Aberrant RPG - Armor Piercing

[BlueNinja]

Was thinking about this earlier, partly because a Trans-D NPC has it on his Immolate.

1) Mental Blast! Obviously Armor Piercing would take down dots of Psychic Shield, but does it also cancel out the Willpower successes (since they reduce damage)?

2) Quantum Vampire! If you have Armor Piercing on Q-Vamp (health), does this lower the number of successes rolled with Resistance or Willpower?

3) Immolate! Armor Piercing reduces soak based on the successes rolled on an attack. Does that mean your normal strike counts for it? And if they're hitting you, does that mean your opponent's attack successes reduce his own soak?

(FYI, I run Kevin's Immolate that he rolls dice equal to his power rating to reduce the soak of his opponent for his Immolate to inflict damage; my tabletop ST thought this was balanced.)

[metaphysician]

How about this:

Quantum Bolt ( AP ) 5 + Boost ( Dex ) sufficient to reach Mega 5.

That was the combo that convinced by GM to eliminate AP from the game. ::tongue

[Alex Green]

(My book isn't here, so I'm working off memory here but...)

1) AP reduces SOAK, not defenses. Therefore Q-Vamp+AP isn't going to do anything because it's already an effect that's totally unsoakable. This is also a problem with Mental-Blast+AP because the only thing that gives soak is Psy-Shield.

2) The next issue is that as resisted attacks, Q-Vamp and Mental-Blast don't have a targeting roll. Therefore that puts a "zero" in for the number of "to-hit" succ, and 2 * zero is still zero.

RE: Immolate + AP

This works, but you need to attack with Immolate. If you are making a Brawl attack, then your "to hit" succ add to Brawl, not to Immolate, so the number of succ is zero. They even give rules for attacking directly with Immolate in the power description as I recall.

Where this can really make a difference is with Immolate + Agg. Let's say you have Mega-Dex 5, Imm+Agg 2, and Strength 2. You attack, and normally get 5 extra succ on your to hit roll. Rather than have damage that does [2]AGG + (4 Bashing + 5 acc succ), if you attack with Immolate you do [2]Agg + 5 acc succ.

And since your opponent's attack succ already don't add to Immolate's acc dice, they still don't for AP.

RE: Best AP attack

IMHO, that would be Claws+AP. It's cheapest from several stand points.

[metaphysician]

1) is nitpicky, IMHO, though obviously ST discretion.

2) however, is a much bigger issue, and IMHO, big reason why AP shouldn't apply to resisted powers. There's no way to distinguish attack and damage successes, basically.

[Alex Green]

1) is nitpicky, IMHO, though obviously ST discretion.

2) however, is a much bigger issue, and IMHO, big reason why AP shouldn't apply to resisted powers. There's no way to distinguish attack and damage successes, basically.

Because I can have an unlimited amount of soak, but I can only have 10 willpower.

And if we are going to allow damage to generate AP, then that's roughtly equal to using Mega-Strength Autosucc.

[metaphysician]

OTOH, there are powers that add to your defensive Willpower rolls: Psychic Shield for for mental attacks, at the very least, the unofficial but advisable Quantum Shield for direct quantum attacks, etc.

So a better direct comparison is not Willpower and Soak, its Willpower and Stamina, IMO.

[Alex Green]

There are also big issues with the order of operations.

1) Normal AP attack (say Q-Bolt + AP)

Nova rolls attack at the same time defender rolls to dodge (the defense against AP). Left over succ are doubled and then applied against soak.

2) Resisted AP attack (say Q-Vamp + AP)

Once again, the attacking nova and the defender roll at the same time to determine the number of succ. So... when is the AP aspect supposed to apply and what does it apply to?

If the AP is applied after resistance, then there is nothing to apply it to.

If the AP is applied *before* the resistance, then the effect double dips. Not only would AP help the power do damage, but it would also help it hit in the first place. Is making an attack supposed to prevent defense?

Example: The attacker gets 5 succ on his attack... but the defender would have gotten 5 succ on his defense (10 willpower and rolled one above average). That should mean that the attack failed and no AP effect occured, but if AP is allowed to work against Willpower first then he gets nothing. But how could the attack AP against Willpower when they are supposed to be rolling at the same time?

[SkyLion]

1) AP reduces SOAK, not defenses. Therefore Q-Vamp+AP isn't going to do anything because it's already an effect that's totally unsoakable. This is also a problem with Mental-Blast+AP because the only thing that gives soak is Psy-Shield.

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Firstly Mental Invulnerabilty provides soak also and this soak isnt reduced by AP or AGG....

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Second, Alex, you are being to literal here and trying to make a case on smeantics when you need to look at what the extra *does* within the context of the game. When you apply an extra to a power it is actual a new version of THAT power...

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In other words it fits how its supposed to. According to the extra description, so long as an attack inflicts damage the extra may be applied. Ergo, whatever is used for "soaking" (resisting the damage) is going to be reduced by 2 soak per attacking success...in this case what ever is rolled to attack.

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For Mental Blast you roll and count the net success over the willpower success of the target. If they have no psychic shield or mental invulnerabilty, then you just apply the damage as normal. If they have "mental armor" or "soak" from psychic shield or invulnerabilty then this is where this attack is adept at breaching such defense.

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For quantum vampire its fairly useless unless someone comes up with an exotic defense like Invulnerabilty to Vampirism or life force attacks, which would be bought as Invulnerabilty (willpower resisted attacks).

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Agg Q-vamp however is particularly nasty as is Agg Mental Blast....this is what I think the intention was for Anna Devries....You dont get to roll willpower at all and just take your unsoakable nasty damage unless you have 1 of three....Psychic Shield bought with the extra impervious, mental Invulnerabilty, or a third enhancement for Mega Intelligence that I propose we create that is in effect the Hardbody Enhancement for ones mind.

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Since Q-Vamp is a very exotic attack based off Mega Stamina then I propose that Novas with the Hardbody enhancement be able to pay a qunatum poiint reflexively to be able to resist with their willpower. Other than that the only defense would be the purchasing of the exotic invulnerability...

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feedback welcome. ::smile

[Alex Green]

Firstly Mental Invulnerability provides soak also and this soak isn’t reduced by AP or AGG....

INV:Mental doesn't provide soak. It provides 6 auto-willpower succ. The ONLY thing that provides mental soak is Psi-Shield.

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Second, Alex, you are being to literal here...

It's built into me. ::tongue

For Mental Blast you roll and count the net success over the willpower success of the target. If they have no psychic shield or mental invulnerabilty, then you just apply the damage as normal. If they have "mental armor" or "soak" from psychic shield or invulnerabilty then this is where this attack is adept at breaching such defense.

I could live with this, and even agree with it, but it means that the only power this helps against is Psi-Shield.

For quantum vampire its fairly useless unless someone comes up with an exotic defense like Invulnerabilty to Vampirism or life force attacks, which would be bought as Invulnerabilty (willpower resisted attacks).

INV:BC:Willpower Resisted Attack, or even INV:Q-Vampire, wouldn’t provide soak. It would provide Willpower succ.

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Agg Q-vamp however is particularly nasty as is Agg Mental Blast....this is what I think the intention was for Anna Devries....You dont get to roll willpower at all and just take your unsoakable nasty damage unless you have 1 of three....Psychic Shield bought with the extra impervious, mental Invulnerability, or a third enhancement for Mega Intelligence that I propose we create that is in effect the Hardbody Enhancement for ones mind.

Let’s talk about Anna’s MB+Agg. As according to the standard rules it does (succ)+[Q] levels of Agg damage. It also ignores soak, but note that this isn’t the same as ignoring defenses, so willpower still works normally. For that matter, INV:Mental also works normally, not because it provides a defense against Agg but because it’s pumping willpower which already works normally. Hardbody works normally and allows your existing soak to be applied normally, but since soak against this is extremely rare that’s not much help.

Let’s go over some examples: Anna’s being attacked during that New York Incident (the one where “Aggro” made his name). She makes her attack, and rolls 4 succ (her mega-die came up a 9) which adds to her 4 Quantum for a total of 8 (magically all of her attacks are 8 for this set of examples).

Nova “A” has:

Willpower 3

Mega-Stamina 1 (Hardbody)

Lethal Soak 25

He rolls a single succ on his willpower roll, has no relevant soak and so takes 7 levels of Agg damage. He is stunned since he took more damage than his Stamina, but he is also knocked out and it’s unlikely he’ll get medical attention in time to keep from bleeding to death.

Nova “B” has:

Willpower 5

Psychic Shield 2

Lethal Soak 10

He also rolls a single succ on his willpower roll (which sucks on 5 dice), gets 4 more succ from his mind shield, and can’t apply his mental soak because he doesn’t have Hardbody. He takes 3 levels of Agg damage which shakes him up enough so that “Aggro” will kill him next round.

Nova “C” has

Willpower 7

Psychic Shield 1

Mega-Stamina 1 (Hardbody).

He also rolls a single succ on his willpower roll (which really sucks on 7 dice), and gets 2 more succ from his mind shield. So he takes 5 Agg damage, but his soak reduces that 3. One more level of Psy-Shield and the effect would have been reduced to “ping” damage.

Since Q-Vamp is a very exotic attack based off Mega Stamina then I propose that Novas with the Hardbody enhancement be able to pay a quantum point reflexively to be able to resist with their willpower. Other than that the only defense would be the purchasing of the exotic invulnerability...

I assume we are talking about Q-Vamp + Agg. Everyone can already resist with their Willpower, or their Resistance (their choice). However your effect does an average of 12 succ (8 succ from Stamina and another 4 auto from Quantum) so Pax (taken from our other example with Mega-Stamina 4) would take an average of 4.7 levels of Agg damage.

Without an exotic INV or a house rule allowing “Quantum Shield” (mirroring Psi-shield) a target is normally pretty hosed unless he has Mega-Stamina 4+ with Regen.

[SkyLion]

Firstly Mental Invulnerability provides soak also and this soak isn’t reduced by AP or AGG....

INV:Mental doesn't provide soak. It provides 6 auto-willpower succ. The ONLY thing that provides mental soak is Psi-Shield.

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Er yup! I stand corrected...silly me posting w/o my book!!!

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I assume we are talking about Q-Vamp + Agg. Everyone can already resist with their Willpower, or their Resistance (their choice). However your effect does an average of 12 succ (8 succ from Stamina and another 4 auto from Quantum) so Pax (taken from our other example with Mega-Stamina 4) would take an average of 4.7 levels of Agg damage.

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yeah I was talking about what would happen with Q-Vamp+ agg.

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So did you mean a Mega Stamina nova with 4 quantum? Keep in mind that the max amount of damage that may be added from an attack roll is 5 dice so an AGG Q-Vamp would so [Quantum] plus succeses. If the Novas had Q4 you would be doing [4]+ (maximum 5) Agg damage.

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Granted the max net success that would be 9 AGG damage. Since it is AGG though, I dont think Pax (or anyone) would get to resist with either willpower OR Resistance....

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So would Pax just take the damage? If he had hardbody he could make his resistance roll (which would be pretty good given his Mega-Stam)

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Or am I just not understanding what you meant? ::confused

[Alex Green]

Granted the max net success that would be 9 AGG damage. Since it is AGG though, I dont think Pax (or anyone) would get to resist with either willpower OR Resistance....

Aggravated damage ignores SOAK. That is not the same as ignoring defenses. If the effect isn’t soaked to start with, then you don’t get to benefit from it being unsoakable. On the other hand this also means that Hardbody doesn’t help since Hardbody only allows you to apply your soak.

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Keep in mind that the max amount of damage that may be added from an attack roll is 5 dice so an AGG Q-Vamp would so [Quantum] plus succeses. If the Novas had Q4 you would be doing [4]+ (maximum 5) Agg damage.

The max amount of damage is NOT limited to 5 + Q. Your accurancy bonus succ is limited to 5, but that's the only thing that is. And you can't have an acc bonus with this power so it doesn't matter.

You roll Mega-Stamina + Q-Vamp and add [Q]:

That's presumably (5MD + 6d + [4]) => (4.5 + 2.4 + 4) => 11 Successes (looks like I was off before).

Pax has… Willpower 9 (I just made that up).

This gives him 3.6 succ.

He also has Mega-Stamina 4, and presumably Stamina 5 and Resistance 4.

This averages to 7.2 succ (so he’ll use this to oppose the Vamp attack).

11 succ – 7 succ is 4 succ.

So Pax takes 4 levels of Agg damage.

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So would Pax just take the damage? If he had hardbody he could make his resistance roll (which would be pretty good given his Mega-Stam)

He has Hardbody but since the effect isn’t soaked by anything it doesn’t help.

He gets to use his resistance roll since Agg doesn’t by pass defenses, only soak.

And yeah, he has to just smile and take the damage.

[SkyLion]

Your accurancy bonus succ is limited to 5, but that's the only thing that is. And you can't have an acc bonus with this power so it doesn't matter.

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You would still have to make a martial arts or brawl roll to touch the person...If you were actually strinking someone at the same time then the attack successes would apply to that damage yes? (BN had Kevin do this to Esteban...He hit him...didnt do enough damage to get through soak but q-leeched him...twice in one attack...)

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If the effect isn’t soaked to start with, then you don’t get to benefit from it being unsoakable.

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It is still pretty nasty though since it wouldnt be able to be healed very easily...

[Alex Green]

You would still have to make a martial arts or brawl roll to touch the person...If you were actually strinking someone at the same time then the attack successes would apply to that damage yes?

No. You have to touch the guy, but any acc succ don't help since it's a resisted effect. Also you roll Dex for the touch but you roll Stamina or Int for the effect so there's no carry over.,,

It is still pretty nasty though since it wouldnt be able to be healed very easily...

Yep. Good think Pax has a node of 5 and regen.

[SkyLion]

No. You have to touch the guy, but any acc succ don't help since it's a resisted effect. Also you roll Dex for the touch but you roll Stamina or Int for the effect so there's no carry over.,,

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I meant you could combine it with an actual attack by splitting your actions (this is what BN did to me).

[Alex Green]

I meant you could combine it with an actual attack by splitting your actions (this is what BN did to me).

Ah, now that you could do.

[metaphysician]

Am I the only one who thinks Hardbody is a little too potent as written? If you have any significant lethal soak, you can pretty much ping any agg attack, for one quantum per.

My idea for a change: Hardbody allows you to apply your lethal *Stamina* soak to aggravated attacks, instead. Perhaps as a tradeoff for the weakening, make it a full scene power.

[SkyLion]

Am I the only one who thinks Hardbody is a little too potent as written? If you have any significant lethal soak, you can pretty much ping any agg attack, for one quantum per.

My idea for a change: Hardbody allows you to apply your lethal *Stamina* soak to aggravated attacks, instead. Perhaps as a tradeoff for the weakening, make it a full scene power.

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i brought this up awhile ago. Its like either agg kills you dead OR does nothing (in cases with high lethal soak since agg attacks have smaller dice pools). There seems to be little middle ground as is...

[Bahamut810]

There is little middle ground.

What you need to remember is that Hardbody is a rare enhancement, just as rare as Agg damage is.

[Alex Green]

My idea for a change: Hardbody allows you to apply your lethal *Stamina* soak to aggravated attacks, instead. Perhaps as a tradeoff for the weakening, make it a full scene power.

Not weakened, nerfed unless you happen to be a Stamina Brick.

Disin can *easily* toss out 8+ levels of Aggravated damage.

Lotus Infinite averages 12 before we add in acc succ.

If I'm not a Stamina Brick then I'm simply not going to buy something that gives me 3 points of Aggravated Defense, especially not when Armor+Imperv is available for 9 exp. Heck, even if I am a Stamina Brick I'm probably not going to get a defense that gives me only 8 or 10 points of defense.

Even INV:Aggravated Attacks would be much better than Hardbody if HB only used Stamina soak, and the INV would cost 6 exp.

[SkyLion]

Not weakened, nerfed

Though given the sore subject of Agg claws, there are some definite scruffy-looking nerf-herders around here... ::glare

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"I have a new idea R2...let the wookie win..." ::tongue

[metaphysician]

Not weakened, nerfed unless you happen to be a Stamina Brick.

Disin can *easily* toss out 8+ levels of Aggravated damage.

Lotus Infinite averages 12 before we add in acc succ.

If I'm not a Stamina Brick then I'm simply not going to buy something that gives me 3 points of Aggravated Defense, especially not when Armor+Imperv is available for 9 exp. Heck, even if I am a Stamina Brick I'm probably not going to get a defense that gives me only 8 or 10 points of defense.

Even INV:Aggravated Attacks would be much better than Hardbody if HB only used Stamina soak, and the INV would cost 6 exp.

The fact that you need higher Stamina to make it worthwhile might be considered a feature by some. ::smile

The thing is, as it currently stands, all you need is a single dot of mega-stamina and one enhancement, a cost of 5 XP whether you have Mega-Stamina or not, to become effectively immune to aggravated attacks. This just doesn't strike me as right.

Now, yes, Disintegrate can easily toss out 8+ agg. . . but thats for one or more dots of a level 3 power with a quantum 5 minimum. Whereas the defense is a enhancement that doesn't even need a high mega-attribute to be effective.

[SkyLion]

...you would still need a respectable lethal soak though...

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also Eufiber adds to this since its attuned with your mega-stamina...

[Bahamut810]

The thing is, as it currently stands, all you need is a single dot of mega-stamina and one enhancement, a cost of 5 XP whether you have Mega-Stamina or not, to become effectively immune to aggravated attacks. This just doesn't strike me as right.

Thing is...people dont think to spend that XP to get the enhancement (wether you have M-stm currently or not) its going to be too late to be able to save you from that initial aggro damage. And even then it might not fit the consept for the character, or you might not think you will run into aggro damage again.

Its appropriate the way it is because its only applicable in an extremely limited situation, and it dosent make the heal times for the aggro damage any less (if I remember correctly). It only allows you to soak aggro damage with your lethal soak.

[Alex Green]

also Eufiber adds to this since its attuned with your mega-stamina...

Eufiber doesn't have stamina. It would attune to you, it would share the Hardbody's defense, but it's soak doesn't come from Stamina so it wouldn't apply.

The fact that you need higher Stamina to make it worthwhile might be considered a feature by some. ::smile

The thing is, as it currently stands, all you need is a single dot of mega-stamina and one enhancement, a cost of 5 XP whether you have Mega-Stamina or not, to become effectively immune to aggravated attacks. This just doesn't strike me as right.

Unlike all the other Agg defenses, HB costs quantum. That can be a problem in a number of ways. HB is slightly less expensive than the other defenses, but it's also more vulnerable to juice loss and as such, less attractive. It also allows ping damage to be done as Agg, which is something else that Imperv doesn't allow.

Normally when I'm running a Stamina Brick of some sort I don't bother with HB. Imperv is superior in every way, granted it's slight more expensive, but it's more than worth it.

And I'll repeat, if you lower it's effect below that of INV:Agg, then don't expect it to be used.

Now, yes, Disintegrate can easily toss out 8+ agg. . . but thats for one or more dots of a level 3 power with a quantum 5 minimum. Whereas the defense is a enhancement that doesn't even need a high mega-attribute to be effective.

Can you name other speciality attack(s) that *isn't* nerf'ed by 3 nova points in the defense?

[BlueNinja]

Can you name other speciality attack(s) that *isn't* nerf'ed by 3 nova points in the defense?

Disorient. ::tongue Possibly Holo, depending on use.

[metaphysician]

Is that 3 XP or 3 nova points?

Here's one: Stun Attack. For the same price as a couple of dots of mega-dex backed disintegrate, you could have a Stun Attack that while stun someone with 5 sta and Inv: Stun Attack 1, or KO them on a good roll. In order to stop it dead, you'd need a couple dots of mega-stamina as well.

The thing is, as written, those 3 points to purchase Hardbody will stop an agg attack, regardless of what source of lethal defense the character has. Mega Stamina, Eufiber, Armor, Force Field, suite techniques, even mundane physical armor.

( maybe this is a design philosophy issue? I have a hard time imagining building a character with much less than 10 lethal soak, that is intended to have any real chance of surviving major firepower. . . )

[BlueNinja]

The thing is, as written, those 3 points to purchase Hardbody will stop an agg attack, regardless of what source of lethal defense the character has. Mega Stamina, Eufiber, Armor, Force Field, suite techniques, even mundane physical armor.

As a ST, I would not let external armor stack with effects like Impervious and Hardbody, even if attuned.

[Alex Green]

Disorient. ::tongue Possibly Holo, depending on use.

Holo is nerf'ed by the various Sensory powers, Q-Aware among others.

Disorient IMHO should be countered by Sensory Shield.

Here's one: Stun Attack. For the same price as a couple of dots of mega-dex backed disintegrate, you could have a Stun Attack that while stun someone with 5 sta and Inv: Stun Attack 1, or KO them on a good roll. In order to stop it dead, you'd need a couple dots of mega-stamina as well.

Stun Attack with Q5, and Mega-Dex 1.

This means it averages 8 succ on the attack (that's not total because it's resisted).

Our Defense: Mega-Stamina 1 (costing 3 N)

Our defensive roll averages 3, so the total effect was 5, and bounces totally.

But let's increase the Attacker's Mega-Dex to 3, so his attack roll is 10.

Our defensive roll averages 3, so the total effect was 7... which *still* bounces totally since you need to get above our Stamina + 2 * Mega-Stamina.

If you really max out then you might be able to get above our 3 Nova Point defense... however that's true with the other special attacks as well. However another 3 nova points will then shut you down totally. In this case another dot of Mega-Stamina.

And note that if we got INV:Stun (which assumes the ST allows INV to be used against any resisted attack and not just the willpower ones) then the outcome is actually even more one sided.

[SkyLion]

As a ST, I would not let external armor stack with effects like Impervious and Hardbody, even if attuned.

Huh??? you can buy armor as impervious....

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oh..you meant artificial armor...

[metaphysician]

*blink*blink*

You know, never noticed that Stun Attack allowed a rolled Stamina defense.

Seems rather double-dipping. . .

[Alex Green]

Seems rather double-dipping. . .

Against those without Mega-Stamina (i.e. without the 3NP defense) Stun attack does very nicely. Our sample attacks did 8 succ and 10 succ (gross, not net), so they just hose someone who doesn't have the defense, which of course includes all baselines. It's also an effect that ignores soak, can't kill, has a very good range, and on top of all that is a level 2 power so you could put Area on it. It's a very nice, if under used, attack. I've been in all sorts of situations where stunning *all* baselines and even novas without Mega-Stamina over a large area would have been insanely useful.

However, most PCs have Mega-Stamina, so they tend to under value it.

[Blue Thunder]

Disorient IMHO should be countered by Sensory Shield.

Disorient doesnt have to attack a target's senses. It can be used as a naueseating power that makes someone dizzy, and maybe even vomit. It could even be telepathic in nature.

[Alex Green]

Disorient doesnt have to attack a target's senses. It can be used as a naueseating power that makes someone dizzy, and maybe even vomit. It could even be telepathic in nature.

Except for Telepathy these are still sensory attacks.

We humans have the big 5 senses (sight, sound, hearing, taste, smell). However we also have a host of other senses that don’t get as much press, some of which barely have names. Balance, that sense that tells you where your hand is when you aren’t looking at it, and various others which monitor how you are feeling, etc. Heck, even “orientation” is basically a sense (close your eyes, can you tell where “Up” is?)

"Dizzy" means your sense of balance is out of whack. “Nausea” means your senses are telling you you’ve been poisoned and it’s time to purge your stomach. These sound like effects that a sensory shield should shield against.

Better still, when you look at how someone might induce “nausea” and the like, we quickly get the example of Tear Gas, which is also an example of something Sensory Shield works against.

[SkyLion]

Re: Mega Stamia protecting alot vs. Stun....This only makes sense...

And That sense of balance and position in space you were speaking of Alex is called proprioception for anyone who didnt know...

[Centimane]

Re: Mega Stamia protecting alot vs. Stun....This only makes sense...

And That sense of balance and position in space you were speaking of Alex is called proprioception for anyone who didnt know...

I did *not* know that!

Thanks SkyLion!

[SkyLion]

Yeah...we actually have several "6th senses..."

and you're welcome! ::happy

[Centimane]

Yeah...we actually have several "6th senses..."

and you're welcome! ::happy

So, what're the others?

Just curious. ::smile

[metaphysician]

Actually, I think proprioception refers to the "sense" of body position. It has more to do with muscle feedback then gravity.

In any case, aside from balance and body position, there's also the chemical sense ( similar to taste, except its applicable through the skin ). In addition, the "sense of touch" is really a bunch of separate senses, as there really is no connection between how our skin measures, say, temperature and pressure, except that the skin is where the sense nerves are.

[Alex Green]

Exactly. Following that logic IMHO Sensory Shield should apply against Disorient (I wouldn't bother with Psi-Shield working with the "telepathic" attack... orientation appears to be close enough to being a sense), and that Spacial Manip Perception attack.

[SkyLion]

Actually, I think proprioception refers to the "sense" of body position. It has more to do with muscle feedback then gravity.

In any case, aside from balance and body position, there's also the chemical sense ( similar to taste, except its applicable through the skin ). In addition, the "sense of touch" is really a bunch of separate senses, as there really is no connection between how our skin measures, say, temperature and pressure, except that the skin is where the sense nerves are.

You are correct, and thats what I said. The sense of position in space. and the muscle feedback is registering gravity...so we are saying the same thing. And it is intertwined with the sense of balance since balance is based on the perception of where you are in space etc....

thats the trick....all our senses are really just one sense....Its the sensory nerves that are transmitting info to the brain, which is the real sensory organ....