Aberrant RPG - Elemental Anima: Movement

[Weft]

Say I buy AE:Movement for fire. How would that technique work?

[phoenix]

Like Flight, but with a jet of fire behind the nova like a comet's tail.

[Weft]

Ah. I suppose that should have been obvious. Sure feels like it. ::blush

But what about something insubstantial, like shadow?

[Alex Green]

Not all Elemental Anima's have a movement technique. That would probably be one of them.

[Blue Thunder]

Shadow Movement could still work...but maybe only on a dark night or in a poorly lit room with a lot of darkness.

[Alex Green]

Fire (explosions and what not) can push things around. Ditto Air. Even ditto water & Earth (although Earth doesn't fly, it mudslides).

But no amount of Shadow is going to move stuff.

[SkyLion]

You must not read that many comics then.... There have at least a few characters who can create solid or semi solid shadow forms. There are a couple right off the top of my head in DC and probably in Marvel as well (powers names are shadowcasting, darkforce generation etc.) not to mention the WoD vampiric discipline known an Obtenabration...calling forth the essence of the Abyss to form tentacles, shadowstep, smother and drown people or summoning shadowbeasts... ::devil There is no reason that a nova couldn't define a shadow based (non-transmit) movement powers...just one example would be an iceman like shadow-slide that disspipates after he passes. Remember that novas break all the rules about what we think is possible...even the Shroud power has an extra for semi-solidity and I also refer you to th NPC Tenebrae from Aberrant Worldwide...

[Alex Green]

We are talking about Elemental Anima. If he wants Darkforce or something else that doesn't exist in nature then he needs Elemental Mastery.

[SkyLion]

We are talking about Elemental Anima. If he wants Darkforce or something else that doesn't exist in nature then he needs Elemental Mastery.

,,

Oh. Whoops. My mistake...he could still ride existing shadows though, through wierd nova-ness...

[Alex Green]

Maybe... ::confused

Increase/Decrease would rock since he could with enough succ turn off all lights in an area as a maint power. It'd be like Shroud on steriods.

The problem is I don't see what else he could do with it. Shadows have no physical or energy aspect and can't do damage or shield or whatever. I'm not sure there is anything to build on until you get to Mastery.

[SkyLion]

You are forgetting that we are dealing with a comic-book like world here. Semi-solid shadows are a part of shroud also, and a nova could define all kinds of things as shadow sfx based. Again I refer you to Tenebrae from Ab WW...

,,

other ideas, shadow-wings, shadow blasts, shadow walls etc. Remember that the basic power (shaping/wall/blast etc.) are all standardized...the nova is free to define them as they choose including being "shadow-based"

[Alex Green]

You are forgetting that we are dealing with a comic-book like world here.

Meaning that nova powers work that way.

Semi-solid shadows are a part of shroud also...

If the shroud is defined (for example) as "a blinding cloud of sand" then that works well. Ditto if it'd defined as "darkforce" or something similar. However if it's purely and plainly defined as "shadows" then semi-solid would be out of theme.

other ideas, shadow-wings, shadow blasts, shadow walls etc. Remember that the basic power (shaping/wall/blast etc.) are all standardized...the nova is free to define them as they choose including being "shadow-based"

If he defines them as shadow and anima then he still needs to work with his element. Going back to the book for a moment...

(Page 192) A nova with Elemental Anima can project her quantum jconsciousness into a particular element... investing it with "life". This power allows her to take control of it and shape it to her will. Note that the character cannot create the element... she can only affect and manipulate elemental "matter" that already exists.

This control offers the nova a variety of techniques. The exact techniques differ from element to element, based on the nature of those elements... the techniques chosen should be appropriate to the element that is being controlled - fire or water powers may provide movement abilities... but it's unlikely that darkness would.

AFAICT, Shadow would provide, Increase/Decrease (which could rock), Alter Temperture (decrease, see also black body radiation absorption), Shaping (which combined with bodymorph would effectively be mirror images)... but no amount of shadow is going to provide a shield or bolt.

In RL it is possible for a stream of water to cut someone in half (see water lathe). Any type of behavior your element does anywhere, under any circumstances is pretty open to being turned into a technique. But just because Magnetic Manip (i.e. Magnetic anima) and Anima Electricity can both hose technology doesn't mean that the other elements can. If you want an Anima that projects physical force then choose a different element because shadows never do (which also means that Elemental Mastery: Shadow still won't).

[SkyLion]

Im telling you dude, go check out Tenebrae (I dont habe my books with me). You could define a q-bolt as a shadow blast so the mastery technique could work as well. Sometimes I think your engineering background gets a little in the way. We are talking about beings who for all intents and purposes reshape reality. Go read some DC comics with characters like Shade or The Shadow Thief in particular...he cuts people to ribbons with shadow and has both anima and mastery.

[Alex Green]

Im telling you dude, go check out Tenebrae (I dont habe my books with me)...

As I recall there were 12 or 13 characters in that book with extremely serious character generation issues, mostly focused on that chapter and the final one. For one example of many, another guy in that chapter has Q5 and Disin + Sustained. It doesn't look like those sections were reviewed and IMHO that kind of pre-empts the idea of using them as examples.

You could define a q-bolt as a shadow blast so the mastery technique could work as well.

It is possible, although a little awkward, to define a q-bolt as a shadow bolt. But anima only allows you to control what already exists.

Sometimes I think your engineering background gets a little in the way.

::tongue

We are talking about beings who for all intents and purposes reshape reality. Go read some DC comics with characters like Shade or The Shadow Thief in particular...he cuts people to ribbons with shadow and has both anima and mastery.

Mastery can do anything that Anima can and a lot more, i.e. Mastery has access to Anima's techniques. If you have a character who has both of them, then I can argue that he only uses the Mastery technique to do the non-real things.

According to the rules (quoted above), if you want a physics defying element that doesn't normally exist (like a shadow that has substance), then you need Q5 and Mastery. That's why Elemental Anima: Anti-Matter won't do much for you and even EA:Plasma is going to be limited. In abby, to build the Shadow Thief requires Mastery, same as Green Lantern or Quasar would.

And yes, this is a bit odd considering you can define lots of Q2 powers to work by these same physics defying elements, but them's the rules.

[SkyLion]

For anyone else reading this to whom it may concern I only have a minute right now to post as I am in the process of moving. Will try to get back to the IC thread tommorow on break at work...

I dont understand why mastery is needed to accomplish an effect when it states simply in the book that novas can do whatever they want AND define special effects at will. Also semi-solid shadow is a level 3 power with Shroud+the extra w/no mastery...

[Alex Green]

I dont understand why mastery is needed to accomplish an effect when it states simply in the book that novas can do whatever they want AND define special effects at will. Also semi-solid shadow is a level 3 power with Shroud+the extra w/no mastery...

First Issue: We've been tossing the word "Mastery" around pretty loosely. For this thread the word "Mastery" always refers to "Elemental Mastery" and not the Q6 extra.

Let's say I want to build a Green Lantern-ish character built on controlling darkness. I'm not sure if I have the nova points to buy everything I want so I'm going to have to cut somewhere, and I'm thinking about reducing my level of Quantum.

At Q3 I can buy:

Shroud+Semi-Solid (Solid Darkness)

Q-Bolt (Solid Darkness)

TK (Big Hand made of Solid Darkness)

Forcefield (Wall or field of Solid Darkness one inch think)

Flight (moving that field around).

At Q4 I can buy anything I could buy in Q3, but I can also buy

Q-Construct (manipulating my forcefields to make shadow monsters)

Elemental-Anima (?)

And now we have a problem. If I define my Elemental-Anima as Solid Darkness, then I'm manipulating an element that does not exist in nature, so unless my forcefield is up I will never find any "Solid Darkness" around. On the other hand my Solid Darkness can do the various physical things one would expect it to.

Alternatively, I can buy E-Anima (Shadow), however now I'm limited to manipulating real shadows. Real shadows are not solid, and I can't make them so with E-Anima any more than I can use E-Anima to turn water into acid or make it burn. Water does not do those things. On the other hand manipulating real shadows has other advantages, since they are always around I can use my power pretty much anywhere without needing my forcefield to be up. But just like water has some fundemental characteristics, so does shadow, and I'm still bound by the fact I'm manipulating real shadows and not creating my own. At Q5 I have access to Elemental-Mastery, and those issues go away.

Real Shadows <> Solid Darkness

EA(Real Shadows) <> EM(Solid Darkness)

Let's assume that the ST's rules (correctly IMHO) that "Solid Darkness" and "Normal Shadows" are far enough apart that controlling one doesn't let me manipulate the other.

EA would let you control the real shadows around. This means you could take control of someone else's shadow and make it perform obsene gesters at someone.

EM wouldn't let you do that to someone else's shadow. You could overlay his with one of your own creation, but you couldn't destroy or alter the original.

[SkyLion]

well put. Thank you for clarifying your terminology. Couldn't someone with EM also use EA? (with regards to messing with someone else's shadow).

[Alex Green]

EM is basically EA with the (normally non-trival) ability to create your element. As per the APG, novas with EM can learn any technique available to EA.

So the real question is whether "shadows" are close enough to "solid darkness" for the same EA/EM to manipulate them both. Considering their near total lack of common physical properties & physics, I'd say no. Thematically they are certainly related, so someone who erupts with EM(Solid Darkness) could buy EA(Shadows), but AFAICT there is no overlap between the actual elements so he'd just be using one power on one and one on the other.

[Blue Thunder]

Don't forget that you can use techniques from another suite power with permission from the ST! Look at Spatial Manipulation in the Teragen book...you could use the Flatform technique instead of Movement/Propel if you're using shadow-based powers. You could also crate a weaker version of Strobe: Visual by throwing a veil of shadow over someone's eyes and make that a technique as well.

Oh yeah, and maybe Storm could be altered slightly (as it suggests for every element) to instead of causing damage, causing a Disorient-like effect on people.

[metaphysician]

I know this is an old thread, but out of curiousity: what *were* the other characters with serious build flaws?

[Alex Green]

I know this is an old thread, but out of curiousity: what *were* the other characters with serious build flaws?

We are talking about AB:WWII. Off hand but with the book in front of me.

Section 1:

Apocryph has Disin + Extra at Q5.

Dirge has an attack he can not possibly use (Immolate inside a Bodymorph with DD3)

Tenebrae has bodymorph with Clone as one of it's dots, and he has Q4 (2x illegal)

None of the mob novas have backgrounds.

Phosphorus erupted in a gun battle with a lethal soak of 2 against bullets.

Section 3:

Impaler's big attack making him such a feared force does 3+acc dice of Agg damage.

Section 4:

Maybaker has Disin + Extra at Q5.

Maybaker has the extra "Ranged" on a power that is already ranged.

One of the sub plots calls for Sunbolt to die when a wall falls on her. As she has Mega-Strength (lifter), lots of Mega-Stamina (Regen), and Absorbtion (Kenetic), this seems unlikely.

One of the sub plots calls for the Angel of Bones to suprise and poison Count "O" (whose nova power is he can't be suprised) and Ragnorocket (who has Adaptability). Rag is a quible since she was KO'ed before this happened.

The Angel of Bone's Immobilize power doesn't match it's use or description. It's against willpower (unlikely as a physical poison and grossly broken rules wise) and it has the extra Supertough (which means you have to break through the immobilize to attack the person held, and that other people could help them).

[metaphysician]

We are talking about AB:WWII. Off hand but with the book in front of me.

Section 1:

Apocryph has Disin + Extra at Q5.

Dirge has an attack he can not possibly use (Immolate inside a Bodymorph with DD3)

Tenebrae has bodymorph with Clone as one of it's dots, and he has Q4 (2x illegal)

None of the mob novas have backgrounds.

Phosphorus erupted in a gun battle with a lethal soak of 2 against bullets.

Didn't spot alot of these. Yeah, they make little sense ( or none ).

Section 3:

Impaler's big attack making him such a feared force does 3+acc dice of Agg damage.

While I do agree they misunderstood how Agg interacts with Claws, I disagree that he wouldn'e be exceedingly dangerous. Not alot of novas in the Aberrant setting have more than twelve lethal soak they can use against agg attacks ( via whatever means ). Should have a non-agg Claws slot to go with it, though.

Section 4:

Maybaker has Disin + Extra at Q5.

Maybaker has the extra "Ranged" on a power that is already ranged.

One of the sub plots calls for Sunbolt to die when a wall falls on her. As she has Mega-Strength (lifter), lots of Mega-Stamina (Regen), and Absorbtion (Kenetic), this seems unlikely.

I figured she was drained and injured from the fight. They should have specified, though.

One of the sub plots calls for the Angel of Bones to suprise and poison Count "O" (whose nova power is he can't be suprised) and Ragnorocket (who has Adaptability). Rag is a quible since she was KO'ed before this happened.

The Angel of Bone's Immobilize power doesn't match it's use or description. It's against willpower (unlikely as a physical poison and grossly broken rules wise) and it has the extra Supertough (which means you have to break through the immobilize to attack the person held, and that other people could help them).

I always figured that particular subplot basically amounted to "young putz gets lucky." Like you said, Rag was already unconscious, and Count Orzaiz was already in a situation that was probably sending his Premonitions haywire.

As for the power construct, lordy, that always struck me as weird. To be charitable, I think they were just trying to achieve the effect they were going for ( immobilization via massive obesity ) with the best fitting pieces they had. Only it was still an ill-fit. The problem was, they wanted something that *wasn't* able to be broken out of by physical force, and "vs willpower' is the only option that exists.

If I were trying to build that effect, I'd figure one of two ways:

1. Use another power to build it ( Disorient, Q-Vamp maybe )

2. Create a new Immobilize variant: "Versus Stamina." It'd probably need Superheavy, though, given how common Mega Stamina is.

[BlueNinja]

Dirge has an attack he can not possibly use (Immolate inside a Bodymorph with DD3)

Why can't you have on Immolate and DD3? Seems like a great attack to me - all you have to do is step into them and they'll be taking damage.

[Alex Green]

Why can't you have on Immolate and DD3? Seems like a great attack to me - all you have to do is step into them and they'll be taking damage.

Because DD3 says all of your own attacks do no damage (or words to that effect).

It doesn't say you can only attack with things that can attack you, nor does it say that you can only attack with energy attacks. ALL of your attacks do nothing.

[Alex Green]

While I do agree they misunderstood how Agg interacts with Claws, I disagree that he wouldn'e be exceedingly dangerous....

He is described as being death on legs. His attack takes three hits to kill the typical baseline.

As for the power construct, lordy, that always struck me as weird. To be charitable, I think they were just trying to achieve the effect they were going for ( immobilization via massive obesity ) with the best fitting pieces they had.

Actually there is an extra which makes the Immobilize transparent to attacks, i.e. you can only attack the nova.

The problem was, they wanted something that *wasn't* able to be broken out of by physical force, and "vs willpower' is the only option that exists.

A willpower immobilize implies that you need a telepath to help free you, which makes no sense. This BTW is *far* more broken than Q-Vampire (Willpower) which was banned with errata. Doing the math, in order to free yourself from this guy's immobilize you need Mega-Willpower 2 or better to even try to break free, since it holds with Mega-Strength 2. It also has a soak of something like 9 (book not here), so effectively it is simply not possible, even for Divis Mal and the like, for anyone to ever get free.

Nor did it really matter in this case whatever the immobilize was against, since both the novas caught in it are unconscious and can't try to do anything anyway.

2. Create a new Immobilize variant: "Versus Stamina." It'd probably need Superheavy, though, given how common Mega Stamina is.

Non-strength immobilizes should simply be banned since the rules are brutally broken for the other stats.

And you are right, Q-Vampire would probably have worked a little better, especially in combo with a normal immobilize.

[SkyLion]

A couple comments.

,,

1. There should be a way to simulate desolid energy beings, that both take *no* damage from physical attacks (but still from energy) and still do full energy power damage.

,,

In other words Alex, sometimes I see you argue "but thats what the rules say!" and other timess "what the book says is stupid!" (paraphrased of course ::smile )

,,

IIRC there was a thread that was to try and fix Density Decrease. The problem is easily solved (problem in this case being the unsuitability of the power to actually simulate certain common comic-book conventions...like energy beings). If you make it so that you can attack with whatever can attack you, the problem is quite nicely solved...I am going to have to agree with BN. Can this be abused? Sure. But so can many other combos. For the hypothetical energy being (which I have tried to make before) DD3 + an immolate and a low level force field vs. energy attacks is not only not too broken, but mechanically representative of how such a being would actually interact in the world.

,,

RE: the impaler:

,,

Its 3+ successes..given a lil Mega Dex, he should average +5 succeses for a total of 8 agg...1 hit=dead baselines...

[Alex Green]

A couple comments.,,

1. There should be a way to simulate desolid energy beings, that both take *no* damage from physical attacks (but still from energy) and still do full energy power damage.

There is, it's called INV:Physical. And it's expensive to buy something that going to make you immune to all damage but still able to attack, and that's a good thing.,,

In other words Alex, sometimes I see you argue "but thats what the rules say!" and other timess "what the book says is stupid!" (paraphrased of course ::smile )

Not this time. It's seriously broken to build someone who is totally immune to damage but can still take part in combat.,,

...For the hypothetical energy being (which I have tried to make before) DD3 + an immolate and a low level force field vs. energy attacks is not only not too broken, but mechanically representative of how such a being would actually interact in the world.

A creature made of fire or electricity might be immune to bullets but they'd still be less than immune to water or to being hit with a car. Note this type of effect can be similated very well via INV:Physical. The problem comes when someone wants to be *totally* immune to *all* physical things.

Various energy beings are immune to bullets, testing that immunity to damage against the Hulk is not a good idea however.

,,

RE: the impaler:,,

Its 3+ successes..given a lil Mega Dex, he should average +5 succeses for a total of 8 agg...1 hit=dead baselines...

That's 8 dice of Agg, which is 3.2 levels of damage, which means he needs 3 hits.

[SkyLion]

The Invulnerability: Physical doesn't make you immune (the way DD 3+ does...it just provides extra soak. A being made of an intense enough kind of energy should be totally immune to any physical attack, as it probably passes through (fist/car etc.) and burns up through immolate (bullets, arrows etc.) If the Hulk punches an energy being, the fist goes through, since the being isnt solid enough to take any kinetic energy in any one place...also known as the *WHIF* effect. If we are talking about a being powerful enough (my orifinal idea was a being on the power scale of the human torch, but superhot plasma rather than "just" fire...Hulk proabobly has enough soak to just get singed, whereas it *should* (and again, i am talking from the effects desired IC) melt bullets and cars into slag and even scorch tank armor....

,,

in short, Invulnerability Physical just isnt up to snuff for this concept...DD 3 does...I think there is a strong case that certain characters would be *totally* immune to *all* physical things...and if that sounds unbalanced...tough!

,,

I think as gamers we get *far* too preoocupied with balance, when we are trying to simulate in some sense a virtual representation of the "real" world even though we are adding powers to it.

,,

Comic books portray this "life is not fair and balanced" point alot more clearly...while still retaining "cosmic" balance..

,,

IE: An Invulnerable to all physical attacks plasma being runs amok! Even the Thing gets badly scorched as his punches whif through its purely energy body... OH NO! What are we going to do?!?!? Well, you just call Reed Richards and he comes up wih an Ionic canon (energy weapon that will damage a being still vulnerable to energy) or comes up with a containment device to trap it...in other words..it doesnt matter what you are totally invulnerable to..theres always a way, and when theres not, its just chesser storytelling and/or the apocalypse. ::wink

,,

I think we as gamers should learn from our more narrative brothers...life isnt always fair, but there is still always a way (ddifficult though it may be, or to discern at first)

,,

Re: The Impaler...Oh yeah..I forgot how these rules work. When I played WoD before, we had the house rule (makes sense) that if you can't soak agg damge, then the attacker doesnt roll damage...the agg levels are just applied (cuz what are you going to do about it???) On the other hand, in WoD rules, you roll soak too...in abbie soak is just applied.

[metaphysician]

While I do agree they misunderstood how Agg interacts with Claws, I disagree that he wouldn'e be exceedingly dangerous....

He is described as being death on legs. His attack takes three hits to kill the typical baseline.

Only if he actually uses the Claws. His mega strength is more than adequate to kill anything with minimal durability. The Claws are more for killing hard targets. After all, it *also* only takes three hits to kill anybody who lacks impervious or hardbody.

As for the power construct, lordy, that always struck me as weird. To be charitable, I think they were just trying to achieve the effect they were going for ( immobilization via massive obesity ) with the best fitting pieces they had.

Actually there is an extra which makes the Immobilize transparent to attacks, i.e. you can only attack the nova.

Problem is, that one still allows the victim to break out with physical force. Hence the problem.

The problem was, they wanted something that *wasn't* able to be broken out of by physical force, and "vs willpower' is the only option that exists.

A willpower immobilize implies that you need a telepath to help free you, which makes no sense. This BTW is *far* more broken than Q-Vampire (Willpower) which was banned with errata. Doing the math, in order to free yourself from this guy's immobilize you need Mega-Willpower 2 or better to even try to break free, since it holds with Mega-Strength 2. It also has a soak of something like 9 (book not here), so effectively it is simply not possible, even for Divis Mal and the like, for anyone to ever get free.

No disagreement here. Given there is no mega willpower, anything dealing with willpower is inherently far more effective.

Nor did it really matter in this case whatever the immobilize was against, since both the novas caught in it are unconscious and can't try to do anything anyway.

2. Create a new Immobilize variant: "Versus Stamina." It'd probably need Superheavy, though, given how common Mega Stamina is.

Non-strength immobilizes should simply be banned since the rules are brutally broken for the other stats.

And you are right, Q-Vampire would probably have worked a little better, especially in combo with a normal immobilize.

Point, non-physical immobilizes probably are too broken. Possible exception: if they made "Versus Willpower" an Extra for Immobilize, along with a proviso that any mental offensive power ( including nondamaging ones like Dominate ) can be used to break it.

[Alex Green]

The Invulnerability: Physical doesn't make you immune (the way DD 3+ does...If we are talking about a being powerful enough

The key words are "powerful enough". You can indeed build what you want with INV, you just can't do it with 9 nova points, nor should you be able to.

Comic books portray this "life is not fair and balanced" point alot more clearly...while still retaining "cosmic" balance..

Would you be good with building your PC with 10 nova points while other people use 50? It still averages to 30.

Game balance isn't about building everyone on the same scale, game balance is about making the effects balance against each other. If I say the NPC is 15 points, that means something. If I say he's 150, it means something else.

Making 9 nova points of DD match against 50 nova points of INV is unbalanced. This doesn't prevent the ST from building characters like you descibe, but it does get rid of illusions about the 150 point monster being balanced against a 30 point PC.

,,

IE: An Invulnerable to all physical attacks plasma being runs amok!... I think we as gamers should learn from our more narrative brothers...life isnt always fair, but there is still always a way (ddifficult though it may be, or to discern at first)

The problem doesn't come from NPCs built on lots of points, the problem comes from a PC who wants to slap down 9 nova points and get the rough equiv of 10 dots of INV:Physical. That sounds just a touch unfair to the other PCs.

[SkyLion]

A team with 10 Np characters and 50 NP characters on it? Sure! In fact it happens to be one of my favorite comic booki teams: The Avengers...witness the super-normal Hawkeye, next to Gods (literally!): Hercules and Thor...and everything in-between...

,,

And you are muddying the issue...9 NPs worth of DD *does* make you "utterly invulnerable" to physical attacks...so your point about 50 points of invuln:physical is misplaced. What we are debating is that the DD of whatever level should allow appropriate attacks (based on the special effect involved) that the DD character is still vulnerable to...

[BlueNinja]

My objection to that reading of DD3 is very simple.

If that type of damage can hurt you, you should be able to hurt with the same type of damage. If you're vulnerable to energy attacks, then you should be able to use energy attacks.

Otherwise, you're saying that with three dots of DD3, you can't use Mental Blast, because your attacks inflict no damage at all. And that's just stupid.

[Centimane]

Actually, rereading the rules for DD 3, I don't see where it says anything at all about "all of the character's attacks being useless", it just says that the character is completely intangible and therefore cannot affect the tangible world physically. It goes on to list examples: firing a gun, pick up an object, punch someone, or "do anything of the sort". It doesn't state or imply anywhere that the nova's q-bolt would suddenly stop working. Also, with only 6 more nps spent, your character is immune to *everything* except mental attacks, while you can still punch and kick your enemies to your heart's content.

The example of Inv:Phys makes it sound imbalanced only because Inv. as a whole is a woefully weak and underpowered ability in most cases (unless you're taking it against something like mental attacks in which case it's a relatively cheap way of getting lots more soak than Psy-shield will give you). Spending 5 nps so I can have 6 soak against physical attacks only? No thank you! I'll spend my points on M.Sta and FF and enjoy the many other benefits (and larger soak ratings) those powers will give, if you don't mind.

[Alex Green]

Otherwise, you're saying that with three dots of DD3, you can't use Mental Blast, because your attacks inflict no damage at all.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, and that's exactly what the plain text rules are. And it's to prevent someone from being totally immune to everything but still able to M-Blast+Agg people.

If that type of damage can hurt you, you should be able to hurt with the same type of damage. If you're vulnerable to energy attacks, then you should be able to use energy attacks.

No, 3 dots of DD shouldn't be equal to 10 dots of INV:Physical, and 5 dots of DD shouldn't be equal to 10 dots of INV:Physical+Energy.

Actually, rereading the rules for DD 3, I don't see where it says anything at all about "all of the character's attacks being useless", it just says that the character is completely intangible and therefore cannot affect the tangible world physically. It goes on to list examples: firing a gun, pick up an object, punch someone, or "do anything of the sort". It doesn't state or imply anywhere that the nova's q-bolt would suddenly stop working.

Limitations of DD imposed at DD2. Two dots of DD: ...reduce the effectiveness of the character's own attacks by half.

The 3 dot limitations are a further step worse. Three dots of DD: ... While intangible, the character cannot affect the tangible world in any way...."

So you can still fire your Q-Bolt... but at DD3 it "cannot affect the tangible world in any way". So is that thug tangible? Yes? Then you can't affect him.

Also, with only 6 more nps spent, your character is immune to *everything* except mental attacks, while you can still punch and kick your enemies to your heart's content.

Sure you can, buy making a fist or something tangible. But that fist can then be attacked normally with a standard targeting roll (diff +2 I think).

The example of Inv:Phys makes it sound imbalanced only because Inv. as a whole is a woefully weak and underpowered ability in most cases (unless you're taking it against something like mental attacks in which case it's a relatively cheap way of getting lots more soak than Psy-shield will give you). Spending 5 nps so I can have 6 soak against physical attacks only? No thank you! I'll spend my points on M.Sta and FF and enjoy the many other benefits (and larger soak ratings) those powers will give, if you don't mind.

INV isn't balanced against FF, it's balanced against Armor. And FF has the rather serious problem that you spend juice on it, so if combat lasts more than a few rounds (which is rare with novas I'll grant), then you have real problems.

[SkyLion]

actually Invulnerability:mental is comparable to psi-shield...as a level 1 power, 3 points gets you +6 vs. menatl attacks, and those same 3 points spent on the invuln will also give you 6. What invuln gives you that psy-doesn't is the almost never applied defense against agg mental blasts ec. Carried over to physical its the same thing...a broad category invuln will give you 6 dots of impervious defense for 5 NP. Whereas 5 NPs will only get you 3 soak of armor with the impervious extra...

,,

Oh...and BN siad pretty much what i meant but in plainer english... ::happy

[Centimane]

actually Invulnerability:mental is comparable to psi-shield...as a level 1 power, 3 points gets you +6 vs. menatl attacks, and those same 3 points spent on the invuln will also give you 6. What invuln gives you that psy-doesn't is the almost never applied defense against agg mental blasts ec. Carried over to physical its the same thing...a broad category invuln will give you 6 dots of impervious defense for 5 NP. Whereas 5 NPs will only get you 3 soak of armor with the impervious extra...

,,

Oh...and BN siad pretty much what i meant but in plainer english... ::happy

Speaking of plainer english, that appears to be one of my failings as well. What I meant was that, while 5 dots in Psy-Shield will give you 10 soak against mental attacks, 5 dots in Inv:Mental Attacks will give you 30 soak. For that matter even 2 dots in I:MA will give you 12 soak which is still more than 5 dots in Psy-Shield. It's also much more expensive, but hey, if you don't ever want to have to worry about mental attacks then that's really the only way to go!

[Alex Green]

RE: INV: Mental vs. Psy-shield.

Psy-shield works reasonably well against Agg attacks. The soak doesn't work but the auto-willpower-succ still do.

The reason why I prefer Psy-shield over INV is INV has a duration of Perm and there's nothing in there about it being able to be lowered. Psy-Shield can be applied to unfriendly effects and not applied to friendly effects.

[Centimane]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, and that's exactly what the plain text rules are. And it's to prevent someone from being totally immune to everything but still able to M-Blast+Agg people.

No, 3 dots of DD shouldn't be equal to 10 dots of INV:Physical, and 5 dots of DD shouldn't be equal to 10 dots of INV:Physical+Energy.

Limitations of DD imposed at DD2. Two dots of DD: ...reduce the effectiveness of the character's own attacks by half.

The 3 dot limitations are a further step worse. Three dots of DD: ... While intangible, the character cannot affect the tangible world in any way...."

So you can still fire your Q-Bolt... but at DD3 it "cannot affect the tangible world in any way". So is that thug tangible? Yes? Then you can't affect him.

Sure you can, buy making a fist or something tangible. But that fist can then be attacked normally with a standard targeting roll (diff +2 I think).

INV isn't balanced against FF, it's balanced against Armor. And FF has the rather serious problem that you spend juice on it, so if combat lasts more than a few rounds (which is rare with novas I'll grant), then you have real problems.

Alex, I understand where you're coming from with this, and I can even see your point that it's a cheap way of becoming invulnerable to half of all attacks in the setting. But you're interpretation of the rules is just that, an interpretation. And it really doesn't fit with the flavor text, nor with the NPC examples (limited and flawed as they are), nor does it fit with the comic medium this game is supposed to emulate. Granted, our interpretation of the text is still just that as well, an interpretation and nothing more. But we have the advantage that our interpretation fits in with all of the existing literature, scientific principles (as far as science can actually be applied to this sort of thing, which is kind of laughable so now I'm sorry I mentioned it), and - most importantly - with the *only* hard examples used in the power description. All of the examples used are for physical manipulation of the physical universe, the only "general" example is immediately following the example of not being able to punch someone and it says "anything of the sort" - i.e. anything like punching or picking up something. There simply is no hard, official statement to the effect that a character's mental or energy-based attacks no longer work. Even if something like that were the case, the fact still remains that once the mental or energy-based attack left the DDed nova's body it would cease to be "attuned" to the nova and would start working normally. This is how Figment was able to tranq that guy in the Utopia handbook while DDed and Silenced. She fired a tranq gun while DDed, once the dart left the gun however, it ceased to be DDed itself and affected things normally. I fail to see how a q-bolt, Immolate (based off of energy, of course), or Mental Blast would somehow work differently. Further, if this were the case, than you're saying that if I buy DD 3 for Zhenglai I can't use his Dominate or Telepathy on anyone? What about his Emo Manip? All of those could be considered attacks, so now they don't work anymore?

Once again, I see your point about it being a tad unbalanced, but unfortunately it also makes much more sense on every other level to say that non-physical attacks continue to work normally *especially* if they involve an attack that has to travel away from the character (i.e. it's ranged).

[Alex Green]

]Alex... you're interpretation of the rules is just that, an interpretation. ... There simply is no hard, official statement to the effect that a character's mental or energy-based attacks no longer work.

Um... actually I'd call it a plain reading of the rules. It's quoted in blue above and it seems both hard and official. "...the character's own attacks..." Notice that's not "his physical attacks".

RE: Science

Physical effects work on energy. That's why I can blow out matches with my breath, or put out fires with water. That's why we can put electricity into wires, and why the sun's rays get blocked by the clouds. If the fire is extremely intense, then yes it might melt bullets, but if I use infinately strong huricane winds on it, it could still get blown out. This is not a sign of absolute invulnerability, this is a sign of a high level of resistance (i.e. INV).

RE: Comics

Really not sure what you mean here. When the Vision from the Avengers pulls that "fist inside of someone" trick, sometimes he gets his arm ripped off.

RE: Sample Characters

If you mean Durge then please also explain how I can get an extra on Disin at Q5... nor do we actually see him in action with that in any case. It's certinally possible for him to have both Immolate and DD inside a bodymorph, it's just not useful (this makes him at least legal, which is more than many of his fellows can claim).

RE: Sample Characters in action

The Figment example is a good one. Her silence field being on shows that the gun was still attuned, so if the gun were DD it would have gone right thru him. She has attune (obviously), but she also presumably has DD5 so she can shoot people while DD'ed by making her hand solid. I.e. the gun wasn't DD'ed when she shot him. Notice she doesn't q-bolt anyone.

I fail to see how a q-bolt, Immolate (based off of energy, of course), or Mental Blast would somehow work differently.

Q-Bolt is an instant power, and is attuned to you, and however long an attuned object takes to turn back, it isn't "instantly".

Further, if this were the case, than you're saying that if I buy DD 3 for Zhenglai I can't use his Dominate or Telepathy on anyone?

Not at all. You just can't use them on anyone who is Tangible. See again the text in blue, it's a direct quote.

And note that this can still be turned to a players advantage. For example someone could buy DD2, Forcefield, and Disin pretty cheaply. Yes, the Disin would do half damage, but that's still a lot of AGG which isn't soaked anyway. The Forcefield's effectiveness (as well as the rest of his soak) is massively pumped. You could even put a couple of weakness on the Disin and make it burning or RQC.

[SkyLion]

While I can see your logic Alex, it just doesn't hold water for "comic-book" characters. For example..you can blow a fire out with your breath true...but *everything* is energy...what we are really talking about is desolidification. Other games like Champions have (albeit costly) extras to atack while desolid. Continuing the air example above...Someone who had 3 dots of DD defined as turning into a wind elemental should quite rightly be able to quantum bolt (wind gusts, bashing or lethal) and use effects like Storm..

So while you are correct in reading what the book says...our whole point is that the book does not adequately simulate the needs of the genre, and as been discussed in previous threads, is in need of fixing... In other words...it *should* read physical attacks, not just attacks.