, look like baselines, or feel like baselines.

Were it a baseline civilization, Monsters would be killed. We see this on Earth during the Aberrant War. But in a new nova society where baseline ethics and morals no longer apply, since thee are no baselines, they fit in perfectly. The entire point of the Chrysalis (and the journey one takes before every Chrysalis) is to let go of your baseline trappings and embrace what makes you nova.

That certainly is the claim. However, unless I'm missing something, there is a problem.

Since creating fear and having victims is such a big part of being a monster, with no baselines around, who exactly are they going to repress? Assuming for the moment that the monsters don't stop being monsters, I have to assume they'll go after the novas. I also strongly suspect that the other novas will defend themselves.

[metaphysician]

I suppose, in theory, at a certain point all the three archetypes would sort of meet at a common endpoint, that of the true posthuman individual, who genuinely has as much in common with humans as humans have with monkeys.

I say "in theory," because I doubt its really especially likely for full societies worth of such people to develop. I mean, amongst the Teragen themselves, the only people who have really achieved such are Divis Mal, and probably Scripture. So, in practice, a Teragen-based nova society would have maybe a small handful of true posthumans, and a vast majority of less advanced novas.

Thus, either the Monster archetype would be excluded, or else they'd have busy internal conflict. After all, the most vigorous embracees of the Monster, the Harvesters, are only about 1 and a half steps from declaring war on those novas that are too human. . .

[Alex Green]

Oh it doesn't stop there. We also have a multi-factional religious war starting up, and a race war as well. Shrapnel's group *really* doesn't like the non-white novas.

Tossing out "baseline ethics" is not IMHO a good thing.

[Blue Thunder]

Heh, no one said the Teragen was perfect. Or nearly so. I'd even say it is the most flawed group in the entire setting. But t's still the most intriguing. I want to run a Night of Long Knives campaign so badly...

[SkyLion]

Heh, no one said the Teragen was perfect. Or nearly so. I'd even say it is the most flawed group in the entire setting. But t's still the most intriguing. I want to run a Night of Long Knives campaign so badly...

Let us know when you are ready to ST! Theres more than a few here looking to join a game but BN's has been full for awhile...

[metaphysician]

Oh it doesn't stop there. We also have a multi-factional religious war starting up, and a race war as well. Shrapnel's group *really* doesn't like the non-white novas.

Tossing out "baseline ethics" is not IMHO a good thing.

Yep. The hope, I think, was that the novas in question would than aspire to create something better. The problem is, most of them got caught in the moral trap of non-responsibility, and so didn't *want* to give up their newfound freedom of action.

Which is, again, why Scripture and Orzaiz are pretty much the only two Teragen members that Mal actually respects. . . all the more ironic, considering Orzaiz is one to openly and regularly disagree with him.

[Alex Green]

A big piece of the problem IMHO is most of the Teragen still defines themself in terms of what they are not. They are not human, they are moving away from humanity, etc. So they are still stuck with human or anti-human mentalities.

The inventor of math/democracy stepped beyond monkeys, the man who killed lots of monkeys for revenge or pleasure did not.

I think tossing out baseline ethics was/is a mistake, because very likely novas will need something like it. Marriage wasn't invented by humans but we use it anyway.

[metaphysician]

Bingo. They should have focused on creating something new to be, rather than rejection. Problem being, rejection apparently works just fine for Chrysalis. . .

This is where Divis Mal's social autism/transcendent megagenius blindness has its real influence, IMO. He wasn't 'aware' enough to realize that his own example would be so massively misunderstood by the Teragen.

[Blue Thunder]

Let us know when you are ready to ST! Theres more than a few here looking to join a game but BN's has been full for awhile...

I've never run a message board game before, or even partcipated in one; I've only done actual tabletop games. Maybe I'll give it a shot. The NoLK is just too juicy to pass up. The characters have the chance to shape the Teragen, and affect the world in all kinds of ways.

[SkyLion]

I've never run a message board game before, or even partcipated in one; I've only done actual tabletop games. Maybe I'll give it a shot. The NoLK is just too juicy to pass up. The characters have the chance to shape the Teragen, and affect the world in all kinds of ways.

,,

cool! ::thumbup1 Not a bad idea to go reading through the forum game archives here to get an idea of the format and also the pacing. Let us know dude!

,,

Marriage wasn't invented by humans but we use it anyway.

,,

Huh? Who invented marriage then? Are you speaking in religious/christian terms, as in: Marriage is an institution given to us by God? Or referring to those animal species who mate for life with one partner only?...which is genetic and not neccesarily the social idea of "marriage."

[Alex Green]

Huh? Who invented marriage then? Are you speaking in religious/christian terms, as in: Marriage is an institution given to us by God? Or referring to those animal species who mate for life with one partner only?...which is genetic and not neccesarily the social idea of "marriage."

I'm talking about animal species. Similarly, man is not the only animal that rapes, or trades, etc. Behavior that manifests in multiple species exists for sound reasons. Trying to get rid of it because "baselines do it" is faulty logic.

Terats should move to something, not away from something.

[SkyLion]

I'm talking about animal species.

got it.

Terats should move to something, not away from something.

,,

no argument from me! Defining oneself in opposition locks one in opposition....now if only we could get some people IRL to understand this!!!! war does not create peace