World of Darkness World of Darkness: Attrition - How to Resurrect a Forum in Seven Days

[Vivi OOC]

Not long ago, OTN's player and I had a long, involved discussion about some of WoDA's more frustrating aspects, and how we could resolve them. Some of the major issues discussed were the development of the werewolf pack, the implausibly complicated meta-plot, character regrets, lack of Moderator support and follow-through, and the difficulty in integrating potential new players.

The solution we came up with in the end, having gotten a significant amount of input from him, was that a partial reboot should be proposed to you, the players.

How "partial" exactly?

We're glad you asked!

In this case, you will retain the experience you've earned with your PC (or PCs) and will get to re-create them as you see fit to incorporate changes or correct errors in either mechanics, concept, or background. They'll need to be resubmitted, of course, to make things easier to track.

But, wait. What if I don't want to play the same character this time around?

Of course, you could take this opportunity to make a completely new character instead, which would fall under the rules governing second characters. (Subtract 20 from the original PC's total XP earned, divide by 2, and follow character creation as normal. This will be added back into the Rules thread, since it seems not to be there any longer.)

What about all my fictions?! I don't want to throw away all that work!

We don't want you to, either. Nothing that's been posted in terms of fictions or threads will be deleted or removed. They will simply be relocated to an Archives section.

So, wait. If we're ditching our fictions, and rebooting our characters, what are we going to do about all the relationships and history we've developed?

This is going to be the most intensive, most cooperative part of the reboot. The players will re-write history and decide what is canon and what isn't. The werewolves might have been in a pack for the last two years. OTN might be a philosophy major. The campus might've been devastated by a huge earthquake. Frank might be engaged to a supermodel. Who knows?! It's up to the WoDA community to decide.

Okay, but why a reboot?

There are lots of reasons. I, for example, am personally very dissatisfied with the way we (the Mods) have managed to get all the meta-plot threads tangled up and knotted so that they're almost impossible to resolve and difficult to just ignore. Some people wish they'd known this or that before making the character they chose. It'll be easier to integrate anyone who wants to sign up, because we can integrate them more fluidly and give them a chance to participate actively in the re-write of canon. Mistakes the players have made, bad decisions, etc. can be repaired without resorting to breaks in continuity. The list goes on!

However much I'd like this to work, we will obviously not be imposing this change on the players without their consent. I'm setting up a poll, so please give us your input! Ask questions, vote, and make comments so that we can resolve the outstanding issues with WoDA and get things moving again!

I'm allowing votes until March 1st, to give everyone plenty of time to get their input in.

[Jeremy]

Voted- For Rebooting

I think Jeremy needs some stat reworking to be more appropriate, to the char concept and he's kinda linked up to the other supernaturals, being a story 'one trick pony', so I might rid of him and try something that seems less shoehorned in.

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Vivi OOC

Not long ago, OTN's player and I had a long, involved discussion about some of WoDA's more frustrating aspects, and how we could resolve them. Some of the major issues discussed were the development of the werewolf pack, the implausibly complicated meta-plot, character regrets, lack of Moderator support and follow-through, and the difficulty in integrating potential new players.

The solution we came up with in the end, having gotten a significant amount of input from him, was that a partial reboot should be proposed to you, the players.

*takes some of the credit for the idea...*

[Rorx]

Voted

Go for a reboot and get some of the mess untangled.

[Owns-The-Night]

Voted 'For'.

Reasons are pretty simple: I'd like to get some of the mess untangled and have the werewolf pack situation well established before present date.

[Vivi OOC]

Okay. So far, I've got 5 people voting for, and 2 against. Only 4 people have explained why they've voted as they have, counting myself since I described my personal view in my original post.

I'd really appreciate it if everyone voting would leave a comment and a brief explanation, so I know why you're opposed to the idea, or why you support it.

Thanks!

[Jess OOC]

Hmm, point.

I voted against. I did so for a few reasons:

* I'm damned near OCD on continuity, and hate seeing nearly two years of it pitched to the side.

* I'm selfish enough to want to keep my current character in her current concept, and am not sure I can do so in the event of a reset.

* I'm aware of at least one of our relatively few players (not me) who plans to leave in the event that this passes.

Regardless how this vote goes, I'll still be here, still be active as a mod/ST/whatever (something else we'll need to discuss at some point).

That's my two bits (well, three).

- Jess

[Dawn OOC]

[Disclaimer: I tried to walk a line between tactful and truthful. I may have failed. If you see something that is an insult, I didn't intend it as such. If you see something that is a criticism, I did intend it as such, to be constructive and helpful, not hateful.]

I voted against.

1) Like Jess, I don't want to see the hard work I've put into my characters regulated to 'backstory'. Someone pointed out to me that we can keep our fictions and work, but I realized that isn't entirely true. All of those fictions were set in the backdrop of how things were at the time they were written. Much of them will be rended null and void Also, I really hate the idea of going backwards to fix a problem.

2) I don't like some things I've heard about certain character types not being allowed after the reset, especially since this wasn't mentioned in the original proposal. That feels like a bait and switch to me, though I recognize it could be an oversight. However, this needs to be discussed, if this is true (I recognize it could be a rumor - this is me asking the mods flat-out if it is). If it was fine before the reset, it should be fine after.

3) And my final reason is that I don't see it saving WoDA. I see it creating more work and irritation, which would be fine if I thought it would fix the problems. This is not a solution; it's a work-around Since I don't see it actually fixing WoDA's problems, I'm against it.

In the spirit of utter honesty: I hate this idea so much that I'm one of the players who will pull one or both characters (and there are more than me). Amber will definitely go if the reset happens; I have no interest in revisiting/redoing her story. People would be welcome to keep her in their backstory. August's continued presence will depend on how things shake out.

Hence, my reasons for my vote.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

However, now that I have offered bitchery, let me offer solutions. First, let's try to fix player/character retention. If you ask people, they usually have reasons for why they left. Addressing those reasons might bring them back.

Second, recruit. I know we all do it to some degree with our friends, but has anyone posted to the WW boards or other sites that have game advertisement places? Have we attempted any of Chosen's suggestions?

Third, get some plot, run by active mods/ST. No one wants to do all the work, and telling players they're lazy if they ask for ST-driven story/plot isn't helpful. I know Jess had a great idea that relied on input from the other mods, and therefore didn't happen because Dave and Vivi have been slow about moving on things at times. The really sad thing is that we used to have plot in WoDA; in fact, it was started as OW with ST-driven plot. There were things happening right after start up; then the plot started dropping off, starting with slow responses from the mods and gradually disappearing entirely. Now, players have to come up with it to have something happen. They have to think it up, present it to the mods (often times with created NPCs and the plot's full run), gain their approval and then wait for them to do it when their turn came. All of this took time and effort, sometimes more than it should have.

I'd rather see you guys try to fix the problems in WoDA than wipe the past away. Fix the problems, then worry about whether we need to redo things.

[Vivi OOC]

Fair points, Dawn, and I'll address them.

1. I don't see it as going backwards, and the work you have done will not be relegated to "backstory." You're welcome to continue writing what will become AU stories if the majority of players decide this (the reboot) is how they'd like to proceed.

2. I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to with respect to character types not being allowed, since the only thing I've mentioned about characters or archetypes was that Sarah ended up being much more complicated than anyone anticipated, and this would give her an opportunity to try something else if she so chose. (No offense intended there, Jess, but in retrospect we, as Mods, might have made different judgment calls where she's concerned.) Unless you can provide me with more information on these rumors than you have here, I'm going to have to file this one under "I have no clue."

3. I'm sorry you feel that way. I disagree, and it's unfortunate that you plan to pull out of WoDA, but that's entirely your prerogative. The reason I presented this for a vote, and for discussion, is so that the players would have a chance to decide and debate the future of WoDA. (I would add, too, that I had a plotline completely written out, and it took over three months and prodding to get Moderator action on it... and I'm a Mod.) I don't, however, think I've ever told a player they were lazy for asking for Mod assistance or input.

I would love to simply be able to "fix" the forum, but let's be honest, here. Without drastic change, the forum will be completely dead and gone within a couple of months. The meta-plot? Impossible. It can't be salvaged at this point. (Really. It's so derailed, it actually hurts to think about it.) A significant number of IC relationships and OOC decisions? Charlie Foxtrots, even according to the players involved. Moderator action? Laughable. (Yes, I include myself in all of these, because I have definitely personally screwed up.) There have been too many delays, too many false starts, and too many would've-could've-should've plots and fictions.

All of the things you've suggested will help get the forum back on its feet, yes. Character retention, recruitment, and ST involvement are great ideas, but I honestly feel that on their own, it's too little, too late.

If the players decide this isn't what they want, that's okay. As I said previously, no one's going to force this on you guys. Unfortunately, as much as I really hate to lose players like you, Dawn, if the majority want to give this a shot, I would rather make them happy and potentially get other people interested than sacrifice their wishes for the sake of the minority. If the vote swings the other way, and people decide this is a bad idea, then we'll try something else.

Thank you for your input, and for the points you brought up. I hope this will clarify things for others who have similar questions or concerns, and I appreciate the discussion.

If anyone else has anything to say about any of this, please do! Informed voters are the best kind.

[Forge]

Also Dawn, it might be that all of Amber is continued into the possible reboot. This reboot idea as it was suggested by me that night with Vv and OTN is that it would allow you to clean out the crap that was causing issues for game progression (such as the pack formation). And allow anyone who wanted to join an ability to be partially already involved through backplotting. Much like editing someone into a photo.

At the very least, this could allow a 'fast-forward', if you will, to bypass this quagmire the game has seemed to fallen into and simply let everything be decided OOC and summarized in short posts instead of taking RL months to eek it out.

I realize I don't play in this game and don't have much of a voice, but realize the point of this isn't to wipe the slate clean so much as to erase all the doodles and keep the research.

[Vivi OOC]

I'm sorry, I did completely forget to mention you when I wrote the original post. I'd like to chalk it up to being completely insane for the past week or so, which really isn't too far from the truth. You were very much a part of the original discussion, and a huge help, so I appreciate that you took the time to comment, and I apologize profusely for neglecting to include you.

[Owns-The-Night]

Okay, to explain my own position in a little more depth (I was rushed earlier due to irl stuff)...

I have found myself so very out of touch with this character that the reboot idea proposed by Forge a little while ago seemed like sheer bloody genius at the time. It still seems to me like the only way that I can get behind OTN as a character once more.

Seeing as others are making their stronger feelings known:-

If the reboot doesn't happen, I will be retiring Owns-The-Night. He's played out and wound up in a completely different place from where I originally envisioned him and I'd really like to get him back on track. I really see a reboot as the best way to do this.

I personally feel that I have wasted a lot of time and nervous energy trying to get group-related things done in WoDA in the past only to have them get bogged down, fall apart or suffer the Ancient and Immutable Law of Sod. (I know - I'm not the only one, and I'm not implying that. This is me stating my own reaction to those efforts.) I feel that, in some cases, I've been pushing a boulder uphill just to see it roll down the other side when I got to the top, thus having to start all over again.

SO, even if the reboot does go through, I might still retire OTN and make a new character. One that is not as dependant on an integral group dynamic and is free to have whatever IC associations they like.

Whatever happens, I would still like to keep playing, especially if WoDA is getting some real Mod love.

[Sarah Dead-Wolf]

More Mod love will be had, Peter. No matter the outcome, more Mod love will be had.

[Dawn OOC]

Vivi, Damon, Jess and Peter - thanks for the comments. I do appreciate you guys taking time to add comments. There was a lot of stuff to address, so let me try to do so as coherently as possible.

"Lazy" comment - it came from Dave, then still a Mod, in another thread. It stuck with me because of how offensive I found it, and I put it out there because that seemed to be the way he did things. I've been talking about all past mod action, not just what we have here. That might seem counter-productive, but when we're talking about how and why we got here, the attitudes of the mods have played a part. I know that we're seeing promises that it is done, but they are just promises.

Forum fix - Vivi, I myself said that I'd want to give my suggestions a try before reboot. If they can't fix things, then a reboot would be a next step. I don't feel that rebooting without fixing those issues is going to save WoDA. I understand that for you, rebooting then fixing is better. I think we’ll just have to disagree. And either way, we’re going to lose out – lose good characters and players.

Fast-forward - Damon, this is actually a better idea than the reboot. It keeps the same characters, continuity, everything; we can use the advance in time to fix things. OTN refocuses on his chosen path - or moves away and another WW takes his place. Amber leverages another inch or two of stick out of her ass. I'm much more for this idea than a straight out reboot.

Peter - I agree with all of your points; it's a lot harder to hash these things out over a board where people come and go from day to day. I'm glad to hear you'll keep playing, one way or another.

Mod-love - Always a good thing.

[z021]

Actually, on the note of a fast-forward, I would be willing to give Oneca another try if that was the method chosen. Say a two-year fast forward where people can hash things out OOCly, and do some "background" fics if they want, to decide how we got from 'here' to 'there' and then start up again with more Mod-run plots and whatnot.

The plots that have gone bad and spoiled like rotten fruit can be left behind and those that were good enough to keep can be brought with the fast-forward and provide the first fodder for the restart.

[Vivi OOC]

Okay. If people decide they'd rather not do the partial reboot, that may be the next option we hash out.

[Forge]

Originally Posted By: Vivi OOC

I'm sorry, I did completely forget to mention you when I wrote the original post. I'd like to chalk it up to being completely insane for the past week or so, which really isn't too far from the truth. You were very much a part of the original discussion, and a huge help, so I appreciate that you took the time to comment, and I apologize profusely for neglecting to include you.

No need for apologies...just claiming responsibility for the love and hate associated with the idea.

[SalmonMax]

I'd like to preface this by saying that I have seen that many people involved in this have strong emotions, in some cases very strong, about how best to proceed...but that I do not. From my perspective, WODA was finally, at long last, becoming something I felt I wanted to play. All the crap was behind us (and bear in mind this is a narrow perception, encompassing pretty much just the werewolves) and we were finally ready to actually play.

Therefore, the notion of 'rebooting' was not, and is not, inimical to me, because from my perspective, we just finished booting up the first time. I feel I have basically nothing to lose. Similarly, the idea of NOT rebooting is equally fine. I am where I want to be. Status quo is good for me.

I have since been exposed to the arguments of people vehemently opposed (and a few in favor of) the reboot, and have taken the chance to re-think my position in light of those arguments, which I had not previously considered.

I'll be frank. I don't play these games to 'write stories.' I realize that's the fashionable raison d'etre for these forums, but that's not why I'm here. I think that's why I've historically had so much trouble with open world style games. The joy I get from RPG's stems from interactions with other characters...especially other PC's. I have no stomach for 'solo stories.' So the notion of players leaving is alarming to me.

The flashing forward idea may be A way out though.

[Owns-The-Night]

I have to add that I'm with Smax on that last point of his. I play these games primarily to interact with other PC's or Mod-driven NPC's. The solo fics I have, do, and will continue to scribble are mainly flavortext to set up perspective for the real meat of the game, which is the aforementioned interaction.

[Vivi OOC]

Okay. On the way to town, doing my shopping, and on the way back, I've given the idea of a fast-forward some more thought, and the more I think about it, the less workable it seems to me, personally. (This is as a player, not a Mod, so please don't take this as an official standpoint, but only a personal opinion.)

When we started WoDA, we had a lot going for us. The most important thing, second only to an awesome group of players, was the foundation we created. It was solid, accessible, and the starting point from which a thousand ideas were built. As time went on, and people left, or arrived, or took sabbaticals, or had emotional breakdowns, or what-have-you, what we were building became a lot less uniform. There were gaps in the plaster, stairways running into walls, and walls stuck way out in the middle of a field. We lost a lot, and since things had started getting so wonky, everything else we tried building on top of that was shaky, too. The idea of a fast-forward is, to me, like trying to stick an attic on top of that building with the jury-rigged, shored-up, haphazard middle. It doesn't really solve much, I think, except to keep people within their comfort zones. All of the regrets, all the potential character revisions, all of the sloppy fics, all of the bad ST and Mod calls and lack of support and follow-though, all that negative history will still be there, and I'm not convinced doing just a fast-forward past the ugly bits does anything except try to pretty up something that's well-past prettying.

I agree with Dawn's previous statement that even a partial reboot requires a lot of work, a lot of cooperation, and probably some frustration as well, but I honestly think it's worth it. I think it's absolutely worthwhile, at least for me, to want to expend time and effort on something like this to make sure it's done right, that we end up with a solid, cohesive foundation to build on again so we can do it properly this time. I don't want to half-ass this, because, honestly, that's been done to death in WoDA already.

We don't have to pretend that nothing that's happened actually happened. What happens to canon history and people and places will be its own, separate discussion if this is what the players want. I want things to make sense, to fit, and to be more accessible to the new players we should recruit. I want older players, or former players, to get involved in re-creating things. I want us to get back the energy and excitement we had when we opened the forum, and there were more avenues to explore and more opportunities for interaction and character development than we could count. I know that sounds like a lot, but I think it's totally possible.

I just don't think it's possible if we don't all want it, and if we aren't all willing to work together to get it.

If you guys don't want to do this reboot, okay. I sincerely believe it's our best shot, but I'll accept that. That's why I want to discuss these things, to get everything out in the open. It's not just your vote in the poll that matters, guys. This is your world, too, and whatever happens, you'll be an active participant in shaping it.

[Dave ST]

Quote:

Third, get some plot, run by active mods/ST.

We tried this, but I don't have the time to run everyones personal plot line for them. I'm quite sick and tired actually of being the only damn guy who seems to be capable of pushing a plot envelope.

And yes, there is laziness. Everyone wants people to do everything for them instead of getting together and working it out amongst themselves as to where they can take something in-game. Jess has been buggin' me for weeks about starting the last Topanga Test for her but I'm still waiting for her to do something with the Morgan plot-line she said she'd take part in some six-months ago.

You had the Werewolf fic Dawn. We waited 4 weeks... nothing. Two more weeks... nothing... then after half the people quit because it wasn't going anywhere you wanted to re-vamp it... and never did. Finally we all said 'to hell with it' and swept it aside.

WE have constantly shot ourselves in the foot, and that's fact. Things can be fixed, but don't try to slip away like so-and-so had nothing to do with it. I'm sorry if your tender feelings were hurt by the laziness comment but the truth is like that, it stings. You wasted 6 weeks of our time, I've wasted God only knows how many weeks of Sarah's time and Sarah's going on almost 8 months now of Morgan's time.

Everyone wants an ST to run a story for em, but only Sarah and Morgan have actually brought a story to the Mods to get done. If you'd like it so much, why aren't you guys suggesting these things so that the Mods have something to work with to keep people interested? Or is that the fault of the Mods/ST? Are they the lazy ones because they're not constantly finding new and fun ways to keep you entertained?

Fix it. That's you gotta do. The whole "well if this doesn't go my way I'll quit" attitude only adds problems and if that is your attitude, bye. Don't let the door hit ya on the way out, I wouldn't want someone with an attitude like that in my gaming world or at the table anyway. All you're gonna do is mess up my good time.

[Dawn OOC]

Yeah, we've all dropped plot here. The difference is that I'm not a mod for the game, you and Vivi and (belatedly) Jess are, and that makes you three responsible for running the game. That spirit fight was taken from me by a mod to run - which I give Vivi kudos for doing. She tried. But it still didn't happen because it wasn't pushed fast enough, and the players were sick of it by the time it was pushed.

The number of things that have been dropped in WoDA is both frustrating and annoying, starting with Crimson and going all the way to the Topanga's test and the werewolves' struggle to make a pack. We could point at any WoDA player or mod, past or present, and say, "You dropped this! Bad you!" But the mods are the 'responsible adults' here. They have to suck it up when they fail because they took the responsibility of running the forum. And just to be clear: the players aren't immune from blame, only bear somewhat less responsibility because they aren't mods. The mods are in charge; it's their game.

I don't want people to see me removing Amber as taking my character and going home. I wanted people to know what to expect if things went for the reboot. There's also the fact that this is a game and if I'm not having a good time, then what's the point? I see no fun in wiping away Amber's fictions, melding them into a history that takes some of them into account, and proceeding into a new game. That's not my thing, and I won't spend time on something not-fun that I don't think will bring about fun.

As far as telling me to 'fix it': I've offered my suggestions on how to fix it and they were declined in favor of pushing for the reboot. Guys, I honestly think the reboot idea won't work. I hope I'm wrong; I really do. I don't want to see WoDA fail, and that's why I'm out here talking instead of sitting back and watching to see what happens.

[Vivi OOC]

Please understand, Dawn, that your suggestions were not "declined in favor of pushing for the reboot." That's what this thread is for- discussion of the proposal, voting, debating, etc. If it's not what people want, whether because they felt that way originally or change their minds within the next few days, we'll try something else. This is the issue on the table right now, and if it falls through, we'll keep trying things until we find something that people can get behind as a group.

I (and everyone else, I think) can appreciate that some people feel strongly about this, and I'm glad it's stuck to this side of civility despite all those strong feelings on all sides. It's not my intent to marginalize or ignore any point of concern, question, or issue that arises with respect to the proposal, and it's never a bad idea to have alternatives and contingency plans, but I have to admit I'd really like to see the discussion stay on-topic.

[Vivi OOC]

Sorry for the double-post, but I'll say this again, since it seems to have gotten lost in the shuffle.

It would be incredibly helpful if you would qualify your vote. Explain how, briefly or in detail, you have come to your decision. This will make it easier to answer questions and respond to concerns, and, if this is not what the players want, it will be much easier to figure out what they are looking for.

Thank you!

[z021]

The third no vote was me...sorry, I forgot to throw up a post when I voted but I figured if I was going to jump in on the conversation then I should probably vote.

[Jess OOC]

Hmm. Noticed the solo-vs-group thing in a couple of posts, and figured I might as well chime in. Truth is, I enjoy both. Solo fics allow for a wonderful degree of exposition regarding a character, help to develop and shape it, breathing a remarkable amount of life into it. Group fics tie that together with the efforts of others and weave the threads into a nicely complex story.

That said, I get frustrated with group fics. I get frustrated when they sit for days or sometimes weeks on end, waiting for someone to post so that it can move forward. I think that's why you see a lot more solo fics from me: I can at least move those along apace. If we want to see more - and more successful - group fics, we need to all be more attentive and willing to commit to actually *doing* them in something like a timely fashion.

Different topic: the mods as STs. I know that in the past, the moderators haven't exactly been good STs. We've dropped balls, and failed to toss balls into the court when a game was impending. Not so good, really. All I can say is that going forward, I intend to be more of an active ST and less of a passive moderator. It's needed; without it, all the other efforts in the world won't save this game.

Up at the top of the forums, Mala kicked off a thread that stemmed from a conversation that she, Carver and I had when they were in town last Saturday. "Open ST" (or "Hybrid", or whatever it winds up called) is where I think WoDA needs to be: a game with the STs ensuring that there is plot and that timely interactions are accomplished with the PCs, but where the PCs are still free to wander off on stories of their own creation when they wish. That's actually pretty close to the original intent, though it sort of wandered off to become similar to MCoH and NPrime+10 and the other fully Open World games.

That's all I've got, and I think it's applicable regardless how the vote goes.

[Vivi OOC]

Cool, Oneca, thanks. What was your reason for voting as you did, out of curiosity?

[z021]

Like Carver, I don't like going back to go forward. I really don't think that it was backstory issues, such as the pack not already being established, that put WoDA in this rut. I think a good chunk of it has been a disconnect between what the mods wanted/expected to do (and expected players to so) and what players have shown through their posting that they really want. For the most part, you have -players- on the board now. They write, because this is the medium of the forum, but they're not (and mostly don't want to be) novelists. As such, they need a fairly constant contact/interaction with mods for things to do in the game. To use your analogy, Vv, I think that the reset is like painting the rotting house: fresh color, but the wood is still an issue, the door frame is still crooked, and the foundation is shifting and putting cracks up through the wall.

I know that some of these issues have been adressed and the efficacy of the new systems can only be determined through actually getting on with it and playing the game. For me personally, the rewrite is likes saying the last two years of writing and growing with my character just doesn't matter. If that's the case, then I'd rather just play a new character instead of rehashing what I've already done or ignoring it only to do it all over again. It's frustrating and grating to me.

The fast-forward idea is more appealing in that what I've done stays put and doesn't get swept under the rug as something unsightly, but the time gap allows us to adjust the things that aren't working and expound on the things that are. If a reset is done and I decide that I do want to play in WoDA again, it won't be with Oneca. That would just feel like I was playing the ghost of a character here; walking through an empty house. Also, as WoDA is pretty much a 'super friends' game out of the nature of the board and small number of players, I probably won't play at all. I've no interest in playing a vampire that doesn't associate with other vampires (or can only do so with NPC vampires), or really any genre that that would be the case in and I don't like werewolf. Right now, WoDA feels like a Werewolf+ game. Not saying that there's anything wrong with that, it's just not my cup of tea.

That's my change and then some on why I voted no.

[Dave ST]

No.

All the 'lingering issues' can be resolved without a 'reboot'. It's not necessary and it only makes more work for people all around.

Fact of the matter is I don't want to change Lucien, nothing about him and the things he's done or been through. If someone changes lines in Lucien's continuity and fails to inform me then here I sit with time I really don't have discussing what is okay for him and what is not instead of just writing for him.

Now, personally, if the reboot happens and I can find the time to write for my PCs then I will. I'm not on the "do it my way or I'll quit" band wagon. I'm here to write with people and have a good time and really don't care what form that comes in.

If it doesn't happen, again, who cares? I feel all the issues can be resolved without a reboot. WoD:A was meant to be an OW system, like NPrime. You write your own stories and your own adventures with or without the other players on the forum. The 'ST' element was to allow for unpredictable story sequencing where you could interact with a Moderator and resolve your PCs adventures and story lines with out having it all planned out for yourself.

This has mutated into a 'this a ST driven game' line of thinking. The quickest solution to cure this line of thinking is to remove the ST driven element for awhile (6 months - 1 year) and force the players to resolve their own issues with their fictions. At the end of a period if they are not happy with how a story turns out, they have only themselves to blame for it because as long as the Moderators are helping PCs with their fictions any negative effects or displeasure for the PC will be automatically blamed on the ST-Moderator.

Moderators will still have control of keeping PCs in line as far as what can be gained or lost as far as the fictions go, as to keep the PCs from getting out of hand in their writing (like ending up with a Prince or the President in their pocket) but by and large the writers will have to step up and actually start doing something.

Another option is the 'hand holding' method that far too many players have grown accustomed to. It's an option, but it requires a ton of time on the part of the Moderators and it makes running the forum and writing for your PC incredibly difficult (trust me). If people want the hand holding method and want the Moderators running the show in terms of fictions than the Moderator 'staff' should not have active players within WoD:A. This will allow the Moderators to apply 100% of their attention to running the forum and seeing to it that issues like this don't happen again.

[Dawn OOC]

I agree with much of what you said, Dave. I've already covered what I don't agree with, and so won't rehash it. The only thing I will say is that I think you're overstating the blame the PCs give the Mods. RPGs are games of chance. Bad stuff happens to PCs where dice are involved. Have I argued with you and Vivi before about what I see as bad rules calls? Yes, and will do so again, if I feel strongly enough about it. But the negative things that happened to my PCs because of die rolls or because other players won't post or because I won't post aren't the Mods' faults. An example of this is the pack formation; the mods had nothing to do with our PCs failure to get our asses in gear.

I do think that it will be the deathknell for WoDA if you remove mod-driven plot for 6 months. Like it or not, people do want some mod-driven story. It's the type of players you have in WoDA; most of them want some direction, and are way more likely to be active and post if there is direction. Calling it hand-holding and other derogatory terms doesn't help people enjoy WoDA, or want to particpate in games with you. That's not an attempt to be hateful to you, but when you are rude and condensending to others, surprise, they don't want to play with you. Just because someone disagrees with you about how something should be run doesn't call for putting down their stance with remarks like that. It doesn't help sway them to your side, and just creates an environment where true dialogue is impossible.

[Dave ST]

Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC

I do think that it will be the deathknell for WoDA if you remove mod-driven plot for 6 months. Like it or not, people do want some mod-driven story. It's the type of players you have in WoDA; most of them want some direction, and are way more likely to be active and post if there is direction.

A very fair point. If the Mods don't want to cut the ST driven stuff, then they won't. I'm just offering up solutions and ideas. It's not something I need to concern myself with that's for the Mods to do and in case you hadn't noticed, I've been bumped from the list. So much for a two-week grace period I suppose.

Quote:

Calling it hand-holding and other derogatory terms doesn't help people enjoy WoDA, or want to particpate in games with you. That's not an attempt to be hateful to you, but when you are rude and condensending to others, surprise, they don't want to play with you. Just because someone disagrees with you about how something should be run doesn't call for putting down their stance with remarks like that. It doesn't help sway them to your side, and just creates an environment where true dialogue is impossible.

Okay, you and I need to get something straight. Yes, I call it 'hand holding'. That's just what I call it and no I'm not going to stop. To me there's a parallel between people who want an ST driven story and aren't motivated to write on their own and holding someone's hand and leading them through their PCs adventures. It's not a bad thing it's just what I call it. Now, there are several people who are excellent authors and others who contribute very little more than two lines and less that 30 words/post. Regardless of whom I'm addressing the same term applies in my opinion, even if I'm one who suggested the 'hand holding' fic to begin with. It's the label I've applied to it and it stuck. Get offended if you like, but I'm not going to type with kiddie gloves on just so peoples' eyes don't get moist when they read a mean word or phrase.

Do I mean it to be rude? No. It's just what I call it, a label, nothing more. Simply because you perceive it as rude or derogatory doesn't mean it is. What is rude, is consistently attempting to make me out to be a guy who is only sitting around and looking for ways to be mean to people and pick on them simply because I don't use the same words that others agree with. Contrary to popular belief people I'm not here just to pick on you and call you names, well, some of you... but that's not the point.

I call it 'hand holding', you can call it 'purple' for all I care, I'm not about to call you out and correct you by telling you that I'm offended by purple and you've hurt my feelings. Cal lit what you like, I'll call it what I like. Even my PCs need a little hand holding now and again, not that I could get any because then I'd just have been writing with myself anyway.

I hope we're clear on this, I really do, because people picking through my posts and missing the message just for the sake of finding what they can be offended by next is really irritating. Anyone ever stop to think that all the nice/polite/passive aggressive bickering that goes on around here offends me? Are any of you guys prepared to change the way you type or post in an attempt to cater to how I'd like to see people post or chat? No, you're not. So don't ask me to. You are who you are and I'm sure you're wonderful and I'm not asking anyone to change a thing. So seriously, after 5 years of being here you should know how I am, how I 'talk', and how blunt and honest, and even rude, I am. It's not going to change, so seriously, shut the fuck up about it. You are you, I am me, and we're all wonderful in our own ways.

I am just as polite and kind as I am rude and irritating. If people wouldn't spend all their time focusing on the latter they might see more of the former.

I've ranted long enough...

[Dawn OOC]

I get what you're like, Dave, we've had this 'I am who I am' talk before, when you were still a mod and I was trying to talk to you about IC stuff. What it boils down to Dave is that you aren't willing to communicate. Talk, yes; communicate, no. Until you understand the difference and why it's important, then you'll go on offending people instead of getting your point across. Regardless, it's not my problem, it's yours.

And now I am curious why the other two mods didn't wait two weeks before replacing Dave (since his last few posts have made it clear that he was rapidly replaced). I know that his post made it sound like he'd be gone way longer. I'd assumed that Vivi knew his ETA, but I guess not. So why the rush?

[z021]

I'm confused....you weren't gone for the two weeks, Dave. Aren't you still a mod?

Is Declan going to be a fourth mod now?

Again, depending on how this goes all goes with the game over the next few days, it may or may not be my business at all (and that's not "my way or none at all", it's just that like you, Dave, I don't want to have Oneca's story changed or taken away and I haven't got the enthusiasm or energy left for WoDA to start over again with a new character at this point. Maybe later, but now right now), I'm just curious because I'm hearing whole lot of second and third-hand conjecture on things and I know how rumors can spin out of control.

So....what's going on? Who are the mods? How many are there? What kind of game/interactive fiction board is WoDA going to be? I won't ask about the reset because it's still got a couple of days left and a near even split on the voting.

[Dave ST]

I dunno. From what I've read of the chat logs when I said I'd need time to resolve my personal life Jess said that it was clearly a 'farewell letter' and my intentions to never return were 'perfectly clear'.

*shrugs*

I guess it is what it is.

[Vivi OOC]

Okay. Here's where I address the Mod conjecture.

Dave, you seem as if you are deliberately (and I say this as a friend) ignoring everything I have discussed with you to make yourself sound as if we (Jess and I, I assume) have done you some great disservice. We have not, as I have told you, so please, let's keep things in perspective.

When Dave and I said we would be taking some time off, apparently everyone understood it to mean that it would be an incredibly extended absence. In Dave's case, many assumed it would be permanent. Both of us were removed as Moderators, and after I tore into Jess, assuming she'd requested it, Chosen admitted he was one of those people. I came back first, and sent Chosen a very bitchy PM about my unpleasant surprise (sorry again, Chosen!), and he was nice enough to apologize for the misunderstanding and reinstate my privileges.

Ideally, as I have said to Jess when discussing the matter, I would like to have all four of us on board as Mods and/or STs, depending on how the system works out. It may not happen that way, but for the sake of transparency, I'll go ahead and say that's what I'd prefer.

If Dave chooses not to return/remain as a Moderator, it will be unfortunate, but it will be his choice. He was removed prematurely, but at the time of this posting, it seems his privileges have been reinstated. Assuming that Declan's player is confirmed as a Moderator, the four of us will start discussing what our specific responsibilities will be, and make that information public so that we can be held accountable.

However the vote ends, we'll figure out how to proceed based on your input. There isn't going to be an overwhelming majority either way, so we may need to find a compromise of some sort.

[Jess OOC]

What Vivi said; she covered it pretty damned well.

[Dawn OOC]

Vivi, thanks for the answer.

[Dave ST]

Jess, Vivi and myself were supposed to have a chat. That's what was agreed on.

I'm still waiting on that happen.

[Vivi OOC]

And you're going to be waiting, Dave, until such time as the four of us (per the discussion with Jess that you read after the fact) can have that chat.

You said earlier that you hate passive-aggressive behavior, so I'm going to point out that that's basically what you're doing. It isn't productive, it isn't helpful, and it isn't doing anything positive for you.

Additionally, as I stated in my previous post, assuming that Declan's player is confirmed as a Mod, we will all be sitting down to talk about the things people have posted here, and what we will all be responsible for doing in WoDA. If you have any other issues, I'd ask that you please take them up with us privately, instead of contributing snarky comments to a discussion about the direction the forum will be taking.

Please. This isn't accomplishing anything productive.

[Jess OOC]

By the by, folks: this is the last day for voting on the reboot concept. If you've been holding off to the last minute... well, this is the last minute.