Aberrant: 200X - [Proposal Thread] Powers, Enhancements and Rules

[Firanis 'Fi' Flux]

Okay, I think you're under-estimating the value of Mental Link. Anatoly already mentioned that you'd have to reestablish Psychic Link each time you form a clone and for each clone. Also, Psychic Link allows only communication. It doesn't let you use their senses or speak through their mouth - that would be more like a limited ESP and/or Telepathy. Mental Link gives you an incredible advantage to coordinate and shouldn't be dismissed. It is even enhanced by Clone Fodder, giving you even more points of view all at the same time.

As for having their own Quantum pools... just no. Saying 'It's pretty irrelevant argument considering Enhancement combinations spread across 7 Clones can effectively 'ping' any nova to death,' is not a valid argument. By that logic, why should someone without Clone have to spend any quantum to use Disintegrate when someone with M-Str doesn't have to spend a thing?

You spend 3 quantum for a Clone with Power Manifestation and you suddenly made 13 quantum which lets you spend it on anything, Warp, Healing, etc. You just made a net gain of 10 quantum.

And let's consider this. What's stopping someone with Clone from taking Quantum Leech? Make a Clone and suck it dry, effectively giving himself infinite Quantum, he just has to spend a turn or two at it. It's not like his clones are going to resist him, are they?

I read the Clone power in Aberrant d20. I'm curious, since you mentioned using that as one of your references, why didn't you just leave the techniques closer to what they have? Empathic Connection instead of full-blown Mental Link, and Power Manisfestion shares Quantum pool, doesn't give you extra quantum to spend.

Even then, I'm not sure an altered Clone power is necessary beyond what they have in the APG.

As is, I vote Nay.

[Christian H. Blues]

Quote:

And let's consider this. What's stopping someone with Clone from taking Quantum Leech? Make a Clone and suck it dry, effectively giving himself infinite Quantum, he just has to spend a turn or two at it. It's not like his clones are going to resist him, are they?

Only real technical flaw I could see in your arguments is this one. Clones would effectively share a quantum signature, so would be immune to one another's powers.

[WhiteRain]

As for baselines being a threat, I have two words for you: Project Proteus.

It may have some Novas working for it, but Proteus has innovated an awful lot of tech usable by baselines which will kill a lot of Novas stone cold dead.

If you don't think baselines are a threat, you're one Nova who's going down HARD when they come for you.

I also say Nay.

I'm a longtime lover of the Clone power, and I know more than most how obscenely powerful it is even at its basic level. If you can't break it in half you're not thinking hard enough.

My one quibble with it has already been mentioned: You never, ever need or want more than one dot in the power. If six of you aren't enough for the job, seven or eight probably won't be either, and I do think it might be worth looking into ways to make your investment pay off at higher dot levels.

[Contessa]

Originally Posted By: Katya

Okay, I think you're under-estimating the value of Mental Link. Anatoly already mentioned that you'd have to reestablish Psychic Link each time you form a clone and for each clone. Also, Psychic Link allows only communication. It doesn't let you use their senses or speak through their mouth - that would be more like a limited ESP and/or Telepathy. Mental Link gives you an incredible advantage to coordinate and shouldn't be dismissed. It is even enhanced by Clone Fodder, giving you even more points of view all at the same time.

A fair point. This power was the one used in a TT game, one not comprised of power gamers and individuals who needed constants babysitting to make sure they didn't abuse the rules (and no, I'm not saying anyone here needs babysitting, it was a turn of phrase). As such this write up can be tweaked if necessary and I'm willing to do that.

If players feel the Empathic Link is closer, than I'm willing to use that and convert it into a d10 equivalent. It's not a big deal either way.

Psychic Link however, you all know I could slap enough weaknesses and strengths on that power to work around any cost or distance. I'm trying to do this the diplomatic way without having to break out the cheese.

Contessa already has ESP as well. With enough work I could make it travel 6000 miles too so most of the OP arguments seem to be 6 in 1 and half a dozen in the other.

Quote:

As for having their own Quantum pools... just no. Saying 'It's pretty irrelevant argument considering Enhancement combinations spread across 7 Clones can effectively 'ping' any nova to death,' is not a valid argument. By that logic, why should someone without Clone have to spend any quantum to use Disintegrate when someone with M-Str doesn't have to spend a thing?

You spend 3 quantum for a Clone with Power Manifestation and you suddenly made 13 quantum which lets you spend it on anything, Warp, Healing, etc. You just made a net gain of 10 quantum.

Another fair point, and I can see where it's open to abuse. The 1/2 Quantum pool can be removed easily if that's your recommendation. It's a moot point though it seems, again, 6 in 1, half a dozen in the other. Using the very same APG you guys are standing your ground with I can create specific clone power arrays that they could each activate for under 3 quantum points. With an increase in Node creating an invincible 7 clone army is not difficult and can be done in under 25 quantum points. Since no one ever actually spends quantum points (you guys have noticed that, haven't you?), the invincible arrays would seem practically free.

Quote:

And let's consider this. What's stopping someone with Clone from taking Quantum Leech?

The fact that I'm not a power gaming cheese hound and I have a bit more respect for the players of 200X than to attempt such a jerk maneuver.

Oh, and all the clones Q-Sigs are the same, so they'd be immune to that sort of cheesery. I'd already taken that into account since it came up for discussion at the table once.

Quote:

Empathic Connection instead of full-blown Mental Link, and Power Manisfestion shares Quantum pool, doesn't give you extra quantum to spend.

Because I used the original book for the write up when converting it to d10, I'd completely forgotten that that the APG had changed the quantum pool thing over. My players never had any issues with abuse or problems with 4-8 clones running around all with 13-20 points of quantum to spend. It didn't occur to me to change it.

Again, the 1/2 quantum pool is easily fixed.

Quote:

Even then, I'm not sure an altered Clone power is necessary beyond what they have in the APG.

It's necessary because I'd like to have my character possess powers that are separate and distinct. All I've done with clone (beside the few tweaks that need to made) is take everything the power already gives you (multiple clone, powers, trait reductions, etc) (Oh, and trait reductions were actually removed from the APG, so the clones are even more powerful in that version for less cost) and separated them into techniques that either add to your ability to make clones, or removes the penalties applied to your clones so by the time you've reached 5 dots in the power you can (finally) create perfect clones that possess a complete suite of your powers and abilities for almost a negligible cost.

That's why I want it, because I don't like the idea of having full spec clones at only a single dot.

'Bait n Switch' - The original write up I had already included this technique, called 'Mirror Image'. I figured complete and total life transference from one clone to another to escape death would be to over powered and cheesy for 200X. Who would have thought it would be the 50 mile telepathy that everyone would for nuts about and scream that I'd need Quantum 6 for that. Huh.

Guess I'll just swap out the Quantum 6 'talk only to you clones telepathy' 'extra' for the 'Quantum Signature, escape death any time you please' Quantum 5 'technique'. Works for me. I'm sold.

[Contessa]

You know what Ein, never mind, I'm scrapping it.

It's just not worth the headache of dealing with these guys.

[Anatoly]

Quote:

The fact that I'm not a power gaming cheese hound and I have a bit more respect for the players of 200X than to attempt such a jerk maneuver.

But you not doing it does not preclude someone else from doing it. And if it can be done, it will be done at some point.

Quote:

'Bait n Switch' - The original write up I had already included this technique, called 'Mirror Image'. I figured complete and total life transference from one clone to another to escape death would be to over powered and cheesy for 200X. Who would have thought it would be the 50 mile telepathy that everyone would for nuts about and scream that I'd need Quantum 6 for that. Huh.

Guess I'll just swap out the Quantum 6 'talk only to you clones telepathy' 'extra' for the 'Quantum Signature, escape death any time you please' Quantum 5 'technique'. Works for me. I'm sold. smile

If this were to become a technique - and mind you that Ein jokingly referred to it after I made an off-hand list of general options to illustrate the difference between an Extra and a technique - it also means spending Quantum to make the jump and a roll/action like Teleport, because a technique that isn't automatic requires it, as usual.

Other than that, it's basically a reworked Teleport with a limitation that it can only take you to the position of a Clone, and puts the Clone in your spot.

It can save your life and has great versatility, but the roll and Quantum spend make it no better or worse than Teleport, just unique - fit for Clone.

And please, "go nuts about and scream" is just unnecessary, and sarcasm is still a scalpel, not a bludgeon. If you propose a change, expect feedback - in favor or not. You may have noticed we're trying to make suggestions here that allows your idea to work as you'd like without some of the flaws we see.

You can say all you want you are not a "cheesehound" or "powergamer" but if this version of Clone is introduced, it is available to everyone potentially - as Ein said. So we have to consider not just you, but others as well.

Is it possible to at least be civil to each other without the snarky comments? I can't speak for the others, but I want to work with you to make changes so that we can all agree with it.

Edit:

Quote:

You know what Ein, never mind, I'm scrapping it.

It's just not worth the headache of dealing with these guys.

Okay, fair enough. Point taken.

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Anatoly

But you not doing it does not preclude someone else from doing it. And if it can be done, it will be done at some point.

No, it wouldn't. Myself, Ein, nor Shae would ever consider permitting someone to attempt such a thing, that's why we're here.

Now, I'm going to take a moment to preach here for just a second, and I'm going to be honest with all of you. I'm not going to ask you to not be offended, but I will ask that you take what I say with a grain of salt, because it's not meant to be offensive, just blunt.

Now, what I've seen both as a player and a moderator, is a whole lot of 'no, because my opinion is this and that's that'. Let me be honest, Bombshell's 'Performance Prodigy' I found to be nothing more than the players excuse to give himself an automatic 3 successes for one quantum point and nothing more. That was my personal opinion. Personally I feel the idea was a pretty lame one.

Does that mean it's a bad enhancement? Does it mean it was a bad idea? Does it mean that because I didn't like it I should just toss it aside and say no? No, it doesn't.

As both player and a moderator it's my responsibility to look at the proposal and tell myself: "I may not like this idea, but this player does. How can I help them to make this work so that they may have fun with this and it not affect my, or other players' fun?"

It is not my place to say: "I really don't see a need for this. Nope."

This is an open forum with the rare open mind of allowing people to submit custom content. It does not belong to any one of you but to all who frequent here. If you are going to deconstruct something don't take it apart without offering a means for helping that fellow with putting it back together in a way that might work (thank you Katya for actually providing useful feedback).

Now I'll address an issue with sarcasm that Anatoly felt the need to point out, since I am Contessa's player I don't want anyone to feel that since I'm posting with my Mod account that I'm trying to abuse power or flex on anyone, I just don't feel like switching accounts just to address this.

With comments like:

1. if you think this is overpowered then I'm calling you all addled

You failed to repost the smiley I put at the end of that sentence. I'm sure this was just a slight oversight on your part, but in case it needs to be said, the smiley meant I was trying to joke with you guys.

2. if you think baselines are a threat then your nova is seriously weak and probably shouldn't leave the house

Again, this was meant to be tongue in cheek, unless your nova really is weak, in which case I'd recommend they stay indoors.


3. Did you guys not actually read anything?

This was honesty, some of what I was reading honestly made me feel like the post was skimmed more than it was actually read based on how the sum of the feedback didn't really seem to be helping me, just breaking it apart and leaving it in pieces on the floor for me to pick up. Nothing was actually helpful so I had to ask. It wasn't meant to be rude, but it certainly was sarcasm.

In the future guys please keep in mind that we're here to help each other make this place successful and fun. Look at all ideas objectively and separate your personal feelings on the matter (frankly no one cares if you feel no one should ever have more one dot in clone, that's your opinion and has no bearing on assisting other players) in order to construct ideas that all of us may use to have a good time with.

At this moment, the Clone idea is sidelined.

[Anatoly]

Revenant, I fully agree with you on the part of not picking things apart without offering suggestions - and this thread is full of suggestions from several people.

I thank you for your candid explanation of your sarcasm. About the smiley - I didn't copy it no. Everybody posts these after a sarcastic message when they want to say something, and then put down a smiley so later they can say "it was a joke". Considering your other comments, I believed this was the case. I apologize since it appears I was incorrect at that.

It's not like it was broken and the pieces left for you. I am sorry you felt that way - but there was enough options offered, other ideas, so I am not of the opinion you met a brick wall. The suggestions in your last post just before you canned the idea incorporated a lot of ideas and corrected some errors you yourself admitted you hadn't come around to correcting yet - and that's how concepts are shaped.

I will make sure to in the future take your sarcasm more as a joke than a passive-aggressive ad hominem attack to protect your backyard. In return, could you please not try and use your sarcasm to belittle others?

Then we can start getting back to the stories - and maybe some day when you feel like picking up the Clone idea again, maybe you'll see the suggestions in the others posts besides Katya's.

P.S about the Mod account and so on - I don't know about others but I look at things on their own. Whether you are a mod or not, player or not, smart or not, martian or not. In the end, we're all people behind usernames with pretty avatars - the text is all we got to work with.

[WhiteRain]

Rev, you still posted an aggressive tone as Contessa and a completely different one as Rev. That comes off... weird?

People's opinions were asked, and those opinions were given. Absolutely this board is awesome for allowing people to generate their own content, but isn't it meant to be based on consent? That's why the proposals thread exists.

I see the argument that 'no mod would allow someone to break x power' but if x power is broken, that's that. If I came up with the fluffiest, cutest character in the world but proposed a power that was 100% pants-on-head retardedly broken I'd expect to be turned down, regardless of whether or not it's 'In Character' or 'fun'.

My point is that nobody's applying double standards here. It's simply that you've proposed something that - frankly - nobody who's looked at it likes. Not so far, anyway. Don't think Ein gave an opinion.

It's the same as when I asked Ein if Chang could have the 'Body Language' Mega Perception enhancement and the Prehensile Hair body modification out of the fan companions. He turned them down because he thought them too powerful, even though I've not come close to putting Chang in a situation where they would have been too powerful in practice.

Originally Posted By: Revenant

(frankly no one cares if you feel no one should ever have more one dot in clone, that's your opinion and has no bearing on assisting other players)

I have to assume that was aimed at me. Regardless, the point is that as written I think the power suffers from enormous diminishing returns above one dot, ones that don't actually justify the expenditure to get 2-5 dots in it, and I think that there's definite grounds for trying to do something to improve it.

So actually I'd say it does have bearing on assisting other players since it's identifying a weakness in the power that could maybe be looked at.

[WhiteRain]

I propose something needs be done about the 'Smackdown' attack in the main book.

As written, the attack is pure, unadulterated garbage.

To use a smackdown you need to spend a point of willpower, spend a FULL TURN winding up to use it (during which you are allowed only a single dodge action), and then make an attack at +2 difficulty.

And what do you get for this?

A single hit at +6 dice and automatic knockdown unless the opponent rolls athletics at +3 difficulty. The grapple smackdown is slightly more appealing, because the opponent is in a hold and less likely to just kill you.

I know it's a minor thing, but this has always bothered me. At the very least I'd say the willpower roll and dodge limitation needs to be removed to make it even faintly viable. Even in the book the Smackdown is meant to be limited to those characters who have really learned how to beat the crap out of people... but there's no incentive to ever use this move when a simple kick does strength +4 damage and you can throw... what, six of them a turn with multitasking and quickness?

Thoughts on ways to make it less shit?

[Warren Verona]

I removed Smackdown from the TT game here at the house. It was replaced with each character inventing a 'Special Move' that permitted them an opportunity to attack by using their powers in a manner that was unique to them.

Fianna would suddenly find her self mauling her opponents with a series of claw attacks and throws combined with incredibly agile quantum leaps and aerial throws to the ground.

Revenant would Whisper into the shadow of his enemy with quantum imprint and proceed to use their greatest attacks with startling proficiency against them.

The original Contessa was a master of Magnetic Master and would use the environment's metal to startling effect in a volley of metal based attacks. She collapsed a building on a foe once by simply ripping out all the metal plumbing with a single mighty heave.

These attacks broke the laws of what the character was capable of in order to enhance the drama and action of the stories we were playing in. Each PC had one, and could spend XP to learn more, signature move that permitted them certain aces of up their sleeve when certain conditions in a conflict were met.

I also attempted something like this for Mutant High, here at the boards, but the game was cut short by my lack of time to run it.

It always worked far better than the 'Smackdown' technique and ironically, we still called it a 'Smackdown' when the PCs used their signature moves.

[Eingar]

I've gotta say, I liked the idea of this when Rev told me about it in Mutant High, and think that it could work in 200x, especially given the narrative style of the game.

Yes, it means more work for the Mods and players, to design the signature moves and keep track of how they'd work, but it's a shit-ton better than the 'Smackdown' they have in the book.

I designed a signature move for Einherjar - the 'Mjolnir's Kiss' that's in his character profile. I'm reasonably happy with it, other than the round-to-charge-up thing. Add some Shockwave and Thunderclap to that and it's a hell of a real Smackdown.

[WhiteRain]

Well I was thinking of a signature move for Reese Kincaid, but need to see what the rules would be for it first.

[Bombshell]

The Signature Move is very flavorful, but I think it is unnecessary with how we changed the Power Max rules. Also, without concrete build rules for the Signature Moves, it would take the mods and players extra effort to balance each and every one against the other.

Further more, a Smackdown is a purely physical attack. It even follows the other attacks in a logical sequence. Strike (Diff +0; Damage Str +2) -> Kick (Diff +1; Damage Str +4) -> Smackdown (Diff +2; Damage +6). Maybe the point of Willpower isn't necessarily worth automatic knockdown (or near enough), but that's something we can work on.

For now, I'd say, leave Signature Moves as fancy descriptions of Power Max, which they basically are. At the moment, building them seems rather ambiguous and this is an Open World game - the more house rules we add, the harder it is for new people to know how to build a character that falls within the guidelines.

[WhiteRain]

Oh the damage scales fine and I'd be fine with that, but it no way comes close to justify a point of willpower, and a full turn of charging in which you can perform ONE dodge.

And it's rather different to power maxing; power maxing is changing how a power you have is expressed in one instance, this is really just another type of physical attack, a maneuver.

[Justin OOC]

I like the Signature moves from Mutant High and definitely wouldn't mind seeing them here.

[Evo]

I'd love to see the Signature moves. I think I could come up with some cool one for Evo using Bodyshift.

[Fahrenheit]

I'm with Bombshell for the same reasons explained in her post.

[WhiteRain]

Well we seem to have a bit of a split on this one, so might as well get to putting forward some actual proposals.

What are the rules from Mutant High? Not familiar with them myself.

re: it being harder to make a character; I don't see how this one would contribute. The Smackdown is something that very few characters would use - hence why none have to date. It's not like we'd be changing a core mechanic the way power maxing did. However I do think it's worth looking into for those characters and players who want to come up with something dramatic and familiar, as Evo and Ein have both said.

[Bombshell]

There were none as far as I know. Some of the PCs had signature moves that cost various amounts of quantum and/or time/actions and let them pull something like a Limit Break from Final Fantasy (or any number of other games). Designed by the ST and the player together (I think).

[Christian H. Blues]

Proposal: Incorporation Extras

OM-NOM-NOM!

Voracity

This Extra requires Biological Amalgam. With it the nova can absorb the the target much faster once Incorporated, effectively dealing up to (Stamina + Mega Stamina + Incorporation) levels of Lethal damage each round (player's choice) which cannot be soaked by un-Inspired targets at all. In the case of the Incorporating nova having the Cannibalism Extra (see below), this heightened rate of absorption can be soaked by Inspired targets with a Stamina + Resistance roll.

Cannibalism

This Extra requires Biological Amalgam, and allows the nova to Incorporate Inspired targets with the following caveats:

• The victim must be succesfully targeted with a Hold maneuver, which must be maintained for a full round afterwards before Incorporation can be used.
• There has to be physical contact. Powers like Forcefield can prevent this, meaning they need to be neutralised first.
• If the targeted nova has the Hardbody Enhancement or the Impervious Extra on any defensive power, that nova must be subdued - either having been emptied of Quantum, be suffering the shutdown effect of Eclipsodol, knocked out/asleep, the Impervious power Disrupted, or Mox'd into submission.
• If the targeted nova has Bioenergy Buffer they are immune unless dormed, suffering Eclipsodol shutdown or under a similar effect that robs them of access to this ability, since Bioenergy Buffer specifically protects the individual integrity of the nova's quantum field from parasitic style attacks.
• Inspired targets get to add their Quantum/Psi/Inspiration to their Willpower roll to resist Incorporation as automatic successes. If they are rendered somehow helpless or knocked out, though they may not be able to roll Willpower, they still get those automatic successes.
• Unless the Incorporating nova has the Voracity Extra (above), Inspired targets are absorbed at a rate of 1 Health level a day, no faster. If the victim can successfully Resist Voracity, they are still absorbed at this slower rate until they break free or are released.
• If the Incorporation is successful, the absorbed nova loses 1 dot of powers like Psychic Shield, Mental Invulnerability or similar per Health level drained with regards to resisting the neural link only. If the victim is released, their powers are back in full effect. No other mental abilities, such as Dominate, can take advantage of this whilst the victim is absorbed, only the neural link effect of Incorporate. Example: C.H. absorbs Psyche (Psychic Shield 5) and manages to drain 3 health levels from her using Voracity. The Proteus agent's Psychic Shield is now reduced to 2 dots, making her more susceptible to C.H absorbing her memories. If he absorbs 2 more of her health levels, the Shield is gone altogether.
• Willpower rolls to gain control of the Incorporating nova's body can be made as normal, assuming the absorbed person is awake/aware to make the conscious attempt.
• An absorbed nova cannot activate or use any of their abilities or powers once absorbed. Their bodies are held in a form of stasis, and that includes their Nodes.
• In the case of two novas with Incorporate w/ Biological Amalgam and Cannibalism facing off, they may attempt to overpower one another. In this instance, there is no Resistance roll from either nova. They roll Stamina + Incorporation as normal, adding their Quantum rating as auto successes to their roll. The winner absorbs the loser: remember that 4 net successes must be scored to use the loser's health levels to heal your own with.

[Eingar]

Issue for discussion:

Mega Dexterity Enhancement: Soft Fist (The New Flesh)

System: A nova with Soft Fist can make a Dexterity + Martial Arts roll as an automatic action whenever he is the target of a close combat attack, provided that the nova is aware of the attack. If he gains more successes than his attacker does on his attack roll, the nova can redirect the attack onto either the attacker or another assailant. The attack will inflict both the normal amount of damage and +1 die for every extra success the nova gains on the initial Dexterity + Martial Arts roll. This enhancement normally has no quantum cost. This changes when attempting to redirect the attack of a nova with Mega-Strength and/or Mega-Dexterity, as the character will have to spend 1 quantum point per redirection of an attack from such a nova. Also, attacks dependent on a nova’s own quantum powers (Claws, Immolate, etc.) cannot be redirected to harm the attacking nova without use of the Disimmunize power.

Click to reveal.. (Chat Log)

Chat Log taken today and quoted:

[The Bomb] 10:29 pm: Heya Guys

[The Bomb] 10:29 pm: Yeah, about Soft Fist, I have a tiny issue with it.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:30 pm: What's it do?

[The Bomb] 10:31 pm: As an automatic action, you can roll a Dex+ Martial Arts action against a close combat attack.

[The Bomb] 10:31 pm: If you succeed, you can redirect the attack to the attacker or someone else, and increase the damage by 1 die for each extra success.

[The Bomb] 10:32 pm: Against someone with M-Str or M-Dex, it costs 1 qp to use.

[Jeremy] 10:32 pm: Bomb: You have to be aware of the attack

[The Bomb] 10:32 pm: But still, it's like infinite amounts of Quickness, letting you do better than dodge against melee attacks

[The Bomb] 10:32 pm: You have to be aware to dodge an attack too.

[Lobby]: Long6 has entered at 10:33 pm

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:33 pm: Hmm. That does sound shockingly broken.

[Jeremy] 10:33 pm: and powered attacks (Claws, Immolate etc.) are excldued

[The Bomb] 10:33 pm:     

[The Bomb] 10:33 pm:     

[The Bomb] 10:34 pm: That's still not enough of a restriction to let you do it as many times as you want.

[Jeremy] 10:34 pm: at least without Disimmunize, but that's a power exceedingly rare

[The Bomb] 10:34 pm: And it doesn't even take an action.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:34 pm: I suppose it does go on the principle that Novas will always come at you from different angles.

[The Bomb] 10:34 pm: You do have to declare it or anything.

[Jeremy] 10:34 pm: then the smart foe will fight from range or some other trick

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:34 pm: It should replace the full defense option.

[The Bomb] 10:35 pm: Or at the very least, be only usable once per round.

[The Bomb] 10:35 pm: What's Full Defense?

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:35 pm: As written I'd say it should replace the Full Defense option; it's a direct upgrade.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:36 pm: Basically full defense means you can't launch any attacks that round but can defend an unlimited number of times, taking a +1 penality per attacker.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:36 pm: From what you're saying you could actually attack while using this.

[Jeremy] 10:36 pm: and also, against the right foes, it doesn't help much

[The Bomb] 10:36 pm: Yes.

[The Bomb] 10:37 pm: But still, against those it does work against, it's too much

[The Bomb] 10:38 pm: It's too broken of a defensive power.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:38 pm: And not even a power. Just an enhancement.

[The Bomb] 10:38 pm: WR - you can use it whenever you want, as long as you are aware of the attack

[The Bomb] 10:39 pm: And it's better than Quickness.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:39 pm: I think the main problem is that you can turn their attack back on themselves.

[The Bomb] 10:39 pm: Instead of only being able to to another physical action, you can defend against a melee attack AND attack the attacker with it.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:39 pm: It wouldn't be so bad if not for that.

[The Bomb] 10:39 pm: No, that's fine.

[The Bomb] 10:40 pm: It's that you can use it as much as you want.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:40 pm: Well no, not really.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:40 pm: Think about it this way, Bomb. Jason fights Jason 2, but Jason 2 has Empty Force.

[The Bomb] 10:40 pm: As I said before, it's like an infinite amount of Quickness.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:41 pm: In order to avoid getting Empty Forced Jason one would have to launch one attack and no save no defenses to get her hit through.

[The Bomb] 10:41 pm: What the hell is Empty Force?

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:41 pm: While Jason 2 can happily split her actions as many times as she likes without it affecting Empty Force.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:41 pm: It's a bit of philosophy out of China.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:41 pm: Aikido, T'ai Chi etc.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:41 pm: I can see what it's trying to represent.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:42 pm: But the implementation sounds mechanically broken.

[The Bomb] 10:42 pm: Oh, so can I

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:42 pm: Just because of how Aberrant combat breaks down.

[The Bomb] 10:42 pm: But agreed, mechanically broken.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:43 pm: Any opinions, Ein? This seems to have been around for a while.

Jeremy points to (Away) tag

[The Bomb] 10:44 pm: I saw the Enhancement before (it's in the New Flesh), but missed how abusive it could be.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:44 pm: Well anyone else in convo for that matter.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:44 pm: We missing something?

[Jeremy] 10:44 pm: I have no issues with it myself

[The Bomb] 10:45 pm: That's because you want it.

[Jeremy] 10:45 pm: Don't we all?        

[The Bomb] 10:45 pm: Okay. Think of it this way then.

[Jeremy] 10:45 pm: I know your point, guys

[The Bomb] 10:45 pm: Can I have Quickness, limited to melee attacks. I just have to buy it once, but I can activate it as many times as I want?

[The Bomb] 10:46 pm: Would that be fair?

[The Bomb] 10:47 pm: Soft is the counterpart to that, letting you dodge as many melee attacks as you want, in addition, to redirecting those attacks

[The Bomb] 10:47 pm: (For 1 qp per action)

[The Bomb] 10:48 pm: Actually, against people without M-Str or M-Dex, you don't even have to spend qp.

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:48 pm: It seems like it needs tweaking

[WhiteRain.vc] 10:48 pm: That or I'm buying it for Reese next month     

[The Bomb] 10:55 pm: I'm buying it for Jason immediately.

[The Bomb] 10:57 pm: I think the easiest solution would be but a limit on it of once per round and you have to activate it on your turn, and it always costs 1qp. And you could buy it multiple times

like Quickness, letting you use it more than once per round.

[The Bomb] 10:57 pm: Turns it into a reverse quickness.

The issue raised is a good one. This Enhancement does have the ability to be incredibly broken as written. Sugegstions/Arguments below, please.

[Dawn OOC]

The most obvious solution to me is to put a limiter on it. I have a couple of suggestions:

1. it takes an action, requiring you to declare for it as normal and used in conjunction with Quickness and Multitasking.

2. You can only use it as many times as you have Mega-Dex.

Just some ideas.

[WhiteRain]

I think if it replaces Full Defense and specifically doesn't allow you to let someone hit themselves it's okay.

As I said in the chat, it's a direct upgrade for the Full Defense action, so I think it would keep it fluffy to have it do that.

This is meant to be reflecting martial styles like T'ai Chi, Aikido etc., it shouldn't be the sort of thing Caestus Pax would be packing. If your Nova hits first and never asks questions, I don't think he should even glance at this enhancement.

And even being able to use it as many times as you have Mega Dex is broken into a thousand pieces.

How many combat actions per turn does even the most pokey combat Nova have? 3, 4 at the most? You HAVE to split your pool unless you've sunk stupid amounts into Quickness, and you HAVE to save some for defensive actions otherwise you're relying on killing your opponent in one round.

Say I have mega dex 3; which is the minimum entry requirement for a combat Nova at 50 NP or more.

I get 3 FULL MARTIAL ARTS ROLLS against 3 of your attacks. If you split any of those pools, which you probably did, I have a distinct advantage, and I basically gain 1-3 additional attacks that turn, using your own attacks against you. And if you're front loaded i.e. you hit harder than you defend, which MANY Novas are, it becomes an instant I win button.

Oh yeah, and I get to attack on top of all that.

It just shatters the Aberrant combat mechanics. However if you use it as part of a Full Defense it's not half as ridiculous.

First, you can always abort a combat action. So if someone realizes they can't touch this son of a bitch who's standing back and countering everything, they can spend willpower to avoid just walking headfirst into a brick wall.

Second, they aren't going to be getting extra attacks.

I think either the Empty Forcer should be restricted to using it as part of a Full Defense, and I also think it shouldn't allow the Nova to redirect the attack to the person who launched it. Anyone else nearby is fair game.

If that's too much of a nerf, perhaps it could be extended to cover all close combat attacks, quantum enhanced or not.

[Kazuo]

First off, I think, as someone who's effectively the new guy around here (even though I'm technically a recently returned old-timer), I need to ask: what has - and has not - been approved from The New Flesh?

I had noticed that many of the PCs in 200x were toting around powers or enhancements from TNF, so I just sort of assumed that it was all good. Obviously I was wrong.

I really hate being the jerk who's got stuff on his sheet that's not approved and right now that's what I am. (Kazuo's got both Soft Fist and some of the Combat Style specialty stuff that, as I was informed just before I left chat earlier today, hasn't been approved for 200x yet either. Yay.) Which sucks.

I'm going to go remove that stuff from his sheet after I finish this post, but I still wanted to ask what's actually allowed?

Ok so, down to the discussion about Soft Fist:

Originally Posted By: WhiteRain

It just shatters the Aberrant combat mechanics. However if you use it as part of a Full Defense it's not half as ridiculous.

So, firstly, let's not get carried away. The enhancement, as written, is open to a lot of abuse and really should be toned down (and clarified) quite a lot, but it doesn't "shatter" Aberrant combat mechanics if - as the examples that have been put forward so far suggest - "Aberrant combat" is taken to mean just that: combat between two novas.

Sure, it's pretty stupid when used against the "uninspired" (to use Sprocket's favorite word for baselines), but against most "combat grade" novas it's going to cost 1QP for every single redirected attack. Against any half-way decent combat nova (i.e. against any nova who has a good reason to believe that he or she is likely to not only survive but maybe even win a fight with another nova) this is going to get real expensive real quick, since virtually every combat-grade nova has at least one dot in both mega-dexterity and mega-strength.

So, if the Soft-Fist-using nova's opponent is any good at nova-level close combat then A) they're going to have to fork out 1qp for every time that opponent attacks them (real expensive if they're defending against multiple nova opponents) and they're going to have to do so multiple times per turn, since any even half-way decent combat-grade nova can dish out a bare minimum of 2 attacks per turn and still have reserve actions to use for defense. This would get prohibitively expensive pretty quickly. It also assumes that the Soft Fist nova beats his/her opponent on the opposed roll, which is required to redirect the attack.

The real problem with the enhancement in my opinion (especially now that I'm looking at it more closely) is that it never spells out what happens if and when the defending nova's Dex + M.Arts roll doesn't beat their opponent's roll. One presumes that the attack hits, but do ties go to the defender while using Soft Fist? We don't know. Do successes on the Dex + M.Arts roll for using Soft Fist help to negate Attack successes in the same way that successes on a Block or Dodge roll would? We aren't told. Can one use this enhancement even against opponents armed with Melee weapons? Even when the defending nova isn't armed? Again, we don't know.

These are the problems that I see with the enhancement.

As far as how to tone down what it can do; just charge 1qp for every attempt to redirect an attack and state that it counts as a regular Defensive Action. That way, if a nova wants to use it, they need to have actually planned for and declared some number of defensive actions in their turn, which they can use with Soft Fist if they choose to do so, but which will also cost them 1qp per attempt to redirect an attack (the 1qp charge is a fair tradeoff for the ability to potentially inflict damage with your defense rather than merely not getting hit). If you have no defensive actions and/or no quantum points, then you can't use the enhancement.

As far as the rest of it goes: I say that, when using Soft Fist, ties (equal numbers of successes from both parties) should go to the attacker; Successes rolled for using Soft Fist should negate attack successes in the same way that a normal Block or Dodge roll would; Using this enhancement against attacks with Melee weapons or an opponent who can otherwise deal Lethal close quarters damage should require the ability to Parry (meaning that they can't just defend against the attack bare-handed).

That's my quick and dirty take on this.

[Kazuo]

Alright, my sheet's cleaned up. So now I have a related issue I'd like to bring up.

Combat Styles: should they be allowed in 200x?

I was recently asked what I thought of them and, while I answered as best I could from what I remembered, I realized that I hadn't actually studied them for a while, so I took some time to do just that. I found the various styles and their associated "Advanced Techniques" to be kind of fun, reasonably well thought out, and really couldn't find any that seemed abusive (though some did seem to be of questionable usefulness, unfortunately).

In fact, going back to the Soft Fist discussion, there's even an Advanced Technique called "Stop Hit" which does something similar to Soft Fist but with much more reasonable and non-abusive mechanics.

So, for the most part at least, I am personally for including them. They're probably not of much interest or use to novas who don't plan on putting them to full effect, but for those who do they're a fun bunch of extra little tweaks that can be added to your gunbunny or quantum-powered kung fu master.

I do think that Qi Meng bears some close looking at, since it could potentially have a big impact on any game universe it's included in. It's also the only Combat Style I haven't had time to review in close detail yet. A cursory review of it makes it seem balanced overall; while some of its techniques are potent, they all seem to be offset by either prohibitive costs or serious limitations or both (such as the inability to buy Quantum up past 5 without taking the "Climbing the Mountain to Heaven" technique, at which point new ranks in Quantum cost rank x 16 rather than rank x 8).

Still and all, it's sort of a biggie, so I'm of the opinion that it should probably only be allowed with Moderator approval and/or a general consensus.

[The Mariner]

Qi Meng is a paradox. It's like Teras but not... It's a strange path and provides a different RP opportunity. I don't see how it would be any more powerful than a Terat of equal footing.

The only issue is that of Canon. If the majority of this board followed Qi Meng, the Noght of Long Knives would probably never happen or happen without consequence as simply put Terats are a small minority.

I think the canon details should be weighed before approval or denial. Although in my opinion since 200X is about at some point deciding our own fate, Qi Meng would be a goot starting point. So I would allow it.

[Kazuo]

The primary problem I saw with including, as far as continuity or canon was concerned, was that that TNF implies that Qi Meng is not widely practiced until after 2015 (if it's ever 'widely' practiced). Given that that's 4 years out from where 200x is at, it doesn't seem very applicable to this forum. At least not right now.

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Kazuo

As far as how to tone down what it can do; just charge 1qp for every attempt to redirect an attack and state that it counts as a regular Defensive Action. That way, if a nova wants to use it, they need to have actually planned for and declared some number of defensive actions in their turn, which they can use with Soft Fist if they choose to do so, but which will also cost them 1qp per attempt to redirect an attack (the 1qp charge is a fair tradeoff for the ability to potentially inflict damage with your defense rather than merely not getting hit). If you have no defensive actions and/or no quantum points, then you can't use the enhancement.

This looks like a reasonable way to handle it. However, even if the defender has no opportunity to defend an attack (i.e. they use two defensive action to use soft fist and the attacks never actually happen) then the QP should still be spent, respective of whether or not the enhancement did anything. It's like missing with a power, you spend the points, fail the roll, but you still use the juice regardless.

Also, I don't think this enhancement should be usable on novas who possess a mega-strength higher than the defending nova without spending a point of willpower as well per the rules for beating out mega-strong novas.

Without the WP, you are struck by a force that, even with all your training, knocks you off your feet. (This keeps some of the more cocky bastards in check. Ninja's don't use the force of Hulk's punches against him, they get squashed.)

Quote:

As far as the rest of it goes: I say that, when using Soft Fist, ties (equal numbers of successes from both parties) should go to the attacker; Successes rolled for using Soft Fist should negate attack successes in the same way that a normal Block or Dodge roll would; Using this enhancement against attacks with Melee weapons or an opponent who can otherwise deal Lethal close quarters damage should require the ability to Parry (meaning that they can't just defend against the attack bare-handed).

These are good points.

Soft Fist, if used, should be considered, and used, in place of a block. Meaning that if you go with this option and the results aren't quite you'd hopped for (i.e. failed to overcome your attacker) you still paid a QP and at least are able to reduce the power of the attack by XX amount.

The defending nova should have some means of parrying lethal damage in order for this enhancement to be effective against weapons that inflict lethal damage (swords, knives, nova hands).

Also, I don't think the damage added from the redirect or deflection cannot 1. Exceed 5 dice. or 2. Add more dice than the original attacker achieved. The nova has to still work with what they're given after all.

This enhancement also should not work against opponents who are using Density Decrease 5. The attack simply passes through the defense and any attempt to grab or redirect results in grasping air.

Also...

The expanded source books are filled with OP garbage. They provide a ton of 'I own you' with no real defenses against any of it.

What I'd like to see are a few Brawl Enhancements, since the way Aberrant is geared all you need is Mega-Dexterity and Martial Arts and no Brawling Nova will ever harm you. Frankly that's ass, since most of the XWF guys use a mixture of both and they seem to win and lose in equal portion.

Anything Mega-Dexterity related when added into Aberrant combat pretty fudges the rules.

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Christian H. Blues

Cannibalism

This Extra requires Biological Amalgam, and allows the nova to Incorporate Inspired targets with the following caveats:

• The victim must be succesfully targeted with a Hold maneuver, which must be maintained for a full round afterwards before Incorporation can be used.
• There has to be physical contact. Powers like Forcefield can prevent this, meaning they need to be neutralised first.
• If the targeted nova has the Hardbody Enhancement or the Impervious Extra on any defensive power, that nova must be subdued - either having been emptied of Quantum, be suffering the shutdown effect of Eclipsodol, knocked out/asleep, the Impervious power Disrupted, or Mox'd into submission.
• If the targeted nova has Bioenergy Buffer they are immune unless dormed, suffering Eclipsodol shutdown or under a similar effect that robs them of access to this ability, since Bioenergy Buffer specifically protects the individual integrity of the nova's quantum field from parasitic style attacks.
• Inspired targets get to add their Quantum/Psi/Inspiration to their Willpower roll to resist Incorporation as automatic successes. If they are rendered somehow helpless or knocked out, though they may not be able to roll Willpower, they still get those automatic successes.
• Unless the Incorporating nova has the Voracity Extra (above), Inspired targets are absorbed at a rate of 1 Health level a day, no faster. If the victim can successfully Resist Voracity, they are still absorbed at this slower rate until they break free or are released.
• If the Incorporation is successful, the absorbed nova loses 1 dot of powers like Psychic Shield, Mental Invulnerability or similar per Health level drained with regards to resisting the neural link only. If the victim is released, their powers are back in full effect. No other mental abilities, such as Dominate, can take advantage of this whilst the victim is absorbed, only the neural link effect of Incorporate. Example: C.H. absorbs Psyche (Psychic Shield 5) and manages to drain 3 health levels from her using Voracity. The Proteus agent's Psychic Shield is now reduced to 2 dots, making her more susceptible to C.H absorbing her memories. If he absorbs 2 more of her health levels, the Shield is gone altogether.
• Willpower rolls to gain control of the Incorporating nova's body can be made as normal, assuming the absorbed person is awake/aware to make the conscious attempt.
• An absorbed nova cannot activate or use any of their abilities or powers once absorbed. Their bodies are held in a form of stasis, and that includes their Nodes.
• In the case of two novas with Incorporate w/ Biological Amalgam and Cannibalism facing off, they may attempt to overpower one another. In this instance, there is no Resistance roll from either nova. They roll Stamina + Incorporation as normal, adding their Quantum rating as auto successes to their roll. The winner absorbs the loser: remember that 4 net successes must be scored to use the loser's health levels to heal your own with.

That's an awful lot of things to remember for an extra. Should I have a legal team review all those bullet points before purchasing this?

While I'm not opposed to it, it seems awfully wordy.

[Eingar]

I went wordy with it for the very simple reason that I did want to sell it, to be blunt.

Cannibalism as an Extra is one of those proposals that provokes a knee-jerk response from players. When I asked in the open in chat yesterday about the proposals, the immediate response from one player was to the tune of:

"Well... I'm okay with Voracity."

...and...?

Nope, that was it apparently.

There's an instinctive shying away some people get when something new comes along that might 'devalue', inconvenience, or kill their character, particularly in a fairly horrible way. And there is also the sensible need to pick apart the proposal, pointing out all the ways it's broken and overpowered and doesn't take into account various defenses that might exist against it.

I simply cut to the chase, tried to anticipate the arguments *I* would make in this instance, and then applied them to the writeup. "What about Hardbody? What about Forcefields? What sort of touch-contact is needed?"

The mechanics among us will (I hope) be satisfied that I'm not trying to throw a broken power into the mix and that I've thought it through. The Worryworts (see below) can run out and buy bioenergy buffer and relax. C.H. gets to eat novas who he thinks need to be eaten. Hopefully that's a win-win scenario. Apart for the eaten novas, but then they're probably Proteus douchebags anyway.

Anyway, sorry for the legalese-style writeup. I just wanted people to be able to examine the power as I did.

Click to reveal.. (The Common Worrywort)

Taken from Dragon Magazine #144 "Field Guide to Convention Ornithology."

Common Worrywort

(Paranoidus certainus)

The gaming birds known as the Worryworts (genus Paranoidus) are most commonly found in role-playing habitats, although the board-game and miniatures areas have their shares of them. All Worryworts appear to have a symbiotic attachment to their characters or gaming pieces (even to those assigned to them 10 minutes ago). The Worrywort lives in constant fear that some harm will befall its character. While all good role-players suffer for their characters, the Worryworts suffer with them.

For example, the Common Worrywort is certain that the referee is out to get his character or the character’s entire party. Common Worryworts find it impossible to negotiate with NPCs, and they conduct dungeon adventures like bomb-squad missions. The pining calls of these birds attract Windsprinters, Slashers, and Spoon-billed Kibitzers like bees to honey. Occasionally, though, particularly intelligent specimens of Worryworts are encountered which are actually capable of formulating workable plans.

[Kazuo]

Originally Posted By: Revenant

This looks like a reasonable way to handle it. However, even if the defender has no opportunity to defend an attack (i.e. they use two defensive action to use soft fist and the attacks never actually happen) then the QP should still be spent, respective of whether or not the enhancement did anything. It's like missing with a power, you spend the points, fail the roll, but you still use the juice regardless.

Honestly I don't think that's necessary or fair. It occurs to me that 'Soft Fist' is basically the close combat version of 'Deflect/Redirect' (the Level 1 power from the Teragen sourcebook). It makes sense (to me at least) that being able to deflect and/or redirect things like bullets and quantum bolts should be a power, while it also makes sense that doing the same with somebody's fist or foot should probably just be handled as an enhancement, but otherwise I see no reason to change how the one works versus how the other does.

To that end, I'll point out here, though all those with the Teragen book can simply flip to pg. 126-127 and read for themselves if they choose, that 'Deflect/Redirect' does not require you to spend points ahead of time - either you use it (and pay 1qp while doing so) or you don't (and pay nothing). The caveat, if that's what you want to call it, is simply that you must have an available action in order to use it.

A couple of other things about 'Deflect/Redirect' that I both liked, and that are much clearer than the wording for 'Soft Fist': 1) using it is considered a standard Power Block defensive maneuver; 2) net successes on the defensive roll become successes in a notional attack roll against the defending nova's intended target; 3) damage from the redirected attack uses the same dice pool as the original attack, no more, no less; 4) to use the power the nova must not only be aware the attack is coming, they must have some means of perceiving it (important point! and one not yet made in the case of 'Soft Fist'); the power doesn't work against attacks with explosive or area effects or against mental powers (I don't think 'mental powers' will ever apply against close quarters attacks, but it's possible for a nova's punch, kick, tackle or slam to have area or explosive effects and I don't think 'Soft Fist' should be allowed to defend against them if so)

Originally Posted By: Revenant

Also, I don't think this enhancement should be usable on novas who possess a mega-strength higher than the defending nova without spending a point of willpower as well per the rules for beating out mega-strong novas.

Without the WP, you are struck by a force that, even with all your training, knocks you off your feet. (This keeps some of the more cocky bastards in check. Ninja's don't use the force of Hulk's punches against him, they get squashed.)

I like this, though I think the Knockdown should be handled either normally, or with an increased difficulty to the Athletics or Martial Arts check to remain standing.

Originally Posted By: Revenant

Quote:

As far as the rest of it goes: I say that, when using Soft Fist, ties (equal numbers of successes from both parties) should go to the attacker; Successes rolled for using Soft Fist should negate attack successes in the same way that a normal Block or Dodge roll would; Using this enhancement against attacks with Melee weapons or an opponent who can otherwise deal Lethal close quarters damage should require the ability to Parry (meaning that they can't just defend against the attack bare-handed).

These are good points.

Soft Fist, if used, should be considered, and used, in place of a block. Meaning that if you go with this option and the results aren't quite you'd hopped for (i.e. failed to overcome your attacker) you still paid a QP and at least are able to reduce the power of the attack by XX amount.

The defending nova should have some means of parrying lethal damage in order for this enhancement to be effective against weapons that inflict lethal damage (swords, knives, nova hands).

Also, I don't think the damage added from the redirect or deflection cannot 1. Exceed 5 dice. or 2. Add more dice than the original attacker achieved. The nova has to still work with what they're given after all.

This enhancement also should not work against opponents who are using Density Decrease 5. The attack simply passes through the defense and any attempt to grab or redirect results in grasping air.

Agreed. As I pointed out above, if we model this enhancement more closely on 'Deflect/Redirect', then damage would never, ever exceed that of the original attack, and I think that's entirely fair, personally. The Density Decrease 5 issue is a good one, with the abilities of novas possessing it being able to hit you with a momentarily 'solidified' fist while still otherwise intangible. I agree with your recommendation, though I also think that this is getting into that 'common sense must be applied here' territory that none of us really like to deal with. For instance, what if the attacking nova has 'Spines'? Should the 'Soft Fist' nova still be able to redirect the spiney nova's attack? Well, I say 'yes they should be able to', personally, but I also think that the redirecting nova should still take the 'up to 10 dice' of damage that 'Spines' can inflict on anyone who attempts to grapple with their owner. Then there's the issue of things like 'Immolate' (which might or might not be inflicting Lethal damage, but which count as an entirely separate attack from the immolating nova's punches or kicks) or the new body modification from TNF, 'Adhesive Skin'.

Basically, what I'm saying is, you can't account for everything and, at some point, simple common sense is one's only resource.

Originally Posted By: Revenant

Also...

The expanded source books are filled with OP garbage. They provide a ton of 'I own you' with no real defenses against any of it.

What I'd like to see are a few Brawl Enhancements, since the way Aberrant is geared all you need is Mega-Dexterity and Martial Arts and no Brawling Nova will ever harm you. Frankly that's ass, since most of the XWF guys use a mixture of both and they seem to win and lose in equal portion.

Anything Mega-Dexterity related when added into Aberrant combat pretty fudges the rules.

And it is at this point that I'd like to bring folks' attention back to the Combat Styles stuff.

There's actually a couple of Advanced Techniques that help to somewhat level the playing field between Brawlers and Martial Artists. None of them completely level the field, unfortunately, but it's at least a step in the right direction.

Again, I think the Combat Style rules are mostly harmless, in some cases not all that useful actually, and in no case that I can find so far abusive. Qi Meng is the odd duck out - I don't think that it's abusive either but I also don't think it should just be approved carte blanche for all and sundry - and I think maybe it should be left to one side for the time being. But then, this is a discussion thread, so by all means express your opinions on this!

[Eingar]

Originally Posted By: Revenant

Originally Posted By: Kazuo

As far as how to tone down what it can do; just charge 1qp for every attempt to redirect an attack and state that it counts as a regular Defensive Action. That way, if a nova wants to use it, they need to have actually planned for and declared some number of defensive actions in their turn, which they can use with Soft Fist if they choose to do so, but which will also cost them 1qp per attempt to redirect an attack (the 1qp charge is a fair tradeoff for the ability to potentially inflict damage with your defense rather than merely not getting hit). If you have no defensive actions and/or no quantum points, then you can't use the enhancement.

This looks like a reasonable way to handle it. However, even if the defender has no opportunity to defend an attack (i.e. they use two defensive action to use soft fist and the attacks never actually happen) then the QP should still be spent, respective of whether or not the enhancement did anything. It's like missing with a power, you spend the points, fail the roll, but you still use the juice regardless.

Also, I don't think this enhancement should be usable on novas who possess a mega-strength higher than the defending nova without spending a point of willpower as well per the rules for beating out mega-strong novas.

Without the WP, you are struck by a force that, even with all your training, knocks you off your feet. (This keeps some of the more cocky bastards in check. Ninja's don't use the force of Hulk's punches against him, they get squashed.)

Quote:

As far as the rest of it goes: I say that, when using Soft Fist, ties (equal numbers of successes from both parties) should go to the attacker; Successes rolled for using Soft Fist should negate attack successes in the same way that a normal Block or Dodge roll would; Using this enhancement against attacks with Melee weapons or an opponent who can otherwise deal Lethal close quarters damage should require the ability to Parry (meaning that they can't just defend against the attack bare-handed).

These are good points.

Soft Fist, if used, should be considered, and used, in place of a block. Meaning that if you go with this option and the results aren't quite you'd hopped for (i.e. failed to overcome your attacker) you still paid a QP and at least are able to reduce the power of the attack by XX amount.

The defending nova should have some means of parrying lethal damage in order for this enhancement to be effective against weapons that inflict lethal damage (swords, knives, nova hands).

Also, I don't think the damage added from the redirect or deflection cannot 1. Exceed 5 dice. or 2. Add more dice than the original attacker achieved. The nova has to still work with what they're given after all.

This enhancement also should not work against opponents who are using Density Decrease 5. The attack simply passes through the defense and any attempt to grab or redirect results in grasping air.

I think that between them, and while I was sleeping on the problem, Kazuo and Revenant have pretty much tidied up Soft Fist. If a re-drafted proposal for the Enhancement could be submitted taking into account these points, I'd be happy to vote for it.

Originally Posted By: Kazuo

Combat Styles: should they be allowed in 200x?

I was recently asked what I thought of them and, while I answered as best I could from what I remembered, I realized that I hadn't actually studied them for a while, so I took some time to do just that. I found the various styles and their associated "Advanced Techniques" to be kind of fun, reasonably well thought out, and really couldn't find any that seemed abusive (though some did seem to be of questionable usefulness, unfortunately).

In fact, going back to the Soft Fist discussion, there's even an Advanced Technique called "Stop Hit" which does something similar to Soft Fist but with much more reasonable and non-abusive mechanics.

So, for the most part at least, I am personally for including them. They're probably not of much interest or use to novas who don't plan on putting them to full effect, but for those who do they're a fun bunch of extra little tweaks that can be added to your gunbunny or quantum-powered kung fu master.

I do think that Qi Meng bears some close looking at, since it could potentially have a big impact on any game universe it's included in. It's also the only Combat Style I haven't had time to review in close detail yet. A cursory review of it makes it seem balanced overall; while some of its techniques are potent, they all seem to be offset by either prohibitive costs or serious limitations or both (such as the inability to buy Quantum up past 5 without taking the "Climbing the Mountain to Heaven" technique, at which point new ranks in Quantum cost rank x 16 rather than rank x 8).

Still and all, it's sort of a biggie, so I'm of the opinion that it should probably only be allowed with Moderator approval and/or a general consensus.

After giving these rules a look through once more, I can come out in favor of including them. The majority should be allowed to decide, however, and so I'll be putting the Combat Styles up for a vote, and the nova-fu arts (Golden Gunplay and Qi Meng) up for seperate respective votes.

It's been argued that if these rules had been in force earlier, character's X, Y and Z would already have multiple multiples of XP invested into the styles and their associated Merits, whilst the new characters or the returning ones with XP stored have the advantage.

To smooth out this hump, I'd like to propose that if the player population votes in favor of Combat Styles, the rules come into force at the beginning of July in order to provide a level field. Only XP earned from 1 July 2011 onwards can be spent on Combat Styles. Does that seem fair?

Originally Posted By: Revenant

What I'd like to see are a few Brawl Enhancements, since the way Aberrant is geared all you need is Mega-Dexterity and Martial Arts and no Brawling Nova will ever harm you. Frankly that's ass, since most of the XWF guys use a mixture of both and they seem to win and lose in equal portion.

Where Brawl seems to fall down is the dice pool. There's no Mega-Dice associated with Brawl, making it the only skill in Aberrant thus afflicted. As Rev points out, this is ass. Three simple solutions are:

Let Mega-Str be added as dice to the Brawl pool, same as M-Dex is added to Martial Arts. A strong, fast cross or python-like grapple are as hard to evade as the Hairy Palm technique of the ancient art of Fook Yu.

-or-

Simply move Brawl into the Dexterity tree alongside Martial Arts, leaving Might all on it's lonesome up there. With no friends. And smelling faintly of cabbage.

-or-

As above, but eliminate Martial Arts, call the overall skill Brawl, and leave it to the players to decide (possibly with help from the Combat Styles) exactly how their character kicks arse.

[Evo]

Quote:

Where Brawl seems to fall down is the dice pool. There's no Mega-Dice associated with Brawl, making it the only skill in Aberrant thus afflicted. As Rev points out, this is ass. Three simple solutions are:

Let Mega-Str be added as dice to the Brawl pool, same as M-Dex is added to Martial Arts. A strong, fast cross or python-like grapple are as hard to evade as the Hairy Palm technique of the ancient art of Fook Yu.

-or-

Simply move Brawl into the Dexterity tree alongside Martial Arts, leaving Might all on it's lonesome up there. With no friends. And smelling faintly of cabbage.

-or-

As above, but eliminate Martial Arts, call the overall skill Brawl, and leave it to the players to decide (possibly with help from the Combat Styles) exactly how their character kicks arse.

I agree we need to fix Brawl, but I would like a refund of skill XP for those who purchased both (like me), because either way we do it, that makes one or more of the invested skills obsolete.

As for the method of fixing, in Argonauts, Kaz moved Brawl to Dexterity based and merged it with Martial Arts. I think that would simplify things tremendously, as it's a simple matter to define what it means for each character in fluff terms.

Consequently, I vote for Combat Styles.

[Eingar]

Originally Posted By: Evo

I agree we need to fix Brawl, but I would like a refund of skill XP for those who purchased both (like me), because either way we do it, that makes one or more of the invested skills obsolete...

Not so. Some maneuvers are definitely Brawling. A bearhug is a Brawl maneuver, a haymaker is a Brawl manuever, a tackle is a Brawl maneuver... and so on.

If we go with the first option I provided, which is my favorite solution personally, this make both Brawl and Martial Arts viable for a rounded combat character.

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: Einherjar

Let Mega-Str be added as dice to the Brawl pool, same as M-Dex is added to Martial Arts. A strong, fast cross or python-like grapple are as hard to evade as the Hairy Palm technique of the ancient art of Fook Yu.

I have only one issue with that idea. That allows Mega-Strength to add to both attack and damage. While I have a PC who would benefit greatly from this ruling (Sean, who has no Mega-Dex, nor probably ever will because he's not that agile) I don't want to see it being unbalanced the other way.

Perhaps a way to use Ein's favorite proposal is to not use damage overage on Mega-Strength strikes. That leaves something for the Mega-Dexy PCs to have - the ability to add 1-5 dice to their rolls, which may have Mega-str behind them, too.

[Eingar]

I'd be happy with that. *nods*

[The Mariner]

Originally Posted By: Kazuo

The primary problem I saw with including, as far as continuity or canon was concerned, was that that TNF implies that Qi Meng is not widely practiced until after 2015 (if it's ever 'widely' practiced). Given that that's 4 years out from where 200x is at, it doesn't seem very applicable to this forum. At least not right now.

In the book's canon that is what it seems. But "widely" practiced means it's gone beyond the first diciples of the art form. Between now and 2015, I could see about five characters here learning Qui Meng as a "First Generation" Qi Meng diciples. All are those with some interest in martial arts.

There is wiggle room in your interpretation.

But, you gotta find The Sifu first. Good luck on that.

[Bombshell]

I go to sleep and then the Proposal Thread explodes... What was I thinking. Let's get started...

Mega-Strength and Brawl:

I personally favour rolling Brawl into Martial Arts. Strength doesn't really help with accuracy, though I can see it being harder to block/parry them. Admittedly, using this option does alter some of the benefits from certain Combat Styles.

The problem I see with rolling M-Str for attacks means it makes it too good for both hitting and damage. People who go with Martial Arts and pump of M-Dex are choosing to give up damage (because they have to split their focus between M-Dex and M-Str) for accuracy. Punch for Punch, M-Str 4 would be vastly superior to M-Dex 4 (not counting other powers in conjunction and such).

If people really want to see rolling M-Str, I'd propose, like Dawn said, they can't get overage successes (which compared to Auto-Successes for M-Str is pretty minor), and further, M-Str dice are counted as just regular dice, not Mega. Hitting hard isn't the same as hitting accurately.

Conversely, instead of giving them a bonus to attack rolls, we can instead say people lose 1 die per point of difference between M-Str of the Attacker and Defender to block or parry M-Str attacks.

Combat Styles:

Looked over this last night, and considering the XP you have to invest at the cost of more Quantum powers, it looks alright. At least the regular-ones do.

The Nova Styles Golden Gunplay and Qi Meng need to be reviewed on their own. Golden Gunplay gives you a LOT of options to choose from, the reasoning seeming to be, because only Novas (and some other inspired beings) can get it, which isn't much of a limitation in an Aberrant game.

Knee-jerk reaction to Qi Meng was... No. But I read it more and the path to using it is difficult and expensive. If we included it, I don't see it ever really changing Canon. Getting the benefits for it (reducing Taint and going over Q5) is even harder than Chrysalis, and are the requirements (and XP). Though like Chrysalis, I'd expect someone to have a good story following this path, not just, "I found the Sifu and started training."

That said, I'm not saying it should be in or not, just mentioning I couldn't see it affecting canon that much. I don't think practitioners of Qi Meng would proselytized and if they did, they'd turn Qi Meng into Tae-bo, ie aerobic fluff.

XP only starting from July to spend on Combat Styles seems reasonably fair to me, though maybe we could gloss over the training times, so those wanting to spend the XP don't have to wait even longer - they could have been training previously.

Soft Fist:

Biggest issue with this power was that for 1 qp, you got a free action that let you dodge, in ADDITION, that dodge let you attack. But if it takes a standard defensive action (Power Block) maneuver, then it seems a lot more balanced. Rev's idea about needing WP to block someone with higher M-Str than you looks reasonable too.

Overall, Kazuo and Revenant looked to have done a good job ironing out the issues and I would like to see an updated proposal on Soft Fist from them (either or both).

Voracity:

I don't see a big problem with this per se, just that the increase is really massive. IIRC, Incorporation on living things does between 1 Health Level per scene to 1 Health Level per day. I would suggest, leaving them working on the same time scale, but increasing the damage as you proposed, (Stamina + M-Stamina + Power Rating) per scene. That's still a definite improvement, without having instant ingestion.

Cannibalism:

When you first mentioned this in Chat, I was afraid, but it does look like you did a very good job covering a lot of the bases. The only problem I have is that the main power seems a little unclear to me and I read it multiple times.

From what I can see, all you need is one success, and the guy is boned, there is no way to break free except for the Incorporator to do it. You've started ingesting him and he's lost control of his body (I suppose this is an issue for baselines as well, but I figured, hell, it's only a baseline. ). But even conjoined, can the Ingester and the Ingestee be attacked separately? Maybe as a way to convince the Ingester to let their friend go. Or if the Ingestee wins the opposed Willpower roll and gains control of the 'body' can he make the Ingester let him go?

If they can't be attacked separately, what happens? Since while the Ingester is ingesting the Ingestee, the Ingestee still in theory has Health Levels. If the ingestee has been glomped by the Ingester and is inside him, will any attacks only hit him and not his victim?

And can the Ingester be Disrupted off? How about Biomanipulation (though no one can have that yet)? Is there any other way to get the Incorporator off besides him wanting to do it, willingly or not?

To my surprise, I'm not actually opposed to Cannibalism, I'd just like a little more details on the previous Biological Amalgam extra.

[Eingar]

Quote:

Or if the Ingestee wins the opposed Willpower roll and gains control of the 'body' can he make the Ingester let him go?

Yes.

Quote:

If they can't be attacked separately, what happens? Since while the Ingester is ingesting the Ingestee, the Ingestee still in theory has Health Levels. If the ingestee has been glomped by the Ingester and is inside him, will any attacks only hit him and not his victim?

It's a merging of cellular structures, but I would say that the ingestee would be unaffected by attacks on the ingester *unless* they were Disintegrate, Bioentropy Storm, or something similar that causes large scale cellular disruption.

Quote:

And can the Ingester be Disrupted off? How about Biomanipulation (though no one can have that yet)? Is there any other way to get the Incorporator off besides him wanting to do it, willingly or not?

I'd say Disrupt can turn off Incorporate, which means that yes, anyone currently ingested would be 'thrown up'. Biomanipulation would possibly be able to forcibly seperate the two, but the ingester would be able to fight it.
Dominate, The Voice ("let him go"), and similar command powers could compel the nova. He could likewise be Persuaded to do it by the victim's friends/protectors.

Quote:

Voracity:
I don't see a big problem with this per se, just that the increase is really massive. IIRC, Incorporation on living things does between 1 Health Level per scene to 1 Health Level per day. I would suggest, leaving them working on the same time scale, but increasing the damage as you proposed, (Stamina + M-Stamina + Power Rating) per scene. That's still a definite improvement, without having instant ingestion.

I'd be happy with this if people feel it's better.