Aberrant RPG - Ethics and the Teragen

[Sphere]

Happy New Year everyone. Hope you had a good holiday. ::biggrin

Thought I'd kick 2005 off with a subject that I hope will spark off an old-school message board debate about everyone's favourite post-humans, the Teragen.

So here are a couple of points that struck me about Terat behaviour. I realise that they may be a little generalised for the loose coalition of radicals, fanatics and philosophers that constitute the Teragen, but we have to start somewhere. ::wink

The Teragen can be seen, from a certain point of view, as an extremely hypocritical organisation. On the one hand they argue that Nova-kind is free to do anything they choose to with their powers. But on the other they outright condemn those Novas who freely choose to live within the confines of the baseline society that raised them.

The core belief structure of Teras preaches a separatist philosophy. It says that Novas are not bound by baseline laws nor should they allow themselves to be "used" by baseline society as "slaves" (ie T2M, Elites, etc). So isn't it going against their philosophy to have intimate associations with baselines (Orzaiz) or to engage in the acquisition of baseline wealth (Mathmatician, the Pandemonium)? Doesn't the very act of using money to buy stuff mean you are still acting within baseline society?

Are the Terats who pander to the human media truely members of the One Race or are they no better than the Church of Astaroth?

Many members of the Teragen accuse human governments of manipulating and using Novas to make their own lives easier. But they are quite happy to manipulate, ensnare, and otherwise tamper with humans in order to make their own lives easier. Are the Teragen sitting in a glass house with a big old bag of stones?

[Bahamut810]

That really depends.

The Teregen philosophy revolves around personal responsability. Basically what Divis Mal was trying to say (in my eyes at least) was that Nova's need to get their act together as a whole, and get things done for themselves.

Its interesting that you bring up the good Count, because in the Teregen book he is congratulated (by Mal himself) on being on the 'right path' of the philosophy. It comes down to him taking responsability for himself and for his race. He is an excellent spoksman for the Teregen and Nova's as a whole, not because he speaks for the other Teregen but becasue he tries to get baselines to realise that Nova's are different.

What Im really suprised about is that the Teregen hasent taken it upon itself to take the next step and create a new country. They have taken a few half steps with their hideouts, but they still stay hidden. They are still binding themselves to the laws of their respective countries as well, wether they are breaking the law or abiding by it. (There are other threads about this we have had though)

Thats something that a lot of people dont take into account in Aberrant (I think). That while people think they are acting within the Teregen philosophy bt killing people who are legally doing things (like the Mayor in Miami) they are actually accepting human law. "Yea I murdered him, but he deserved it!" only means that you accept that what you did was agenst the (baseline) law, and accept that as the law. Im not sure what an alternative to that would be though. Mabey im talkin outta my arse...but it sounds about right.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Well even in the core book when the big G killed Rupert, Count Orzaiz made it clear it's not what he'd have done but sticks to the terragens philosophy that it was within Geryon's rights as a Nova to do so, even if he did sugarcoat it by saying the world is better off with one less biggot like the mayor.

[Alex Green]

What Im really suprised about is that the Teregen hasent taken it upon itself to take the next step and create a new country.

They can't. Making their own country would involve building something, i.e. making laws and living with them. This would be a disaster.

1) It's easy to promise everything to everyone as a revolutionary movement. The reality is after the revolution everyone isn't going to be rich, hansome, and worshiped. Some, or even most, of the revolutionaries will even be worse off.

2) Members of the Teragen would then be unable to live as they pleased.

3) The Teragen movement is pretty bankrupt of ideas on how to live life after you remove the "baselines are opposing us" concept. Basically the only way I see that they have to settle disputes is "might makes right". Doing this is going to be a PR disaster.

4) Most of the Teragen depends on baselines for things like food, money, and jobs. Doing without baselines means setting up their own economy, and that is a problem in itself (not everyone will be rich).

5) The shinning example in theory will have been shown to have very ugly practices in practice. In Nova country, people will still have disputes, and they will still have fights. Petty office pollitics will still happen. The bulk of the novas on the island will still have to be fed. Etc.

Communism is probably a good example. The theory works better than the actual practice. Put a 100 novas on the island and you might get Utopia. But more likely you will end up with many of the same sorts of problems that the Teragen claims are purely the fault of baselines.

[Sphere]

Another problem with the Terats trying to found a country is it's location. There are not many hospitable parts of the world which are not under the control of and inhabited by baselines. In order to establish a new country the Teragen would have to effectively declare war on an existing one. Which would result in the UN, Project Utopia/Proteus, and the Directive (probably the Aberrants too) intervening to throw them out. Not to mention DeVries elites hired by the invaded country.

I suppose it's the same reason that the Primacy and the Harvesters aren't unleashing horrible bioweapons on populated areas on a regular basis. The Teragen just doesn't have the numbers to withstand the kind of conflict occupying a country would spark.

Not unless Mal backed them up, I suppose. But even then it's possible the combined action of the world's few Q6 Novas could bring him down if they were properly motivated. I can just see Proteus framing the Terats for an eco-terrorist strike on the teraforming operation in Niger just to bring a heavy hitter like Antaeus into the mix.

Regarding Orzaiz.

He's always been one of my favourite Terat NPCs. But I can see him being one of the people who get it in the neck during the Night of Long Knives. Even with Mal's blessing at the "last supper", I get the feeling a lot of the more radical elements see him as too liberal. His reluctance to enter chrysalis weighs against him, although I see it more as him not wanting to rush headlong into it rather than him being scared of losing his humanity.

[Bahamut810]

re Teregen Philosopthy not supportive of laws:

I dont think so. Mal only said that Nova's arent subject to baseline laws. And that they need to find their own way. Some people took that as 'to each their own' but I think it could also be used as a kickstart for a constitution for Nova-kind.

If nothing else, they could get up with the Deadalius Leauge and make a moon-base to live on. Im not sure how they would make cash (possible selling technology). Im sure all thoes mega-smart nova's could figure out what to do.

[Alex Green]

re Teregen Philosopthy not supportive of laws:

I dont think so.  Mal only said that Nova's arent subject to baseline laws.  And that they need to find their own way.  Some people took that as 'to each their own' but I think it could also be used as a kickstart for a constitution for Nova-kind.

Any possible "constitution" or "laws for novas by novas" would find terats on the other side of the law. Even from something as basic as "don't kill novas for fun".

I find it impossible to imagine terats trying to enforce laws on fellow terats.

[Nullifier]

See, I think when you talk about Mal's vision for the Teragen, and their eventual evolution into a real society of novas, you should try, for a moment, to transcend your limited, human view of a social contract, and try to think of it more in terms of social evolution. Humans, as a species, have pretty much stalled in our social evolution. In 5000 years, we've barely moved an inch up the ladder of social evolution. Our governments are still oligarchies, we still live in police states, and we still fight wars over resources, ideologies, and egos. We rape, murder, torture, steal, and squabble like children. It doesn't have to be like this. We can evolve. We can teach our children to understand and have compassion for others. We can learn to share instead of take, or profit. It's possible. Anyhow, my point is that if we, as mere humans are capable of social evolution, which we are, novas should be even more able. Why do you think Mal says that Orzaiz and Scripture are the only ones with even a modicum of understanding? They're the only ones who focus their energies on evolving socially instead of merely physically and mentally. Why do you think Mal likes Narcosis so much? Similar situation, although her lack of compassion for others excludes her from the same category as Orzaiz and Scripture.

Anyhow, the point is that Alex is right, any nova state with it citizens stuck at the baseline level of social evolution is doomed to failure. However, a socially evolved nova state is certainly possible. ::bigsmile ::thumbsup

[Alex Green]

Humans, as a species, have pretty much stalled in our social evolution. In 5000 years, we've barely moved an inch up the ladder of social evolution. Our governments are still oligarchies, we still live in police states, and we still fight wars over resources, ideologies, and egos. We rape, murder, torture, steal, and squabble like children.

Untrue.

Over the last 5000 years we have moved from a tribal existence with tribal wars to a more organized society. There has been a massive move from an existence where everyone hunts for their living, to one where most people farm, to one where few people farm. Many new roles in society have been invented (policeman, king, etc). The idea that the people should have some say over what their leaders do has become pretty standard.

Over the last 5000 years there have been fairly large progress made in terms of religion, philosophy, etc.

In the last 300 years democracies have formed.

In the last 100 years we tried a grand (but failed) experiment in the form of communism.

Over the last 200 years the right to vote has been extended to pretty much everyone (women, other races, etc).

Is this true for the entire world? No, it isn’t. There are parts of the world where people live in caves, exactly like they did 5000 years ago. There are parts of the world which are less backward than that, but still aren’t what we like to think of as modern societies. But those other areas are (mostly) envious of us and are trying to become like us.

We have made a LOT of process... and the Teragen wants to throw it all away. ::tongue ::rolleyes ::cool

[Bahamut810]

I disagree Alex.

Its a new face on an old consept. Sure we have a different way of doing things, but we are still all clans at different levels. We just give them different names...cliques, towns, states, countries, religions, race...they are all different ways of differentiating between people.

Sure we may be more organised. Sure we may be able to talk to anyone in the world with little trouble...but we still seperate ourselves.

I cant remember the exact quote, but there is a quote that goes something like ...

"Me and my family agenst my village, Me and my village agenst my country, me and my country agenst the world."

That is very true at the core of everything people do.

[Nullifier]

Alex, I don't disagree with you that there's been 'progress'. Cosmetic, superficial, and picyune progress mostly to be sure, but 'progress' none the less. I'm not talking about progress, I'm talking about evolution. The progress we've made as a species in terms of our social relationships, and which you value so highly, is barely a drop in the bucket. It's us crawling an inch when we should be leaping 10ft. Social evolution isn't the slow, painful mutation of all the same old s**t into more organized versions of that s**t. Rather it's the leap out of the s**t onto dry ground. Don't kid yourself about us living in democracies. We live in oligarchies. 'Democratic' oligarchies to be sure, but oligarchies none-the-less. Don't lie to yourself that the meagre social progress we've made as a species is anything more that window-dressing, like passing a hick off as a lady at a party. The hick is still a hick, and the veneer of civilization is paper-thin. It is the same with us. Our savage heritage of violence, pain, fear, and hatred is always right there, just hidden away behind paper walls and pretty paint so that we may shield ourselves from the awful truth.

You're right to say Mal wants to throw that away. Replace our so-called progress with real evolution. Unfortunately, as Scripture points out, the novas are still stuck with the heritage of their human infancies. It is difficult to evolve out of that, to overcome the pain and fear, and to embrace instead of distrust and squabble. Mal's purpose behind bringing the Teragen together is not to get all of them to evolve socially, but to find the few who can, will, and do. Seperating the wheat from the chaff can come later. As a cook once told me, you have to break some eggs to make omlettes.::devilangel

[Alex Green]

On the one hand you say We rape, murder, torture, steal, and squabble like children. It doesn't have to be like this.

This implies you are against these sorts of things (that's a good thing).

The problem I see NO evidence that Mal is against these sorts of things. I don't even see any evidence that Mal will EVER be against these sorts of things.

Mal wants evolution. Everything else is irrelevent.

[Nullifier]

Really? Whom has Mal ever murdered? Whom has he raped, tortured, or stolen from? Mal leads by example. Certainly he does not restrain, does not stop others, but it is not the job of the socially evolved to police others. Merely to show the way, try to explain, give them the tools they need to evolve, and then let them do what they will. Mal understands that social evolution cannot be forced, only encouraged, and he also understands that only out of chaos can creativity, emergence, i.e. evolution occur. Mal makes it quite clear that evolution merely for its own sake is worthless. This is why he doesn't care that Orzaiz hasn't been through the chrysalis. Mal wants the novas to grow up, evolve socially, not physically. Next to that, yes, everything is irrelevant, but don't mistake his desire for social evolution for a desire for any evolution.

[Alex Green]

Mal makes it quite clear that evolution merely for its own sake is worthless.

No. He's made it clear that aberration for its own sake is worthless.

As for his view on evolution for it's own sake, he invented the Archetype of "Monster". Someone who desires people to not rape, murder, etc wouldn't invent, distribute, and encourage something that actively rewards people for raping, murdering, etc.

Further, the "Night of long knives" makes it clear Mal is willing to murder, even his own followers, simply as a matter of convinence.

Mal wants the novas to grow up, evolve socially, not physically.

AB:Teragen makes it clear he wants them to evolve physically, and he really doesn't care what the social structure looks like as long as he is on top.

Chysalis is about physical evolution at the expense of your humanity. That's why your social rolls keep getting more and more negatives, even apart from the other problems aberrations inflict on it's adherants.

[phoenix]

Alex, I think I agree with almost all of what you've said, except for the idea that it's somehow a point against Mal.

The problem I see NO evidence that Mal is against these sorts of things. I don't even see any evidence that Mal will EVER be against these sorts of things.

Mal wants evolution. Everything else is irrelevant.

That's a little like saying that about Rosalind Franklin, except with "DNA crystallography" instead of "evolution". Evolution is the goal that Mal has chosen to work for. True, he could use his power to make a huge difference in the world, but he hasn't really made a negative influence in any noticable way. Admittedly, heinous deeds have been committed under his standard, but the people that did those things probably would have done them anyway - he certainly didn't tell them to. QED the many sane, peaceful Terats that exist, Orzaiz and the Casablancas, for example. And the fact that he chooses not to make a difference, though annoying, isn't really a crime, any more than it's a crime not to join the Peace Corps once you turn 18. The only difference is the scale.

As for his view on evolution for it's own sake, he invented the Archetype of "Monster". Someone who desires people to not rape, murder, etc wouldn't invent, distribute, and encourage something that actively rewards people for raping, murdering, etc.

Not invented - discovered. It's a physical fact of novahood that, if your Archetype is Monster, you have to challenge your human sense of morality in order to evolve. Yeah, it's a bitch for the rest of us, but why shoot the messenger? The monsters, maybe.

Further, the "Night of long knives" makes it perfectly clear Mal is perfectly willing to murder, even his own followers, simply as a matter of convinence.

Bear in mind that the Night(s) Of Long Knives suggested in the Teragen book give a lot of leeway to individual STs. He doesn't have to be that savage.

To be honest, I don't really see much credibility in arguing against the Terats as a united group at all - they really have very little in common. In fact, Divis Mal himself might be completely different between various games that he's in, so it's deliberately hard to even make a solid case for or against him. White Wolf wants him to be ambiguous so the STs will have room to improvise.

[Nullifier]

First, there's no indication that he invented the monster archetype. In fact, the archetype he himself embodies and follows is that of Marvel. Second, allowing people to commit acts of violence and commiting them oneself are very different things. He neither encourages nor commits any of these acts. Even the Night of Long Knives involves his followers cutting each other to bits. Mal always stays above the fray. Again, I ask you, whom has Mal murdered, raped, tortured, or so much as hurt in anything other than a purely self-defensive capacity? In fact, the only fight I can find him getting in is the one with Pax, and he doesn't even kill the egotistical pr*ck when he has the chance. He holds back, deliberately, and only fights back when it becomes clear that Pax won't stop until he's beaten. Mal leads by example, it's just that most of the Teragen are too blinded by their own light to see it. Mal cares about evolution, true, but real evolution, not just of the physical kind.

As for the chrysalis, it's merely a way to channel and control physical evolution that's already taking place, in order to keep the person undergoing that evolution sane and in control. The whole point is that you're losing your humanity anyhow, but it's better to control the process than to let it control and destroy you. Again, Mal doesn't care if his followers undergo the chrysalis or not. It's there if they need or want it, but it's certainly not a requirement or even something he encourages.

[Alex Green]

Evolution is the goal that Mal has chosen to work for.

Very True.

he could use his power to make a huge difference in the world, but he hasn't really made a negative influence in any noticeable way.

He’s running around using his Q8 powers and massive Mega-Social stats to encourage novas to abandon their humanity. That’s pretty negative right there. The process of abandoning their humanity will give them both massive aberrations and social negatives which will isolate them from humanity. For many of his adherents, the very process of abandoning their humanity will involve murder, rape, etc (i.e. the path of the monster).

Admittedly, heinous deeds have been committed under his standard, but the people that did those things probably would have done them anyway - he certainly didn't tell them to.

By that logic Hitler didn’t have an impact on the Nazi movement. Mal’s the standard barer. If what he TRUELY wants is people to not rape/murder, then when people start to do so in his name, you would think he’d say or do something, if not in public in private. Not only does he not tell them to stop, he actively encourages them (pages 81-2, AB:Teragen).

And the fact that he chooses not to make a difference, though annoying, isn't really a crime, any more than it's a crime not to join the Peace Corps once you turn 18.  The only difference is the scale.

No. There is a big difference between not joining the peace core, and founding a racist, law-breaking, murderous, hate group populated by demi-gods. If he were a baseline it would be the equivalent of starting your own skin head movement.

Not invented - discovered. It's a physical fact of novahood that, if your Archetype is Monster, you have to challenge your human sense of morality in order to evolve. Yeah, it's a bitch for the rest of us, but why shoot the messenger? The monsters, maybe.

Invented/discovered, educated his followers on exactly how to do it, etc. Re-read AB:Teragen page 121, the box. In order to be a “Monster” you have to have had a teacher. Makes me wonder if there were any other, more peaceful archetypes that got edited out because they didn’t lose their humanity fast enough.

First, there's no indication that he invented the monster archetype. In fact, the archetype he himself embodies and follows is that of Marvel.

If he didn’t then who did? I wouldn’t be at all shocked if he follows all three archetypes. Again, page 121 makes it clear that to become a Monster, you have to be trained by one.

Second, allowing people to commit acts of violence and commiting them oneself are very different things.

So he is more Hitler than Jeffery Dalmer. I don’t see the improvement.

He neither encourages nor commits any of these acts.

Page 81, Mal says “...we Terats must demonstrate to all, nova and baseline alike, the path our race must take – and we must start with Utopia. Primacy, Nova Vigilance, you both have my blessings to carry on. Be my terrible angles and deliver my wrath...”

Even the Night of Long Knives involves his followers cutting each other to bits. Mal always stays above the fray.

Yes and no. Much of it is “a ploy by Divis” (read Divis the Dictator on page 98). Divis doesn’t just see it coming and stand back. There are other references about Divis talking it over with Math-guy but I don’t have the page number.

Again, I ask you, whom has Mal murdered, raped, tortured, or so much as hurt...

I can’t say that he has. Other than the Secretary General, I can’t say that he will. On the other hand I don’t know of anyone that any political leader has personally killed, including such notables as Hitler and Stalin. It’s not their job.

Mal leads by example, it's just that most of the Teragen are too blinded by their own light to see it. Mal cares about evolution, true, but real evolution, not just of the physical kind.

...Again, Mal doesn't care if his followers undergo the chrysalis or not. It's there if they need or want it, but it's certainly not a requirement or even something he encourages.

Page 82, Mal says, “This is the essence of Teras: The strong must prevail, the wise must preside, and the enlightened must guide us onward.”

Page 86, “Teragen leadership is determined by... charisma, reputation, and progress down the path of Teras.” And for the definition of Teras you should read page 117. Chrysalis is a part of it, but the “path of Teras” is pretty clearly defined as that process/mental discipline by which Terats channel taint into Chrysalis.

[Sphere]

Again I ask you, whom has Mal murdered, raped, or tortured, or so much as hurt.

Forcible shutting down of Pax's quantum energies equates to rape. He had the guy beaten and restrained and then decided to go one step further and degrade and humiliate Pax in a way he knew would hurt him the most, denying him access to his powers.

Also, whilst the details are a little sketchy, we know Primoris worked for the Nazis in WW2. The very fact that Max and the Aeon Society confronted him over that indicates he was doing something decidely dodgy. Whether it was experimentation on willing subjects or death camp prisoners, it's pretty obvious he was trying to artificially "inspire" people. So doing could concievably have given the war to Nazis as a horde of ubermenschen joined the fray against the allies.

So, complicity with a government that advocated torture, genocide, and murder.

The Teragen book may advise leeway with the Night of Long Knives scenario. But the canon info at the end of the book states that Mal is at the "burning centre" of radical anti-baseline fevour as the Aberrant War progresses.

A lot of people seem to see Mal as some kind of enlightened pacifist who, having shown his people the way, retires to his temple to contemplate the universe.

Rubbish.

Mal is a coward and an emotional mess. For all of his power, he desperately wants to be part of something great. He'll be whatever the Teragen wants him to be, which is not the sign of someone who leads by example. If the Terats want a priest he'll be their priest. If they want a wrath-spewing god then he'll be that too.

Mal didn't invent Teragen philosphy by himself. It was only through meetings with Mathmatician, Fong, and Orzaiz that the philosophy evolved. Caroline Fong was the one who developed the concept of the Archetypes. Mal and Scripture brought Chrysalis to the table, but it's integration into the transhuman belief system was a result of the original members meeting and discussing.

Orzaiz felt Mal jumped the gun with the Null Manifesto. Mal was desperate to get the ball rolling. Let's face it, Orzaiz's whole attitude of not rushing into anything might well have saved the world from a whole lot of hurt if Mal had listened to him.

I often wonder if Fong's "botched" Chrysalis was the result of her failure or quantum influence from Mal. Perhaps the Apostle was just following sub-concious orders when he turned her over to the scalpels of Project Proteus.

[Bahamut810]

Shutting down someones node is not the same as raping them. Its more like tieing an arm behind their back. It even says in the book that he considers that a dire punishment and that he only does that to the gravest of offenders...in this case Pax, who was relentlessly attacking him. He may have needed to as well to lower his soak enough so that he could KO him rather then overkill him.

For his activities during WWII...I dont have my A! book right now so I cant account for thoes. But that is a long time before he becomes Divis Mal. He has had plenty of time to think his actions over and change his ways (so to speak). While this does not excuse what he did before, he still evolved beyond what he was doing.

If I remember correctly, he never actually condoned specific murders. He condoned them taking themselves into their own hands. He will support them as long as they are willing to take accountability for their own actions and make their own 'culture'.

As for him being at the 'burning center'. Consider him like Jesus. Jesus was a good guy. He liked people. He gave some general principals, some good stuff...but people took what he said and ran with it. Love your god and your neighbor soon became kill everyone who is a heretic.

This is why I think that he only aknologed the Count and the other guy...they were making it clear that nova's and baselines were different, and making their own ways. Not misintrepreting what he said to commit whatever.

[phoenix]

As for him being at the 'burning center'. Consider him like Jesus. Jesus was a good guy. He liked people. He gave some general principals, some good stuff...but people took what he said and ran with it. Love your god and your neighbor soon became kill everyone who is a heretic.

Page 81, Mal says "...we Terats must demonstrate to all, nova and baseline alike, the path our race must take - and we must start with Utopia. Primacy, Nova Vigilance, you both have my blessings to carry on. Be my terrible angles and deliver my wrath..."

I think Alex more or less has me sold here.

[Nullifier]

That particular quote, phoenix, is taken way out of context. First of all, Mal is aware of the atrocities that Utopia is commiting against novas. Second, he disapproves of them using novas as slave to their overwhelmingly baseline agendas. Therefore, his animosity towards them, and willingness to support NV and the Primacy's actions against them is perfectly understandable.

[phoenix]

Well, if he's so upset about those things, why is a guy whose character sheet contains the clause "can do anything" leaving it to his henchman and allowing innocent lives to be taken to that end?

[Alex Green]

That particular quote, phoenix, is taken way out of context. First of all, Mal is aware of the atrocities that Utopia is commiting against novas. Second, he disapproves of them using novas as slave to their overwhelmingly baseline agendas. Therefore, his animosity towards them, and willingness to support NV and the Primacy's actions against them is perfectly understandable.

Moving on from Utopia, we have Mal's view on how segments of the Teragen should treat baselines.

(page 81, to the Harvesters) "...For now, however, be monsters. Night and shadow are your providence; teach the baseline masses that there are things in the darkness that eclipse their nightmares in terror."

Then we have Mal's view on the more peaceful segments of the Teragen. (page 81) "Jeremiah, Pedro, it is to you that others come for guidance; give it freely, but know that I am back."

But I really think his final statements sum the whole thing up. Page 82, “This is the essence of Teras: The strong must prevail, the wise must preside, and the enlightened must guide us onward.”

Mal is, of course, by far the most "enlightened one".

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Mal is, of course, by far the most "enlightened one".

Yeah sniffing fumes will do that to a person...

[Bahamut810]

Well, if he's so upset about those things, why is a guy whose character sheet contains the clause "can do anything" leaving it to his henchman and allowing innocent lives to be taken to that end?

Because thats not his job. He just shows 'the way'. He is leaving it up to teregen to decide what to do. They are the new species...they need to find their own way not be hand fed it (little clues, and advisments on how to treat one another are ok though ::blush )

Page 81, Mal says "...we Terats must demonstrate to all, nova and baseline alike, the path our race must take - and we must start with Utopia. Primacy, Nova Vigilance, you both have my blessings to carry on. Be my terrible angles and deliver my wrath..."

Quite frankly this dosent count for baselines when it comes to my comparison. Baselines are to nova's as monkies are to baselines.

It might count for the nova's that the baselines employ, but thats doughtful. Are people who act like (and protect) monkies, better then the monkies themselves? Im sure in his eyes they dont.

That line only means that all thoes who oppose their evolution, and their 'culture' without baselines (for what it is) have no place to do so, and defending yourselves in thoes. Heck...im sure he would advocate forgiving utopian nova's who see the light (like he offered pax before that right smackdown).

“This is the essence of Teras: The strong must prevail, the wise must preside, and the enlightened must guide us onward.”

Such is evolution...and baselines are now one notch down on the chain.

[Alex Green]

So, he's a nice guy because he only advocates the murder/terrorizing of baselines and any nova who opposes the Teragen?

And the monkey analogy is over (and mis) used.

The bulk of Terats (I assume) eat food grown by baselines.

The bulk of Terats (I assume) surf the opnet on computers made by baselines.

The bulk of Terats (I assume) speak languages developed by baselines.

etc.

There is no seperate nova culture in 2008.

Terats don't like this. So they decide to rip apart baseline culture, INSTEAD OF creating their own.

[Bahamut810]

So, he's a nice guy because he only advocates the murder/terrorizing of baselines and any nova who opposes the Teragen?

And the monkey analogy is over (and mis) used.

The bulk of Terats (I assume) eat food grown by baselines.

The bulk of Terats (I assume) surf the opnet on computers made by baselines.

The bulk of Terats (I assume) speak languages developed by baselines.

etc.

There is no seperate nova culture in 2008.

Terats don't like this. So they decide to rip apart baseline culture, INSTEAD OF creating their own.

He advicates protecting Novas how each terat thinks is best since there is no actual nova culture to take from on this. No nova laws to take from. Only monkey laws from a nova worshiping/enslaving culture. And not stopping someone who is doing something wrong in another land is'ent a crime in yours. Im sure US cops arent arresting British people for driving on the wrong side of the english road in the(which is the correct side in the US). To him its not wrong. There is nothing to say its wrong (well...except for baseline law, but thats not Nova law).

I think the monkey analogy is appropriate. Monkies are seperated from us by what...34 genetic strands or some such? They are intelligent, we teach them to do things for us all the time. Humans are still one step above them so have more technology to go on.

Right now there is no seperate nova culture. Thats why Mal dosent stop them. He is taking a do as thou wilt stance because there is no Nova Culture or Nova Law to say otherwise. Im sure that he would be one of the first to say 'no,no...your not doing this' if there were nova laws banning the killing of baselines.

As for the terats killing cultures instead of making them...they dont have any nova laws to stop them. From a Null Manifesto standpoint they are good to go.

[Alex Green]

He advocates protecting Novas…

??? No, he doesn’t. He says the strong must survive and (by implication) the weak must die. That’s why nova serial killers of novas are welcome in the Teragen, because they “get it”.

RE: Monkeys

Most novas don’t have Mega-Intelligence. Another problem is that even the Teragen doesn’t claim that baselines aren’t sentient, nor does it claim that they can’t think. Another problem is baselines don’t generally advocate the murder and extermination of monkeys. Baselines as a whole treat dogs better than Terats want to treat baselines.

We don’t care what monkeys do. Terats care very much about what baselines do.

RE: Social Evolution

It is obvious, baseline culture is better than monkey culture. It is not obvious, even with the benefit of hindsight, that nova culture is better than baseline culture. With all of their so called evolution, I see no evidence that the Teragen is in any way socially evolved. I don’t see any evidence that they will ever be socially evolved. What I do see is a lot of “might makes right” and “cult of personality” type organizations and/or reasoning.

RE: The law

Granted, most of baseline law wasn’t written with the idea of novas. But I don’t think that’s the real problem with “baseline” law. Baseline law could be adapted to novas, “Clone” isn’t that big of a problem for “murder”.

The problem is more political than practical. Mal doesn’t want baselines in charge, even if they are right. Maybe especially if they are right. The only person who should be in charge is the enlightened one, i.e. Mal.

Utopia must be destroyed. Not because they are oppressing novas, Mal doesn’t have any problems with the weak dying. Not even because of the fertility drugs, in 2008 at least 4 novas could undo the fertility drugs and two of them were Terats. Utopia must be destroyed because they are showing that it is possible for novas and baselines to live together peacefully.

[Bahamut810]

??? No, he doesn’t. He says the strong must survive and (by implication) the weak must die. That’s why nova serial killers of novas are welcome in the Teragen, because they “get it”.

Well...they do. As it stands, the Teregen live in a 'society' of anarchy. At the moment they have no 'Nova Laws' to stop them from doing what they want.

Most novas don’t have Mega-Intelligence. Another problem is that even the Teragen doesn’t claim that baselines aren’t sentient, nor does it claim that they can’t think. Another problem is baselines don’t generally advocate the murder and extermination of monkeys. Baselines as a whole treat dogs better than Terats want to treat baselines.

We don’t care what monkeys do. Terats care very much about what baselines do.

The thing is that you are taking this too quickly. Yea, right now (and for a long while) we are beyond monkies in our comprehension of different things. But to say monkies are mindless is incorrect. They can think, and decide. They use tools, and just as importantly they can learn. We just learned to use bigger and better tools over time. It took humanity thousands of years to get the culture that we have now.

We were lucky as well. We have had a giant edge to our survival (our advanced tools). With Nova's they have their edge, but its blunted by baseline edge (population). Nova and baseline relations would be close to what the human/monkey common ansestor and the human would have been. They are slightly more advanced, but they still have a lot of growing to do. You cant expect to successfully create an entire civilisation in just 3 years after all (Null Manifesto came out in 2005), especially when you have so much riding agenst you (over population of a rival species, lack of space to group, being spaced out very well).

Given time they *do* make their own civilisation (Eden anyone?)...I still have to read over what they say about it, but they are what Mal origonally envisioned.

Social evolution, like normal evolution takes time. If they had an extra hundred years like the US did in a good place and (reletivley) little competition they would have their own culture no problem.

The problem is more political than practical. Mal doesn’t want baselines in charge, even if they are right. Maybe especially if they are right. The only person who should be in charge is the enlightened one, i.e. Mal.

This I agree with part of it and disagree with part of it (only in how I think you mean this).

Mal dosent want baselines in charge any more then humans want a gurilla overseer (Planet of the Apes anyone?). The primate will do whats best for its family, clan and country.

[knave]

The whole word 'Evolution' is wrong in this context. Evolution is a change towards best fit of the surroundings. Evolution is accomplished through natural selection - those with advtanges breed. Social Evolution - those with certain ideas and philosophies come to the fore.

Mal wants a rethink of society. Notice I don't say Mal wants to change human society to the Nova norm. He wants Novas to 'cast off their ideas and use their intellects to find other ways they could be. (seems to me anyway)

But as to the statement that the last 5000 years worth of social change is superficial... What a load of bollocks.

Society has evolved toward tolerance and understanding.

We've gone from rule of strength to rule of law. Sure the system isn't perfect and the same bad things still happen, but do you think they happen on anywhere near the same scale per capita?

Don't believe that it can't 'evolve back' - the presence of those 'very bad things' you mention is proof that these ideas and impulses are still present. But evolution isn't about back and forward - it's about 'the environment'. In an environment of plenty there is far less reason for trouble and more moderate ideas tend to prosper. Radical environments breed radical ideas.

[Bahamut810]

Mal wants a rethink of society. Notice I don't say Mal wants to change human society to the Nova norm. He wants Novas to 'cast off their ideas and use their intellects to find other ways they could be. (seems to me anyway)

I agree.

Society has evolved toward tolerance and understanding.

Which is why there is no more mass exicutions of innocent people. Or Jhiads. Or Genocide. Or racism. Or general even just general hate.

Sure we may have change in a few places. But what we have mainly changed in thoes places is one sense of belonging.

For example...

In Africa it wasent just 'african people'. It was this tribe, and this tribe, and this tribe. When they went to war, they took slaves or killed their enemy (thats where a good portion of the slaves who came to america came from). That was their sense of belonging (so to speak of course). They belonged to their tribes.

Lets fast forward to today. The US is very integrated. We have a sense of belonging to the entire country. Same idea, larger society. We still try (and succeed) in taking advantage of other countries, we just go about it in a different way.

Quite frankly...your only taking first world countries into account. Third world countries are all about rule of strength. Thats what a dictator is after all, the general in charge. People in many (not all) first world countries are very lucky in that we can elect our leaders. But even they have a type of 'strength' at their command...public opinion. If your in charge, you can start public campaigns denouncing or approving of something with no problems...*social* might.

New playing field, old game.

(EDIT)

I dont mean to say that all the changes that we have had have been for nothing, many of them are good. I just mean to say that its all 'same old, same old' in terms to people.

[Nullifier]

RE: Social Evolution

It is obvious, baseline culture is better than monkey culture. It is not obvious, even with the benefit of hindsight, that nova culture is better than baseline culture. With all of their so called evolution, I see no evidence that the Teragen is in any way socially evolved. I don’t see any evidence that they will ever be socially evolved. What I do see is a lot of “might makes right” and “cult of personality” type organizations and/or reasoning.

Excuse me? It's obvious that baseline culture is better than monkey culture!? How did you come to that particular conclusion, hm? I just don't see it. ::confused

Now, I agree that as of 2008 the Teragen, as a whole, aren't particularly socially evolved. I never claimed they were. However, it is apparent, to me at least, that that is Mal's intention for them. Unfortunately, evolution is a violent, messy, elitist process that requires a certain amount of choas. Mal understands this, and with it the obvious implication that to evolve socially from the baselines, novas must first break the molds of baseline social conditioning. Now, certainly some novas will do this in different ways, and Mal is willing to accept that, and the consequences it brings. ::devilangel

The whole word 'Evolution' is wrong in this context. Evolution is a change towards best fit of the surroundings. Evolution is accomplished through natural selection - those with advtanges breed. Social Evolution - those with certain ideas and philosophies come to the fore.

*sigh* You know, sometimes I forget that most people still have a linear/Newtonian world view. ::tongue Evolution is about emergence. It's about synergy and dysynergy, about phase changes to higher or lower levels of complexity. Natural selection, sure, that does influence evolution, but it's not evolution, or even the cause of evolution. Evolution is a caused by complexity, by the complex interaction of systems on the edge of chaos and order. Evolution, emergence, the phase change, usually occurs only at times of great stress in the system. At critical points of great chaos, when the limits of order are stretched to their breaking points. Social evolution is no different. For social systems to evolve, they must first be stretched to their breaking points. Assumptions and norms must be challenged and broken before the system can spontaneously reorganize at a higher or lower level of complexity.

Personally, I think that Mal understands this and seeks to create the conditions for evolution to take place. I could be wrong, but I don't really think so. ::wink ::tongue ::smokin

But as to the statement that the last 5000 years worth of social change is superficial... What a load of bollocks.

Society has evolved toward tolerance and understanding.

We've gone from rule of strength to rule of law. Sure the system isn't perfect and the same bad things still happen, but do you think they happen on anywhere near the same scale per capita?

The only difference between rule of strength and rule of law is whose hands the power is in and why. Government is merely another name for the most successful protection racket in history. Don't believe me, go study what a protection racket is. Besides which, there's been rule of law for 5000 years. Only the process has changed, and that only marginally. Sure, there's been a bit of progress, but on the whole it's all just the same old house with new paint.

As for your per capita scale argument, I'd argue that it's gotten worse. Thanks to advances in weapons, communications, and transportation technology, genocide occurs nowadays on a scale never before possible. ::confused ::devil

And evolution isn't about the environment the system exists in, but the system itself. The environment provides an influence to be sure, but in the case of human society it's the system of relations itself that needs to change on a fundamental level. This is because in terms of our social relations we pretty much create our own environment. Anyhow, it's not bollocks to say that we haven't evolved socially in 5000 years. We've made a small amount of progress at our current level of complexity, to be sure, but there's been no actual evolution. Cheers! ::biggrin

[knave]

*sigh* You know, sometimes I forget that most people still have a linear/Newtonian world view.  ::tongue Evolution is about emergence. It's about synergy and dysynergy, about phase changes to higher or lower levels of complexity. Natural selection, sure, that does influence evolution, but it's not evolution, or even the cause of evolution.

Let's look it up.

www.dictionary.com (which smacks of americanism (ie - not supporting me! ::tongue but anyway)

# A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See Synonyms at development.

#

1. The process of developing.

2. Gradual development.

# Biology.

1. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.

2. The historical development of a related group of organisms; phylogeny.

# A movement that is part of a set of ordered movements.

# Mathematics. The extraction of a root of a quantity

Ok. We have better and more complex... Fair points. Wish I had an oxford dictionary handy - but anyway.

Evolution is a caused by complexity, by the complex interaction of systems on the edge of chaos and order. Evolution, emergence, the phase change, usually occurs only at times of great stress in the system. At critical points of great chaos, when the limits of order are stretched to their breaking points. Social evolution is no different. For social systems to evolve, they must first be stretched to their breaking points. Assumptions and norms must be challenged and broken before the system can spontaneously reorganize at a higher or lower level of complexity.

Sigh. ::tongue Now I think you've been reading too much X-Men old bean. See gradual above.

I think what you're looking for is Social Revolution rather than evolution. Granted for any evolution to take place there has to be an outside stress for certain ideas to come to the fore... but there are always small outside stresses. Take formula 1 or Indycar racing - there is always the stress of wanting to be the best/fastest team. It doesn't require there to be one revolutionary breakthrough by one team (though it helps) - as in the case of that Aussie yacht with the winged keel.

The only difference between rule of strength and rule of law is whose hands the power is in and why.

I disagree. I'd venture that every single person who would otherwise be beaten by the local bully would agree. The difference is that more people who are not necessarily strong may live out their lives in ways approximating ones that they would choose for themselves.

Government is merely another name for the most successful protection racket in history. Don't believe me, go study what a protection racket is.

I don't disbelieve you, but it is a lot more benign than a protectection racket that has everyone who challenges it put down hard.

Besides which, there's been rule of law for 5000 years. Only the process has changed, and that only marginally. Sure, there's been a bit of progress, but on the whole it's all just the same old house with new paint.

Think so? Good thing you don't have to send your kids out as labourers at age 8 then. It's nice to have weekends. It's good to have such things as state medical health. It's nice to have the possibility of living out a lifetime never experiencing serious violence.

As for your per capita scale argument, I'd argue that it's gotten worse. Thanks to advances in weapons, communications, and transportation technology, genocide occurs nowadays on a scale never before possible.  ::confused  ::devil

I don't say it's not possible to do devilish amounts of harm. I just say that 1) what power there is is far less likely to be used, 2) many more people live without the prospect of constant threat 3) many many more people live comfortable existence and 4) many more people feel secure in their everyday lives.

And evolution isn't about the environment the system exists in, but the system itself. The environment provides an influence to be sure, but in the case of human society it's the system of relations itself that needs to change on a fundamental level. This is because in terms of our social relations we pretty much create our own environment. Anyhow, it's not bollocks to say that we haven't evolved socially in 5000 years. We've made a small amount of progress at our current level of complexity, to be sure, but there's been no actual evolution. Cheers! ::biggrin

Anarchy / Dictatorship / Monarchy / Feudalism / Democracy / Socialism / Communism / Libertarian Anchary

Each change above is a social REVOLUTION - nevermind evolution. What do you define as a 'small amount of progress'?

Utopia is a destination you're not supposed to be able to reach.

Something I want to add here... Ambition is more often than not view as a good quality. Ambition REQUIRES there to be a power differential. So Ambition screws up any possibility of Utopian society ever happening.

[Nullifier]

O.k., you know what Knave? Believe whatever you want to believe. After writing and accidentally erasing two huge posts in response to yours, I just don't give a d*mn anymore. I will say this: your response makes me think you're either incrediably naive, ignorant, delusional, or all three. If you're really interested in what I'm talking about, I suggest you read the news regularly, read between the lines in the history books, agitate for the overthrow of a government, look up the definition of the word 'oligarchy', and/or study Complexity Theory. If after all of that you want further clarification, let me know, and I'll be happy to provide it. I'm done trying to explain things to you guys in page-long posts that to be adequately explained would need hundreds upon hundreds of pages. Good luck with your discussion, and happy hunting! ::tongue ::biggrin

[phoenix]

Kin ah get a ha-ley-loo-yah! ::wink ::tongue ::halo

[Gideon]

Just to add a few points of knowledge...

Culture:

Culture is often defined as being three parts of Environment, Institutions and Tools. Of interest Sociologists and Anthropologists suggest that physical evolution has been sidetracked by cultural or social evolution.

What this boils down to is that evolutionary forces are only actively manipulated by homo sapien (novus or sapien). that being the case it would be more appropriate to compare Homo Sapiens to Neanderthals. as the more aggressive and more adaptive species eventually left the other in the evolutionary dust.

Governance vs culture:

Firstly, Anarchy is not a culture. It is a collection of personal individualized ethics with no singlularly dominating guiding prinicple. Also neither are Oligarchy, Dictatorship or Democracy any form of culture. These are all forms of governance. Wrong or right they have nothing to do with what is wrong or right, though there are benevolent dictatorships and corrupt republics. Ethics are not directed by governances, though certain governances conrol what portion of the governed population has the authority to direct the rule of law.

e.g.

Anarchy - no one has authority over another. Each individual drives their own sense of ethics.

Dictatorship - one has authority over all. One individual directs the ethical behavior in the public, though double standards are easy to introduce.

etc.

Ethics of being "good" or "evil":

As Plato expounds in his work titled "The Republic", the principal reason for a King to be a just and fair King is if their is some final absolute judgement after Death. Plato also goes on to indicate that the only logical type of Ruler is one that is always just or always self-serving, such a ruler will come out ahead in the end. It is a ruler that vascilates between being just and corrupt that is the worst sort of ruler. It is possible to read corrupt as selfish and just as selfless.

Secondary Points:

To say that no nova laws are in effect is untrue. (I am not refering to baseline laws about novas) Every team of novas (and yes even the Utopian novas count here) that work together as a "Team" and have rules of conduct within the team have the basis of tribal law (which is a step away from anarchy). Many teams are also led by a commonly elected charismatic leader. Cestus Pax has already arose as a Chief of chiefs within the Utopian system, as Orzaiz is part of the "inner circle" of the Teragen another sort of "chief among chiefs". Divis Mal is more of a "High King". Though the Teragen structure bears many similarities to a republic with a weakly bound senate. the lack of enforcement and the lack of organization makes the group more like a celtic clan society.

Just a few thoughts on the subject of morality and the cultural/physical evolution of novus.

[Alex Green]

{Moving the topic back to its roots...}

The core belief structure of Teras preaches a separatist philosophy. It says that Novas are not bound by baseline laws nor should they allow themselves to be "used" by baseline society as "slaves" (ie T2M, Elites, etc). So isn't it going against their philosophy to have intimate associations with baselines (Orzaiz) or to engage in the acquisition of baseline wealth (Mathmatician, the Pandemonium)? Doesn't the very act of using money to buy stuff mean you are still acting within baseline society?

Orzaiz is very vulnerable during the Night of Long Knives sequence, most approaches don't have him living through it. He is an obvious target for the reasons you outlined.

The Mathmatician has the advantages of foresight, money, and the fact he's been through a change.

The Pandemonium is also an obvious target, but is I think less vulnerable because it isn't taken as seriously by the others. It also has connections and number. It is also possible to argue that the Pandemonium enslaves baselines.

[knave]

O.k., you know what Knave? Believe whatever you want to believe.

Hidellyho neighbouroni. I think I might just do that. Isn't that just diddly dandy? ::tongue If I didn't just doodly do that, I might be accused of being bullied into other people's opinions. That could certainly confirm naivety amongst my sins.

So bear in mind I didn't say I didn't believe we weren't living in an Oligarchy. Blatantly we are. Like Duh Elmo ::wacko But also blatantly the modern western elite have realised that they tend to be unseated less often when the people they control are not just sheep, but rather comfortable sheep scared of losing their diet of sound bytes and talking heads.

So, what I said was that the average citizen of matrix world is a lot happier, more comfortable and safer than the average citizen of 'Unplugged - Take the power back world' or 'F*ck me it's the Dark Ages! world' because those in power, rather than having to subdue him or her by force have a reason to keep him/her comfortable and safe and in the dark.

If you want to argue about the size of the change pick a metric. Otherwise it's just 'my dragon claw beats your tiger-crane style grasshopper' - talk...

[madcat82]

I dont find it strange that the Teratian novas act the way they act. Consider this: We have a lot more info about Mals thoughts and ideas, and we cant agree what they mean.

And on a separete note:

After writing and accidentally erasing two huge posts in response to yours,

I usualy write my posts in notepad and save them befor I reply to or create a topic. That way its hard for me to erase them while I also can browse around the topics. Just a friendly tip.

[Nullifier]

Yeah, I thought of that madcat, after I lost those two posts. Hindsight being 20/20 and all. ::wink ::tongue