Aberrant RPG - Multiple Actions!

[BlueNinja]

This came up during lunch last week at my game. With the rules, as written, any character can have a maximum of five actions in any given round (assuming we're not accounting for enhancements like Multitasking or Quickness, Body Mods like extra limbs, or powers like Haste - er, Temporal Manipulation). This comes from the rules that for each action you subtract one die from your pool to start, and then one more from each subsequent action. So given a full dice pool (ie, Dex 5 Martial Arts 5 Specialty = 11 dice) you start the first action with six dice, and go downhill from there.

So we decided to see how many multiple-actions you could take in a single round. (Not extra actions, as with Quickness or Haste). With Multitasking, a character doing ten actions a round starts with five dice, and then runs them down losing one die every other action. If you add in two Extra Limbs, you can up it to Twelve actions in a single round. ::blink (Of course, for all of these, your last action is rolled on a single die, so I'd err on the side of caution.)

Or, just so your amazing multitasking multi-armed character can get some dodge in there, let's limit it to six actions. Out of eleven dice, you start your first action by losing ... one die and only drop one every other action. So when you're done, you've still got seven dice left! And that's not even counting your Mega-atts!

Get some Mega-Strength, Rapid Strike, and Claws, maybe even Immolate, and you should be able to go through any single character's soak in a turn or two, simply because without also having Multitasking and maxed-out dice pools, there's no way in hell they can dodge to keep up with you. With a bit of Quickness or Temporal Manipulation, you can keep your extra physical actions for dodging, leaving you to go all-out on the attacks.

I think I need to go out and buy multitasking for my shapeshifting character! With another 25xp I can max out my melee and dex.

[Finbar]

You forgot about straight Mega-Dex, which would add one attack per dot (it does add dice to your pool), but that's a complcation for novas.

Throw in Rapid Strike (+1 die of dam/dot of Mega-Dex) and Quickness (+1 action per time bought), and you can do the quisinarte thing and then some for just (1+levels of Quickness) quantum a round.

Question on Multi-Tasking: Multi-tasking subtracts half the normal number of dice (round down); a nova doing three actions would be -1, -1, -2 dice rather than -3, -4, -5 dice. This mean that I can pull off even more actions, right?

So...Let's say I start out with a pool of 8. The normal limit would be four attacks (-4, -5, -6, -7 dice penalties respective). That would be changed to eight attacks max (-4, -4, -5, -5, -6, -6, -7, -7 dice penalties respective) right?

[Obligatory Note: The five and ninth attacks would have made -8 dice, but that would have given that action 0 dice and thus not be successful, and was thus not counted above]

Also: Can you buy Extra Limbs more than once, and would each time you subtract 1, or just the first time?

FR

[Alex Green]

Also: Can you buy Extra Limbs more than once, and would each time you subtract 1, or just the first time?

Extra Limbs says you are buying one or more limbs, so that implies one level gets as many limbs as you need.

As for the rest, yep, it's a strong concept.

[BlueNinja]

You forgot about straight Mega-Dex, which would add one attack per dot (it does add dice to your pool), but that's a complcation for novas.

Yeah, actually not. The first two pages about Mega-Attributes say that Megas add to your dice pool, not are part of your dice pool. If you have run out of Attribute + Ability dice, you cannot roll straight mega dice - because you technically don't have a dice pool left to roll. The main reason that I went with Dex as my example is that at least you get to roll the mega-dex dice on your attack, unlike a Strength + Brawl.

[BlueNinja]

Also: Can you buy Extra Limbs more than once, and would each time you subtract 1, or just the first time?

Extra Limbs says you are buying one or more limbs, so that implies one level gets as many limbs as you need.

I was assuming that if you paid the NP/XP cost more than once, you could get the bonus more than once. Many of the Mody Mods work the same way, so I was running on the assumption that paying for Extra Limbs once got you one extra limb.

[Alex Green]

I've seen two ST's rule on this.

One said that since one level gave you as many limbs as you could need it wasn't possible for more. The other said he would limit it to 5 "dots".

As with everything in abby, there are trade offs. Those three nova points you use for Mega-Wits (Multitasking) could have bought you flight. And your 20 attacks a turn nova might be meat to a flying bolt lobber who can attack from a range.

[Nullifier]

Sure, you can take a huge amount of actions a turn. Still, since each attack is soaked seperately, it's not like you're going to 'run through' the defender's soak.

[Finbar]

Yeah, actually not.  The first two pages about Mega-Attributes say that Megas add to your dice pool, not are part of your dice pool.  If you have run out of Attribute + Ability dice, you cannot roll straight mega dice - because you technically don't have a dice pool left to roll.  The main reason that I went with Dex as my example is that at least you get to roll the mega-dex dice on your attack, unlike a Strength + Brawl.

←

Actually, it depends on how you interpret

If a nova has a relevant Mega-attribute, dice lost from the multiple action come from the character's normal dice pool first; the Mega-Attribute dice are not lost until the character's normal skill total drops below zero.

(pg 110)

In essence, the two ways of interpreting this are (with Dex 3, Martial Arts 3, and Meg-Dex 2):

a) Once you run out of the six dice from Dex+Martial Arts, the Mega-Atts disappear (and limiting you to a max of three actions (with dice pools of 3N+2M, 2N+2M, 1N+2M).

The normal dice are lost first, and then mega-atts (you would max out at four actions, with the following dice pools: 2N+2M, 1N+2M, 2M, and 1M).

As I couldn't find your clarification in the book, I'm tempted to go with b...

FR

[Alex Green]

Sure, you can take a huge amount of actions a turn. Still, since each attack is soaked seperately, it's not like you're going to 'run through' the defender's soak.

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You come pretty close. Say you hit 10 times and, after soak, do 2 dice per attack. That's still 20 dice or an average of 8 health levels.

But that's just the theory.

Chances are very good you will be doing knock back to him, and that probably puts him out of reach. So basically it has limits.

[BlueNinja]

Sure, you can take a huge amount of actions a turn. Still, since each attack is soaked seperately, it's not like you're going to 'run through' the defender's soak.

←

Um, I thought that soak refreshed each round, not each attack? Otherwise, it's pointless for a group to gang up on a smaller number of novas, unless every single added nova can deal enough damage to crush through the soak value. ::confused

Finbar: My ST went with (a) and I'm inclined to agree. Which is why I posted it the way I did.

Alex: There's tradeoffs with everything, of course. I was just sharing a "wow" moment we had with the rules. Of course, get yourself Flight too, and you're a menace to just about anyone unprepared for you.

[Alex Green]

Um, I thought that soak refreshed each round, not each attack?

Nope. Soak doesn't go down unless something *makes* it go down. Disrupt. Running out of juice, etc. Otherwise a dozen bozos with guns would be pretty lethal.

Otherwise, it's pointless for a group to gang up on a smaller number of novas, unless every single added nova can deal enough damage to crush through the soak value.

Paper covers Rock.

Sissors cuts paper.

Presumably your group of novas don't all have the same powers... and even if they did, it'd be nice to have more actions, more juice, more health, and someone to pick you up and run if your side loses.

[BlueNinja]

Well, after looking at the relevant section, it turns out you're right, and my group has been doing soak wrong this whole time. ::glare But TBH, the way our games have gone, I think I like our GM's way of doing things, because while we've taken more injuries, there have been several badguys who would have bene impossible to defeat otherwise.

[Gryffen]

The other side of this is that a group of novas (or a nova with lots of actions) will likely be doing a lot of 'ping' damage to a very armoured target (I think the cut off is if the target has twice the soak of the attack).

[Nullifier]

there have been several badguys who would have bene impossible to defeat otherwise.

That could just be a function of your group lacking either diversity or adequate tactical foresight. Unless you're going up against a Mal or equivalent, there are a number of combinations of powers that should be sufficent to take down almost any opponent, so long as things are planned well.

[Alex Green]

And maybe your ST will stop building bad guys with insanely high soak if he can apply that soak to everyone.

[Kamilion]

I'm curious what the opinions are on the combination of the Multitasking enhancement with the Quickness enhancement. I have done some horrible things to my players with this.

Contemplate...

Quickness x5; Multitasking

Dex 5, Mega-Dex 5, Martial Arts 5 (Die Pool 10+5)

Each action (6/round) taking 5 strikes (With die pool penalties of 0, -1, -1, -2, -2).

Attack 1: 10+5

Attack 2: 9+5

Attack 3: 9+5

Attack 4: 8+5

Attack 4: 8+5

30 attacks per turn, each with an excellent probability of success.

Of course, combine this with, say, Time Manipulation, using the Accelerate Time technique. Maximum of 5 extra actions per round.

So, first action becomes 5 actions, multi-tasked to take 5 attacks per action. The five Quickness actions each multi-tasked to take 5 attacks.

50 attacks in a turn. Assuming she spent one round using Time Manipulation, and spent the next round focused on physical actions only (Accelerate Time and Quickness both have that limitation, according to canon), she would have spent 13 QP over the course of 2 rounds. 10 QP in the second round alone, which means a minimum Node 3, I believe.

Assuming, of course, a very powerful nova. Divis Mal could do this easily (one of his suggested powers is Time Manipulation). However, I did the same with a uber-nova with massive mega-attributes and Time Manipulation as her only abilities (which was far more than enough). She didn't take all the attacks, of course... she used some to move about. The slaughter was... ugly.

Twinky? Sure. But incredibly awe-inspiring to the PCs (and, admittedly, a little disheartening in the "Why the hell are we here again?" sense). I would note that she was nowhere near the power-level of Caestus Pax or Divis Mal.

Yes, these are the thoughts that come to me at work. Sue me.

[Alex Green]

The sane way to resolve this is to only let Quickness add actions (i.e. evaluate it last).

Example: Quick 2 and Multitasking, with 8 actions.

Quick gives you 2 extra actions, Multitasking Splits the other 6.

[BlueNinja]

The five Quickness actions each multi-tasked to take 5 attacks.

Not possible. Quickness says very specifically that it gives you one physical action - you cannot multi-task a single action, unless you're doing multiple partial moves, since they are all less than one action. Multitasking alone is scary enough when you have a nova with Mega-Wits that high; such a character's main weakness is getting through high soak values, since the maxed Mega-Wits and Mega-Dex is expensive as hell. Throw in Time Manipulation as well, and you're looking at an expensive nova to build. A party of starting novas should be able to easily deal with such a character; multiple actions don't work so well if you're telepathically being screwed with, or dominated, or seduced, or being held motionless in midair. ::happy

[Kamilion]

Not possible.  Quickness says very specifically that it gives you one physical action - you cannot multi-task a single action, unless you're doing multiple partial moves, since they are all less than one action.  Multitasking alone is scary enough when you have a nova with Mega-Wits that high; such a character's main weakness is getting through high soak values, since the maxed Mega-Wits and Mega-Dex is expensive as hell.  Throw in Time Manipulation as well, and you're looking at an expensive nova to build.  A party of starting novas should be able to easily deal with such a character; multiple actions don't work so well if you're telepathically being screwed with, or dominated, or seduced, or being held motionless in midair. ::happy

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Eh. Yes, and the rules say you get one action per turn, unless you take multiple actions with die penalties. The combination of Multitasking and Quickness is, in my opinion, a ST call depending on your game. I choose to allow it, mostly because it suits my tastes of the game to imagine dozens of lightning fast blows and movements taking place in mere seconds.

As for being easily defeated by beginning characters, you would have to assume that, the NPC (named Illyra, after that demon chick from Angel) only had massive Wits and Dex and that the PCs were a group with varied abilities.

In reality, she had massive mega-attributes across the board (on par with the PG version of Caestus Pax), as well as two broad category invulnerabilities at three and some bitchin' eufiber, plus the maxed Temporal Manipulation, and a Willpower of 10. The PC's, on the other hand, consist of a super-sonic speedster with a punch like a tank round (aggi claws) and forcefield and a combination flying brick/mega-soc fellow. Several of the speedsters attacks did make Illyra flinch (until she simply froze him in time), while the brick's only effective manuever was laying on the charm (which frankly kept her from popping his head off his shoulders).

Anyway, in the end, it really depends on how you choose to run the game, and what interpretation you put on the rules. Personally, I follow canon when I can, modify it when I must, and dump it completely when it violates the feel of my games.

[Tomasdark]

ME = Brick

[Alex Green]

...a ST call depending on your game. I choose to allow it, mostly because it suits my tastes of the game to imagine dozens of lightning fast blows and movements taking place in mere seconds.

Anyway, in the end, it really depends on how you choose to run the game, and what interpretation you put on the rules. Personally, I follow canon when I can, modify it when I must, and dump it completely when it violates the feel of my games.

Very true.

As for being easily defeated by beginning characters, you would have to assume that, the NPC (named Illyra, after that demon chick from Angel) only had massive Wits and Dex and that the PCs were a group with varied abilities.

In reality, she had massive mega-attributes across the board (on par with the PG version of Caestus Pax), as well as two broad category invulnerabilities at three and some bitchin' eufiber, plus the maxed Temporal Manipulation, and a Willpower of 10. The PC's, on the other hand, consist of a super-sonic speedster with a punch like a tank round (aggi claws) and forcefield and a combination flying brick/mega-soc fellow. Several of the speedsters attacks did make Illyra flinch (until she simply froze him in time), while the brick's only effective manuever was laying on the charm (which frankly kept her from popping his head off his shoulders).

This isn't broken when applied to an NPC like Illyra (or Max, or Pax) because the NPC is already so dominate. Exactly how the NPC steamrolls over the PCs doesn't really matter.

The potential for balance problems is where one of your PCs slaps down 16 experience points and wants Mega-Wits (Quick x2, Multitasking) and another 20 attacks a round for 3 quantum points per round.

As you pointed out, it's your game and you can make adjustments (like not allowing them to buy that), but this is the line of reasoning.

[metaphysician]

In the campaign I'm playing in, the GM ruled that only your natural, single action can be split ( exception: any action, regardless of source, can be put to Full Dodge ).

Otherwise, its trivial to overcome dodge, and hit the opponent a couple dozen times. This would mean that speedsters could slaughter *everyone* who doesn't have overwhelming soak, including other speedsters who have as little as one fewer Quickness actions.

[SkyLion]

Makes sense to me MP...Speedsters are among the dealiest of opponents. Even without multiple actions they can move into combat, strike and be miles away in a second.

,,

Think about it...IRL, Bruce Lee always won through speed and agility...he was strong, but his ability to generate velocity made his strikes that much more powerful.

,,

In comics also, speedsters are amazing...Flash is proabaly the most powerful of the justice leagers, save for superman, and that is the other thing you mentioned...HIgh soak characters can stand the beating but often cant do anything back...and then all it takes is for the speedster to create a whirlwind...

[Centimane]

Actually the real problem with "deadly speedster syndrome" isn't whether said speedsters can take 1 action in a turn or 100. The problem is their impressively high dice pools. A character with Dex 5, mega-Dex 5, and martial arts/melee 5 has 10 regular dice and 5 mega-dice in his pool for a full action. Add in the specialty and he has 11 regular dice. That means that for one, non-penalized, action this character will statistically get (11x.4=4.4)+(5x.9=4.5)=8.9 successes per action. That's attack successes, which must be resisted by their opponent's dodge, block, or parry rolls. Once you start taking multiple actions the speedster's dice pools start getting smaller, but his opponents are going to have to divide up their dice pools as well. And if the victim's dice pool started out smaller, it really doesn't matter whether the speedster can take one extra action per turn or 25 extra actions per turn, because the victim's dice pools are always going to be smaller.

And between the two enhancements, Multitasking is far more susceptible to abuse than Quickness. Normally, taking 6 actions in a single turn would net you the following penalties: -6, -7, -8, -9, -10, -11, -12, making it completely unfeasable for any normal human. However, the above mentioned speedster, with Multitasking, can take these six actions (for 1 qp) with these penalties: -3, -3, -4, -4, -5, -5, meaning that even for his last two actions he's still got a dice pool of up to 6 dice and 5 mega-dice, or 2.4+4.5=6.9 successes per action. With only multitasking this character can take 6 actions, for 1 qp, and he's only taking a statistical hit of 2 successes for his last two actions (his first two would have an average of 7.7, and his second two 7.3)!! From the standpoint of anyone trying to defend against this character this sucks! Even if you go full defensive (pg. 244 of the core book), and you're only taking 1 die off for each successive defensive action, unless your dice pools are equal, or nearly equal, to the speedster's then you're screwed.

Look at it this way: Speedster has Dex, Mega-Dex, and Martial Arts/Melee all at 5, along with Mega-Wits 1 and the Multitasking enhancement. Rabbit, his opponent, has Dex 4, Mega-Dex 3, Martial Arts/Melee of 5, and Mega-Wits 1 with Multitasking. Neither has any applicable specialties to apply. Speedster declares that he's gonna take 6 offensive actions towards Rabbit (in RL he'd most likely take a mix of offensive and defensive, but we'll just say he's only attacking for this example), and Rabbit says he's gonna go full defensive, both will activate their Multitasking enhancements for this round. For the six actions Speedster's dice pools are: 7+5, 7+5, 6+5, 6+5, 5+5, 5+5, while Rabbit's defensive pools for his six actions are: 8+3 (1/2=.5, rounded down as per Multitasking, =0), 7+3, 7+3, 6+3, 6+3, 5+3. So, statistically speaking, Speedster gets the following number of successes for his six actions: 7.3, 7.3, 6.9, 6.9, 6.5, 6.5, while Rabbit's would be: 5.9, 5.5, 5.5, 5.1, 5.1, 4.7.

Statistically speaking Speedster hits with successes to spare on all six actions. Even if Rabbit decides to just take one full action using his full dice pool, and Speedster decides to use his last action to defend, Rabbit would get 6.3 successes and Speedster would get 6.5. Rabbit just got hit 5 times while Speedster laughed at his futile attempt to land a hit.

All of this was using 6 actions, but so long as Speedster still has one regular die in his pool, he can statistically expect at least 4.9 successes per action taken because of his 5 dots in Mega-Dex.

Now, let's say we go with the above interpretation of the rules (that says that Quickness can't be used in conjunction with Multitasking, or even with basic multiple actions). Now let's say that we give Rabbit a level of Quickness. Now let's say that Speedster declares that he's going to take 6 actions, 5 will be attacks, 1 will be defensive. Rabbit says he'll use both his Multitasking and Quickness enhancements (spending double what Speedster has just spent), he's going to use his first action for going full defensive and his Quickness action for making an attack using his full dice pool. Well, that's nice for Rabbit, except for the part where he's no better off than before, and Speedster will in all likelihood land most of his attacks as well as block or dodge Rabbit's attack, and he'll have done it for half the the qps that Rabbit spent.

My point is that it really comes down to who has the greater chance of hitting, and how many times they have to hit their opponent to put them down for good. Limiting the way Quickness works solves very little, especially since most starting PCs can't afford to have high Dex, M.Dex, M.Arts, and multiple levels of Quickness along with Multitasking, and still be able to buy all the other powers they wanted as well. It's like Alex said, there's tradeoffs no matter how you do it. And it's not like it's impossible for Rabbit to beat Speedster either, he's just gonna have to use more strategy than he might like.

And as for how fights go in real life; speed is great, but it doesn't solve all your problems. It also doesn't guarantee victory. Skill, strategy, and experience win fights. Speed, strength, and stamina just help a lot.

[SkyLion]

I was just meaning that velocity is what kills. A bullet is dull...it is the force of its velocity that punches it through you. Small particles of debris orbiting earth at many thousands (tens of thousands?) miles per hour can and do damage sattelites and spacecraft.

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As for the splitting multiple actions from extra actions, my experience with WW tells me that they intended extra actions to be split. Take for example, Accelerate Time. What the power is actually doing is making you seem faster to others, but to your perspective you are moving normally. It is actually giving you more time. A well trained and highly mega-dextrous martial artist can and should be able to spit that extra time as much as for ordinary actions. Likewise the Quickness character who actually accelerates his body, and because this is mega-wits, his mind, then likewise he will have an advantage over his opponent. Thats what its for. And Multi-tasking would stack as well. It makes you that much better at working with what you've got. IMHO, kamilion is correct and 50 actions a turn is possible (though DAMN expensive!) and trying to interpret the other way is just fearfull STs way of enforcing an arbitrary (and illogical from the IC perspectiv) limitation.

,,

I find many of these STs have forgotten that, as with Exalted, characters are supposed to start out as crazy-powerful gods. They still hold onto antiquated notions of PCs starting as level 1 nobodys with a single and often measly hit die. Roleplaying has evolved, and it is now accepted to tell stories at any possible level.

,,

I personally enjoy playing high powered characters. Does this make me a power-gamer? Sure. I like playing games with powers, the reason why I play Aberrant, Rifts, Marvel, Mage and WarHammer, and not GURPS Modern, Call of Cthulu, or My Little Pony: The RPG (TM!). And Twink is only for those who play the game out of a sense of real-life inadequacy. You know the type: loud, boorish and disuptive. Plays one-dimensional wolverine knock offs minus the cool factor and subtlty of personality. I have no problem witrh wanting to play an uber-god, so long as they play it with a true sense of character.

,,

Doctor Manhattan worked because of his fleshed out personality, and his coming to terms with what his pwer cost him. However note that at the end of the day, after all the angst and soul searching. The Blood and the Tears, he still dominated the situation and mopped up, though for all his power he did not overshadow the other characters or even change what had been done, given the moral weight of what had been done. Great story...and in the end thats what matters.

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To be fair, I do have a bias, since I too have a character of this type, but it does fit the flavor text of the XWF and other books that speak of speedsters making lighting attacks to the point where high speed cameras have to replay the footage later just so people can see what really happened...

,,

Also, as I tried to say before, it fits the genre of superheroics. Speedsters have traditionally been incredibly versatile and crazy powerful Am I the only one here who is steeped in the mythology of The Flash? In the comics its the rare moment he ever gets hit. Same thing with rarely ever missing. And for supersoak characters there are other options...like when Flash becomes a living vibro-drill and blasts through Luther/Braniac. Dudes and Dudettes...know the mightiness of the living Speed Force!

[metaphysician]

Frankly, the problem is more administrating 50+ actions per turn.

[madcat82]

Invisibility + aggro claws + combat teleport + mega strength.

Cannot stop an attack you don't know is coming.

[Alex Green]

RE: Speedsters dominating.

Comment #1: For all that talk about the speedster hitting every time, it almost doesn't matter. Even in the above example, if "Rabbit" goes first, attacks twice, then chances are pretty good Speedy will be dead before he can use his admittedly impressive set of attacks.

Comment #2: Speedsters are impressive at some things in some situations. They also tend to be low soak and thus run the risk of getting killed from some fairly common other character types, i.e. Bricks, & Ambush types.

Comment #3: Knockback is another thing that evens things out. You make 6 attacks, the first one knocks the other guy back 10 meters... and now he's out of range for your other 5 split action-attacks. Oops.

RE: Splitting Actions

Temporal Manip actions probably can be split. Quick probably can not be.

[Centimane]

Frankly, the problem is more administrating 50+ actions per turn.

::laugh Seriously. It wouldn't be so bad if you didn't have to juggle initiative and people holding actions, etc, etc.

Comment #1: For all that talk about the speedster hitting every time, it almost doesn't matter. Even in the above example, if "Rabbit" goes first, attacks twice, then chances are pretty good Speedy will be dead before he can use his admittedly impressive set of attacks.

Doesn't work. Rabbit's smaller dice pools mean his initiative is also lower, meaning he will, in all likelihood, go last, not first (and that's not including the fact that if he has a Quickness action he loses -2 on his initiative). Even if he does go first, Speedster would, in all likelihood, dodge, block, or parry all of Rabbit's attacks (and quite handily too) while still having actions of his own to use that Rabbit would probably fail to dodge, block, or parry. Also, in the above example, neither character has anything more than normal human strength in play, so no, Speedster would not be dead after two hits. I did this on purpose though to illustrate the point that incredibly fast characters are scary to point, but like everyone else they have their weaknesses. (Yes, I realize that you could just stack mega-str on them, maybe with Claws to boot, but a starting PC is unlikely to have all of that, and if they do, then what in God's name are you doing getting into a fight with them? ::confused )

Also, note that I was using statistics and we all know what the Dice Gods think of statistics. ::rolleyes In RL Rabbit might very well roll nothing but successes while the Dice Gods pour out all of their considerable wrath on Speedster who would then fail or botch every single one of his actions (maybe even his initial Wits roll for activating Multitasking). These things happen.

My point is that the person with the larger Dexterity dice pool (especially Mega-Dex since it carries over to ever single action and is good for extra successes) has the advantage in most cases when it comes to physical combat. And this is where speed rules the day, even in real life. Hyper-speed and lots of extra actions are neat, but if you're only averaging a couple of successes per attack while your opponent is averaging several successes on his defense rolls, then all that flashy "speed" isn't going to do you any good. The sort of "speed" that people are talking about when they mention a martial arts master or a truly great boxer or what have you, that kind of "speed" is coordination and reflex, not how fast you can move. And good coordination and reflex implies, in most (but certainly not all) cases, a certain amount of training and skill. Which is why people train to be fighters. If you don't know how to harness the speed you've got it does you no good, but if you do then you can go up against someone much faster than you who doesn't and still kick their backsides up and down the street.

Also regarding Quickness and splitting actions: I've read all of the texts and I can't find a single place where it mentions that Multitasking or split actions can't be used in conjuction with Quickness or Temporal Manipulation (or anything else that might grant extra actions). ::huh I can definitely see where an ST might want to ban it just to keep the insanity level at a minimum, but there's not even any "flavor text" indicating that such is actually the case canonically. This despite the fact that Multitasking and Quickness are listed practically right next to each other in the book. You'd think they'd clarify if that was actually their take on the matter.

I do see where it says under Quickness that a character may take an action "that incurs no dice pool penalty - the nova may use his full dice pools with both of his actions." But all that this would imply is that, because the nova still has full use of his dice pools for both actions, he may split them as normal if he so desires (as opposed to normal, where they would already have been penalized, hence the clarification). The reason I disagree that this implies that you can't split these actions is because that would be *adding to* the text, whereas saying that you can is simply going along with the rules *already in existence*. Occam's Razor. The simplest working explanation wins. Again, I can see where an ST might want to make a house rule that says "no splitting of Extra Actions" to keep things managable, but I can't see any actual reference in the text to support the idea that this is in any way "official".

[metaphysician]

I don't think there *is* a canonical rule against it. I just favor it for the same reason my GM does: keeping away the specter of one ( or more! ) characters hauling out boatloads of actions per turn.

As long as its applied evenly to everyone, it shouldn't be too big a nerf. Against much slower targets, you can't haul out the insane barrage of attacks, but your fewer attacks are made with more dice, for more bonus each, so unless your fighting someone you were hoping to ping to death, your still okay.

[SkyLion]

I don't think there *is* a canonical rule against it. I just favor it for the same reason my GM does: keeping away the specter of one ( or more! ) characters hauling out boatloads of actions per turn.

As long as its applied evenly to everyone, it shouldn't be too big a nerf. Against much slower targets, you can't haul out the insane barrage of attacks, but your fewer attacks are made with more dice, for more bonus each, so unless your fighting someone you were hoping to ping to death, your still okay.

,,

Still doesn't fit either the flavor text (see XWF: Silver Circle) nor the genre of speedsterness...

[Alex Green]

Alex: Comment #1: For all that talk about the speedster hitting every time, it almost doesn't matter. Even in the above example, if "Rabbit" goes first, attacks twice, then chances are pretty good Speedy will be dead before he can use his admittedly impressive set of attacks.

Cottus Centimane: Doesn't work. Rabbit's smaller dice pools mean his initiative is also lower, meaning he will, in all likelihood, go last, not first (and that's not including the fact that if he has a Quickness action he loses -2 on his initiative).

Speedster’s base init is +3 over Rabbit’s… however Speedy also spent at least 7 more nova points and possibly as much as 17 (Quantum costs). To put that another way, if Rabbit has +8 Init from bonus points (he only needs a Q of 2), then he still has nova points for Enhanced Init and will win Init every time.

Cottus Centimane: Even if he does go first, Speedster would, in all likelihood, dodge, block, or parry all of Rabbit's attacks (and quite handily too) while still having actions of his own to use that Rabbit would probably fail to dodge, block, or parry.

No he won’t. He’s only dodging with one action, remember? Not only does he get hit but Rabbit got +5 dice from extra succ.

Cottus Centimane: Also, in the above example, neither character has anything more than normal human strength in play, so no, Speedster would not be dead after two hits.

Assuming the characters balance, Rabbit has enough nova points for +3 Mega-Strength. Chances are good Speedy just got one punched.

Also regarding Quickness and splitting actions: I've read all of the texts and I can't find a single place where it mentions that Multitasking or split actions can't be used in conjuction with Quickness or Temporal Manipulation (or anything else that might grant extra actions).

I see nothing that implies they can be. Quick says you one extra action. Not one splitable action, not a multiple action, not a group of actions, just one action (actually it says “an extra physical action”). Don’t read into something that isn’t there. Put another way, Quick comes last, after split actions. If you have Quick x2 you get to take 2 extra actions without die penalties. If you want to take a total of 6 actions, then you need to split 4 and take Quick for 2 more.

Cottus Centimane: Occam's Razor. The simplest working explanation wins.

The reason there’s nothing in the book about combining Quick and M-Task is because they can’t be combined (reasoning given above). Further, interpreting it the other way very quickly leads to mass insanity, and still further, none of the sample characters, even the extreme speed based ones (Totentanz comes to mind) make use of it.

Those are three good reasons for saying Cannon opposes it.

[SkyLion]

I disagree Alex. It gives you one physical action true. It doesn't say "splittable action" or "multiple actions" but it doesnt ever say that anywhere anyways! Normal physical actions can be split and they dont call it anything other than simply an "action." Especially for the time manip example I gave above and even for quickness which matches your mind speed to your physical body (enabling you to act normally with your enhanced speed) I think you are just reaching for an excuse to nix it. the evidence for splitting actuons as normal is pretty large and the only evidence anyone has given against it so far has been made up or nered in.

,,

And it *still* goes against canon...

[Alex Green]

I've got the book open right now, and no where does it say that actions can be split. It says you can take multiple actions (page 110). That's *not* the same thing.

The rules say that the first thing you do is figure out how many actions you want to take (page 110).

From there you figure out what the die pool penalties are (also page 110), although this is modified by Multitasking (page 169) and Bodymod: Extra Limbs (page 184). After all of that is done, if you want "an extra physcial action", you may pay a point of quantum and get it (page 170).

That's straight-from-the-book cannon, not my wishful thinking, nor even house rules invented to cover rule gaps. Them's the rules.

[SkyLion]

I've got the book open right now, and no where does it say that actions can be split. It says you can take multiple actions (page 110). That's *not* the same thing.

The rules say that the first thing you do is figure out how many actions you want to take (page 110).

From there you figure out what the die pool penalties are (also page 110), although this is modified by Multitasking (page 169) and Bodymod: Extra Limbs (page 184). After all of that is done, if you want "an extra physcial action", you may pay a point of quantum and get it (page 170).

That's straight-from-the-book cannon, not my wishful thinking, nor even house rules invented to cover rule gaps. Them's the rules.

,,

Semantics. Taking multiple actions means splitting your dice pools from a single action. "Multiple actions" is just a gamer colloquialism. I assume you are talking about quickness here.

,,

The problem is that while you can argue semantics and book mechanics til you are blue (Paul Blue...007!) in the face it doesn't change the fact that you can split your dice pools on a multiple action normally. It just does not make sense that being able to act faster and or slow time would keep you from doing the same thing. i just don't buy it, especially from the perspective of what is really happening IC and the staples of the genre...

,,

I can't remember which book it is in or where, but somewhere it does talk about Novas making dozens of attacks per second in the XWF...

[Centimane]

Speedster’s base init is +3 over Rabbit’s… however Speedy also spent at least 7 more nova points and possibly as much as 17 (Quantum costs). To put that another way, if Rabbit has +8 Init from bonus points (he only needs a Q of 2), then he still has nova points for Enhanced Init and will win Init every time.

Cottus Centimane: Even if he does go first, Speedster would, in all likelihood, dodge, block, or parry all of Rabbit's attacks (and quite handily too) while still having actions of his own to use that Rabbit would probably fail to dodge, block, or parry.

No he won’t. He’s only dodging with one action, remember? Not only does he get hit but Rabbit got +5 dice from extra succ.

Assuming the characters balance, Rabbit has enough nova points for +3 Mega-Strength. Chances are good Speedy just got one punched.

Alex you're adding extra factors into this scenario, so of course the outcome is going to be different. In my example I listed the pertinent stats of each character. I didn't say that either of them had Enhanced Initiative or Mega-Strength or anything else of that nature, and to be honest I didn't (and still don't) care if either of them would have the starting np to buy some. I purposely left that out to keep things simple. Yes, if you add extra stuff to Rabbit he can easily beat Speedster, and yes, if you add stuff to Speedster, he can still beat Rabbit. Great. ::glare I'm glad we got that out of the way. ::indifferent

To be honest, I'm a little surprised that you would do that, since it muddies the issue and doesn't solve anything as far as this discussion goes. Still, I guess you just can't turn off that Tactical Prodigy enhancement of yours can you? ::tongue

....Those are three good reasons for saying Cannon opposes it.

The problem with saying that the book doesn't say you can is that it also doesn't say you can't. The book does have extensive rules for handling multiple actions, all of which work seemlessly with Quickness whether or not you allow Quickness to be split into multiple actions. If you say that Quick can be used for multiple actions, the rules work great and there's no problems other than the fact that the ST might have to deal with more actions per turn than he or she would like. If you don't the rules also work fine, but sadly Quickness suddenly becomes much more expensive to use effectively than Multitasking, and only comes to the fore when a PC has both a large dice pool and 2 or more levels of Quickness. As for things like "splittable actions", there's no such thing. Your character's initial, natural action isn't splittable, but you can choose to take more than one separate - non-splittable- action per turn if you choose, it's just that it subtracts from your character's dice pools. So what happens when you suddenly have *two* dice pools? That's the real question, and unfortunately, that's where the book has no definite answers. Quickness states that it grants an extra physical action, but that it's penalized by -2 to your initiative, and you retain your full dice pool for both actions. So now you essentially have two seperate dice pools for the same skill roll. The first can obviously be used for multiple actions because the book says it can in no uncertain terms, as for the second...well...that's not so clear. But only because the book doesn't say flat out what the case is. So here's a question for everyone: what if I take x number of multiple actions with my natural action, dividing up my pool as per the rules listed, and then I take my action from Quickness and declare I'm going to use it for going "full defensive" as per the rules on pg. 244 of the core book? I've just used my Quickness action to take (drum roll please)... Multiple Actions!!!!! Now according to what I've read on this thread, most people agree that there's nothing wrong with using a Quickness action for defending against multiple opponents, but other than a slight modification to how the dice pool is penalized, there's no difference between this and normal multiple actions. So if we're all going to say this is allowed and there's no conflict with the rules, then how can we say that normal multiple actions aren't allowed?

So there's my argument for why the rules don't disagree with it. As for the sample characters given in the various books; you yourself have pointed out in the past just how many flaws there are in the builds of many of the "official" characters. So if you're going to use Totentanz as an example of why Multitasking can't be combined with Quickness, then I'm going to hit you with Radu Slaniskovich and prove once and for all that YES, in point of fact, the Aggravated extra *does* stack with both Claws and Mega-Strength as Radu's creator so obviously intended and now we can all go running around dishing out 25 automatic levels of Pure Quantum Death to all who would oppose us!!!!

...ahem...

That is all.

[metaphysician]

And I will sit here, quite happy nonetheless, as my GM changed the definition and availability of Aggravated damage entirely, thus avoiding the entire issue.

[Centimane]

And I will sit here, quite happy nonetheless, as my GM changed the definition and availability of Aggravated damage entirely, thus avoiding the entire issue.

How so?

Personally I think it should just be removed from Aberrant entirely. I could go on and explain why, but this is the wrong thread so I'll restrain myself.

[metaphysician]

Basically, in Ancient Aberrant, agg has been redefined to fit more into the Exalted paradigm. So, agg attacks aren't 'merely' disintegration or similar. They are attacks that fundamentally warp and distort reality, specifically, the portion of reality that contains and defines you.

As such, both aggravated attacks, and defenses against them, are exceedingly rare. My guess is, Aggravated is considered the equivalent of a level of Mastery, in terms of requirement and rarity.

So far, aggravated attacks encountered ( or often, merely seen, in the distance ) to date include:

-Apophis, who is basically a walking, talking Quantum 8+ humanoid mass of antiexistence. Several of his attacks seem to basically destroy the portion of the universe they pass through, let alone any person contained therein.

-Bran the Damned, pretty much the posterchild in our home era for Taint, had an ultimate attack that consisted of focusing all of his toxic power into one giant spear, and sending it at somebody. Basically, raw, hyperconcentrated taint as an attack. Given what direct exposure to his power did elsewhere. . .

-On a much lower scale, a lesser opponent we directly fought, Toshimoko, unleashed an aggravated attack consisted of a stream of scathing bloody tendrils as a final attack. This required a power max, and it burned out the last of his life doing so, however.

Basically, if your Q6+, you might be able to justify an aggravated attack. Otherwise, you might be able to max to produce one, at great expense to yourself.

[Alex Green]

The problem is that while you can argue semantics and book mechanics til you are blue (Paul Blue...007!) in the face it doesn't change the fact that you can split your dice pools on a multiple action normally. It just does not make sense that being able to act faster and or slow time would keep you from doing the same thing. i just don't buy it, especially from the perspective of what is really happening IC and the staples of the genre...

You are talking about Temporal Manip, which has a different set of rules, I was talking about Quick.

I can't remember which book it is in or where, but somewhere it does talk about Novas making dozens of attacks per second in the XWF...

Unfortunately it's not only flavor text but hype talk (from a civilian). As I recall the action was literally to fast for him to see and he also mentioned one of the novas twisting into a fractal pattern or a mathematical contract or something like that.

Alex you're adding extra factors into this scenario, so of course the outcome is going to be different. In my example I listed the pertinent stats of each character….

Very true, but by the pertinent stats it’s a gross mismatch with speedy having spent 17 more nova points on his combat stuff. I was simply pointing out that if the characters balance, Rabbit can get a lot more bang from his buck than Speedy did. While the extra 17 points Speedy spent weren’t wasted, they also weren’t terribly efficient.

Still, I guess you just can't turn off that Tactical Prodigy enhancement of yours can you? ::tongue

True again.

The problem with saying that the book doesn't say you can is that it also doesn't say you can't.

And the book doesn’t say you can’t use the action re-action from firing a Q-Bolt to launch yourself into the air, but that doesn’t mean we should allow it to be a cheep sub for flight or Q-Leap.

The by-the-book reading leads to sanity, the not-by-the-book-but-maybe-implied reading leads to insanity. Sanity should be the default.

If you say that Quick can be used for multiple actions, the rules work great and there's no problems other than the fact that the ST might have to deal with more actions per turn than he or she would like.

Again true, but if it is allowed, then that’s a house rule. To be clear, I have no problem with house rules. But usually it’s a good thing to mull them over to be sure they are what you want, and this one appears to be introduced almost accidentally.

…As for things like "splittable actions", there's no such thing. Your character's initial, natural action isn't splittable, but you can choose to take more than one separate - non-splittable- action per turn if you choose, it's just that it subtracts from your character's dice pools. So what happens when you suddenly have *two* dice pools?

Keep in mind that, as you said, there is no such thing as “splitable actions”, and no rules to allow actions to be split. Ergo, you can’t split Quick. You can take a multiple action, but all the die pool reductions are applied at once. All that is direct from the book and mentioned above with page numbers.

That's the real question, and unfortunately, that's where the book has no definite answers. Quickness states that it grants an extra physical action, but that it's penalized by -2 to your initiative, and you retain your full dice pool for both actions. So now you essentially have two seperate dice pools for the same skill roll.

Again, like you said, there’s no such thing as a splitable action. Actions can’t be split, and nothing in Quick says it can be used as a second multiple action. Allow it if you wish, but acknowledge it’s a house rule.

So here's a question for everyone: what if I take x number of multiple actions with my natural action, dividing up my pool as per the rules listed, and then I take my action from Quickness and declare I'm going to use it for going "full defensive" as per the rules on pg. 244 of the core book?

Those rules and actions conflict with each other. Fully defensive is a multiple action, Quick is a single extra action. Now you could do the opposite, go fully defensive and then use Quick to make an attack.

...if you're going to use Totentanz as an example of why Multitasking can't be combined with Quickness, then I'm going to hit you with Radu Slaniskovich…

Totentanz obviously had a different author/editor than Radu Slaniskovich. Not that “T” is without flaws, as a engineer he really should have the Engineering skill, but “T” is obviously built by someone who put some thought into it. And it isn’t just “T”. NONE of the sample characters, even the over the top speedsters, do this. What, out of the 125-160 cannon characters with stats, no one thought to build a speed type? Even when the character specializes in getting extra actions? Are only PCs are allowed to use this, or is the rule’s hole illusionary?