Aberrant RPG - Help me wrap my brain around the Matter Manip.

[Tinker]

I dislike the idea of magic in my games unless it falls under Clarke's Third Law. That's why I enjoy the Aberrant world...it assumes scientific reason exists for even the most inexplicable powers. But every now and then I have problems with the core rules and I feel I have to tweek them if I can't get them to fall into a logical reasoning.

Matter Creation is fine for me as-is. I would prefer a payment cost for permanence other than permanent willpower, but I've manage to shoehorn my mind around a concept that allows for it. The idea is that the MC really only creates a tangible illusion of whatever he "creates". He bundles energy into a tangible matrix that reacts in predictable preset ways. For example the picture in the manual is of a hand grenade. If you pull the pin of a hand grenade it will cause explosive damage after a short period of time. The damage inflicted isn't that of a real grenade because what is created isn't real, it's just a tangible idea, like a computer program. After an set duration the self-contained power required to keep the matrix intact is spent and the "object" disappears as the energy disperses. Buy spending a permanent point of willpower the MC "maxes out" his power in a particularly controlled way, in effect manually assembling all the necessary molecules required to achieve the same conditions as his "tangible idea". (It still isn't a "grenade", but its an actual object that works as much as possible based on the MC's capabilities.) The result of the strain causes some permanent minor brain damage, thus the drop in willpower. Presumably at a higher level the strain would becomes less, but the power cost more.

So that I can live with. But Molecular Alteration is different. As I understand it, the forces used are to alter the physical structure of matter. I have no problem with that; Energy and matter are the same thing; Given enough power the state can change the same as physical properties of matter can change. (Water from liquid to solid to gaseous, we can do all those things with our puny human applications of energy.)

What I CANNOT wrap my brain around is how a physical change can simply APPEAR to happen with the application of energy. Transform lead to gold? Sure...given enough power to shift a few subatomic particles, I'll buy that. But I don't see how you can say the transformation would reverse with the lack of power. If anything I'd think it'd require a like amount of energy to reverse. If it's gold it's gold; It doesn't just SEEM like gold, it IS gold...right? That's why it only works on inanimate objects; You can't create Life, that's a particular form of energy not quantum in nature. I mean, if I turned a submarine into a sandwich and ate it... I consumed the sandwich right? I gained energy from the calories etc. It doesn't just revert to a few hundred tons of metal in my stomach, right? For a while I thought maybe I manipulate my MC theory to apply...say the sub doesn't REALLY turn into a sandwich, it just GOES AWAY for a length of time, transported to some alternate reality, and in it's place is what appears to be a sandwich created in the same way as if from MC. Then at the end of the duration, the real sub returns. But there are several problems with this; 1.) What condition does the sub return in? Is it physically altered to mimic the actions on the illusionary sandwich? Ie: All mangled and chewed? 2.) WHERE does it return? In the place it was taken, or the place wherever I might have taken the sandwich? Ie: My stomach. 3. Simply teleporting away the sub would take a tremendous amount of energy, plus I'd have to create a transmuted version (ie: the sandwich) ala MC...so at the minimum the energy cost should be more than creating a sandwich with MC. And if damage mimics then add in the cost it would take to physically mangle a sub. And if the sandwich is smaller/simpler than the sub...why do I have to pay MORE to replace the larger/complicated sub as stated in the rules for required successes for size/complexity change? Should be easier to make a mental construct of a sandwich as stated in the MC rules. 4. Finally, assuming all those questions are answered, WHAT happens if I DO spend a point of permanent willpower? The sandwich is accounted for under my MC theory...but what happens to the sub? Is it reduced to subatomic particles and scattered to the solar winds? It can't simply cease to exist as matter or energy, because neither can be truly destroyed only altered.

Given my personal observation of how the Universe works, this all seems way too complicated. It'd be much simpler and economical energy-wise to simply alter the molecular structure of the damn sub!

So I'm stuck. I can't wrap my brain around how the power works as stated. Can anyone give me a logical theory? Or a logical/balanced alternate set of rules with permanence? The advantage increase duration doesn't seem to apply to package deals, nor do the rules say you can "maintain" the transformation; The time-limit is fixed. Increased quantum costs for the effect I can live with. Double the successes needed maybe? Make it a solitary power like MC, separate from the MM suite? Has to stay level a 3 power, can't increase the quantum level...those are already maxed; Any more and it skirts Mastery, which I assume is balanced with the rest of the continent-altering powers at level 4.

Oh, and while I'm at it; Anyone see a problem with purchasing the Template Extra advantages for MM and MC without the need for an actual physical example if the character also has Eidetic Memory and prior experience with the object in question? Sort of a "blueprint on file" situation. Of course the stated memory restrictions would apply. Ie: Couldn't do it as quickly from memory; Have to succeed a memory roll.

[Josh Brickman]

Some powers in Abby are Perm, some are not. The ones that are not (MC, Forcefield, Growth, Gravity Manip, etc) require constant infusions of energy.

MM is an odd duck in that some of it's techniques are perm (i.e. simply moving around or altering molecules), but others are not. Take your lead into gold example. You transform it, but without paying Willpower, whatever you did to those three protons isn't stable. They'll either come back (say shift back from neutrons) or it will emerge that they never went away (more likely IMHO). You weren't transforming lead, you were just giving it all the properties of gold. A man can force water into many shapes, but take your hands away and it will still go flat.

Originally Posted By: Tinker

Oh, and while I'm at it; Anyone see a problem with purchasing the Template Extra advantages for MM and MC without the need for an actual physical example if the character also has Eidetic Memory and prior experience with the object in question? Sort of a "blueprint on file" situation. Of course the stated memory restrictions would apply. Ie: Couldn't do it as quickly from memory; Have to succeed a memory roll.

Even with Eidetic Memory I don't think it works that way. First of all, that's not what the extra says. Letting you create anything you can remember sounds like generic MC. Second of all, the whole point of copying something is so that you don't have to remember it.

[Warren Verona]

You're over thinking it.

Coming from me, that's saying something.

[metaphysician]

Another idea for Matter Manip is that temporary alteration that would wear off don't revert when their duration ends: they break down. Whatever you do isn't stable, so you do transform the substance, but not in a way that lasts sans quantum energy. After the quantum fades, the bonds break and alter in unpredictable and destructive manners, kind of like the "destroy matter" slot.

[jameson (ST)]

I think we all know it's a game balance issue. Learn to love it or change it in your TT game.

PC (to GM): I have Molecular Manipulation so I'm going to spend the next week making diamonds and gold, can I now have Resources 5 for no experience?

GM: Please get your head out of you @$$ and be serious...

[Tinker]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Raphael Bradford

I think we all know it's a game balance issue. Learn to love it or change it in your TT game.

That's what I'm asking for...how would you change it so that it's balanced? I seem to remember a description for Transform (other) in another RPG that said, more or less, if you can do enough "damage" to kill the person (and remove them from the game world) then there is no reason why you shouldn't just turn them into a frog instead. (AD&D? Champions? Not important I guess...) My point is that it's very cheap to utterly destroy in this game, but WAY expensive to create via powers. Now if I wanted to, I have the rules I need to have a super-fast character who happens to be a mechanic and with access to an Auto-Zone, plus the resources for the parts, who could assemble an engine using Quick Tasks and install it in a car body and then ZOOM! I'm off in my new car... But that's a lot of trouble for a car. Be cheaper to just buy another couple of resource dots and say "He goes out and buys a car. A red one." Ok, fine. Easier, cheaper point wise... the only thing that doesn't fit is the character design. Batman could do this...Rorshach couldn't. (Ok, I'm mixing universes... can't think of a D.C. character atm that has power but no money. Didja know they're filming "The Watchman" movie? Cool...)

Anyway, like I said: I wanted a way to "fix" this so I can use the power as I think it should work, or be able to change my understanding of how the power would work. Just saying "the change is unstable" doesn't make sense in a non-magical universe. Unstable things fall apart, or explode...but they don't revert back to a previous form. (An unstable desk doesn't turn back into a tree...it just breaks.) Lacking the original source (the creators) I turned to the closest legitimate body I have available for a ruling...other fans. I always HAD the option of doing it my way, I just wanted to "do it right". (Yeah I'm over-thinking it. And the guy that builds ships in a bottle COULD just built the ship and put it in a fake-bottom bottle...but it's not quite the same, is it?) But thanks for the input anyway.

[Courier]

This is easiest to do during character creation.

Example: Bob the Nova with MC has 5 dots of Resources and 5 dots of Eufiber. He defines both of them as things he has created permanently over the months since he went nova. He also buys a few dots in gadget for the few that he has on hand to represent the things he can create and take with him.

The ST tells him that he'll only beable to switch from one gadget to another between stories (not scenes), and if he can't wait that long he'll have to pay perm willpower.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted By: metaphysician

Another idea for Matter Manip is that temporary alteration that would wear off don't revert when their duration ends: they break down. Whatever you do isn't stable, so you do transform the substance, but not in a way that lasts sans quantum energy. After the quantum fades, the bonds break and alter in unpredictable and destructive manners, kind of like the "destroy matter" slot.

Hmm. So you're saying anything that you transform is used up as part of the transformation? Like using wood to create fire, you end up with ashes. That sounds a bit magic-ish (components) but I think I see what you mean: Breaking down molecules to use as raw material for other objects...when energy is gone, object falls apart. (That would be a neat concept to role-play... the MM could only create objects that he had the raw material available for (ie wood-to-furniture) But the reason wood turns to ash is energy is taken FROM the reaction...in this case you're adding energy to it. I would think that the "justification" of the original object being destroyed would be that it contributed energy to the temporary object, but that would actually make the power cheaper, wouldn't it? (Thats why magic users use servants instead of spells for casual jobs, it's cheaper!)

I've got no problem with the rearranging molecules to form new objects, but I don't understand why they wouldn't be stable after the energy was put in to the final shape. (It takes lots of energy to harvest lumber, then shape the wood to a desk...but once it's created, it's stable until you add MORE energy to it by breaking it apart or burning it. A character with super-speed and wood-crafting still has to pay Q for using his Fast Tasks, but nobody tells him he can't keep his knick-knack shelf after the scene.)

I still think if you're willing to pay more energy to create the same object as to destroy it, the change should have some lasting effect...I just don't know a fair create/destroy point ratio. But at least I have a new character concept, Thanks!

[Tinker]

Originally Posted By: Courier

The ST tells him that he'll only be able to switch from one gadget to another between stories (not scenes), and if he can't wait that long he'll have to pay perm willpower.

Ok, but again your talking about how to work the mechanics of the game. Sure he could have created a car in the past so now he has it available, but you're explaining the origin of the points he spent on Resources. If he was an inventor and I was trying to find rules to fit his gadgets...well, I'd uses Gadgets I guess. But I THINK you're saying something to the effect of trading the Advantage: Permanency for several Disadvantages of (in another rpg) Increased Casting time. IE the Object doesn't stay unless you spent far more time/energy on it than you'd find in a scenario. Ok, but does that mean he can't access MM during the game? Then he's not using MM...he's using Gadgets. (And of course gadgets aren't permanent either.) Argh.

[Courier]

Ok, but does that mean he can't access MM during the game?

Of course he can use it, he either makes temp objects or he spends willpower. Basically it takes a lot of work to make something perm and you have to pay for it somehow.

Don't confuse "MC the power" with "MC the theme". Resources, gadgets, etc are all in theme, but there's no such thing as a free lunch. You want something, you pay for it, and you have lots of nova points to build that sort of thing so you can afford it.

[Mr Fox]

I can definitely understand your desire to find a balanced way to pay for MC permanency other than permanent willpower. If you figure out how, let me know.

As for the concept, I think what people are dancing around is that when you are using MM or MC you are taking your quantum energy and using it to create/manipulate the position of the atoms and that energy is only going to keep them in those positions for so long before the the energy dissipates and the atoms fall apart. I can understand you view that it isn't logical that they would go back to their former state. That doesn't really make sense. I think I would work it in my game so that it after you withdraw your energy it falls apart in to a worthless pile of grey goo. Using that logic I would also probably allow maintenance on objects created or manipulated, but I would also consider it to be something you were concentrating on and once you let go of holding it in that shape it would dissolve. That would allow it to make logical sense, but also avoid the balance issue with players MC/MMing their way into vast fortunes or permanently having anything they wanted with no cost.

Another option is to allow your player to spend experience to buy the item they are creating just like they were buying it as a background dot/dots. I've done this in my game and it prevents balance issues without turning the character into a drooling zombie with no will.

In the real world it takes a star exploding to create heavy elements, that is a massive expenditure of energy. Someday if we ever master fusion it might be possible to create gold from lesser elements, but that is a long way off still, but even that would take massive energy, far more than it would cost to just go mine the gold.

[jameson (ST)]

I honestly think it would be less of an issue if the cost to permify something was fixed. Yes it costs 1 Perm Willpower but that 1 point could cost anywhere from 1 to 9 experience to recouperate. Oddly I would be in favor of changing the mechanic to a variable Tain gain.

1 dot of temp taint for a single small simple item (a mellee weapon or a jewl)

2 dots for multiple small items, a single medium simple item or a small complex item (an MP3 player, a radio, shed, a bunch of melee weapons, a 10' rowboat, a shed/shack)

3 dots for ... etc etc

Those costs would buy you 6 months/dot in the power (so MC 2 would get a knife that lasted a year at the cost of a temp taint)

Then have an extra ... 3 taint for true permanency.

[Courier]

For a Terat those costs might be considered an advantage.

[jameson (ST)]

*shrug* I don't see why they shouldn't

I agree with Tinker that it's odd that Novas can cause wanton destruction with the flick of a wrist but to create something lasting required, very nearly, exponentially more power.

Maybe those with MM and MC ought to be able to pay for permanency with permant points out of their qunatum pool? The problem is we're altering fundamental mechanics of the game and generally speaking that's usually best done easrly

[Courier]

I agree with Tinker that it's odd that Novas can cause wanton destruction with the flick of a wrist but to create something lasting required, very nearly, exponentially more power.

That's like RL. Killing a dog, or a man, or wreaking a piece of art is easy. Creating one is much harder and takes more time and effort.

Maybe those with MM and MC ought to be able to pay for permanency with permant points out of their qunatum pool?

That works pretty well, in many ways better than what we have now. 3 qp would be 9 exp, a high cost but at least it's set. Of course we could also just set an exp cost. Say 3, 6, or 9.

[jameson (ST)]

Originally Posted By: Courier

I agree with Tinker that it's odd that Novas can cause wanton destruction with the flick of a wrist but to create something lasting required, very nearly, exponentially more power.

That's like RL. Killing a dog, or a man, or wreaking a piece of art is easy. Creating one is much harder and takes more time and effort.

I find it amusing you made this argument. I find it equally difficult in real life to summon a gun as it is to shoot plasma from my eyes. But hey, your milage may vary ...

Seriously though, we're not talking real life, Novas are supposed to be gods, or damn near. Creation should be at least similarly easy rather than damn near impossible.

Originally Posted By: Courier

Maybe those with MM and MC ought to be able to pay for permanency with permant points out of their qunatum pool?

That works pretty well, in many ways better than what we have now. 3 qp would be 9 exp, a high cost but at least it's set. Of course we could also just set an exp cost. Say 3, 6, or 9.

Your point is valid that you can basically convert anything to a Experience cost. That said I don't like the idea of a character expending experience as though they were tangible points.

Yes it's an accounting PitA but I think it makes for better role playing for the character to go through the process of burning out some of their potential and having to regain that capability with further training. Spending the experience would eliminate the "middle man" so-to-speak and that's not what RPing is all about.

[Courier]

I find it amusing you made this argument. I find it equally difficult in real life to summon a gun as it is to shoot plasma from my eyes...

Earlier today I stepped on a hornet. Months ago my dog killed a rodent. Nukes came before nuclear power. Whatever the technology, it's easier to break things than to build them.

I think it makes for better role playing for the character to go through the process of burning out some of their potential and having to regain that capability with further training.

That's a point. Call it one, two, or three points of quantum pool then.

[jameson (ST)]

I think I'll agree to disagree with you on how easy a Nova should be able to create something ...

As for the costs I think we can agree there, it's simple and elegant and it has an in-game effect as well. A nova feels tired after spending quantum (proportional to the expenditure) imagine what it must feel like for them to burn out a portion of thier capacity, even if it can eventually be recovered that's got potential right there.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Raphael Bradford

Maybe those with MM and MC ought to be able to pay for permanency with permant points out of their qunatum pool? The problem is we're altering fundamental mechanics of the game and generally speaking that's usually best done easrly

I think I can accept the transformed item losing cohesion and turning into loose atoms, but the idea of a character also having to (in effect) take damage to use his/her power, well that might make for an interesting rp angle, but I'd hate to impose that sort of thing based on a player's power selection. How about splitting the difference? Instead of burning out the nova's quantum pool, it ties it up instead.

Ex:If a MC/MM starts with a quantum pool of 30 and creates a nice ride using 3qp, instead losing his wheels and having to (basically) roll the dice again (s)he can opt to invest part of his pool potential, and simply live with having a 27pt pool for however long he wants/needs the car. I would think this is fair in game balance; Normally an object would last from 1-5 hours (depending on power level) during which time the nova could regain 2-10 quantum points (taking it easy) or 4-20 pts if they completely relaxed. Using this system the nova cannot regain those points until after he loses the object, plus time taken to rest. Less interruptions for dice roles, more flow to the story while keeping characters from building hoards. And if you need a rational, you could say the nova is "diverting residual quantum into maintaining the transformation", ie: the recharging quantum is channeled directly to the object instead of building up in the nova.

I wonder if devoting points to "maintain" certain powers would be unbalancing? Note: I'm talking about powers/advantages that "last for a scene" and are non-combative, like Mega-Appearance: Mr. Nobody. Rather than starting every scene with players telling what powers they are going to activate, if it's part of the character just to note: "Unless otherwise stated, the player has 1pt from her pool invested and is completely inconspicuous." or "Unless otherwise stated, this paranoid git has 1 point invested and is constantly using his "Creepy Feeling" power. (Or Immovable Object/Fast Sense/whatever). You never see Spider-man with his "Spidey-sense" turned off...it's not like he can decide he'd rather be a bit faster for few hours instead. Just an idea, what do you guys think? Oh, and about the MC/MM most especially.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted By: Courier

That's like RL. Killing a dog, or a man, or wreaking a piece of art is easy. Creating one is much harder and takes more time and effort.

There is something fundamentally disturbing about that idea. It should never be "easy" to kill a dog...much less a man, in real life. I would think THAT would cost a human some permanent willpower (or karma, or bit of their Soul maybe). And all it takes to create life is a LACK of willpower (or a condom)! But I digress...

[Courier]

I would think THAT would cost a human some permanent willpower (or karma, or bit of their Soul maybe).

Humanity points I would think.

[Rorx]

A very simplistic take on this old thread.

When you MM an object into a different state the Qunatum you put into it shifts the changes to the object into a bi-stable state, as is seen in any number of examples of molecules and atomic states in RL. At the end of the standard duration the quantum that was holding it in this higher energy state is used up and the object returns to its original state. Any damage to the object in it's altered state should not remain on the original object, unless it has been Disintegrated or similar in which case the quantum field of the object in both states could be considered to have been destroyed.

As for the cost to make object changes permanant, I'm in favour of taking it as either a long-term or permanant reduction in the Qpts of the character, it makes more since to me than a Willpower cost.

[Rorx]

A very simplistic take on this old thread.

When you MM an object into a different state the Qunatum you put into it shifts the changes to the object into a bi-stable state, as is seen in any number of examples of molecules and atomic states in RL. At the end of the standard duration the quantum that was holding it in this higher energy state is used up and the object returns to its original state. Any damage to the object in it's altered state should not remain on the original object, unless it has been Disintegrated or similar in which case the quantum field of the object in both states could be considered to have been destroyed.

As for the cost to make object changes permanant, I'm in favour of taking it as either a long-term or permanant reduction in the Qpts of the character, it makes more since to me than a Willpower cost.

[SalmonMax]

When I was toying with a MM concept, I tried to "explain" the temporary nature of it by hypothesizing it as a sort of rubber band effect. When you use the power to change the nature of something, it creates a sort of 'tension.' When the power expires, the matter reverts to its original form. Add energy, matter changes; subtract energy, it returns to its "ground state."

I found this sufficient. My explanation for MC is a bit more involved.

In both cases I decided that to change the transformed state of the changed matter would cause similar changes when the matter changed back. So if you turn a mass of steel into an equivalent mass of pie...and then eat the pie...my explanation required that each transformed atom and molecule be "followed" as it passed through your system. It'd change back to steel eventually, with potentially damaging results to you.

Of course...I never actually conceptualized a system for dealing with that. It was just background fluff for the axiom "Don't eat it."

However, I feel compelled to point out that all this work is really for nothing. MM and MC are magic. I know it hurts, but it's true. It's -magic-. All the hoops we jump through to explain it are for naught...just adding layers of complexity that still boil down to "It's magic." NOTHING can make these powers make sense according to physical law as we understand them. Eventually we will have to throw up our hands and say it's magic.

Now, I like jumping through hoops up to a point, so I enjoy the exercise of creating explanations. But I think it's important to always keep that realization in the back of our heads that it IS magic, and all the explanations in the world won't change that. Do it for fun...not because it'll actually work.

[SalmonMax]

When I was toying with a MM concept, I tried to "explain" the temporary nature of it by hypothesizing it as a sort of rubber band effect. When you use the power to change the nature of something, it creates a sort of 'tension.' When the power expires, the matter reverts to its original form. Add energy, matter changes; subtract energy, it returns to its "ground state."

I found this sufficient. My explanation for MC is a bit more involved.

In both cases I decided that to change the transformed state of the changed matter would cause similar changes when the matter changed back. So if you turn a mass of steel into an equivalent mass of pie...and then eat the pie...my explanation required that each transformed atom and molecule be "followed" as it passed through your system. It'd change back to steel eventually, with potentially damaging results to you.

Of course...I never actually conceptualized a system for dealing with that. It was just background fluff for the axiom "Don't eat it."

However, I feel compelled to point out that all this work is really for nothing. MM and MC are magic. I know it hurts, but it's true. It's -magic-. All the hoops we jump through to explain it are for naught...just adding layers of complexity that still boil down to "It's magic." NOTHING can make these powers make sense according to physical law as we understand them. Eventually we will have to throw up our hands and say it's magic.

Now, I like jumping through hoops up to a point, so I enjoy the exercise of creating explanations. But I think it's important to always keep that realization in the back of our heads that it IS magic, and all the explanations in the world won't change that. Do it for fun...not because it'll actually work.

[Rorx]

Yep, it's magic, just like all the other powers in all the games we've ever played!

It's just some have more internal consistency than others...::biggrin

[Rorx]

Yep, it's magic, just like all the other powers in all the games we've ever played!

It's just some have more internal consistency than others...::biggrin

[SalmonMax]

Definitely true.

[SalmonMax]

Definitely true.

[El'Jinn Uu]

Dun't know you two. I had no choice as a GM, I've HAD to find a way to make all the powers in All the RPG's (Including Magic) make sence, otherwise, Players may think I'm throwing stuff (Sinarios, tech, NPC super villians, rule of physics) at them adhock, just to get the effects I wanted.

They may not always "Call me onit", but when they do, like for instance in a seemingly hard to beleive event, I like to let them know that their in trouble because of Real world law & physics...and not my own personal Hatered of them...

Which they know I have of them .

As such, I chose a "Rubber Band" effect similar to Salmon Max. But I ultimately won't EVER say it just Ultimately happens "Cuz it's magic"! Otherwise, NO order can truly exist as, anyone could just say "I want this to happen"...and it does.

The basis of and ordered reality must, itself be ordered. Just like the rules of physics stating "Something can Not be made from Nothing" and "Energy is never lost, just transformed into another state", Order can not be created from Chaose...Period!

I agree with Tinker that the power doesn't work, and realisticaly should be permanent, as That is more in line with what Matter Manipulation should be...The MA technique is more like the "Reality Distortion" powers in comic books.

And I don't see it's being permanent as being much of a problem since it shouldn't have as many properties as MA gives. Instead Transmuted matter should remain constant in mass, loosing or gaining only a little, based on such success...and only then an increased QP cost. Plus this Technique should be rather costly. It should also take extended time (reduce by allocated successes).

But given that this is Not the case, I just added this as a reasonable Technique', and Kept that MA ability, explaining it through brainy physics (again similar to what you said Salmon). It's worked just fine for me to date.

[El'Jinn Uu]

Dun't know you two. I had no choice as a GM, I've HAD to find a way to make all the powers in All the RPG's (Including Magic) make sence, otherwise, Players may think I'm throwing stuff (Sinarios, tech, NPC super villians, rule of physics) at them adhock, just to get the effects I wanted.

They may not always "Call me onit", but when they do, like for instance in a seemingly hard to beleive event, I like to let them know that their in trouble because of Real world law & physics...and not my own personal Hatered of them...

Which they know I have of them .

As such, I chose a "Rubber Band" effect similar to Salmon Max. But I ultimately won't EVER say it just Ultimately happens "Cuz it's magic"! Otherwise, NO order can truly exist as, anyone could just say "I want this to happen"...and it does.

The basis of and ordered reality must, itself be ordered. Just like the rules of physics stating "Something can Not be made from Nothing" and "Energy is never lost, just transformed into another state", Order can not be created from Chaose...Period!

I agree with Tinker that the power doesn't work, and realisticaly should be permanent, as That is more in line with what Matter Manipulation should be...The MA technique is more like the "Reality Distortion" powers in comic books.

And I don't see it's being permanent as being much of a problem since it shouldn't have as many properties as MA gives. Instead Transmuted matter should remain constant in mass, loosing or gaining only a little, based on such success...and only then an increased QP cost. Plus this Technique should be rather costly. It should also take extended time (reduce by allocated successes).

But given that this is Not the case, I just added this as a reasonable Technique', and Kept that MA ability, explaining it through brainy physics (again similar to what you said Salmon). It's worked just fine for me to date.

[Vivi OOC]

Actually, part of the benefit of saying something is "magic" is that it doesn't have to make sense, as long as it's consistent. In fantasy RPGs, for example, that's reason and explanation all rolled up into one little word. I remember a DM who, during an argument around about dragon flight, their physiology, etc., just nodded and said, "Okay. You're right. It violates the laws of physics." When that same player's character tried to cast a spell in their next battle, he failed. When he died as a result, and the player made some off-hand comment about just going to the temple to be resurrected, the DM informed him of the impossibility of casting spells or bringing someone back to life once they're dead. "You were right. Those things violate the laws of physics."

For me, the problem isn't calling something "magic," or "quantum," or anything else. To me, the important thing is maintaining internal consistency in the setting.

[Vivi OOC]

Actually, part of the benefit of saying something is "magic" is that it doesn't have to make sense, as long as it's consistent. In fantasy RPGs, for example, that's reason and explanation all rolled up into one little word. I remember a DM who, during an argument around about dragon flight, their physiology, etc., just nodded and said, "Okay. You're right. It violates the laws of physics." When that same player's character tried to cast a spell in their next battle, he failed. When he died as a result, and the player made some off-hand comment about just going to the temple to be resurrected, the DM informed him of the impossibility of casting spells or bringing someone back to life once they're dead. "You were right. Those things violate the laws of physics."

For me, the problem isn't calling something "magic," or "quantum," or anything else. To me, the important thing is maintaining internal consistency in the setting.

[El'Jinn Uu]

Never heard of nothing in Physics that made resurrection impossable, just technicaly (medicaly) challenging as all Heck. But I do agree with you that at some point that Uber Physics Major needs to shut up and just play the Darn game.

I'm Judæo-Christian, but even I don't believe (Despite others asumptions to te contrary) in magic. So sometime I have had a hard time letting the Physics ball "Drop".

Me saying "It's all physics, all the time, always" is a surefire way to end a game. In fanticy games, I agree...don't generaly debate such things, just debate the DM/ST/GM's stupid rulings, and let the "okay enuff" ones slide.

However.... Tinker does have a good point here, Aberrant is more SCI than fi, showing that peeps perceived general perceptions as to "what is possable in physics" is wrong. Physics can't do Paradoxes, but it Can do everything else that magic can do... Which is just about everything. And his question is a good one that many of us aren't "Just gonna let go of", at least untill we have a good answere to.

Read "Good enuff answere to!" And I think all of us here have given such a thing....Other 2+Years

[El'Jinn Uu]

Never heard of nothing in Physics that made resurrection impossable, just technicaly (medicaly) challenging as all Heck. But I do agree with you that at some point that Uber Physics Major needs to shut up and just play the Darn game.

I'm Judæo-Christian, but even I don't believe (Despite others asumptions to te contrary) in magic. So sometime I have had a hard time letting the Physics ball "Drop".

Me saying "It's all physics, all the time, always" is a surefire way to end a game. In fanticy games, I agree...don't generaly debate such things, just debate the DM/ST/GM's stupid rulings, and let the "okay enuff" ones slide.

However.... Tinker does have a good point here, Aberrant is more SCI than fi, showing that peeps perceived general perceptions as to "what is possable in physics" is wrong. Physics can't do Paradoxes, but it Can do everything else that magic can do... Which is just about everything. And his question is a good one that many of us aren't "Just gonna let go of", at least untill we have a good answere to.

Read "Good enuff answere to!" And I think all of us here have given such a thing....Other 2+Years

[Psilord]

On the whole MM and MC question...

Consider that shooting plasma out of your eyes to destroy a thing isn't a direct manipulation of the thing, just the plasma. Its easier to destroy in this case because your creating a very transitory effect, the plasma; the destruction that follows isn't created by you, but is instead a natural effect of being hit by plasma whatever its source.

MM, OTOH, is a direct effect of your power and to keep it from being transitory (i.e. made permanent)requires changing its sub-quantum template (blueprint). This sub-quantum template, being more a factor of a psion than a nova, is difficult to change and tends to remanifest itself via a kind of historical inertia thus causing the items to revert to their original forms. A nova can, thru a feat of willpower (spending a perm point) cause a re-write of the sub-quantum template as reality responds to his thoughts.

MC suffers the same problem in creating a new template upon which the quantum forces of the universe can attach themselves to form the object.

Atleast thats the best response I can come up with.

[Psilord]

On the whole MM and MC question...

Consider that shooting plasma out of your eyes to destroy a thing isn't a direct manipulation of the thing, just the plasma. Its easier to destroy in this case because your creating a very transitory effect, the plasma; the destruction that follows isn't created by you, but is instead a natural effect of being hit by plasma whatever its source.

MM, OTOH, is a direct effect of your power and to keep it from being transitory (i.e. made permanent)requires changing its sub-quantum template (blueprint). This sub-quantum template, being more a factor of a psion than a nova, is difficult to change and tends to remanifest itself via a kind of historical inertia thus causing the items to revert to their original forms. A nova can, thru a feat of willpower (spending a perm point) cause a re-write of the sub-quantum template as reality responds to his thoughts.

MC suffers the same problem in creating a new template upon which the quantum forces of the universe can attach themselves to form the object.

Atleast thats the best response I can come up with.