Aberrant: 200X - Democracy in Action!

[Fortune's Son]

I am growing to like you, Velvet.

[Seph OOC]

Originally Posted By: The White Rat

If for one, think he is justified in his anger. A vote needs to be done. We can discuss until we are blue in the face, but a decision can only be made with the consent of the governed (majority vote). What are we waiting for?

Let me preface this by saying that I like you, man. I know you catch a lot of shit around here for being our resident right-wing screwball, but as someone who hates dirty hippies as much as he hates Bible-thumpers, I get where you're coming from on a lot of things.

Having said that, there does not have to be a vote. This forum isn't a democracy, and the "votes" that have happened here in the past were votes that were held by individuals who chose to making voting a part of the startup process for their new forum. This site is, in fact, a dictatorship, with Matt as el Presidente. Shit like voting or polling that may go on within that dictatorship is akin to states holding referendums on subjects that the federal government doesn't legislate.

What this means is that Nova isn't violating any rule, written or otherwise, by not holding a vote on these subjects. Like it or lump it, the current project is hers, and she's making the rules. She's also doing a lot in the way of compromise and making sure everyone is heard, but in the end, Nova represents a benevolent dictatorship city-state within the framework of a larger benevolent dictatorship run by Matt.

The thing is, you're not beholden by any of this. As Hugin said, you can vote with your feet and not take part in this part of the forum. 2018 is still up and still unregulated. Alternatively, you can try to drum up support for a subforum of your own, one with looser restrictions and geared more towards the kind of consequence-heavy play you're pining for. (I should point out that I happen to enjoy that style of play, too.) Or, you can raise your points and try to win compromises through logic and persuasion. You've done a lot of that so far, and I happen to agree with many points you've made. You can even call for a vote. What you can't do is say that we must have a vote or that the governance of this subforum can only be by the assent of the governed, because that just ain't so.

[Seph OOC]

Overload.

As a Moderator for the current incarnation of the 2008 forum (such as it is), I've volunteered to be your liaison. I have no doubt that Nova will still read your posts (as much as she ever has) and you may bristle at the idea of not being able to address her directly any further, but nevertheless, please be consoled in knowing that whether I agree with all of Nova's decisions or not, I stand as part of the Team Mod and support the decisions of my team. What this means is that speaking to me is effectively as good as speaking to all of us.

Now. You are welcome to participate or not participate in the 2008 forum. If you find the rules as presented to be unbearable, you're welcome to not play, and that's regrettable, because, hey, frankly, we need all the players we can get, around here. Conversely, we'd be happy to have you play if you can resolve yourself to playing by the rules.

I understand that you have a problem with some of the rules. That's legitimate. I have a problem with some of them, too, and I've outlined those complaints in the relevant thread. As I mention in the above post to White Rat, however, the 2008 forum isn't a democracy, and as bitter as this might be, we do not necessarily have to have a vote about anything at all. The only voting to be done here is with your feet: if you do not like the rules, you can opt to not participate. That goes for everyone, but you must understand, by the sheer volume of people who have chosen to participate, most people agree that this dictatorship is a benevolent one. We are always willing to entertain arguments for the modification, addition, and subtraction of certain rules, but (I'm going to put this in it's own section, because it's important) -

your personal dissent against or approval of the rules does not make or break the 2008 forum, and until such a time as you have presented a persuasive and thoughtful argument articulating your points in such a manner that a significant number of members agree with you, it stands, at present, that your arguments have been shut down. This makes you angry, and I understand that. But lashing out and calling the Mods Nazis and totalitarians is not winning you any points, and indeed, is the reason that you and your dissent is quickly becoming a joke. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to calm the fuck down, stop overreacting, and deal with your complaints calmly and with civility.

If your complaints still don't get the attention you want, maybe that should tell you something. Maybe it should tell you that the 2008 forum isn't a good fit for you. That's okay. We're trying to be as all-inclusive as possible, but we can't possibly accommodate everybody. Thankfully the nature of N! Prime is such that you can try to gather support for another subforum, or even enjoy the ones that already exist. What you cannot do, however, is continue to be abusive and pissy and state your demands again and again without providing any fresh rationale for them. It will not be tolerated indefinitely.

Having said that, we welcome you to play all the same and would be glad to have your contribution. We also welcome your dissent, we simply require that it be constructive dissent. If you want to make things better by changing the rules, you will need robust arguments that people can get behind. We'd all be thrilled to be proven wrong. Honestly, truly, we'd love it. Because anything we can be shown to be wrong on means we've found a way to improve the experience for everyone here. So by all means, Overload, please, prove us wrong. Otherwise, please, stay and play. And if you cannot resolve yourself to either of those, then please, don't ruin the experience for everyone else.

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

This is a revote for all the things in the original thread. Point cap, advancment, taint, Q5+ the works. Those original votes were never counted. This time its official.

I've spoken my piece all over these disscussion threads. I'll be damned before I'll repeat myself.

I shouldn't have too. If you, or anyone else, were reading instead of bitching you'll know where I stand.

[Hugin]

Seems like Overload has gone bye-bye. Shall we move on?

[Nova OOC]

Yes. Let's. Chosen, lock please?

[Drew]

Kinda jumping the gun there, Pedro.

[SkyLion]

Originally Posted By: Seph OOC

Overload.

As a Moderator for the current incarnation of the 2008 forum (such as it is), I've volunteered to be your liaison. I have no doubt that Nova will still read your posts (as much as she ever has) and you may bristle at the idea of not being able to address her directly any further, but nevertheless, please be consoled in knowing that whether I agree with all of Nova's decisions or not, I stand as part of the Team Mod and support the decisions of my team. What this means is that speaking to me is effectively as good as speaking to all of us.

Now. You are welcome to participate or not participate in the 2008 forum. If you find the rules as presented to be unbearable, you're welcome to not play, and that's regrettable, because, hey, frankly, we need all the players we can get, around here. Conversely, we'd be happy to have you play if you can resolve yourself to playing by the rules.

I understand that you have a problem with some of the rules. That's legitimate. I have a problem with some of them, too, and I've outlined those complaints in the relevant thread. As I mention in the above post to White Rat, however, the 2008 forum isn't a democracy, and as bitter as this might be, we do not necessarily have to have a vote about anything at all. The only voting to be done here is with your feet: if you do not like the rules, you can opt to not participate. That goes for everyone, but you must understand, by the sheer volume of people who have chosen to participate, most people agree that this dictatorship is a benevolent one. We are always willing to entertain arguments for the modification, addition, and subtraction of certain rules, but (I'm going to put this in it's own section, because it's important) -

your personal dissent against or approval of the rules does not make or break the 2008 forum, and until such a time as you have presented a persuasive and thoughtful argument articulating your points in such a manner that a significant number of members agree with you, it stands, at present, that your arguments have been shut down. This makes you angry, and I understand that. But lashing out and calling the Mods Nazis and totalitarians is not winning you any points, and indeed, is the reason that you and your dissent is quickly becoming a joke. If you want to be taken seriously, you need to calm the fuck down, stop overreacting, and deal with your complaints calmly and with civility.

If your complaints still don't get the attention you want, maybe that should tell you something. Maybe it should tell you that the 2008 forum isn't a good fit for you. That's okay. We're trying to be as all-inclusive as possible, but we can't possibly accommodate everybody. Thankfully the nature of N! Prime is such that you can try to gather support for another subforum, or even enjoy the ones that already exist. What you cannot do, however, is continue to be abusive and pissy and state your demands again and again without providing any fresh rationale for them. It will not be tolerated indefinitely.

Having said that, we welcome you to play all the same and would be glad to have your contribution. We also welcome your dissent, we simply require that it be constructive dissent. If you want to make things better by changing the rules, you will need robust arguments that people can get behind. We'd all be thrilled to be proven wrong. Honestly, truly, we'd love it. Because anything we can be shown to be wrong on means we've found a way to improve the experience for everyone here. So by all means, Overload, please, prove us wrong. Otherwise, please, stay and play. And if you cannot resolve yourself to either of those, then please, don't ruin the experience for everyone else.

I wan't talking about 2008. I was talking about this 200x thingy.

I am going to go and personally recount the votes put in in the other thread, since Rev and others dont seem to be interested in retyping or reposting them. Maybe I'll perform a compilation if I have time.

What really makes me mad is that Nova and Friends claim so magnanimously to be doing something for us but its really for them. For their own little clique.

If you were really doing this for everyone you wouldn't have been afriad of an official vote. Im not afraid. So the majority vote against my preferences. Nuff said. You could have silenced me long ago but you tried to shame me into silence. Well my response to that was basically a big F-U to what I see as arrogance and favoritism.

And no need to lock this thread. This "discussion" (to use your term) isn't over yet.

[Nova OOC]

It may as well be over. I'm done talking to you. Thanks to your unjustified invective, your opinion isn't worth a thing around here.

Just go away.

[Velvet]

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

I wan't talking about 2008. I was talking about this 200x thingy.

"This 200X thingy" is going to be 2008, so far as I know, leaving 2018 and 2010 as separate forums (barring their closure, of course.) I'm not addressing the rest of your post because it's just more vitriol, and I'm sure Seph can handle his own business.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

If you were really doing this for everyone you wouldn't have been afriad of an official vote.

I'm suspect we'll have that after everyone has their say and gets the chance to influence each other.

I also suspect Nova's proposal was built around the center of mass of what's been said, meaning I'd be surprised if the rules change much from it.

[SkyLion]

Originally Posted By: Nova OOC

It may as well be over. I'm done talking to you. Thanks to your unjustified invective, your opinion isn't worth a thing around here.

Just go away.

Make me...

[Wargear]

(An apology to Nova and Seph in advance for speaking for them. If either of you dislike what I put down, feel free to ignore/disown it.)

Overload,

Congradulations. You've seized upon our clever strategem. We are not, in fact, doing this for everyone.

The 2008 (or 200x, if you prefer) forum is being designed to address some of the problems a lot of people here on the board have found a real barrier to successful play. It's being designed with a certain philosophy (Nova's, at the core, with modifications being made by people with constructive suggestions) and with a certain basic structure so that it can be a place on which a kind of play (civil, collective and story-driven) that has been hard to make happen on the 2018 and 2010 boards can be carried out for the enjoyment of those who want it and who, at present, can't get it.

And, for the record, this is inaccurate: "Nova and Friends claim so magnanimously to be doing something for us but its really for them. For their own little clique." We are neither doing this for everyone, or for some little clique. We're doing this for the people, and there are a good number of them, who feel underserved by the current board and want to try something new. Something, we hope, better. And if it's successful, then people will vote with their feet by playing in it. If it isn't, they won't. But we are not "afraid" of a vote, because some sort of mass collective vote would miss the whole point.

We are creating an enviornment to play this game and tell these stories in a way we think they can be enjoyably played. If you like it and are willing to play by the rules we set up, huzzah. If you don't, pick any of the several other forums on the board that's more to your taste. Either way, suit yourself. But kindly stop treating your effort as a people's crusade against "arrogance and favoritism." We aren't claiming you have to play our way or hit the highway. We are saying that if you don't like what's being served here, there's lots of other places to eat.

[Nova OOC]

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

Originally Posted By: Nova OOC

It may as well be over. I'm done talking to you. Thanks to your unjustified invective, your opinion isn't worth a thing around here.

Just go away.

Make me...

I shouldn't have to make you go away. You should recognize on your own that you have poisoned the well against yourself and that you will not prosper here.

You will not participate in 200X. Go away.

[Hugin]

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

Originally Posted By: Nova OOC

It may as well be over. I'm done talking to you. Thanks to your unjustified invective, your opinion isn't worth a thing around here.

Just go away.

Make me...

Oh......fuck you very much. Fuck you. Not your ideas, not your statements, not your arguments. Fuck YOU. You're a shit. An asshole. A pain-in-the-ass motherfucker that doesn't have the ability to converse in a decent fashion with sane people.

Fucking die. Catch some horrible disease and die by inches. Take your own goddamn life and leave the world a better fucking place.

"Make me"?!?


What is fucking wrong with you? Are you brave enough to be this much of an unrepentent shit in person? Where people can actually throw things at your thick head to see if it's as hollow as it seems? Or is it only in here that you've got the sense of self to be so irrevocably fucked up?

[SkyLion]

Originally Posted By: Wargear

(An apology to Nova and Seph in advance for speaking for them. If either of you dislike what I put down, feel free to ignore/disown it.)

Overload,

Congradulations. You've seized upon our clever strategem. We are not, in fact, doing this for everyone.

The 2008 (or 200x, if you prefer) forum is being designed to address some of the problems a lot of people here on the board have found a real barrier to successful play. It's being designed with a certain philosophy (Nova's, at the core, with modifications being made by people with constructive suggestions) and with a certain basic structure so that it can be a place on which a kind of play (civil, collective and story-driven) that has been hard to make happen on the 2018 and 2010 boards can be carried out for the enjoyment of those who want it and who, at present, can't get it.

And, for the record, this is inaccurate: "Nova and Friends claim so magnanimously to be doing something for us but its really for them. For their own little clique." We are neither doing this for everyone, or for some little clique. We're doing this for the people, and there are a good number of them, who feel underserved by the current board and want to try something new. Something, we hope, better. And if it's successful, then people will vote with their feet by playing in it. If it isn't, they won't. But we are not "afraid" of a vote, because some sort of mass collective vote would miss the whole point.

We are creating an enviornment to play this game and tell these stories in a way we think they can be enjoyably played. If you like it and are willing to play by the rules we set up, huzzah. If you don't, pick any of the several other forums on the board that's more to your taste. Either way, suit yourself. But kindly stop treating your effort as a people's crusade against "arrogance and favoritism." We aren't claiming you have to play our way or hit the highway. We are saying that if you don't like what's being served here, there's lots of other places to eat.

I didnt mean everyone should vote. Obviously only the people that are interested in participating are going to vote...

Quote:

You will not participate in 200X. Go away.

Again the queen makes her decrees. How are you going to stop me? harsh language? How will you know if I create a new account and join in? I dont see why you and you alone should have veto power. If Seph and Fox dont want me to participate maybe I will have second thoughts but you alone should not be able to make that decision. You have made this personal. You are too close to it so should not be given veto power over me...

Originally Posted By: hugin

lame attempts at upsetting Overload

Whatever. Nothing you say nor your opinions of me are going to make me question myself. Cuz guess what? You don't even fucking know me. And now that you all are joining in the insults having chastized me for such I suppose that makes us the same. Except Im not taking any of this personally. Ha Ha.

[Nova OOC]

He's trolling. He's got to be. Nobody could possibly be that messed-up.

[Wargear]

Okay... yeah. Overload, I've really been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here, but the level of stupidity in that last post was just astonishing. Unless and until you come up with a reasoned and logical argument, I'm going to go back to work and stop trying to have a sane discussion with you.

[Seph OOC]

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

If you were really doing this for everyone you wouldn't have been afriad of an official vote. Im not afraid. So the majority vote against my preferences.

Oh, Overload. Allow me to explain this again, and I will do so in one sentence so as to not muddle my point: The new forum isn't a democracy and any polling that's done as an adjunct to its creation is simply for the purposes of consideration. You can tally votes until next year, and it will avail you nothing. Think of us like the electoral college: the popular vote can provoke a mandate, but in the end, the decision lies with Nova. It is in Nova's best interests to serve as many people as she can, and so that's what she's trying to do. However, any valid points you can make are being lost in a sea of vitriol. It has gotten to the point that you have no point, and if you do, nobody can tell.

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

You could have silenced me long ago but you tried to shame me into silence. Well my response to that was basically a big F-U to what I see as arrogance and favoritism.

Nobody's silencing you and nobody's showing favoritism. You are imagining persecution where none exists, sir. The adversity you're facing is a direct result of your attitude of aggression and hostility, which you have displayed prominently since the start.

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

And no need to lock this thread. This "discussion" (to use your term) isn't over yet.

I wouldn't lock this thread if I could. I have no interest in censoring dissent. The truth is that you're doing a marvelous job of slitting your own throat: why should I help?

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

If Seph and Fox dont want me to participate maybe I will have second thoughts but you alone should not be able to make that decision. You have made this personal. You are too close to it so should not be given veto power over me...

As always, Overload, I take the attitude of unilateral acceptance for all players, no matter how much I may disagree with them, provided they are not disruptive to what we do here. I have no interest in banning you, and neither does Mr. Fox or Nova, despite her bald-faced preference that you choose not to play.

If you cannot exercise civility and restraint enough to play with us, you will be simply ignored. It's only if yours - or anybody's - presence becomes a disruptive influence on the game that we would even consider banning someone from play.

In no uncertain terms, the ball is entirely in your court.

[SkyLion]

Seph I appreciate your comments I really do. But I still cant help but feel I am being demonized. You say Nova doesnt want to ban me from play. Yet she specifically stated: "You will not play in 2008. Go away.

I know its to the point now that you arent really taking anything i say seriously but I hope you will hear this. My vitriol has been in response to her and her attitude this whole time. its not like I have been unprovoked. Ive been getting just as much shit dished back at me.

[Seph OOC]

Dude, you're being demonized because you're being kind of a douche. I know you probably don't think so. In fact, it's generally my experience that most people don't consciously make a decision to make themselves look bad or do something cruel or mean, so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that I'd extend to anybody. But you have to understand, it is how you're coming across.

Despite what Nova said, nobody's kicking you out of 2008. But you need to play nice. Where you cannot agree, you need to be civil. Where you cannot be civil, you need to shut up. With the caveat that I don't want to speak for Nova, I believe what she was saying was that your current pattern of behavior will lead you to a very brief shelf life on that forum, since, while certainly not ban-happy, I believe that the 2008 Mod team will be more willing to employ that punishment than people have in the past, if only because of the emphasis on story-telling and communal cohesion that this new forum represents.

I cannot speak on how Nova has dealt with you during this, but it is worth observing that most people have explicitly sided with her and against you. That isn't just favoritism: whether you realize it or not, you really are coming off as the dick, here, and if you want to be taken seriously, you need to crank that shit down, okay?

[Ashnod]

Hmmm...after reading the following ...

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

As for you Nova, who made you Queen?

Responded with -

Originally Posted By: Nova OOC

I did. It's my idea. I've been spending almost all of my free time working on 200X since the origin of the idea.

Responded with -

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

THE TRUTH COMES OUT! THE ARROGANCE REVEALED! FROM HER OWN LIPS THE REVELATION!

Responded with -

Originally Posted By: Nova OOC

Call it a poll instead of a vote, then. This is not an unlimited democracy.

Hell yes I have a vision. However, it is not perfect or all-encompassing. That's why I've spent the last ten days talking to everyone about what they want, too, and trying my level best to incorporate as many good ideas into 200X as I can. If I was the nazi you claim, I would have done none of this. I would have posted my 200X Bible and told everyone to like it or leave. I didn't. I continue to solicit input. Most of what's posted in the 200X Bible is other people's work.

You fail.

Responded with -

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

Asking for input and then ignoring it..shyeah.

This is not an unlimited democracy. Translation: if I dont like your vote I reserve the right to ignore it.

Hands in favor of democratizing this debocle???

:raises hand:

Responded with -

Originally Posted By: Nova OOC

You're making a fool of yourself. Calm down.

Responded with -

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

Jager and I have propoed an ACTUAL Vote. This is to be in a new topic in this sub forum. These votes are to be counted.

and

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

Obviously votes don't count. Nova is Queen after all and disagreements with her decisions are to be summarily ignored.

Responded with -

Originally Posted By: Nova OOC

Overload, you're really starting to get on my nerves. You've been pushy, overbearing, foul, and rude. Since this is a setting based on cooperation, I really don't think you're getting it. I am not encouraged at the prospect of your participation in the 200X era if you continue the way you are.

That said, I will discuss your questions.

The vote tally for 50 or 60NP is in the middle of another thread, and it was discussed beyond that point. I'm not going to recreate all of that. I have coupled the NP cap and NP advancement in a compromise move that should make everyone happy.

The mechanism for taint is as published. Dots may be purchased tainted for half NP cost, rounded against the character. You get more power at the cost of more taint. The NP cap may not be exceeded, and has nothing to do with the purchase of tainted dots.

The point is storytelling.

and

Originally Posted By: Nova OOC

I'm ignoring you because you're hostile, aggressive, and not at all cooperative. In other words, you're what I wanted to get away from.

Responded with -

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

My rudeness has been in direct proportion to you trying to tell us "how its going to be." For a window into this please see your idea for the NP cap. I am not encouraged by your reasoning to abandon a vote (or even go back in the thread and look it up.) If our votes werent to be counted and you were just going to come up with your own little ideal then why even bother asking us. Jesus.

I have as much a right to be here on this public forum as anyone else. I also have the right to disagree with you, publicly. If I am banned for sharing my disagrements or being passionate about them it will only prove the fascism that I see brewing here.

Responded with:

Originally Posted By: Nova OOC

Yeah, heaven forbid I take any role in the shaping of my idea. Once I posted my idea 10 days ago, I should have walked away and let everyone vote on everything and we'd have a perfect system.

That's sarcasm, by the way.

Responded with -

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

Its OverloAd not OverloRd...OverloRds is what you and Nova are trying to become...

and

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

Maybe if you tried allowing a vote instead of berating me with your fear of losing control I would mellow out. As it is your draconian insistence and attempts to shame me into silence only make me feel more justified in opposing you.

and

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

I just want to see where the majority stands and have felt unjustly blocked and ridiculed for standing up and speaking out against what I feel to be unfair.

It is unfair to try and rush through some kind of charter and ignore the constituents desires...

and

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

Here is the place for us to vote and have those votes be heard! Don't be shy!

Responded with -

Originally Posted By: Nova OOC

I vote for you to stop embarassing yourself.

Responded with -

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

I'm not embarrased! I feel like the founding fathers when they stood up to King George! Don't let her kill democracy people! She is afraid of the Vote! If people genuinely vote I will submit myself to the majority. Only one vote per player please. no fair logging on with multiple IDs.

and

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

This is a revote for all the things in the original thread. Point cap, advancment, taint, Q5+ the works. Those original votes were never counted. This time its official.

Responded with -

Originally Posted By: Nova OOC

You're being disingenuous. I've been soliciting the input of the majority from the beginning. Don't paint yourself as the champion of the people and me as a tyrant. It's unfair and untrue.

Responded with -

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

all i am saying (and others have backed me) is that we want to see where the majority lies. I am not being disingenuous. I am genuinely pissed that the original votes (poll whatever) were not actually copunted and held accountable for.

I am most certainly NOT embarrased. I take no offesnse at your comments FS. From the beginning you and Nova were acting cuddly.

So...

Are we going to allow a vote or have it be smacked down by the autocracy?

and

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

It is obcious to me that both Nova and FS FEAR what may come of an honest vote. They fear losing control of THEIR vision. I on the other hand as I have stated will happily submit to a vote of by and for the troupe.

Dont let them kill our voice! Vote people!

and

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

I honestly dont see the problem with a legitimate vote? I am really being reasonable here. I am trying real hard to temper my temper and be civil but seeing blatant attempts to squash the majority in favor of 2 peoples cuddly vision really REALLY pisses me off.

This is not their site. Its for all of us. Let the vote happen and let it be counted and adhered to. I am very sincere when i say that I will be placated by a real vote.

and

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

I wan't talking about 2008. I was talking about this 200x thingy.

I am going to go and personally recount the votes put in in the other thread, since Rev and others dont seem to be interested in retyping or reposting them. Maybe I'll perform a compilation if I have time.

What really makes me mad is that Nova and Friends claim so magnanimously to be doing something for us but its really for them. For their own little clique.

If you were really doing this for everyone you wouldn't have been afriad of an official vote. Im not afraid. So the majority vote against my preferences. Nuff said. You could have silenced me long ago but you tried to shame me into silence. Well my response to that was basically a big F-U to what I see as arrogance and favoritism.

And no need to lock this thread. This "discussion" (to use your term) isn't over yet.

Responded with -

Originally Posted By: Nova OOC

It may as well be over. I'm done talking to you. Thanks to your unjustified invective, your opinion isn't worth a thing around here.

Just go away.

Responded with -

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

Make me...

I think a new vote should be called, since the call for democracy has been screamed and screamed for. Whom handled this situation with more dignity?

[Wargear]

Ashnod,

Flawless victory. Thank you.

Now, shall we get on with business, people?

[The White Rat]

Originally Posted By: Wargear

We are neither doing this for everyone, or for some little clique. We're doing this for the people, and there are a good number of them, who feel underserved by the current board and want to try something new. Something, we hope, better. And if it's successful, then people will vote with their feet by playing in it. If it isn't, they won't. But we are not "afraid" of a vote, because some sort of mass collective vote would miss the whole point.

If you are not afraid of a vote, they why not have a vote? You say they are doing this for a 'good number of them'. If they really are speaking for them, then a vote will prove they are correct, they will have the people on their side. If not, then the majority will have said so. If you want it to succeed, you will need the majority of the people on board.

I want a reboot too, but I also want a voice beyond an opinion.

Originally Posted By: Wargear

sort of mass collective vote would miss the whole point

And what is the point anyways?

I understand that this is the project of a few people, but it is a community. Shouldn't a community get to decide what it wants?

[Wargear]

Actually, WR, you're wrong. We don't need anything like a majority of the people on the board. We're not shutting down either of the other forums (to my knowledge) and we're not asking everyone to pick up and move. So, assuming that enough people shift over to make a smooth and functional universe, that's entirely sufficent.

To put it another way: you don't ask a community if you should open a bar, or hold a vote for it. You open the bar, stock your product, and see who shows up.

Now, do you have anything beyond "will of the majority" rhetoric to add, or is that it?

[SkyLion]

That was awesome Ashnod. Thank you. It makes it easy to see how things were taken persoanlly and things snowballed.

All I ever wanted for was for there to be an honest vote and have the new forum accurately represent the majority of active participants in the discussion. I first realized that some of us were being ignored when it seemed like the majority had asked for 60 NPS but she went and placed it at 50.

Of course with this new proposal for Fee Quantum of 3 I am happy. It gives me more leeway to spend those points in my high end (ie Q4 or 5) characters in the enhancements and such to complete a theme.

All I ever wanted was a vote. It was the snide vote for me to stop embarrasing myself that got me to start feeling ans speaking nasty. I didnt think a call for a vote was so out of the question since we should find a mojority consensus if possible. I also repeatedly said that if say the majority voted for 50 NP or whatever I would be fine with it. I just wanted to make sure it was a forum by the people for the people yanno?

[SkyLion]

Quote:

I understand that this is the project of a few people, but it is a community. Shouldn't a community get to decide what it wants?

Even chosen echoed that one...

[SkyLion]

Wargear, the idea is that all of the participants should have a real say. Nova proposed the idea and she is more than welcome to type things up but this is the internet for god sake and a gaming forum. Its like the only place a true democracy can even exist practically. if the majority of participants want it to be a certain way why should they be naysayed by a vocal minority who have their own agendas?

Like I said, the other day in Chat even Chosen was trying to get Nova to see that she could only lead if we elected her to, and that she should allow the community of participants to shape things not just foolow what she thinks is the right way.

[The White Rat]

Originally Posted By: Wargear

Now, do you have anything beyond "will of the majority" rhetoric to add, or is that it?

That is about as arrogant as it gets. Condescending too.

Quote:

To put it another way: you don't ask a community if you should open a bar, or hold a vote for it. You open the bar, stock your product, and see who shows up.

That's funny, I didn't know we could purchase our own forum to do as we please. Thanks for the tip.

Quote:

We don't need anything like a majority of the people on the board.

That reminds me of another quote:

Quote:

"There must be no majority decisions, but only responsible persons, and the word 'council' must be restored to its original meaning. Surely every man will have advisers by his side, but the decision will be made by one man."

or this one:

Quote:

"They should not become a constable of public opinion, but must dominate it. It must not become a servant of the masses, but their master!".

I will leave it to you to find out who said these.

[Ashnod]

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

Wargear, the idea is that all of the participants should have a real say. Its like the only place a true democracy can even exist practically. if the majority of participants want it to be a certain way why should they be naysayed by a vocal minority who have their own agendas?

Exactly what agenda are you referring to? It's not as though there is something subversive with limiting character generation to 50 points. It's not even oppressive.

The truth is that those who want 60 points also have their own agendas for wanting those points.

The use of the agenda in your post seems to imply a sinister and purposeful initiative. I could make a better case for you having an agenda with your overbearing calls for democracy and to fight fascism; ergo, playing sympathy cards and painting yourself out to be a persecuted party with the ultimate goal of having a more powerful character from the get-go.

[SkyLion]

The minute I asked for a vote and was ridiculed for it I became "persecuted."

The agenda I was refering to was having things her own way.

Let me say it yet AGAIN. It seemed like the majority vote was for 60, and it seemed that NOva ignored that.

My "agenda" was to see that mine and others preferences were not steamrolled. When merely asking for a true vote made me a target I started fighting back. But you know that already..you compiled all mine and novas pertinent quotes.

Also I made it clear I wanted to start with higher powered characters. As did several others. My reason was the same as Fox's: we rarely get to play in high powered games. When I started in Baalt I had 65 NPs. They dont go far. I had one mega Att at 5, a couple more at 1 and a few powers at 1 dot. 65 isnt all that much really.

[Wargear]

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

Wargear, the idea is that all of the participants should have a real say. Nova proposed the idea and she is more than welcome to type things up but this is the internet for god sake and a gaming forum. Its like the only place a true democracy can even exist practically. if the majority of participants want it to be a certain way why should they be naysayed by a vocal minority who have their own agendas?

Like I said, the other day in Chat even Chosen was trying to get Nova to see that she could only lead if we elected her to, and that she should allow the community of participants to shape things not just foolow what she thinks is the right way.

I'm actually going to address Overload's point over WR's, because I think the rhetorical posturing there is a bit thick even for my tolerances.

Nova isn't running for office. She isn't trying to have herself made Queen of the Whole Board or something equally absurd. Hell, I'm fairly certain she's not even all that interested in a formal leadership position once this thing gets off the ground if she can avoid it (if for no other reason than that patience with silliness is not on her list of virtues). What she's doing is much simpler, and a little bolder.

She has an idea. A concept for how a sub-forum on the board might work to let people like her, people like me, people like all the ones who've voiced support for her in this and other threads, tell the stories they want to tell in the way they want to tell them. It's not for everyone, and it's not goin to please everybody. But it's going to please a lot of people who feel underserved right now. That number does not need to be any sort of majority of anything, because it's a big site. There's lots of other components to play it. It just has to be a big enough number to support and run this sub-forum.

I'll say it again: the essence of this isn't a power grab, or a consensus between backroom players, or a conspiracy. It's an idea. And that idea should be allowed to go forward, with reasonable debate to allow Nova or the people she's putting together to run it according to that idea to make modifications they think people will enjoy, and either succeed or fail as an experiment without trying to hammer it out into something that a Committee of the Whole conducted by every member of the board loves. Because that's never, ever going to get off the ground.

This isn't a democracy. It's not a totalitarian state, either. It's a project being run by some people, for the enjoyment of others, that happens to be occuring on this board where people are welcome to jump in if they like what they see.

So no, Overload, I don't think your calls for a mass vote are warranted. I think they rest from the faulty starting assumption that this is about pleasing or not pleasing the whole community. It isn't. It's about pleasing the people who find the idea attractive, assuming there are enough of us to make a good run of it. If you wanted a petition, with a minimum number of signatures (say, 10 or 25), that'd be more sensible. A show of hands of people who think this is cool and exciting. But a vote?

We aren't a government here. And we shouldn't be acting as though we are.

[The White Rat]

Overload,

Give it up. She has the power, we have little. Somehow she was able to convince Chosen that she could make her own forum, where she has veto power. Maybe the majority did want 60. She decided that she didn't want it. Kvetching about it is not going to change her mind. People with that kind of power, and supporters to back them up, get what they want. Besides, she has wanted this for a long time.

Go to the 2010 Forums, or the 2018 forums. I'll be there. Besides, we still have 'The Long March' to focus on. It is time to stop wasting your energy. You efforts are better served, (and appreciated) elsewhere.

[The White Rat]

Originally Posted By: Wargear

I'm actually going to address Overload's point over WR's, because I think the rhetorical posturing there is a bit thick even for my tolerances.

Go over your head did it?

[Nova OOC]

Originally Posted By: The White Rat

Originally Posted By: Wargear

I'm actually going to address Overload's point over WR's, because I think the rhetorical posturing there is a bit thick even for my tolerances.

Go over your head did it?

I don't think anyone would dispute your knack for impenetrable rhetoric and posturing.

Take it as a compliment.

[Ashnod]

Originally Posted By: *Overload*

Let me say it yet AGAIN. It seemed like the majority vote was for 60, and it seemed that NOva ignored that.

My "agenda" was to see that mine and others preferences were not steamrolled. When merely asking for a true vote made me a target I started fighting back. But you know that already..you compiled all mine and novas pertinent quotes.

Also I made it clear I wanted to start with higher powered characters. As did several others. My reason was the same as Fox's: we rarely get to play in high powered games. When I started in Baalt I had 65 NPs. They dont go far. I had one mega Att at 5, a couple more at 1 and a few powers at 1 dot. 65 isnt all that much really.

So it is your contention that the will of the majority (if there is one, and I don't believe there is), whatever it may be, supercedes that of developer of the idea and whomever supports it? Furthermore, that if the developer moves forward without submitting to the will of the majority, that this is persecution?

Soliciting the opinions of the forums to gain a better understanding of what environment to develop does not obligate the developer to change the project based on that solicitation. It's intriguing that you are demanding that it be so, or that it was implied to be so from the onset.

As Wargear has said, this is not a democracy nor is it a government. Consistent pleas to portray it as such, and the absence of it as persecution, are not helping to sway opinion.

At this point, whom are you trying to convert?

[Courier]

Quote:

...It seemed like the majority vote was for 60...

That wasn't my impression.

[Warren Verona]

I quit caring about ten minutes ago.

[The White Rat]

Quote:

I don't think anyone would dispute your knack for impenetrable rhetoric and posturing.

Nothing is impenetrable. It just takes will, knowlege, and perspicacity.

[Jordan]

Add Desire to that list WR. Some may not have the desire penetrate your rhetoric.

No offence meant...just sayin' is all.