Aberrant RPG - EON is not a Table-top

[Centimane]

This topic is about the xp we get for playing in PbP games, and as you may have guessed from the subtitle, I'm wondering where it's at.

In table-top you get between 1-7 xp per session (according to the rules in the Aberrant core book), and this is okay because you're covering lots of action and lots of time in any semi-productive gaming session. This generally works out to between 4-28 xp per month, though most will probably be getting more like 12-20.

For PbP I'm going to use myself for the examples of how much you get on average. In Trans-D I've been playing as Zhenglai for just over 3 months and I've gotten 7xp in that time. I've been playing James over in the Prometheans game for about 1 week less time and I've gotten 4xp so far (though much of that time was in the Prologue, which BT didn't give xp for, so let's say I've been playing James for 1 month). This means that I'm averaging just over 2xp per month for Zhenglai, and 4xp per month for James.

Now this sounds reasonable because it takes much longer to cover an equal amount of game-time as a single session of TT can cover, so technically if we go by accomplishment (how much my character's accomplished in-game) I'm getting about the same amount of xp as I'd get in a TT game except much more slowly.

Here's my problem with this situation. I don't think xp should be given out solely for how much my character has accomplished or how much time "in-game" has passed, I think I should also be given some xp for the amount of REAL-time and effort I put into playing my characters as well. The majority of us who play on these boards are on-line here pretty much every single day for at least a few hours, some of us are on-line practically all day long. It takes a continuing, almost daily commitment to keep the games moving along at a steady pace. And 2 months is 2 months, whether it's playing a TT game once a week or a PbP game everday, it's the same amount of time and essentially the same amount of commitment for the players (and the ST) in both cases.

However, in a PbP game, I'm apparently getting only about a third to a tenth (depending) of the xp I'd get for playing in a TT game. Same amount of commitment, much less reward at the end. And yes, I know that one could say that the story itself is the reward so why complain? And as it happens, both BN and BT do an outstanding job as STs, so that's a good point. But in that case, why get xp at all? Why not just play for the story and keep the Traits you have now indefinitely? Because that's no fun, that's why. We all want to see our characters improve and grow in power or skill as well as in personality.

For my part, I'd like to buy at least 2 or 3 of the things on my character's shopping list before a year has gone by (preferably more, really, but I don't want to grow too fast either since IC time is moving slower). I don't see this as unreasonable or munchkin-like, I just want to buy that next dot in M.Sta or Telepathy. Maybe up my Q-level before 2009. Unfortunately, even at the Promethean rate of 4 xp per month, it's going to take me 4 months just to buy the 3rd dot of James' q-bolt. As opposed to a TT game where it'd take probably 1 month (less if I did real well for myself). In Zhenglai's case it'll take 7 months just to get his 3rd dot in Pretercog. And in both cases, that's if I buy nothing else at all in the meantime.

And this right here is the core of my problem. In order to be a productive part of the IC gaming experience I have to stay actively involved on a more or less daily basis. Every day I get on-line and check to see whether I need or want to post something in one of the IC forums. Table-top STs *wish* they had that much commitment from their players. But TT players can go from Q 4 to 5 in about 2 months, I'm probably gonna have to save all year to do the same thing. And that's a year of REAL time. Never mind if only 2 months (or less) of game time has passed, I've still spent a year playing that character, and pardon me for saying so, but I want to see more benefit at the end of that time than the ability to spend another 2 or 3 months saving up for the level 3 power I wanted but didn't have a high enough Q for.

Before I finish my rant I do want to say that this is in no way a slam against either BlunNinja or Blue Thunder who are the STs in the two Aberrant IC games on this forum. You guys both do an outstanding job at telling your stories and I'm thankful to be allowed to participate. All I'm discussing here is the amount of xp that gets handed out on average per month, and expressing my opinion that it's too little. I have zero problems with the actual storytelling that's been going on in either game.

My personal feeling is that xp should be handed out at a set time each month, and that the base or Auto- xp should be slightly to noticeably higher than the 1 auto-xp listed in the core book (how much higher would depend on the power-level of the game in question). On the other hand, I do like BN's xp at the end of the chapter set-up, so who knows?

What do the rest of you think?

[BcAugust]

Hmm, I'm not sure. My group tends to be very xp heavy (for example, out of three current games, one gm gives 6xp a session, one gives 5/6 automatically, and our low power game gives 2-4 xp for a session) A set amount of xp per month might be a solution, though each gm would have to have the ability to add and subtract per month for each player.

... a out there solution would be, if you trusted your ST, would be to do a constantly updated shopping list. That gives a chance for people to get "higher" powers sooner, while giving a chance for you to gain skills and the like that you've actually been using in game too. Then again, if the game has a lot of "downtime", having an idea what your character would be working on would be helpful. Maybe offer "training" xp, like Mage has, for weeks/months of study?

For those who don't have or never used Mage, that's basically free xp(I don't remember what the exact requirements were, but I never thought it was that tough), that you can use to pay up to half the cost of what you've been training for, representing your focus on it. The drawback, obviously, is that you can't use the training xp for anything but that particular Attribute/Ability/Power. And you can't use it for things like Quantum or Willpower.

[metaphysician]

Only vaguely related, but an idea:

Instead of giving the players XP, and they determine what to spend it on, have the players give a statement of intent, so to speak: a list of things the character is working on developing, or would seem likely to develop.

The GM than tracks "XP" so to speak, and brings up IC opportunities to develop a skill or such periodically ( when they've added as much XP to that entry as needed to buy it, and when it fits into the plot ). When this happens, the player then adds another entry on the development list.

The advantage to the GM is that he gets a greater say not just on what the PC develops, but in what manner, and can more easily incorporate into the plot. The advantage to the player comes in because the GM hands out more net "XP" due to the greater finesse of control; my suggestion would be extra awards based on conduciveness of in game events towards developing a given characteristic.

Example: Elite-Man's player decides he's going to work on increasing Strength, Resources, and Teleport. The session is well role-played with good interaction and such, and is overall a success, so the GM awards generally for each player 6 XP, which are evenly divided into the three categories. In addition, the GM notes that Elite-Man did alot of hand to hand combat and heavy lifting, so he gives an extra point to Strength. The adventure also had Elite-Man completing a major mission, with a big contract payout and happy customers, so he gives an extra point towards Resources. However, Elite-Man barely used Teleport at all during the mission, and only for trivial actions that could have just as easily been done other ways. So, no bonus there.

I'm thinking sort of a more formalized way to handle the "improve what you use" idea, to better incorporate advancement into play.

[BcAugust]

The issue with that runs into the same thing that comes up with the old CoC system in practice, though less so. In case you're not familiar... you can only raise a skill if you attempted it that session, so people tried to jam everything into a session... though this sounds less likely, if you keep the list at three or four items.

Two other things, if I saw this. I can imagine someone trying to keep the big ticket items on there all the time(Quantum, mainly, though a few powers might be there too.) That could likely be stopped with a rule that an item can only be on the list after raising until you've gotten through an entire list again(ie, until you've bought at least four more items). Plus, it needs a way to switch out items for something more urgent or that keep getting brought up in play. Maybe a 1xp cost to replace an item on your list, it keeping the xp until it can move on again?

[Alex Green]

For Quantum, simply don't allow bonus points.

For the other big ticket items, who cares? They are taking up a bonus slot, and if they don't match what the character does then he's punished for them.

Example: Paul Blue's List

1) Increase Weather Manip (25%)

2) Increase Healing (25%)

3) Increase Quantum (25%)

4) Misc (25%)

The Misc catagory lets me spend on things that might be useful in play, but (obviously) isn't going to be getting bonus points. Maybe it should be required. Quantum is both big ticket and non-bonus, but there it is.

The other two are both big ticket items. This might actually be a mistake on my part, because if I'm going to be wracking up bonus points maybe they should go to Mega-Chr or Mega-Int (either of which would probably more useful than Healing or Weather Manip). Worse, the powers I typically use in game are normally Healing and Bodymorph, Weather Manip doesn't come up a lot. So this current session so far I'd have passed up bonus points on Animal Mastery (he used it to locate the cave), and probably will get no bonus points at all for Weather Manip.

Translation: Normally Paul won't be getting bonus points for WM, and he would be negating bonus points that he could be getting for Bodymorph or Animal Mastery.

[BcAugust]

Hmm, or perhaps auto do 1 xp per session to Quantum? Then again, if I set up a list system for a game...

1)Main Power Raises

2)New Power/Skill

3)Skill/Attribute Raises

4)Misc(Willpower, Quantum pool, Enhancements and the like, changing fastest)

5)Other Power/Mega Attribute Raises

So that the character would actually be spreading a fair chunk of xp over his entire sheet... But would be getting at least 6 xp a session and likely more, depending on what he does. Advantage: well rounded. More likely to get skills and enhancements. Disadvantage: Slower upward power curve, some concepts would require tweaks(More xp to skills, or doesn't use skills, but a lot of powers)

Hmm, for my character, Artemis

1. Nature's Mastery (Shapeshifting previously, I used it every session, but it's now 5)

2. Invisibility to Quantum Sense

3. Strength

4. Body Mod Health levels

5. Mega Wits

Would be how the sheet would look.

[BlueNinja]

Now this sounds reasonable because it takes much longer to cover an equal amount of game-time as a single session of TT can cover, so technically if we go by accomplishment (how much my character's accomplished in-game) I'm getting about the same amount of xp as I'd get in a TT game except much more slowly.

<snip>

For my part, I'd like to buy at least 2 or 3 of the things on my character's shopping list before a year has gone by (preferably more, really, but I don't want to grow too fast either since IC time is moving slower). I don't see this as unreasonable or munchkin-like, I just want to buy that next dot in M.Sta or Telepathy. Maybe up my Q-level before 2009. Unfortunately, even at the Promethean rate of 4 xp per month, it's going to take me 4 months just to buy the 3rd dot of James' q-bolt. As opposed to a TT game where it'd take probably 1 month (less if I did real well for myself). In Zhenglai's case it'll take 7 months just to get his 3rd dot in Pretercog. And in both cases, that's if I buy nothing else at all in the meantime.

IC reasons of progression is why I keep the XP where it is - and it's faster (in terms of IC time) by almost double compared to the tabletop game I was in in Fresno, where you earned 1-3 XP a week.

Instead of giving the players XP, and they determine what to spend it on, have the players give a statement of intent, so to speak: a list of things the character is working on developing, or would seem likely to develop.

The GM than tracks "XP" so to speak, and brings up IC opportunities to develop a skill or such periodically ( when they've added as much XP to that entry as needed to buy it, and when it fits into the plot ). When this happens, the player then adds another entry on the development list.

That is, almost exactly, the advancement method used in the Amber DRPG system. The main difference is that in Amber, you don't know what your attributes are once they've been raised. You put things down on a "wish list" that will be purchased in the order you have them written down (though you can change your list at any time) and for each item, how much Bad Stuff (think negative XP that manifests as constant bad luck) you're willing to take for each item. Honestly, I think it's great for Amber, and I keep wish lists for the PCs I play to keep myself focused, but while I'd recommend it for my players, I don't want (as a ST) to have to keep track of wish lists for 12 characters for forums games, because wish lists tend to change every time XP gets handed out.

[Centimane]

First off, let me say thanks for all the quick responses. I didn't read a single bad suggestion in here. And I do kind of like the Wish List idea, though I can also see BN's point about it being a hassle for an ST to keep track of.

Second, I've had another day to think about what I'm looking for with this hypothetical xp system, and I think I'm ready to expound a little further on my ideas.

For obvious reasons I want to up the Q level of my characters, but the thought that I'm basically going to have to save up for a year or more without buying anything else at all just doesn't leave me with a happy feeling. The only reason a player ever wants to up their q-level is to enhance their gaming experience (more overall power, and a wider selection of powers to choose from, who doesn't like that?), but if I have to wait for a year or more then what's being enhanced exactly?

Mind you, I don't want to Zhenglai (over in Trans-D) to be a Q6 psychic god with 5 dots in Telepathy, Domination, E-Manip, Warp and Pretercog, with Mastery 1 on his Warp and Domination, and M.Per, M.Man and Char at 6 dots with 5+ enhancements for each one by this time next year. Or even this time 2 years from now. The reason for this is that 1 year of PbP play is not nearly enough for me to feel like I'd earned all of that (not by half). But in *3* years I wouldn't mind having some of that, though even then I'm not sure I'd feel right about having everthing I just listed (cuz that's damn powerful). In 3 years time, regardless of how much IC time has passed, I'll still have devoted parts of 1,461 days to playing Zhenglai online which means that I don't feel the least bit bad about expressing my desire for him to be at least half again as powerful as he is right now in all areas. I don't think that's greedy, unreasonable, or even vaguely munchkin-like. Maybe that's just me.

So let's look again at a TT game, and let's assume that this particular game averages 4xp per session (that's neither high nor low, so it's a good average). This means that this troop is getting about 192 xp per year. It goes almost without saying that this is far more than any player in a PbP game deserves in a single year, but then how much do they deserve? Let's assume that a PbP game averages 4xp per month. This means that most PbP players can reasonably expect about 48 xp per year. That's 1/4 of the TT rate *if* the players average 4xp per month. One of my characters is currently averaging 2 xp per month, so he's only getting 1/8 the TT rate. Once again, this is assuming an average weekly rate of 4xp for the TT group. For many troops this actually a bit low. Personally, I don't think that giving out as much as 6xp per month for good rp-ing is too much in a PbP game. This works out to 72 xp in a year which is is only 37.5% of the 192xp we were using as our example. That right there is enough to go from Q 5 to 6, and still have enough left over to buy a few dots in powers or maybe raise some backgrounds or abilities and buy off some flaws. Personally, I don't see that as being too much, even for PbP play.

From what I've seen, the main reason that STs shy away from handing out more xp in PbP games is that it really is kind of cheesy to have a character go from a single dot in an L3 power to 5 dots in the space of 1 IC month. That is kind of insane. But from my perspective, this sort of thing can be quite handily regulated by imposing simple rules for purchases.

Such as:

For average or low power-level games the ST says that no player may up their Q more than once for every 8-12 months. For mid to high powered games, say once every 4-8 months. (this assuming they actually manage to rack up that much xp in so short a time)

Players may only raise their powers by 1 dot every: 1 month for L1 powers, 2 months for L2 powers or mega-atts, 3 months for L3 powers. For a high powered game, lower the time frame or increase the number of dots a player can purchase in the given time frame.

Players may buy no more enhancements for a mega-att in a given month than 1/2 the level of the parent mega-att.

Players may develop no more than 1/2 their Q level in new powers in a given month (or 2 or 3 months, depending on the ST's tastes)

(all the above time frames would be real time, not IC time.)

Stuff like this prevents players from disregarding IC time, while still allowing for a freer hand when handing out xp. It also encourages diversification, which not only makes for cooler characters, but also increases the likelihood that a player will be able to find opportunities to put their character's powers to use. And as we all know, their's nothing quite so satisfying seeing your hard-earned powers or enhancements being put to good use in a story.

Okay, so now that I've expounded yet again; thoughts? Opinions? What do you guys think about these ideas? Am I being unreasonable or do my arguments have some validity?

[BcAugust]

At first glance, I'd say your system is even more complex then the wish list, with even more bookkeeping for the storyteller. And it just brought to mind one of my main complaints with WW in general, but specifically Quantum here. Everything relies on this one stat, and yet, while fairly hard to raise already with xp, it also in guidelines is said to require almost semi mystical roleplaying to advance.

Admittedly, if you are doing large stretches of time, I'd be tempted to do the "rising tide" version of Quantum, and let my players save their points for more interesting things. Quantum is, in my opinion, the most boring of things to raise in a tabletop game, simply because you do lose out on all the interesting stuff to buy (Not only powers, but skills).

Then again, calcing the numbers for my first suggestion(one auto xp a week) leads to

Quantum 1 to 2 = two months

Quantum 2 to 3 = four months

Quantum 3 to 4 = six months

Quantum 4 to 5 = 8 months

Quantum 5 to 6 = 10 months

,,

Which seems insanely fast for Quantum 5-6, but about right for the rest. Maybe double the required xp for after Quantum 5?

[SkyLion]

The wishlist idea sounded better for tabletop, at least with the examples I saw. I think Cottus really is talking about the investment of RL time into the game, and wanting to feel the same sense of weekly growth that you feel when you play in a weekly TT. I feel the same, since, like Cottus, Phoenix and many others we dont have a TT game to play in...this is it for us. For the Big P, hes never played in TT before but for those of us who have I can say I miss it too.

On the other hand, I think in many ways it can be superior...its ongoing, posts can detailed and thought out, and the mood is enhanced by splitting the IC and OOC (whereas many gaming groups I have been in find it hard to stay IC and build that intensity. every 5 minutes someone is interupting with a star wars or monty python quip...like so...!!!)

Cottus, I like your system...but it doesn't really matter what I think....We need to plead the case to the STs...

[Centimane]

At first glance, I'd say your system is even more complex then the wish list, with even more bookkeeping for the storyteller.

It would require some, certainly, but remember that this a PbP game we're talking about. Any requests for spending xp on a power have to be PMed to the ST. PMs come with dates already attached to them. From there all an ST has to do is copy and paste to a file with the character's name on it. When a character says, "hey, can I use x amount of xp to add another dot to my q-bolt?" The ST double clicks on the character's folder and checks to see when the last time they raised the level of that power was. If not enough time has gone by then the ST says "no". That's about how I would handle it. The Wish List method, on the other hand, would involve a constantly changing list of Traits for all of the characters in the ST's game, and every time the ST wanted to hand out xp, he'd have to go through every list and decide what to hand out where. Doable, but also time-consuming, and potentially confusing if you've got a player who constantly changes their mind about what they want on the list. I do still like the idea though.

But the rules I suggested were just that, suggestions. If they're too complex or whatever, then fine, ignore them. My focus is on the fact that I'm probably gonna have to play for in excess of 3 years if I want to see any significant change in my characters' power levels in either of the PbP games I'm currently playing in. Unless I min-max the hell out of xp anyway. I suppose if all I do from now until eternity is buy enhancements for my mega-atts, or develop 1-2 dots of the occasional new power, then I'll get to see something new on my character sheets. But that to me seems about as twinkish as expecting to have Q7 by September and be most of the way to my first dot of Quantum Authority by October. It bothers me that I'll probably have to save up for as long as 4 months just to raise my base Strength from 4 to 5, after which I'll have no xp left.

I don't like the situation as it stands, I'll be honest about that. And it frustrates me a bit because all I want to do is develop my character. I don't want him to be invincible, or the sexiest mofo who ever lived, or able to crack the earth's crust at a whim. I just want to expand and develop my character concept and use him to explore the cool setting that my STs come up with. But right now it'll take at least 2 years to make any serious changes to either of my characters on this board (or at least that seems to be the case based on what I've seen so far). This is what bothers me. Not the systems being used, not the question of how much IC time we're likely to cover in 2 years time. It's the fact that my characters are likely to remain largely static and unchanged for the foreseeable future unless all I do is buy low-level stuff like enhancements or a couple of dots in Sensory Shield or whatever. But if I actually want to develop the core Traits that define my character I get to sit around and wait for months and more months just to develop one or two of them. And while my character may only experience a few months of IC time, I get to experience the full expanse of Real Time, and I'll probably have put in just as much effort as I would have had I been playing a TT game for several months. Except that in a TT game I'd have earned enough xp to have raised several core Traits by a few dots a piece. Same effort, same commitment, wildly different payoffs for my characters. And I don't even get to experience as much in terms of IC events, because (as has been mentioned) a PbP game goes much slower than a TT game. So I'm getting to experience less of the IC world, I'm putting just as much time and commitment into it, and I'm getting less xp. I guess I just think there should be something to balance this out a bit, and I don't think that getting comparitively more xp (from an IC perspective) in a PbP game than in a TT game is a bad way of doing this. It's satisfying for pretty much any player out there, and it presents no real problems for the ST since the development will still be happening slowly across a span of months allowing everyone to adjust to the changes.

I mean really, if an ST wants a simple system of handing out xp while still allowing their PbP players to have a semi-decent amount of xp to play with, then all they have to do is decide on higher number of auto-xp than the standard of 1 (which I think both of the STs here have done), and from there declare that meating one of the qualifications for bonus xp also grants more than 1 xp (which, as I understand it, neither of the STs here have done). That's simple, and it'll certainly guarantee that the players get more xp. And it'll keep the xp divided across a reasonable amount of IC time as well. Mind that all I'm really saying is that this would be a simple way of handling things, not that it's necassarily the best way.

All I know is that when I play through a month and a half of posts, and then I get a PM from the ST saying that I get, say, 6xp it leaves a sense of disappointment. On the one hand I had lots of fun posting and playing and that definitely makes me want to continue. On the other hand, I really was looking forward to getting my xp reward (for a very long time...), and when I get it and it's hardly enough to buy a single enhancement, let alone buy the 3rd or 4th dot of a Trait, it leaves me feeling let down.

That's pretty much what prompted me to start this thread, and that's what I'd really like some feedback on. I'd like to know if I'm just being a goober about this or if others sometimes feel the same way? If I'm not alone in wanting to see my PbP characters develop a little more rapidly than they seem to be, then I'd like to know. And if I am the only one, then I'd definitely like to know, so I can begin the business of sucking it up and shutting up.

[SkyLion]

As may be surmised I am a fan of high level PCs. Given that I want Q6 mastery powers for most of my PCs means that I haven't spent a single xp yet and have been playing here for a year now. Considering that most STs require 5 dots in a power before maxing I just have to wait. Now..I know many people like the incremental small changes, but I like big "radiation accident" changes to happen to my PCs...neccesitating even longer wait times...if I wasn't so pleased at the starting power levels of my PCs here now (45-65 NPs...) it would be torture...of course starting higher means higher costs to advance so yeah...I could go for more regular xp...

[Blade90]

Heh, yeah actually I have been thinking much the same thing, that XP growth might be a little low, since I first started making my character. But considering Im a 'newbie' around here, I've been keeping quiet about it. Im just happy to finally be able to play an Aberrant game which I havent been able to before now. That and I can be fairly patient when I want to be. My bro (Cottus, for any of you that dont know) can tell you how much time I've spent on video games and the like leveling my characters. Unfortunately though Im not really sure what else I can suggest in the way of fixxing the problem that hasnt already been suggested.

[metaphysician]

A general complaint about White Wolf games ( though they are hardly the only offender ): you start out low end of the totem pole, and given the XP awards and costs suggested, you have little realistic possibility of ever mattering as much as the NPCs ( who all are built on hundreds or thousands of points seemingly ).

Big reason why I have no qualms about 6 XP/ session in Aberrant whatsoever.

[SkyLion]

Yeah but what should count as a "session" on a forum? The point I think is to allow for weekly advancement in the same manner as a weekly TT....

[metaphysician]

I'd say counting a week as one session would work, if you figure about as much gets done in the same time TT or online. If posting gets very active or very sparse, you could adjust.

[Centimane]

Yeah but what should count as a "session" on a forum? The point I think is to allow for weekly advancement in the same manner as a weekly TT....

Actually no. After only 3 months of PbP play over in Trans-D it's already become apparent to me that treating a PbP game in anyway like a TT game just won't work. They're too different from eachother. I would be satisfied with progression on a bi-weekly or even monthly basis. Though to be honest, I don't really care what the actual progression is (for instance BN's system of awarding xp at the end of each Episode is fine with me, I know exactly when I'm going to get the xp and I know roughly what I need to do to get my xp), what bothers me is the *amount* of xp we get at the end of that progression. Whether we get xp on a weekly basis, a monthly basis, or once every 2 or 3 months isn't as important to me as the fact that a year from right now I will probably have managed little more than increasing 2, maybe 3 of my characters' mid-range Traits, or only 1 dot of my character's core Traits, with a few very minor purchases on the side.

Averaging 2 xp per month of real time is kind of lame from my perspective as a player of a character that I like and want to see improve. Even averaging 4 xp per month isn't much of an improvement.

Look at it this way, 40 xp, if it's only spent on the first 1-2 dots of powers/mega-atts or on enhancements ends up equaling out to right around 27 nova points. But that's only if every single point of xp is spent on those first 1-2 dots (interestingly, the 2nd dot of almost anything in Aberrant is cheaper than the 1st) or on enhancements, as soon as a player starts trying to buy the 3rd+ dot in his/her powers 40 xp rapidly drops down in value until it's worth only 8-15 nova points. Now considering that I'm mostly interested in raising the traits that define my characters, and considering that those traits all have dots in them already (meaning I'm mostly interested in the 3rd-5th dots), I'm going to have to wait for the better part of a year to get the equivalent of 8-15 nova points to add to my sheet. But even that is only if I'm focusing on my powers. Those numbers change real quick if I'm trying to raise Atts and Abilities (which I am for both of my EON characters). A base ATT is (current level x 4) as opposed to a mega-att which is (current level x 5). An ability is slightly less than half the cost of a mega-att. So those 8-15 nova points rapidly turn into 1-4 nova points if I try and raise my Atts or abilities or even just some backgrounds.

Looking at all of this, I think I'd be reasonably satisfied with an average of 6xp per month, though to be honest I wouldn't mind at all if I were getting as much as 8 xp per month. I am of course talking about averages and not set dates at which a set number of xp would be given to the players. 6xp equals out to 72 for a year, which really isn't that much at all for a year's worth of play, but it does allow for a decent amount of actual advancement. 8xp equals out to 96xp for a year which allows for even more advancement. Not a tremendous, ridiculous amount of advancement, but enough so that a player will definitely notice it. Anything more than that though would only be appropriate for fast-paced, high-powered games since 10xp per month (as a for instance) would allow me to buy 2 enhancements, or 3 dots in an ability/background, a new L3 power, and so on. And since I'm not likely to have played through more than 2 weeks (very possibly less) of IC time, that's quite a lot. If the game truly is high-powered and very fast-paced then it actually wouldn't be much of a problem, but I can tell you right now that I wouldn't wantmore than 8 xp per month in Trans-D - it'd spoil the mood (for me at least). Prometheans I don't know about yet, I can't tell how "powered" that game is gonna end up being, and since we have access to Chrysalis, the numbers are altered a bit.

So yeah, I'm gonna say that 6-8 xp per month on average would leave me feeling satisfied with either of my PbP characters' development. Less than that just feels stagnant and constricting, while more than that would make me feel like I'd set a video game's difficulty level to "very easy" unless the game was very high-powered/fast-paced.

[BcAugust]

Hmm, you might be right. Me, personally, I like wish lists as an ST anyway, because they give me an idea of what the players would like to showcase. And I find them less bother then having to keep looking up things that players have done in the past. Then again, I like keeping running lists of what I spent xp on, and the flexibility is an issue for some people.

Given that I'm thinking of STing a game here(since I've gotten interest), I'm going to be watching this to see if a consensus forms. Though agreed that 6xp for six weeks is too slow for my tastes.

[Centimane]

Hmm, you might be right. Me, personally, I like wish lists as an ST anyway, because they give me an idea of what the players would like to showcase. And I find them less bother then having to keep looking up things that players have done in the past. Then again, I like keeping running lists of what I spent xp on, and the flexibility is an issue for some people.

Given that I'm thinking of STing a game here(since I've gotten interest), I'm going to be watching this to see if a consensus forms. Though agreed that 6xp for six weeks is too slow for my tastes.

Yeah, I'm not so much interested in the power level of my characters either. It's the sense of progression and development. Whether the character started out with 15 nova points or 150, I would still be saying the same thing I've been saying. In real life I never attempt anything without having the goal of getting as good at that something as I possibly can be. If I don't think I'm ever going to be particularly good at something, then I leave it to those who will be and I go find something else to spend my time on. I take the same approach with roleplaying. I don't mind much what my character's starting level is or isn't, I don't even mind starting out at a lower level than half the other players, as long as I'm going to be given the resources to improve and develop my character at a steady pace I'm happy.

[BlueNinja]

Ok, I sat down and went through the XP threads for Trans-D.

First post: Dec 20, 2005 (Sep 2, 2020)

ep 6 XP: Dec 25, 2006 (Nov 11, 2020)

Average XP/PC for each episode:

intro: 3.2

ep 1: 5

ep 2: 7

ep 3: 7.4

ep 4: 6.6

ep 5: 5

ep 6: 6.1

total: 40.3

So in one week over a year, the Trans-D PCs earned not quite one XP per week. On a real time basis, that is a bit slow. On a game time basis, you've gained one XP every two days, which is fast.

[SkyLion]

No offense BN, but IO think you are missing the point. The point of what Cottus, and now I and a few others are saying is that it doenst matter if its fast for the IC...the suggestion for that it to put a limit on how often IC certain things can be bought.

The point of what we are saying is that its the RL passage of time that matters. We want the RL payoff to the RL time expenditure to be at least someone equal to if we were showing up for 6-8 hours once a week. Some like myself spend alot more than that here...

[Blue Thunder]

I haven't read all the replies but I'll be blunt: look at the first entry I made for Prometheans Unbound. I wanted to ST a text game, with no stats, just dialogue. I was tempted to bring it to N!Prime just because of that. All I care about is the plot and character development. Character development to me is not increasing your stats. It's progressing your character's place in the setting, his understanding of himself, and developing and changing his personality over time. If that means adding a dot to a Q-power or Ability, then it does. But that's not even mostly what its about, and it never will be, especially for a White Wolf setting. If thats what one is looking for I suggest D&D, where the entire point of the game is level advancement. Or I suggest video games, where it's almost entirely about level advancement.

The stats in WW games serve only to quantify the story and characters. That's why the system is kept very basic, and combat is kept as simple as possible. If you're looking for a game where you upgrade stats on a regular basis, then you may want to throw out EVERY White Wolf book you own, because with White Wolf, the XP is built up slowly and things cost a lot. That's because the real advancement happens with the character's personalities and how they shape (and are shaped by) the setting they're in. White Wolf games assume you want to tell/play in a good story, not max stats.

I don't approach tabletop RPGs as mere games. If I did, I'd stop playing tabletop games altogether and play my PS2 all day. I approach them as stories, movies, television shows, books, whatever...where the importance is on what happens, and playing good characters. I honestly wouldn't give a shit if every character I ever roleplayed got 0 XP and never gained levels or learned new powers, as long as the Gamemaster's story kicked ass. I simply don't care about advancing my character's stats.

That said, I know most people do care about improving their character sheets, and I don't blame them or judge them for it in the slightest. But I feel that the free XP and temp Chrysalis points for in-game downtime (the time in between in-game events where we don't roleplay the action and I fast-forward the time setting), the automatic XP after each Chapter, the XP at intervals, and the XP and temp Chrysalis awarded for fiction...are actually more than enough. Not to mention the bonus 60 XP at character generation, as well as the starting 40 NP character build. I would have had everyone at 30 NP and no bonus XP if this were a standard tabletop game; the extra points were compensation because XP would be slow to accumulate on-line.

On-line roleplaying games are rarely ever heavy on XP. I know you want more XP because the real-life gametime is longer, but there's no way I'm handing out so much XP that half the Prometheans faction is Quantum 6 before the Night of Long Knives (which is said to take up to two years, max) is even finished.

[SkyLion]

Fair enough BT, and of course you are more than entitled to your opinion, especially as ST. However I do disagree that WW isnt about advancing in abilities...*every* game they have ever put out has hoards of abilities, and especially higher level ones that arent available normally in the beginning.

In many cases, increasing your standing in the game world, in the way that you want to, not the gamemaster, requires an elevation in power level. For example, a good friend of mine has a vampire character who started out rather humbly, but he has plans to end up becomming a vital and important player to Mages, Faeries, the Garou and even The Assamites. To be able to be a major player in even one of these factions requires signifigant power to back it up, especially starting out as a complete unknown...after all the elders in these groups are very often old beyond measure...power and capability is all they will respect, or in other words...if you cant back it up with effectivness get the hell out of our throne room, My buddy has come up with an ingenious way of doing this, both in powers and the story development around them...to me the two are and should be intertwined.

Taking it back to Prometheans, Cottus wants to go for a Q 7 power, so he is going to end up having to save up ginormous amounts of xp to get just one thing....given the default slower rate of the PbP...he may never get there....that sucks for him and leaves him unsatisfied as a player. For Envy its even worse, cuz Im going for Q 8...

Another big problem is that the PC stays static for sooo long and even then you only get to buy one or two things...and as Cottis has pointed out, spending hoards of xp just to raise Quantum doesnt really get you anywhere....you need even more to get those powers that you needed higher Q for in the first place.

[BlueNinja]

No offense BN, but IO think you are missing the point. The point of what Cottus, and now I and a few others are saying is that it doenst matter if its fast for the IC...the suggestion for that it to put a limit on how often IC certain things can be bought.

The point of what we are saying is that its the RL passage of time that matters. We want the RL payoff to the RL time expenditure to be at least someone equal to if we were showing up for 6-8 hours once a week. Some like myself spend alot more than that here...

No, actually, I understand the point, but I think that passing out more XP would, in the long run, damage the realism of the Trans-D game world and storyline. As an example, it took Michal a decade of gametime to go from Q2 up to Q6. If I start handing out XP at an even faster rate, I should (as a thorough ST) have a damn good reason to explain why the PCs have new powers bursting forth at an unprecedented rate. I set the XP rate the way I did because I thought it would provide fairly large XP bonuses per episode (which I think it has, fairly well) that would not require a huge amount of time to stockpile XP to build up stats. One PC has already raised their Quantum score, so it's not an impossible task - and it's not the only thiing he's raised, either.

On a slight tangent, raising your Quantum score is supposed to be expensive and take a long time, because you are in effect raising the range, area, and maintenance duration of every power. You're also raising your quantum pool.

[SkyLion]

Is Paul Q6 now??? ::blink

btw...

[Centimane]

On-line roleplaying games are rarely ever heavy on XP. I know you want more XP because the real-life gametime is longer, but there's no way I'm handing out so much XP that half the Prometheans faction is Quantum 6 before the Night of Long Knives (which is said to take up to two years, max) is even finished.

Well, how much xp are you handing out on average? You said you hadn't read all the posts, so I don't know whether you read what I thought would be a fair amount of xp to be getting per month *on average*. I said that, IMO, 6-8xp per month, or 72-96 per year would suit me just fine. We've only been playing the xp-earning part of the NoLK for about a month, so it's hard to tell what you're planning on giving out over the long run. Also, the NoLK game is going to have ready access to Chrysalis which enhances the value of the xp we earn. So, while I certainly don't know for sure, it may be that you're already planning on handing out a pretty decent load of xp over the long haul. As for not handing out so much xp that half the Prometheans are at Q 6 before the NoLK is over, the way to avoid that is to say "no, you may *not* buy Q 6 right now, because if you did it would hurt the story". I know I could live with that. Although I also know that if it's at all possible then I plan on getting James to Q 6 somewhere along the way, meaning "as soon as possible".

And while I understand and applaud your preference for focusing so heavily on the story that you don't care about the xp or your character's stats, that's not at all how I feel. I compare RPGs to real life to a cetain extent, and in RL I never manage to advance through nothin' unless I'm also getting better at something. My whole life has been about learning, experiencing, and achieving new things. I'm not satisfied with myself unless I'm getting *better*. I don't care how well or poorly I compare to those around me, I care how I compare to what I was yesterday.

Most of you have seen at least a few of my artworks (and those of you who haven't can just look to the upper left at my avatar for an example). But most of you probably aren't aware that I've never taken any art courses because my parents didn't have the money, and I switched schools so rapidly growing up I never had a chance to take any of the courses they offered. I learned to draw using clicker pencils and those pink erasers, and I never got to try out any of the fancy stuff (I never even got to work in color until I got photoshop). I know very little about computers and the first time I'd ever even seen, let alone used, Photoshop was when I bought it. The avatar that I use is something like the tenth picture I painted using Photoshop. I'm telling you guys all of this to illustrate what I mean when I talk about getting better at things. I never gave a damn how my art compared to anybody else's, and I never let my lack of formal training stop me from learning on my own. I bought Photoshop and learned how to use it without any help, and without knowing if it would even work out for me or just be a huge waste of money. Even if it had turned out to be a huge waste of money, and my dreams of being a half-way decent artist turned out to be delusions, I wouldn't have let that stop me. I would have turned away from my art with no regrets, knowing that I had tried my hardest and that was nothing to be ashamed of, and I would have moved to something else and began to train in that. For me life should be experienced, and for me, part of that means learning things and doing them as best you can. I like taking risks, I'm not afraid of getting hit or falling down, and I like reaching as high as I can in a given area of skill. This is how I roleplay. You may approach life differently, you may not. You may approach roleplaying differently, you may not. But this is how I go about it, and this is why consistent, progressive changes to my character's abilities and resources is important to me.

But don't get hung up on the xp part. That's not the part I care about. It's the part where my character is actually getting better at things. You may have noticed that the first (and only thing) I've purchased in the NoLK game was a dot of Influence. I had enough xp to buy an enhancement (and there are several I want to get), but I didn't because a dot of Influence was by far the most appropriate choice. I don't want James (or Zhenglai) to be uber-powerful gods this time next year, but I do want to be able to develop my characters in a concrete way. I don't think that's wrong, bad, muchkinish, sacriligeous, or lugubrious (that last one doesn't apply, but I just wanted to use the word "lugubrious" in a post...). I also don't think it's asking you or anyone else to give me "too much". I think it's perfectly reasonable and fair.

On a slight tangent, raising your Quantum score is supposed to be expensive and take a long time, because you are in effect raising the range, area, and maintenance duration of every power. You're also raising your quantum pool.

Actually, according to the core book, raising your Quantum score does *not* raise your q-pool. Minor point. Just thought I'd mention it.

[Centimane]

No, actually, I understand the point, but I think that passing out more XP would, in the long run, damage the realism of the Trans-D game world and storyline. As an example, it took Michal a decade of gametime to go from Q2 up to Q6. If I start handing out XP at an even faster rate, I should (as a thorough ST) have a damn good reason to explain why the PCs have new powers bursting forth at an unprecedented rate. I set the XP rate the way I did because I thought it would provide fairly large XP bonuses per episode (which I think it has, fairly well) that would not require a huge amount of time to stockpile XP to build up stats. One PC has already raised their Quantum score, so it's not an impossible task - and it's not the only thiing he's raised, either.

The first thing that strikes me here is that while it *may* damage the realism of Trans-D in the long run, the "long-run" is going to be something like 5-6 years of real time. That's a very long run. Also, I disagree with it damaging the realism. For what it's worth.

The second thing is that PbP play just does *not* lend itself to thinking in terms of IC time when determining what's realistic. It can take a week to get through one conversation, and then we jump ahead and cover 4 hours in a few short posts. There's nothing that can be compared to this in a TT game in anything but the most vague of terms. In a PbP game, the longer a chapter, arc, or episode takes, the more the players got into it and enjoyed it, and the more in-depth they got with roleplaying their characters. Short chapters happen because everyone just sort of plows their way through the story. Similar things happen in a TT game, but regardless of how long the players take to get through a particular arc of a story, xp is still handed out at the end of the session so it's no biggie. In a PbP game, it's completely different. The more involved the players get in the story the longer the story takes, the longer the story takes the longer they have to wait for xp, but from everything I've seen the xp you get at the end of such arcs is still based entirely on IC time. So, in the long run, players are penalized for fully exploring a story and interacting with each other and the NPCs. This doesn't happen in a TT game because xp is given out at the end of the session every week. If a chapter takes four weeks to run through, the players get xp four times. This doesn't happen in PbP play (or at least not from what I've seen). So like I say, focusing entirely on IC time isn't terribly realistic for PbP play. I certainly think it should play a roll in the development of the characters, but I don't think it should be the qualifier for how much xp is given out since IC time in a PbP game is like a Unicorn in mythology. It comes and goes at will and only the purest of IC heart can grasp its nature.

As for what you said about raising quantum, I couldn't agree more. But do you honestly think that I could raise Zhenglai's quantum from 4 to 5 in one year? And would I also be able to maybe add a dot or two to some of his megas or at least a few abilities here and there? To me, "taking a lot of effort and time to raise quantum" doesn't mean 1-2 years and nothing else in the meantime. I don't mind having to work long and hard for the big stuff, and in Zhenglai's case I'm not even all *that* interested in seeing his quantum go up much higher than 5 regardless of how long Trans-D runs, but his L3 powers still cost x 7 per level which is all of 1 number lower than the x 8 of Quantum, so I'm still screwed....

[SkyLion]

I like the idea that Quantum goes up the more you use it, like exercising a muscle. Using it in this case means using your powers. If there is a way for Q to go up on its own without spending xp, over time of course and in proportion to power usage then XP will be available to put where it really makes an IC difference...powers...

[Alex Green]

I like the idea that Quantum goes up the more you use it, like exercising a muscle. Using it in this case means using your powers. If there is a way for Q to go up on its own without spending xp, over time of course and in proportion to power usage then XP will be available to put where it really makes an IC difference...powers...

Quantum costs a huge amount because it's supposed to be hard to raise. Also many character concepts get hosed by increasing quantum.

Example: Q1, (baseline looking supernormal)

At Q2 and up he isn't going to be able to pass for baseline, and I don't see why Batman should suddenly gain the potential for unlimited power.

Example: Q4, Taint 8, Dorm 5 (Moster with alternative form)

One more point of Quantum means a point of taint, which means he gains a new, high level aberration and (worse) dorming doesn't get rid of all his aberrations any more.

Example: Q5 nova.

Is now Q6 and a godling on steriods.

IMHO raising quantum without exp should be a VERY groundshaking plot device/event. We know that the levels of quantum are going to go up between Abby and Trinity's eras, so it *will* happen. But it is NOT going to be a good thing.

[metaphysician]

IMO, the Taint 8 nova has bigger issues to worry about than looking a tad bit inhuman in his normal form.

As for the general debate, I think the problem is that people are talking past each other. There is IC and OOC reasons for XP award rates, and not all of us are talking about the same issues.

I will say, however: the idea that every players should be perfectly happy with even no XP at all? Laughable. Ultimately your ability to influence and effect the setting is limited by all the various statistics you buy with XP, and everyone else in the setting has as much or vastly more than you start out with. If you don't ever get XP, than you are relegated to a handball ultimately before the people with vastly greater power and influence. So, "satisfying oneself with role-playing a character, rather than gathering XP" is fundamentally identical to "satisfying oneself with role-playing a character who is helpless and unable to do anything beyond survive."

Aberrant is not survival horror.

[Alex Green]

Is Paul Q6 now??? ::blink

Huh? Where did that come from.

Paul so far has increased Healing, Psi-Link, purchased a mega-stat, Dorm, and I don't remember what else... but that's a lot right there.

[Blue Thunder]

So, "satisfying oneself with role-playing a character, rather than gathering XP" is fundamentally identical to "satisfying oneself with role-playing a character who is helpless and unable to do anything beyond survive."

Uh..."satisfying oneself with role-playing a character, rather than gathering XP" is pretty much White Wolf's motto. I'm not shitting you, it is. Really. Read any WW book (even Aberrant) and they pretty much preach this point every oppoirtunity they can.

You've misinterpreted me. I never said people should be happy with no XP. I said that I, personally, wouldn't care if I never got XP ever again. I'm gamemastering 90% of the time, and I'm actually very liberal when it comes to things like XP.

Taking it back to Prometheans, Cottus wants to go for a Q 7 power, so he is going to end up having to save up ginormous amounts of xp to get just one thing....given the default slower rate of the PbP...he may never get there....that sucks for him and leaves him unsatisfied as a player. For Envy its even worse, cuz Im going for Q 8...

Not to be a dick, but if you're shooting for Q8, and you're getting unsatisfied because you're not reaching it fast enough, it's entirely your fault, and not the Storyteller's in the slightest. Going from Q5 to Q6 is a huge fucking leap, for anyone, and it costs a boatload of XP and takes a long time to raise. There are only half a dozen characters with a Quantum above 5 by the time Aberrant starts, and most of them are at Q6. The amount of experience it takes for someone to reach Quantum 6 from Quantum 5 is incredible...it would take very long time to get there even with tabletop games. Mal is at Q8, but he's had a century to get there. And each point of Quantum after Q6 is even harder to get than the one before it.

Quantum takes a long time to gain. That's the point. Quantum 6 changes everything about a character's capabilities. I'm not going to give out extra XP because someone wants to get a higher Quantum faster. Of course you want a higher Quantum, and faster. Everyone does. But it's supposed to be a slow process, and I'm not going to change it because there's no reason to. You've already got the Chrysalis to cut XP costs, and that's more than enough.

If Q8 is your main goal and you won't do anything else with your character's sheet until you reach it, then you're going to spend a verrrrrry long time feeling disappointed, and you're going to be doing it to yourself.

I think I should also point out that when we started the NoLK campaign, I stressed several times that a high Quantum and building smashing powers and Ultimate Power were not going to help you come out on top. If that's your goal for your character, then good, and I support it, but that's not the absolute key to victory, and it never will be.

[SkyLion]

What is the point of publishing Q 8 powers if I can't have them??? And you are correct, without Chrysalis this would be entirely unfeasable. Im thinking it is going to take Envy 2 or even 3 Chrysalis to get there...

[Centimane]

I'd like to go ahead and point out that all this talk about raising quantum is: ::offtopic

And no, I'm not blaming anyone in particular, it just kind of came up without anyone noticing it.

I started this topic to discuss, and I'm only really interested in, the (IMO) extremely slow rate of xp-handing-out that seems to happen in PbP games. It's certainly true that I want to raise the Q level of both of my aberrant characters on these boards, but it's just as true that I have *no* interest in doing so anytime in the near future. Seriously, BT, you could send me a PM right now saying that you've been so impressed with my arguments here and my roleplaying in the Prometheans that you've decided to hand out 2 *free* levels of quantum. That I could just go ahead and add 2 dots to James' Q-score right now. I would (and I'm being serious here) politely, but firmly respond by telling you that I didn't think that was in any way appropriate for James at this point. I'd say thanks, but I'd also say "no".

The reason for this is that I'm not interested in making James the most powerful badass out there. I'm just not. I'm interested in developing his concept and his personality. But I can't say that James has grown by leaps and bounds in his personality, and now has a large amount of personal charisma (certainly not at a superhuman level, but impressive nonetheless) without the dots to back that up. That's what I want the xp for, *not* for turning him into Divis Mal's chief competition. I've got a decent sized list of things I want to buy for him that will have virtually *no* impact on how much ass he can kick in a fight (or whatever), but that I do think will really help expand and enrich his personality and his character concept. That's what I'm interested in, and that's why I started this thread.

Not because I want Q 6 (or even Q 5, which James doesn't have yet) anytime in the next 6 months. That's probably at least as laughable (and very likely even more so) to me than it is to any of you.

[Alex Green]

I think I should also point out that when we started the NoLK campaign, I stressed several times that a high Quantum and building smashing powers and Ultimate Power were not going to help you come out on top. If that's your goal for your character, then good, and I support it, but that's not the absolute key to victory, and it never will be.

Most of my really dangerous characters have been Q3.

Yes, granted, Q6 with Mastery does *eventually* become more powerful, but that takes a while and you have to survive *right* *now*. IMHO, Point for point a Q4 or Q5 character is weaker than Q3.

[SkyLion]

Huh? Where did that come from.

Paul so far has increased Healing, Psi-Link (twice), purchased a mega-stat, Dorm, and I don't remember what else... but that's a lot right there.

,,

It came from BN saying a PC, descriptor He, had already raised their Quantum. Since I know its not me, and Mask and Zhenglai havent been playing long enough Id have thought it might be you. Its probably Ash though...maybe Brandt.

[BlueNinja]

Actually, according to the core book, raising your Quantum score does *not* raise your q-pool. Minor point. Just thought I'd mention it.

Which is bullshit, and thusly in my game at least, boosting your base Quantum also gives you +2 QP.

[Centimane]

Which is bullshit, and thusly in my game at least, boosting your base Quantum also gives you +2 QP.

::laugh

You tell 'em BN!

[BlueNinja]

The first thing that strikes me here is that while it *may* damage the realism of Trans-D in the long run, the "long-run" is going to be something like 5-6 years of real time. That's a very long run. Also, I disagree with it damaging the realism. For what it's worth.

5-6 years of real time should (I hope) put the game at the end of Season 2. If all of the PCs have boosted their base Quantum in under two years (and for most of the group, that's going to mean Q5 or higher) I should have some IC justfication for this. By that point I could probably think of one, but I'd rather not have to. ::tongue

As for what you said about raising quantum, I couldn't agree more. But do you honestly think that I could raise Zhenglai's quantum from 4 to 5 in one year? And would I also be able to maybe add a dot or two to some of his megas or at least a few abilities here and there?

The average XP handout for the first year of Trans-D was 40XP per PC. That's enough to go from Q5 to Q6 without buying anything else. It's more than enough to raise a lower quantum score and still have XP left over.

::laugh

You tell 'em BN!

Seriously, upping your base Quantum is already the most expensive thing in the game. I don't see a reason to then charge the player another 6XP to bring up their QP to where it would have been if they'd started with their quantum that high.

It came from BN saying a PC, descriptor He, had already raised their Quantum.

I have no problems with you guys discussing what you've purchased for your PCs. But I am not going to put that info out there unless I know from the player that it's ok.

[Alex Green]

5-6 years of real time should (I hope) put the game at the end of Season 2. If all of the PCs have boosted their base Quantum in under two years (and for most of the group, that's going to mean Q5 or higher) I should have some IC justfication for this. By that point I could probably think of one, but I'd rather not have to. ::tongue

Too late, you've already given solid reason.

A) A number of us visited a world where we got +1 Q.

All of us are visiting worlds where the background level of quantum changes, at least somewhat. It'd be odd if our bodies didn't become adjusted to that... and all that swimming may increase our muscles.

I have no problems with you guys discussing what you've purchased for your PCs. But I am not going to put that info out there unless I know from the player that it's ok.

Thank you. What I listed is just what's come up.