Aberrant: Infinite Earth - Cosmos Nova OOC

[z-Coyote-Mad Scientist]

When you penalize them this much, if feels like you don't want them in the game. If that's people's honest reactions, I ask for an honest vote. If you don't want PC Refugees, just say so, like Kei did. If you do allow them, then let them have all the benefits of making a CN PC. It's really frustrating to try to come up with interesting concepts, only to have them crimped so hard. I know I don't care about dots, but this is getting extreme. Even I'm having trouble with the level of penalization on Refugee PCs now.

[Justin OOC]

I do not wish to see them as powerful as the native PC's. if it's a matter of allowing them to be every bit as powerful or not allowing them, I will vote no to them at all.

[z-Coyote-Mad Scientist]

As a breakdown on yays or nays:

Coyote: yes

Umiwashi: no

Fox: yes

Long: no (assuming PCs are as powerful as non-Refugees)

[Doctor Varroxxian]

I have to read up on the issue, and will have a vote in the next couple of days.

From what I have skimmed though, if you were to choose a PC Refuge they would by definition have to be from IE and not CN. Thus they would be generated like an IE character ... and recall that it is the physics of the CN dimension set that then limits what features and powers of an IE character works.

It isn't really a matter of penalizing a PC generated as a refuge ... they are generated exactly like any other non-CN IE character. Refuge X erupts or is born outside the CN dimensions ... they are what they are, and then come into another world where physics itself is different. Or so my initial thoughts go.

Likewsie, if an experienced IE PC decides to travel to CN their quantum beyond 6, high level powers beyond 5 AND CUSTOM STUFF THAT DOESN'T FLY IN CN just aren't accesible. Not only do those tricks not work, they don't exist in the CN reality. Said experienced PC leaves the CN realms and returns to normal IE space and they are in a normal universe once again. So again, its not the character ... its the difference in dimensions.

[z-Coyote-Mad Scientist]

With no offense to you Varro, that is not going to work. CN is its own game. It stands alone from IE. If we're allowing people to bring IE PCs into CN, then that invalidates the concept that CN stands alone. The PCs are being made for CN, not for IE in general. You can't have it both ways - either they're CN PCs or they're IE PCs, and they all the benefits of one or another.

As a note, IE PCs are far less constrained than CN PCs. Look at The Professor and Chris. CN was built expressly to get away from some of the insane power levels that are out there. So if IE PCs are allowed in CN, they should be completely allowed without the restraints the CN PCs. And since no one wants that, said as someone who is looking to build a Refugee, if this is the stance you want to take, just vote no.

[SeaEagle]

Funny you mentioned that. I and Chris have been operating under the assumption that novas generated outside of the CN universe cannot travel to the CN universe.

Also... The Professor and Chris... we built them for fun... we know sure as heck not to bring them anywhere close to CN.

But there is something by the statement you just made that rattles in my head.

"CN is its own game. It stands alone from IE." Here is where I start to get a little nit-picky. I mean... I gotta nerd-out over something... It is entirely possible that Kei could go to let's say... Brittania. And make it back home. CN is in every bit a part of the IE continuum as any other universe.

On the other hand, characters from outside the CN universe continuity cannot enter. So for instance, The Professor cannot enter CE because of some sort of "Quantum Wall" that separates CN from other universes. In fact I sort of established how that could work, with some sort of "pocket" that the universe resides in that can only be accessed in one direction. And due to the nature of CN's gate, it only functions to novas attuned to that gate and any outside novas cannot traverse to it.

Doesn't matter how powerful Chris is... he just can't break those cuffs.

But in all seriousness, in a way CN stands alone, but CN novas can visit the rest of the IE continuum and return home after the experience.

​Also... I had my version of a chill pill... I'm really mellowed out. After I wake up from sleeping this morning, I guess my sabbatical is over.

[z-Coyote-Mad Scientist]

CN novas aren't visiting the rest of the continuum. If they can come and go while no one else can, then that just breaks my head. Can we please just say that CN is a stand-alone, that the continuum of CN is a stand-alone and please just leave it at that? There's no reason to overthink this at all.

The question at hand is very fucking simple: can people make PC Refugees or not? If not, then we're done. If so, they are CN PCs, regardless of whether they are Refugees or natives.

[SeaEagle]

Fair enough.

Still voting no on this.

[Doctor Varroxxian]

OK, if I am going to be forced into answering a question ... my response is no.

...

On this topic of some weird quantum wall existing ... I have never been privy to such a concept. Carv is right, if the PCs can come and go and other Novas can't ... then that also just doesn't fit in my head.

If we say its a stand alone relative to main IE thats fine with me ... but I must point out that the world building right from early OOC posts has positioned the native Novas with a home turf advantage, and the refugees were normal Novas from normal realities. Or so I though.

[Telluris]

The Refugees are from an alternate reality. That alternate reality is part of the same subset of IE that the main CN world inhabits, therefore certain rules should be held in common:

• (Yay! Bullet points!)
  
• The Refugee's home-reality, like the CN main world, is not subject to any other cross-dimensional visitation. It and CN-world are a closed-circuit.
  
• The quantum levels of CN-world are indicative of the levels of quantum the refugees brought through with them.
  
• The best and most powerful among the Refugee's (other than any Deus Ex Machina NPCs moderators feel like throwing in) should therefore be comparable with the CN-world homegrown heroes.
  

There is no real reason for limiting the power of Refugee PCs compared to Hometown PCs other than some obscure punitive motivations. I know Carver's already said it, but I'm saying it too, dammit. Don't try to justify the unjustifiable with waffling and rambling. Either say "Yes, you can play a Refugee" or "No you can't."

For the record, I vote "Yes".

[Doctor Varroxxian]

Frankly, this suddenly became some game other than the one I helped form.

[SeaEagle]

I'm not thinking this is going to work out anymore... I'm out.

[Telluris]

It's really not that complicated or game-breaking as long as one rule is followed:

A Refugee can't break the limits imposed on CN-world PCs.

This means no Elevated Terats, no custom powers, no Q6 at start, etc, etc. The Refugee PC was not drinking-buddies with Pax or Mal, they weren't part of Proteus or Aeon, they don't know the formula for the sterility virus, they don't make eufiber... Basically, if you want your Refugee to possess any trait or knowledge that would (not 'could possibly') make CN like mainstream Aberrant, then the answer should be "No".

A Refugee should be little different mechanically than a Hometown boy or girl, Teras aside. And that's already covered above.

Edit:

Umi and Varro, there is seriously nothing to get worked up about. Raising your hand to your brow and bemoaning the fate of your poor despoiled virgin daughter just because there's no adequate reason against playing a character with a certain background is not helpful or positive.

[z019]

I'm not looking to break people's fun in the game or drive other players, especially already established players, from the game.

I respectfully remove my request and will not be looking to bring a character in.

Umiwashi, please do not leave the game over this; Varro, perhaps this discussion should turn to what the expectations/desires are for the game.

At this point I would suggest that as contentious as a Refugee PC would be, that they not be allowed. I have no vote to cast, but there is my non-involved opinion. Thank you for considering the matter.

[SeaEagle]

The damage has been done. I am extremely angry at how something I spent a lot of creative effort on is going to be completely smashed because of this. Thing is I really don't want to play anymore. The whole concept of open world sucks and I hate it.

[Doctor Varroxxian]

Edit:

Umi and Varro, there is seriously nothing to get worked up about. Raising your hand to your brow and bemoaning the fate of your poor despoiled virgin daughter just because there's no adequate reason against playing a character with a certain background is not helpful or positive.

Hey, don't sweat it. You have successfully stifled conversation and badgered people with other points of view into not opposing you.

Congratz. You win.

Edit - for the record, I meant what I said literally. Coming in today and reading this thread, finding out that what had been done in early stages of world building is now being altered because a few people who come after don't like it ... this irks me.

Then we are told to stop talking about an issue - that it shouldn't be discussed because it is 'waffling' ... this really irks me. Basically, I don't see collaboration with people who feel they can just dictate what will be as being very fruitful.

That is my honest opinion. Having it characterized as it has been above ... forget it. I don't need that.

[Mary Masters]

Just never mind them. We'll find something else to do.

[Telluris]

Hey, don't sweat it. You have successfully stifled conversation and badgered people with other points of view into not opposing you.

Congratz. You win.

Seriously? All I pointed out was that there was a lot of fuss and ado about bugger-all. Nobody has actually presented an adequate reason for why Refugee PCs shouldn't be allowed within the same framework as other PCs.

Nice attempt on the passive-aggressive point-scoring, though. Have a cookie.

[Telluris]

Edit - for the record, I meant what I said literally. Coming in today and reading this thread, finding out that what had been done in early stages of world building is now being altered because a few people who come after don't like it ... this irks me.

Then we are told to stop talking about an issue - that it shouldn't be discussed because it is 'waffling' ... this really irks me. Basically, I don't see collaboration with people who feel they can just dictate what will be as being very fruitful.

That is my honest opinion. Having it characterized as it has been above ... forget it. I don't need that.

People weren't "talking about the issue". They were trying to justify punishing a type of PC when really all they needed to say was "I vote against Refugee characters. The setting is supposed to be about the hometown boys and gals". Don't let someone play a character then say "Oh, but you suffer for it".

[Doctor Varroxxian]

Don't try to justify the unjustifiable with waffling and rambling. Either say "Yes, you can play a Refugee" or "No you can't."

For the record, I vote "Yes".

Really, that seems like trying to stifle conversation to me. Telling people to say either one thing or the other and not talk about it is far from point anything out.

Also for the record I am not quitting, but this exchange shakes my confidence in the ability of the open game world concept to work.

And me bringing up what the setting was created for, what one of the original world building concepts is ... or was perhaps ... is perfectly valid. Then again, maybe its not what you want to hear because it doesn't agree with your idea.

[Doctor Varroxxian]

Don't let someone play a character then say "Oh, but you suffer for it".

As to this part. Recall my vote was no.

So, what I thought that meant was that I didn't think that refugees should be allowed as PCs.

In my original comment on the topic, I noted what had been discussed long before - to the best of my knowledge the Refugees were not from another CN universe, but from an IE one. I do not see anything punitive or about suffering in the scenario I proposed ... those PCs would be from IE and would even have some inherent advantages because they fall under that pre-existing rules set.

If the scenario I originally described is no longer the case because of decisions made in my absence, so be it ... but that goes back to my comment about the world suddenly not being the one I helped to form.

I just don't like being told to shut up and pick yes or no on a question I have not had the opportunity to discuss.

[Telluris]

Frankly, this suddenly became some game other than the one I helped form.

To explain my POV, this statement of yours came across as unqualified. You didn't state how it had become different, simply that it had. And when immediately followed by Umiwashi's unique brand of 'taking mah ball with meh' drama posts, I may have mistaken your intended message as something similar. I don't bear you any particular animosity, and my de-virginising comment was made mostly in jest. I apologise for giving you offense.

You didn't bring up one of the world-building concepts that I saw, to be fair. You just said "things are changing".

Now...

The reason I was trying to end the ceaseless waffling (and yes, it was waffling) was because people were performing the most amazing conversational gymnastics to try and justify something which is basically UN-justifiable. This particular debate should boil down to "Refugee characters, yes or no" not "Refugee characters, yes, no, or yes but nerfed."

The situation was being read as more complicated than it needed to be. As I stated above, as long as certain guidelines are followed that don't give the inherent advantages to the Refugees, then there should be no balance problem.

[Doctor Varroxxian]

Fair enough.

If the simple refugees allowed as PCs? yes-or-no vote ends up going in the no direction ....

... I am still open for some sort of discussion on alternate ways to tempering powerful refugees in the setting. While I tend to agree that a seriously nerfed PC is going to be no fun to play, and in a world where one can't go to mainline IE this counts doubly ... but maybe there are other ways.

Maybe limiting the number of PC Refugees to a very low number ... like two or something. It would have to be a low number relative to the number of PCs ... thus representative of a low number overall.

[Telluris]

I'd be happy for PC Refugees to be rare, and I think Terats should be doubly so.

[Mr Fox]

Grrr.... I hate these blow ups.

Here's my take on it.

Refugees - mechanically they are exactly the same as native PC in terms of creation rules, anything else would be unfair. The caveat to that is that certain backgrounds would be either limited or need to be justified.

• Backing - limited to 3 at the start of the game, could raise higher in game due to character choices and actions. Governments just don't trust the refugees. This was part of the concept of the game world as we discussed it during it's creation.
  
• Resources, Allies, Followers, etc, can start with 5 just like a native, but would need to be justified. In otherwords, you'd need to explain 'why' your PC has gained those backgrounds in the 5 short years since arriving in this reality.
  

CN isn't disconnected from the rest of the multiverse in any way. If we want to consider doing this we can, but that would require discussion and collaboration from all the participants.

There is no justification needed for 'why' a character can't travel to or from CN. It is an IE Game rule that no outside novas can jump in on a story unless those in the story choose to allow them in the game. The universe is connected to all the others and theoretically people could travel back and forth. Rulewise however, it is up to the story to decide if travel is allowed.

If you are making a character to participate in CN then it is made by the CN rules because the players who are in the story chose to have the rules different from the overall IE universe and want limits. That's fine. I specifically set up IE to be able to accommodate any possible story and part of that is that the rules of a particular story override IE rules as the storyteller/players see fit.

Honestly, you guys are making a big deal over nothing.

From a player perspective - I don't see a problem with refugee novas, however, to me the point of CN is to experience the world of CN not to rehash canon plots other than as a plot devices within the setting. Ie, a terat refugee decides to attack governments on CN in order to strike first and so needs to be put down. Thus leading to a story within the game for people to deal with. If someone wants to play a terat then that's fine. I/we per our discussions just don't want CN to be a rehash of the same old canon storyline.

I think that we should go with the same rule that was established for power choices. Majority +1. So for refugee PCs we'd need majority +1 to make that happen.

I'd like everyone to take a few deep breaths and try to come back and lets continue the story. We are off to a really good start, let's not let it fall apart now.

[SeaEagle]

Okay. I had some sleep. More than enough time to think. I'll give this one more try. In a way I'm very attached to the game.

Let's just put this behind us. Last night was a very vicious night and I think some of us (myself included) took this very personal.

Let's just try to move forward, okay?

[SeaEagle]

Speaking of moving forward, do we need to have statted characters for Nights? I'm working on a character as my international alt and I want to bring her in for interaction while I work on her. Since I'm tied up with the SR stuff it'll be a few days before she's complete. I won't bang people over the head with unstatted powers or anything during this period. (In other words, Director Nakamura is going to be with her telling her not to be using her powers willy-nilly during the party).

I do want a Japanese character, and she'll work fine.

[Sailor OOC]

And if you are wondering who the character is...

Sorry, I may have dropped out of CoQF but I like her... and I'm going to change her up a bit too. She will be a Papermaster in power and a Medic by training.

[Mr Fox]

I still have question marks on my sheet where I haven't decided certain things, so I don't have a problem with it. I don't think we were planning to have any combat or dice rolling conflict in that fic.

[Doctor Varroxxian]

Now that I have a couple days breathing room I will be finishing up Darklighter.

... and posting too.

[Dan Hawkins]

I wasn't planning on dice no, it s a social thread, not a combat/plot one

[Doctor Varroxxian]

Before we go too much farther though, basic elements of the CN setting have to be set in stone. AGAIN ... but permanently this time.

I am ready to deal with this potential setting change coming up, but it still bugs the heck out of me. Really, really cheeses me off that something huge we had decided during world building just gets overturned. Or a whole slew of things, as it was looking yesterday. However, the vote coming up is the vote coming up and I will honor it.

That said, If the core concepts of the CN world are just going to be play-dough subject to change when someone has a whim and makes enough noise OOC for a vote ... honestly, the experiment will have a short run for me.

The whole point of this exercise was to do a new world, not to recreate more of the same. We already have great canon (or close to canon) games like QF. For the new people here, for goodness sake ... let this not be a re-hash of other games.

[z019]

That said, If the core concepts of the CN world are just going to be play-dough subject to change when someone has a whim and makes enough noise OOC for a vote ... honestly, the experiment will have a short run for me.

Varro - you have no idea of the character concept I had save for "refugee". I asked if the character type was allowed in play, that was all. This statement reads incredibly rude and hostile to me. All I did was ask a question because I had what I thought was a good character idea to come into play in this game with. Sorry for saying anything in your sandbox. I'll keep my whims and noise far away from it from now on.

[Sailor OOC]

Varro: nothing has been approved, and probably won't be. There's no majority +1. We are staying the course. Let's just disarm and try to actually have some fun again?

[Doctor Varroxxian]

Varro - you have no idea of the character concept I had save for "refugee". I asked if the character type was allowed in play, that was all. This statement reads incredibly rude and hostile to me. All I did was ask a question because I had what I thought was a good character idea to come into play in this game with. Sorry for saying anything in your sandbox. I'll keep my whims and noise far away from it from now on.

Unfortunate you are angry. However the specifics of your charachter are unrelated to what I said. I am sure it is a fine charachter. .. And the things I heard in chat about the concept were very encouraging.

What I am talking about are core concepts changing. Not only refugees or not...more all the other things that were suddenly deemed as worthless. People coming in and just changing what others had worked on like it was all so much nothing. Just to clarify that is also not directed at you or anyone in particular. It did happen however...and it doesn't sit well.

As I said earlier I cast my vote on the refugee issue and will abide by it. That issue is already over for me.

The other thing is that its a shared sandbox. Not mine and not yours. Even you just assuming I was refering to you and then getting angry doesn't bode well for sharing.

If you feel that you have to keep away from the sandbox because of my last post...again unfortunate. It is entirely up to you though.

[Mr Fox]

So what do you feel is being changed? I'm not aware of any changes in the concept of the game. This world is the same today as it was last week as far as I know. There will or can be a vote on allowing refugees as PCs, but unless it's majority +1 then it won't happen.

You seem to be angry and I am not sure why.

[Doctor Varroxxian]

I am not angry, my words have been calm. I have expressed that I was deeply concerned, irked, cheesed off - but that feeling was mostly prior to casting my vote - at the ease that core concepts have come very close to changing, about the process.

Having solid foundations to write with, it would be nice. Maybe I am just not used to this sort of game.

[Mr Fox]

The foundation is set. Changes can always be made with a majority +1 vote, but I don't see changes that will alter the setting itself being likely. Allowing refugee PCs, if we choose to do that wouldn't change what we've decided on already, unless we specifically voted to do so, and that's really not likely.

No changes to the setting have been made at this point, nor are we voting on making any unless I've missed something. (except to allow refugee PCs and that doesn't change the setting at all even if the vote passes)

[Telluris]

A small matter of world-history and character involvement in same:

The tsunami in Japan. In our world, it caused a lot of damage and loss of life, but our world doesn't have novas. I'm respectfully submitting that Telluris (and other PCs who wish) were part of the efforts to alleviate that crisis, first by airlifting people from the coastal towns, then by erecting sea-walls and dykes to channel the flooding mostly harmlessly. The Fukushima meltdown happened, but the reactor core could have been hoisted out by novas, or had it's radiation drained by an absorber, etc, etc.

Thoughts?

[Sailor OOC]

I second this. Novas had been around for 4 years by this point, allowing a good number to potentially be capable of reducing the final toll. I approve this plot point and if this turns out to be a story in of itself... this could be a uniting factor for CN players. Potentially a "Event" we could have fictions around.

Hell we've been nibbling around the edge of this as a event... time at least in CN to be heroes.

One note... Even though we have established that Telluris, Kei, and Kamiko were on the scene, there is potential for everyone to be there. Either helping in a different stricken town or what not. I can imagine the science club taking care of the reactor situation, and everyone else handling various phases of the disaster/recovery process.

This has potential... it's a big freakin' hook we can all hang our hats on.