Aberrant RPG - Armor Piercing

[metaphysician]

Well, *technically* you could argue that Sensory Shield protects against overload, while some of these attacks don't overload the sense, they whack it with qualitatively bad imput. . . but I agree. Sensory Shield should work against anything that attacks the senses.

All you have to do is say that the entire sensory system, from receptors to processing, is hardened against "bad input."

[Blue Thunder]

I still disagree.

You can't just look at the power name of a power. Disorient included. Claws doesn't mean you actually have claws, although it can. It can ge blowing quantum energy or telekinetic force. But in gameplay it comes out the same. Disorient is the same; the power gives the target a penalty on their dice pools. This can be due to some sort of nausia or telepathic assault, but it could be anything else.

Imagine a power where a nova can sap the energy out of people. He doesn't absorb it, but he does force his targets to become exhausted and tired, slowing down their bodies and reflexes. That would be handled with Disorient. Imagine a power where a telepath nova makes targets "entranced" and stuck in a dreamy haze where they find it hard to concentrate on their surroundings. He's not attacking senses so much as directly altering the target's mind, which is very much telepathic.

Sensory Shield shouldn't be able to resist Disorient, even if the Disorient is defined as something like nausia or delerium. We could argue that any bodily function is tied to our five senses in any way, because they are. And there are all kinds of "other senses" present within our body that we could argue should be handled with Sensory Shield. But Sensory Shield is specifically for resisting assaults on your five senses. For something more expansive, I'd suggest some kind of Body Modification or Mega-Sta enhancement.

Personally, I don't think Sensory Shield makes sense as it is. For a level 1 power, I think it should be limited to one sense that the player chooses. Just because your character has enhanced eyes that are resistant to flares and flashes doesn't mean he can withstand sonic attacks and loud noises.

[Alex Green]

I still disagree.

You can't just look at the power name of a power. Disorient included. Claws doesn't mean you actually have claws, although it can. It can get blowing quantum energy or telekinetic force. But in game play it comes out the same. Disorient is the same; the power gives the target a penalty on their dice pools. This can be due to some sort of nausia or telepathic assault, but it could be anything else.

Imagine a power where a nova can sap the energy out of people. He doesn't absorb it, but he does force his targets to become exhausted and tired, slowing down their bodies and reflexes. That would be handled with Disorient. Imagine a power where a telepath nova makes targets "entranced" and stuck in a dreamy haze where they find it hard to concentrate on their surroundings. He's not attacking senses so much as directly altering the target's mind, which is very much telepathic.

In addition to the name being extremely suggestive, Disorient defaults to a sensory attack. You shouldn’t be able to side step defenses by giving it a fancy special effect, any more than you should be able to let other powers side step the standard defenses by giving them special effects.

Which then opens the issue of, what is the standard nova point defense for this power? Granted, it’s a reach to apply Sensory Shield, but it’s only a small reach.

Sensory Shield shouldn't be able to resist Disorient, even if the Disorient is defined as something like nausia or delerium. We could argue that any bodily function is tied to our five senses in any way, because they are. And there are all kinds of "other senses" present within our body that we could argue should be handled with Sensory Shield. But Sensory Shield is specifically for resisting assaults on your five senses. For something more expansive, I'd suggest some kind of Body Modification or Mega-Sta enhancement.

Nothing in Sensory Shield limits it to the 5 senses, and we actually have an example in the power description of it being useful against tear gas, which is a low level nerve gas and a general irritant.

Personally, I don't think Sensory Shield makes sense as it is. For a level 1 power, I think it should be limited to one sense that the player chooses. Just because your character has enhanced eyes that are resistant to flares and flashes doesn't mean he can withstand sonic attacks and loud noises.

Considering the example of Psychic Shield (which Sensory Shield largely mimics), it shouldn’t take 5 dots in Sensory Shield in order to give you one dot’s worth of protection against everything Strobe can do. We also have the issue what kind of attack is "Tear Gas"?

[Blue Thunder]

In addition to the name being extremely suggestive, Disorient defaults to a sensory attack. You shouldn’t be able to side step defenses by giving it a fancy special effect, any more than you should be able to let other powers side step the standard defenses by giving them special effects.

Disorient doesn't default to a sensory attack; the name doesn't suggest a sensory attack to me at all, just something that makes you...disoriented. I always assume the power is telepathic in nature when I read it.

And you aren't sidestepping defenses either. Disorient is resisted with Willpower, something many characters get to a high level. And there are plenty of things one can do to augment or enhance Willpower. Strobe on the other hand isn't resisted by anything...except Sensory Shield. I just reread Strobe, and the target doesn't get any kind of defensive roll; Sensory Shield is the only defense.

And you can determine the defenses of something via their "special effects" If someone hits you with a Quantum Bolt (fire) and you have Invulnerability (fire) then you get to resist it. If someone uses Quantum Bolt (electric) you're not going to resist it with Invulnerability (fire). So if you choose to have Disorient as a mental attack, then Psychic Shield should be able block it. If you define it as an attack on a target's sensory abilities (inducing vertigo through dizzying optical patterns on the retinas, for example), then Sensory Shield should be able to block it.

It says in the very beginning of the power's description:

A nova with Disorient can cause another character to become confused, weakened, disoriented, and unable to take action effectively. The effect can be physical (inducing nausea) or mental (creating hallucinations), depending on how the power is defined, but the end result is the same.

But don't blame me. I didn't write the power. I'm just pointing out that you could easily take it as a mental power, and the book suggests it. It wouldn't be the first time an Aberrant power has confused the hell out of anyone, and not the first time a power has been left open to interpretation.

[Finbar]

Of course, if it were a defined as a physical attack, then couldn't Health (the Mega-Sta enhancement useful against poisons, et al) work?

FR

[BlueNinja]

How the hell would you put Armor Piercing on Disorient, regardless of how it's defined? It doesn't do damage, so there's no soak to ignore.

[SkyLion]

How the hell would you put Armor Piercing on Disorient, regardless of how it's defined? It doesn't do damage, so there's no soak to ignore.

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It states clearly in the beginning of the powers section that all is just guidlines. There can easily be a version of AP that affects allows attack powers based on things other than soak to better penetrate said defenses....

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The APG encourages this creativity as well...

[Centimane]

It states clearly in the beginning of the powers section that all is just guidlines. There can easily be a version of AP that affects allows attack powers based on things other than soak to better penetrate said defenses....

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The APG encourages this creativity as well...

I'm afraid I have to agree. I'd add something of my own to that argument, but I'd just be parroting SkyLion, so I'll just agree. ::happy

[SkyLion]

And I will add that its possible to come up with an extra or new power and that the main thing is that it fits the spirit of the rules and setting.Theres a statement in the APG that states under the permanent power section that the permanent power aberration wouldn't count for absorbtion since absorbtion requires 1 quantum/per health level to absorb energy and the aberration makes it not cost quantum.

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So for Trans-D I wanted my PC to have permanently altered perceptions (In this case EM Vision). At first BN said enhancments couldn't have extras but since it was in the spirit of the rules he let me have one permanent enhancemt per Mega Attribute only I had to buy each dot as a Level 3 power (due to the extra) since Mega Atts cost the same as L2 powers....all in the spirit of the rules both story and mechanics so its fair.

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I Heartily encourage other players to come up with these kind of creative twists so long as they fit the concept. In many of our fun arguments/debates here and especially when Alex/and/or Nullifier and/or myself we seem to argue much about the Semantics, when in fact the beginning of the power section and APG encourage us to alter powers to fit character concept for whom things as is dont quite get you what you want.

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I was recently frustrated by this in an argument about how since Q-Vamp (life force) steals real health levels then it should heal real health levels

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(Alex argued it was unfair since it would be better than healing...IMHO healing is WAY underpowered...it shoud either not be limited to once a scene or let you heal 2 or even 3 lethal per dot in the power...its a level 3 power dammit...the only reason I can think of is that the developers wanted combat to be deadly but thats a stupid argument since healers are *very* rare (Q 4 min/L3). Okay. End RANT....I said I was frustrated dammit!!!)

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This is not an open call for rampant munchkinism. This is a call for creativity. Imagination. To let yourself come up with powers and ideas that dont fit the power list on page 181!!!

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As always the ST has final say. In fact, I had the opposite happen to me twice....Agg Claws got nerfed and another of my PCs on another site has a very interesting power combo:

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This character controls quantum and gravity and has a Density Control (extra Extreme Density) that is linked to an area effect quantum leech. All of those points (quantum energy) gets shunted into a local, centered on him gravity well. The ST nerfed the extra since, as is, this would let me buy a single dot in a level 3 power and gain tremendous soak...at a rate of 1 soak per density increase level/quantum point spent. Also since I worked out the math and it would only take 96 quantum points, or draining around 3-6 Novas within the area of effect...96 doublings of density to reach the mass of the smallest black hole that we have measured...something he pointed out would be way worse than Q-Inferno...even a tiny black hole would eat several solar systems worth of stars at least and given enough time a galaxy...

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So we hashed it out and came to a nerfed but more plausible version of extreme density, where it is possible to get to that level, but at mastery levels that are more appropriate for such things. Sometimes all it takes is a conversation with the ST and if both work together can come up with something unique and cool and everyone feels satisfied.

[Alex Green]

It states clearly in the beginning of the powers section that all is just guidlines. There can easily be a version of AP that affects allows attack powers based on things other than soak to better penetrate said defenses....,,

The APG encourages this creativity as well...

True... but we still come back to the issue of what you'd want this to do.

Disorient + AP has all the same issues that Mental Blast + AP does. Order of operation, double dipping, mostly (totally here) unsoaked... so where to go with this isn't obvious, or at least isn't obvious to me.

I was recently frustrated by this in an argument about how since Q-Vamp (life force) steals real health levels then it should heal real health levels ,,

(Alex argued it was unfair since it would be better than healing...IMHO healing is WAY underpowered...it shoud either not be limited to once a scene or let you heal 2 or even 3 lethal per dot in the power...its a level 3 power dammit...the only reason I can think of is that the developers wanted combat to be deadly but thats a stupid argument since healers are *very* rare (Q 4 min/L3). Okay. End RANT....I said I was frustrated dammit!!!)

RE: Healing being under powered.

Depends on what you want to use it for. Economically IMHO it's the 3rd most valuable power. Socially it lets you become a cult leader. Without it's per scene restriction it becomes "Regeneration for everyone" which is a problem, same comment about it's juice limitation.

RE: New Powers, Q-Vamp + Health, & Power vs. Theme.

When building new powers (or characters) it's important not to confuse power and theme. When you want to use a power to accomplish many broad things, then you have a theme, and need to buy many powers or one of the suite powers. Q-Vamp (Health) gives you a theme that includes Healing... but for balance you still need to buy Healing (and as that character is at least Q4 he could).

Granted, some of the power vs. theme separations are fairly arbitrary (perhaps created for balance). In RL (whatever that means here), Telepathy and Psychic Shield really should cover emotions as well… but in Abby they don’t. In RL, Q-Vampire(Health) should include some kind of healing… or at least the various fictions where vampires exist and use it, it does. But Abby defines it as two separate things. Someone quick enough and skilled enough to catch bullets (M-Dex 4+) really should be able to think faster than a baseline… but Abby defines those as being two separate abilities or powers or Mega-Stats.

[SkyLion]

Disorient + AP has all the same issues that Mental Blast + AP does. Order of operation, double dipping, mostly (totally here) unsoaked... so where to go with this isn't obvious, or at least isn't obvious to me.

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I think it should be possible to hash stuff out with the ST. For Mental Blast AP...Its Int+rating, "soaked" (resisted...and btw I had forgotten that in Trin games soak is applied not rolled like in WoD, so its part of why I was confused...just applying it makes it way more powerful). Having it ignore 2 dots of willpower per net success etc....Alex I *totally* get where you are coming from with the double dipping et al.

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I would suggest AP ignores only 1 dot of soak per net success that comes from psychic shield etc. (since psychic shield and similar defenses are on a smaller scale than other soaking powers.)

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I think Willpower should be immune to being tampered with and reduced. in other words they can penetrate your psi-shield but underneath is your will which is almost like having your innermost soul fighting for its life in these situations.

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I read *somewhere* in one of my many WoD books how the developers viewed willpower as the great equalizer. Even sleepers, baselines etc can rise to great heights with it and it can allow them to overcome tremendous odds and shrug off mental powers etc. I know that Abbie says baselines cant spend WP for extra successes in this way but I would suggest we allow them in the same way WoD suggests allowing lethal soak for more rugged soldier type normals. So perhaps only the really hardened desperate ones...

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For example A woman who shrugs off domination to save her child from being eaten by a monster or has the presence of mind for one last defiant act of stabbing a werewolf with a silver dinner fork...

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I think a house ruling on this would be awesome since it would allow that rare baseline to step up to the plate and show that humanity aint done yet!

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Also there is a Vampiric Discipline called Dark Thaumaturgy, and one of its paths is called "The Taking of the Spirit" and its the only power I have ever seen that lets someone drain Temp and Perm Willpower points..

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However before anyone gets any ideas there is a sidebar entitled "You are going to Hell." Basically it says Dark Thaumaturgy is a *very* bad thing, that is usually gifted by actual demons and old ones and that should your PC learn such vileness, well...karmas a bitch when the devil comes calling for his due...