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Watchmen

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I just read Alan Moore's Watchmen for the first time, and it just blew me away. I take it you guys have all read it before?

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That's comforting to know that Watchmen still wins over new readers. So many things it broke ground on and introduced have become common in comics that it doesn't always seem fresh to new readers, so it's nice to find out new folks are discovering it.

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I too have heard many good things about watchmen, though haven't gotten around to it yet. I have some of The Authority, which is very good and have heard that it follows in the footsteps of the more venerable Watchmen. Oh by the way...they are working on the movie... ::biggrin

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Actually a friend of mine did an independent study and got school credit for discussing Watchmen and other comics; I borrowed his copy. It was full of notes. ::biggrin

I finished it in 24 hours instead of studying for my organic chemistry exam, and then ran out and bought it today so I could read it again. Already I'm noticing new things, for example the "the end is near" guy suddenly looks really familiar.. ::idea

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It's very good indeed to know that Watchmen is still gaining readers. My first exposure to it was back when Aberrant first came out, and that graphic novel was touted as a good resource (massive understatement ::sly ).

Authority and Planetary have also been inspirational, along with Adam Warren's run of Gen13.

But what's this talk of a Watchmen movie? Other than The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen & V for Vendetta, I wasn't aware that any more of Alan Moore's works were going to be adapted (some purist fans would say "desecrated") by Hollywood. ::confused

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Thanks! Provided that they don't mess up the adaptation, this ought to be a must-see when it comes out. ::cool
How could they *not* mess up the adaptation? Sex, including rape, plays a serious part of the plot line. One of the 'heroes' is an insane murderer. One of them is... well, I could go on.

I predict extremely heavy presure on the director to tone down much of what happened.

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Re: Messing up the adaptation-

After reviewing just how badly LXG got warped in its transition to the big screen, I'm forced to admit that Watchmen is likely to suffer the same fate... unless Alan Moore has learned his lesson & found a way to counteract said pressure upon the director to bowlderize the scrrenplay. Wishful thinking perhaps, but optimism in these early days of production is still feasible for the moment.

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He was so pissed about the changes to V, that he took his name off the whole production...though that movie at least kicked ass.

,,

So far the only comment is that the Black Ship arc may not be in the movie but possibly part of an extended DVD.

,,

And I enjoyed LXG, in a sort of Adventure! kind of way (though yes its set in Victorian Era). Though sadly yes it gave into Hollywood camp and would have been much cooler had it kept its dark edge.

,,

Hollywood may just be too PC...they think the world isnt ready for Alan Moore....yet they are willing to peddle gore-schlock like the Saw franchise. *shudder*

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My biggest beefs with the movie version of LXG were:

1- their getting rid of Quartermain's opium addiction and making him the leader, and

2- how they relegated Mina Murray to the token female of the group (she was originally the leader), and made her into a vampire. In the book, Ms. Murray didn't need vampiric powers to be effective.

The other changes, such as including Tom Sawyer & Dorian Grey and using a different Invisible Man than old Hawley Griffin weren't nearly as bad. At least they did a good job on Captain Nemo. That was the first movie adaptation of him I'd ever seen that portrayed him as the Sikh he was instead of some white guy. ::smile

Getting back to Watchmen, I'll be pessimistic and predict that among the other censoring of "unsuitable items" that will take place, Dr. Manhattan's habit of going without clothing will be written out of his movie version. ::thumbdown: Thank goodness that the comics industry did away with that ridiculous old "Comics Code" relic from the 1950s. Otherwise, we wouldn't even have the print versions of Moore's works to enjoy.

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I'm not sure if you all have read Dc's "Kindom Come" by Mark Waid and Alex Ross. It was not as groundbreaking as Watchmen, but certainly worth of mention in the same breath.

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My biggest beefs with the movie version of LXG were:

1- their getting rid of Quartermain's opium addiction and making him the leader...

Ignoring the "would Connery allowed himself to be cast without those"...

I don't think they could have a drug addicted superhero without spending FAR too much time on that issue. They certainly couldn't have had it be a minor plot point.

Now back in his day, they could and they did... sort of like you could have someone go on a bender now days without too much of a problem. For example Sherlock Homes was also an opium addict.

However what that means has changed dramatically as both the drug (much stronger), and the culture (less tolerant), has changed.

If they wanted to do the equiv thing nowdays, they could make him an alcoholic.

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Kingdom Come is one of the best comic stories ever published, Shade. Period.

It was an obvious inspiration for Aeon too, even without seeing it's name printed in the back of the books. The Wycoff Disaster from Trinity and the Wyoming explosion from Kingdom Come are pretty much identical.

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I'm glad other people feel that way. I own it and have read it about 40 times. It is too cool. I also am big fan of Frank Millers "Dark Knight Returns" which along with kingdome come and watchmen round out the top of my list. 300 was pretty damn good too...but not in the same class.

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All of those books are awesome and I've thoroughly enjoyed reading them, but one book you didn't mention was Batman: Year One. That story is just awesome, especially if you're a Batman fan.

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All of those books are awesome and I've thoroughly enjoyed reading them, but one book you didn't mention was Batman: Year One. That story is just awesome, especially if you're a Batman fan.

Good story by Frank Miller as well...but not as good as Dark Knight Returns!

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Don't forget Marvels, another good one. It was also a huge inspiration for Aberrant.

I'd have to say the five stories/series I recomend most, even for someone that hates comic books, would be (in no particular order):

Watchmen

Kingdom Come

Marvels

early Astro City (I haven't even read the later stuff, so I don't know...)

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns

IMO, those five sum up everything I love about comic books. Despite the failings of most superhero comics (as much as I love the X-Men, they are a franchise and a brand, so in the end the stories tread safer ground...not to mention the merry-go-round of writers and artists) those stick out above the rest as superior. They'll be the stories that fans point back to, decades from now. Hell, they already do.

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Don't forget Marvels, another good one. It was also a huge inspiration for Aberrant.

I'd have to say the five stories/series I recomend most, even for someone that hates comic books, would be (in no particular order):

Watchmen

Kingdom Come

Marvels

early Astro City (I haven't even read the later stuff, so I don't know...)

Batman: The Dark Knight Returns

IMO, those five sum up everything I love about comic books. Despite the failings of most superhero comics (as much as I love the X-Men, they are a franchise and a brand, so in the end the stories tread safer ground...not to mention the merry-go-round of writers and artists) those stick out above the rest as superior. They'll be the stories that fans point back to, decades from now. Hell, they already do.

I don't know if you have ever read it, but if you want an Xmen story to blow your hair back...read "God loves, Man Kills" by Chris Clairemont. Talk about a non-safe X-book. WOW.

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Speaking of X-men, Joss Whedon has been having a great run with the launch of Astonishing.

And of course, let us never forget the Authority...

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Well, first off (and I hate to say this since it seems like I'm the only one who thinks so) I'm gonna reiterate my opinion that Batman: year one kicks major backside. I don't think most people realize just how much that one story arc has influenced the modern mythos of Batman, nor do they remember just how many moments in that story are some of the very best Batman moments in comics history. There's also another reason I give this story pride of place over The Dark Knight Returns: it tells Batman's origins. The Dark Knight we see in the TDKR wouldn't be who he is if he hadn't gone through his Year One. Then there's the fact that Year One also tells the parallel story of Jim Gordon in the beginning of his career and this story kicks almost as much ass as Batmans, it's like getting two for the price of one! So I like Batman: Year One better (but not by much).

Second, there's one story arc that hasn't been listed here at all (or maybe it was and I missed it): Sandman. If you haven't read those books, they're frickin' amazing! And to be perfectly honest they blow many of the other titles listed here right out of the water in terms of writing and in terms of sheer grandness of scope. Of course, Sandman isn't much of a superheroes story, so it loses on that stroke, but then if you look at it right, neither is Watchmen.

All of this is, of course, just my opinion and many (maybe even all) of you may disagree. If you do, that's fine, it won't hurt my feelings (much ::sad ). ::tongue

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I'm not saying there haven't been dark and shocking X-Men stories (Angel having his wings removed and the Marauder massacre rank up there IMO). But for the most part, they stick to safe stuff. It's the same with all major comic books. Remember how Magneto was recently "killed" but then Marvel flipped out at the writer and patched it up to make him alive? (This would be that whole Xorn debacle). The series is a franchise, so certain things cannot be done to it. Writers are restrained from making changes to characters unless they fly them all by the higher-ups.

Heck, after Northstar came out as gay, he was supposed to reveal he had HIV. In one issue of Alpha Flight he was revealed to have a "virus" and then Marvel made the writer drop the storyline. So Northstar had a "virus" that magically went away because it was never addressed again.

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Re: Kingdom Come-

I'd have to pitch in my 2¢'s worth of approval for Kingdom Come, as its influence on Aberrant & Trinity cannot be denied. Anyone remember that picture in the Trinity core book of Divis Mal torching the UN Secretary in 2063? Take a gander at Superman's little visit to the UN (towards the end of KC), & tell me that the 2 incidents don't look like funhouse-mirror reflections of each other. ::cool

Re: Other good sources-

I'd recommend all of Astro City for its emotional realism, even though the rest of it is strictly 4-color. Also, I'd like to point out the Planetary series as another good source for Aeon Continnum games, especially for those who prefer stronger links between Adventure! & Aberrant.

Re: The X-Men franchise-

I'd pretty much given up on the X-Men - and Marvel in general - after the original Age of Apocalypse story arc played out. (I'd stopped reading DC comics earlier.) Seeing how Marvel gleefully screwed up the AoA in an attempt to make more money off of it has only extinguished any desire I might've had to purchase any of their comics and 99% of their graphic novels.

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I gave up on Marvel after the Onslaught Saga. My God, I hated that story. There's nothing worse than having an omnipotent supremely powerful villain pop in out of no where and pwn the heroes, especially when it's an unknown villain the writers just made up, one with no real background, and more importantly, no build up and fanbase. Case in point: Onslaught. See also: Doomsday (he "killed" Superman, remember? Out of fuckin nowhere). The reason villains like Joker and Magneto are so well loved is because they're so developed. Onslaught was just "Hi, I'm a combination of Xavier and Magneto, I can do anything, watch me blow stuff up and give long-winded speeches, wheeee!" and I hated it. I haven't read Civil War yet, but at least it looks grounded and relevant; two qualities that comic books have being lacking lately. House of M was a good read too (what little of it I gandered at) but the whole thing with having only 198 mutants left in the world seemed like something that would eventually go away, but it's still here, and I'm wondering when the effects will be reversed...

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Re: Onslaught, Doomsday & other such Instant Menaces©-

About the only aspect of Onslaught's ilk that's applicable to Aberrant/Aeon would be the factor of increasing Taint accumulation suddenly making "villains" out of erstwhile "heroes". In terms of comic storylines, however, I agree that Onslaught & Co. sucked big time.

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but the whole thing with having only 198 mutants left in the world seemed like something that would eventually go away, but it's still here, and I'm wondering when the effects will be reversed...

Will they get more? Yep.

Will they go back to having millions of mutants; Hopefully not.

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Re: What Superman did near the end of KC-

Apologies in advance if I'm spoiling this for anyone.

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s

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Scene: Just after nearly all the superhumans at the Gulag were killed by the (only somewhat muffled) blast from the UN's tactical nuke.

Superman has survived the blast w/out any protection, & mistakenly thinks that he's the ONLY metabeing to survive it. Supes gets PO'd to the point where his eyes glow bright red (the same way Divis Mal's eyes glow bright green), and goes into a brief fit of "screaming out in anguish and rage". Then he flies directly to the UN, welds all the doors & exits shut with his heat vision, and begins to bring the roof down on the panicked UN ambassadors inside.

An appeal from Norman McCay (who'd been acting as the Spectre's "guide mortal" through all this) manages to shake Superman out of his rage, but just barely.

It strikes me that compared with Superman's attempted mass murder of everyone at the UN, Divis Mal was quite restrained in that he limited himself to turning only the UN general secretary to greasy cinders whilst giving his farewell speech in 2063.

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Adding to great stories, I'd add FF vs. X-Men...It's right after the Mutant Massacre, when She-Hulk was part of the FF and Magneto was part of the X-Men. It starts with Kitty Pryde's near-suicide, with a cute save by Franklin Richards. Meanwhile, Reed finds his old journal (the one where he wrote down his personal notes re: That Trip (where they got their powers), and begins to doubt himself, and so is unsure if his new invention can save Kitty. That leads to the standard super-hero battle, where the X-Men "borrow" the new invention, but with repercussions: The X-Men deciding that they can't Reed Richards, and so they end deciding to go with Dr. Doom, and Johnny Storm is shaken re: the control of his powers.

Besides giving some cool exposition re: Magneto and Doom (basically, more of Magneto's emotional backstory and just how nasty Doom is), there is also some character development on the FF (each has to face their own dark night due to the revelation that Reed may have caused the accident (Sue as the wife, Reed as husband and father, Johnny's maturity, and the Thing having to deal with the fact that his monstrosity was caused by his best friend)).

This leads to the best showdown ever between Reed and Doom, where they show how they there are reflections of each other, and where Reed faces down his greatest fear. It ends with the usual celebration, where Sue asks Doom what would happen if she fought by his rules, and where she warns him about going after her husband and son.

All in all, it's great for Abby players because you have it all: Taint and its effects, training, casual power use, and heroes with a dark side...A great read if you can find it!

FR

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I happen to love Marvel, thank you very much! You just have to know which titles to go for...

The Ultimate line is excellent...especially The Ultimates, Ultimate X-men and FF. Ive stayed away from Ultimate spidey for the most part, since his arcs have been hit and miss.

Im also loving the The Young Avengers right now, and Runaways....both are steeped in classic Marvel history, especially Young Avengers!

Im waiting for the TPB of The New Avengers, written by Bendis, and Astonishing X-men, written as the X-men should be by Joss Whedon.

Other books on my marvel list include the Ultimate Hulk vs. Wolverine (which I think has still been delayed) and the Ultimate Iron Man which has been stalled mid arc (unfortunately) but written by the amazing Orson Scott Card...

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The problem with Onslaught was he broke the first rule of great drama, start slowly and build. He's this ubervillian who just appears from nowhere.

Doomsday was similar. If they'd really wanted to introduce Doomsday they could have been told of all the planets he'd destroyed. Dude is so famous that low level minons from alien cultures kill themselves to deal with him, but no one in the entire comic community has ever heard of him. They should have been finding myths about him for years before he showed up. The JLA should have been dealing with refugees from planets he'd leveled. They should have gone to those planets and found rubble but no monster.

The Borg were introduced when Romulan and Federation outposts started being stripped of all their people and technology, and that was a fair time before Q showed them off, and even that was a fair time before they showed up in the Federation proper. And that's Star Trek... B5 was BY FAR better. Clues about the big bad villians were being introduced in season 1, ditto the existence of uber-aliens. None of this, there's a god powerful foe who has had NO INFLUENCE at any point in history dispite him being so god powerful.

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Unfortunately its true...

Somebody at Marvel thought it would be a good idea to let Rob Liefield ressurect the Heroes Reborn Universe/characters...

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Did somebody mention Onslaught?

He's being brought back.

Yeah, I saw one of the books. It had Rob Liefeld art on the cover. ::indifferent

I hate Rob Liefeld's art... ::glare The guy has about 4 or 5 stock poses that he just recycles from panel to panel, and every one of his characters look exactly the same. I mean, I knew both Captain America and Thor were blond and had blue eyes, but I never realized they were actually identical twins as well! ::huh (<-sarcasm) He's easily my least favorite artist in comics. I actually get angry when I see a drawing done by him and I have nightmares where I can only draw fists the way he does (like a box with a lot of squiggles in the middle that vaguely resembles a hand).

Sorry for the rant, but as an artist, it just bugs me to no end.

So, for me at least, that's yet another reason not to bother.

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Onslaught and Rob Liefield.?! This can't be happening! The Unholy Trinity is almost complete! Two parts have already gathered. I wonder what the third aspect will be. Perhaps a movie adaptation by Uwe Boll. Or maybe they'll somehow involve the Worst Marvel Character Ever Created: Cassandra Nova. Professor X's evil-for-no-reason female doppleganger, created when he choked his evil-for-no-reason twin in the womb? What was Marvel thinking? Or were they even doing that?

I don't like Liefield's art either. Why he's still drawing comics is a mystery, because I have yet to meet anyone that actually likes his work. Yeah, he created Cable. Yeah, he created Deadpool. But what else has he brought the world? And when I read about the things he says and does, I have to wonder how he even finds work. The man seems to be in love with himself.

And even then, Deadpool was just a knockoff of a DC character. And I can't even say I liked Deadpool when Liefield was drawing him. It wasn't until Deadpool's mini-series that he became likeable. Up until then his name may as well have been "Lame Spider-Man With Katanas" And Cable was only barely a mutant...its like he was added into X-Force because they wanted a tough guy with lots of guns to be a bad-ass, and in order to justify it, they made him a low-level telekinetic mutant.

Er...sorry. I ranted. I do that when I talk about my precious, overdone, rarely written well, rarely enjoyed anymore X-Men. Its like I miss the days when the only thing I was complaining about was Jim Lee's art and the pointless storylines of the early X-Men second series run (Honestly, who gives a shit about Silver Samurai and Psylocke's past? She's a hot Asian with big knockers now, and thats all we care about. Now have her bounce around and kick high dammit, because that's about the only thing she ever has going for her.). I had Uncanny X-Men to fall back on then, but now...its like every X-Men series mocks me. I can't say I'm an avid reader (I haven't actually purchased an issue since 1998; thank you Onslaught) but everytime I look through an issue at the store I just get disappointed. I was never a fan of Whedon's writing, and everytime I've been forced to sit through Firefly or Buffy has been a test of my will. His writing is the best the X-Men has, for sure, and the best its seen in a looong time, its just not my cup o' tea.

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