Blue Thunder Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 war does not create peaceWars lead to peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Wars lead to peace. ,, Ha! Prove it...,, We have been at war one way or another for the last century and even farther back,, We have not yet creted peace. In fact...we have created more war than ever before.,, Case in point: Every enemy soldier you kill or defeat will have angry friends and relatives who will hate you...in vietnam, afghanistan and now iraq...the more we tighten, the more people who are displaced or bereaved, the stronger the urge for revenge, reprisal and opposition... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueNinja Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Ha! Prove it... Dead people don't fight back.,, We have been at war one way or another for the last century and even farther back,, We have not yet creted peace. In fact...we have created more war than ever before.,, Case in point: Every enemy soldier you kill or defeat will have angry friends and relatives who will hate you...in vietnam, afghanistan and now iraq...the more we tighten, the more people who are displaced or bereaved, the stronger the urge for revenge, reprisal and opposition... This is because we're not willing to push them hard enough they have to chose whether or not we exterminate them down to the last man, or if they give up and play nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Dead people don't fight back.,, This is because we're not willing to push them hard enough they have to chose whether or not we exterminate them down to the last man, or if they give up and play nice. ,, spoken like a true fascits, totalitarian, genocidal maniac! Yeah! i want to vote for THAT guy!!! ::glare ,, And anyway...the more you tighten your grip and keep people repressed with extermination...you are going to breed suicidal terrorists who would rather die and take you with them than suffer under your repression...oh wait..isnt that what is happening now???,, Seriously...there are people who HATE us to DEATH for our foreign policy.,, And a world ruled by fear is not a peaceful world...,, the only thing that creates peace is true peacefullness. Not passivity. Not pacifiscm. PEACE-FULL-NESS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueNinja Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 spoken like a true fascits, totalitarian, genocidal maniac! Yeah! i want to vote for THAT guy!!! You heard him folks - Cestus Pax for World Dictator! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psilord Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 The Directive: "The road to hell..."The Teragen: "Spare the rod...."Project Utopia: "Too much sugar..."Project Proteus: "All your world is belong to us..."The Aberrants: "Too little..."--------------------The path to peace is in three parts:1. The tolerance and acceptance of the diferences of others; be it cultural, religious, political, etc.2. The lack of arrogance in assuming your rights/rulership/outlook are more inherently correct than those of your neighbor.3. The mandate of accepting responsibility for your own actions and words, and not placating the weaknesses of others in shirking their responsibility.Just my thoughts on the subject, take it or leave it. ::closedeyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 the only thing that creates peace is true peacefullness. Not passivity. Not pacifiscm. PEACE-FULL-NESS. You have real world examples of this?Issue: Slavery.The North could have let the South keep their slaves, that would have been peaceful. Or they could have let the South go. Should they have?Issue: IsraelIf Israel were truely peaceful it wouldn't exist, it would have been wiped out in 1947 (20 years before taking the West Bank). Lot's of people don't want it to exist. To be fair, they have some points. What they don't have is more force on their side.Issue: WWIIFrance and England bought 'peace in their time' and made a peace treater with Hitler... and that lasted for several years. The eventual price for it was pretty high however.There are issues that people feel so strongly about that they will fight over them. Your choices are 1) Let them win. 2) Fight them or 3) Be strong enough that they don't dare.The heck of it is that everyone has a reason, but some of those issues are not rational. The other heck of it is that in the real world, perfect information is not available, ethical choices may not be available, or worse, ethical choices may not be correct choices at a country level.The path to peace is in three parts:1. The tolerance and acceptance of the diferences of others; be it cultural, religious, political, etc....I'm reading a book where a discussion question was: Why do the tolerant find it difficult to tolerate the intolerant?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphysician Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 The Directive: "The road to hell..."The Teragen: "Spare the rod...."Project Utopia: "Too much sugar..."Project Proteus: "All your world is belong to us..."The Aberrants: "Too little..."--------------------The path to peace is in three parts:1. The tolerance and acceptance of the diferences of others; be it cultural, religious, political, etc.2. The lack of arrogance in assuming your rights/rulership/outlook are more inherently correct than those of your neighbor.3. The mandate of accepting responsibility for your own actions and words, and not placating the weaknesses of others in shirking their responsibility.Just my thoughts on the subject, take it or leave it. ::closedeyesI'd add4. The willingness to fight to preserve and protect 1-3More generally, the problem with pacifism, however you phrase or qualify it, is that those who are unwilling to fight will serve those who are, eventually. Its, at base, a form of the Tragedy of the Commons. The more peaceful, and the more desiring of peace, people are, the bigger reward their is for the first person whose ruthless enough to be warlike.Until men are angels, there will always be war. The moral choice ( after reaching the idea that you shouldn't fight wars for simple material gain at the expense of others ) is a matter of choosing the path that leads to short wars rather than long wars, milder rather than bloodier wars, and most importantly, wars where the more moral side wins, rather than loses. It doesn't matter how nice and just you are if the Nazis kick your ass and then turn your lands into a panoply of terror and darkness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 I wasnt quoting real world examples because our world has been at war pretty much since the agricultural revolution....this was also the point at which the organization of people into classes...haves and have nots occured as the first cities were built and not everyone got an equal share,, I am sure hierarchys existed before but in a tribal setting where everyone contributes to survival the power discrepencies arent so much of an issue. As far as I know, the only prehistorical culture we know of are the aboriginies of Australia, who have a tradition going back (at least) 40,000 years. Some Anthropologists claim 60 or even 100,000.,, Now perhaps Ayre can enlighten me but I believe that they had/have a rather peacful and harmonious worldview without inter-tribal warfare. I could be wrong on this point.,,,, However I will say:,, Just because we have never seen a peaceful planet doesnt mean we never will. In fact we have more of the ability to CHOOSE peace than ever before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Issue: Slavery.The North could have let the South keep their slaves, that would have been peaceful. Or they could have let the South go. Should they have?,, It still wouldnt be peaceful...The south had slaves and enslaving people isnt peacful.,,Issue: WWIIFrance and England bought 'peace in their time' and made a peace treater with Hitler... and that lasted for several years. The eventual price for it was pretty high however.,, It wasnt peaceful...hitler was commiting genocide so somebody was still getting the short end.,,There are issues that people feel so strongly about that they will fight over them. Your choices are 1) Let them win. 2) Fight them or 3) Be strong enough that they don't dare.,,The heck of it is that everyone has a reason, but some of those issues are not rational. The other heck of it is that in the real world, perfect information is not available, ethical choices may not be available, or worse, ethical choices may not be correct choices at a country level.,, this is why I admire people like Bucky Fuller who have the nerve to admit that countries and nations are obsolete...they are an engine of division between humans. We must realize that we are all the same, in spite of *percieved* differences.,, Also the irrationality must be done away with. People who hate others whether they hate blacks, jews, arabs, or caucasians mostly do so because of they have been indoctrinated to....Simple uneducated, irrational bigotedness.I'm reading a book where a discussion question was: Why do the tolerant find it difficult to tolerate the intolerant?. ,, I love it...I saw a bumper sticker that said "If you are so non-judgmental, then why are you judging me for my judgementalness?",, I have thought on this subject a great deal in my life as I, like all of us, have seen the darker aspects of this planet.,, All I have come up with is that there is no such thing as a limited peace. As long as one of us suffers or is enslaved then all of us are...Not until each and everyone of us can come to a perspective of inner peace within ourselves..where we do not fear, when we no longer succumb to our pettier natures....,, In other words...humanity as individuals must become enlightened before we can expect society to.,, Even more profound is when you see how tenuos of a thread civilization hangs by. When people are starving or afraid its right back to self-preservation at all costs.,, I other words, civilization is but a thin veneer...society is either an illusion or a game we all play, knowingly or not. We are truly individuals and must stand responsible for our own actions.,, Does this make me a pacifist? no. Would I raise my hand to protect my loved ones? yes Would I raise my hand to protect a stranger? Id like to think so but know if I saw someone being beaten to death by men with guns in an alley Id proabably run like there was no tommorow...,, Perhaps world peace is a pipe dream...but then again...We havent ever REALLY tried....there have always been selfish interests profiting from conflict who have underminded all of our efforts...case in point: the massive ineffectivness of the United Nations...,, I met a brother once who had the name of Peace. He was dubbed thus by Afrika Bambatta himself who told him it stood for,, People Everywhere Are Created Equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 I suggest that the world is far more peaceful than ever before and appears to be growing more so. At a guess, increased Technology and (especially) Wealth and the Growth of the middle class have all been very stabilizing. We have more, we have more to lose. Modern society/culture tends to restrict tribalism.Other big aspects to all this are the growth of international trade (you can't go to war with your trading partners without really taking it in your wallet), and the reliance of countries on their people (as opposed to their armies or their mineral resources) for wealth. This tends to lend support for the idea of good things in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 I suggest that the world is far more peaceful than ever before and appears to be growing more so. ,, have you seen the news? More people have died in the last one hundred years from war than ever before...,,At a guess, increased Technology and (especially) Wealth and the Growth of the middle class have all been very stabilizing. We have more, we have more to lose. Modern society/culture tends to restrict tribalism.,, the middle class has been steadily shrinking. The world over and here in the US the gap between rich and poor widens. Advanced technology isnt available equally to all. And the tribes are now different...its the company you work for, or the country you live in, or the gangs on the streets. All of us have our inner circles...they may interconnect more but they are what pass for tribes. Most of us have no idea what it is really like to live in a community where everyone needs the others for survival. We have become fractured, disconnected, alone at our computer screens... ::tongue ,,Other big aspects to all this are the growth of international trade (you can't go to war with your trading partners without really taking it in your wallet), and the reliance of countries on their people (as opposed to their armies or their mineral resources) for wealth. ,, No but you can engage in economic slavery and corporations can exploit developing countries. The IMF and the World Bank have done more to economically enslave others than ever before...especially when what is good for people (like cjild labor laws etc.) arent good for business. Yes Nikes and many other products are still made in sweatshops. For an example that hits closer to home, look into the history of our blatent and military/greed based forceful takeover of the sovereign nation of Hawaii to allow American business in. Or look at the gunship we used to open up Japan for the Meiji restoration....Trade with us and let our merchants in or we'll bombard you...,,This tends to lend support for the idea of good things in the future. ,, I am glad you think so....I share your optimism but believe that the Social Evolution towards peace for our species wont happen so long as we maintian our pride in nation-states (rather than humanity and the whole ecosystem we depend on) and insit on false economics...ie that based on the concepts of scarcity and competition for resources combined with the so-called "social darwinism".,, For more information please see the life and work of R. Buckminster Fuller. Alex, as an engineer, I believe he will speak to you on your level as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 It wasnt peaceful...hitler was commiting genocide so somebody was still getting the short end.Actually No. That treaty was before the genocide... although he'd made it pretty clear that's what he wanted to do. Roughly as clear as Sadam BTW. this is why I admire people like Bucky Fuller who have the nerve to admit that countries and nations are obsolete...they are an engine of division between humans. We must realize that we are all the same, in spite of *percieved* differences.Spoken like a Terat. Perhaps eventually technology will do this. Currently however, one problem with elimiating Countries is evil can happen quite easily on a local level. The definition of a functioning government is one that claims, and has, a monopoly on the use of force. Get rid of government and we all live in peace without the threat of force... until someone or something fills that vacuum. Someone forms an armed millia, and the government's bigger army doesn't step in to stop them.,,Also the irrationality must be done away with. People who hate others whether they hate blacks, jews, arabs, or caucasians mostly do so because of they have been indoctrinated to....Simple uneducated, irrational bigotedness.Careful there. God in all his flavors isn't near ready to die yet. In other words...humanity as individuals must become enlightened before we can expect society to.Well put. Largely true. And another very Terat thing to say.,,I other words, civilization is but a thin veneer...society is either an illusion or a game we all play, knowingly or not. We are truly individuals and must stand responsible for our own actions.Same comment.,,Perhaps world peace is a pipe dream...but then again...We havent ever REALLY tried....there have always been selfish interests profiting from conflict who have underminded all of our efforts...case in point: the massive ineffectivness of the United Nations...If you are going to try to get rid of selfishness then you are doomed to failure. We are built to want the prettier girl, the bigger paycheck, *more* *stuff*, more fame, more power, *more*. It is part of the human condition. Fail to realize that and your foundation for peace can not stand.Because of that nature, Peace is NOT a good thing by itself. Peace exists to minimize the risk that I will lose my stuff in a war. Because I (or the mass of I's collectively) have influence on my government I ask it to make peace and largely get my way. However the same effect also creates war. I am not a "peace at any price movement". If the risk to my stuff is greater from peace than from war, then it is in my government's interest to go to war, mostly to remove bad actors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Thunder Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 I guess all I really have to say on this issue now is this:I don't want world peace. It would be a nightmare to me.In order for true peace to exist, everyone would need to be te same. Same race, same religion, same political system, same government, same laws, same opinions, same sexuality, same everything. You can disagree if you want but it's true. As long as differences exist between people, any kind of differencs, world peace will not be achievable. The differences will always divide people. But I'd rather live in a world with war, poverty, and sufferng if it meant diversity existed.Peace does exist; but it's always temporary, and it never covers the entire world at once. It's up to nations willing to fight to bring about more peace, if only to themselves. People that don't fight wars to preserve their peace and the stability of their nation and region allow more chaos to take hold, and eventually any prospect of having peace become that much harder to reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 I guess all I really have to say on this issue now is this:I don't want world peace. It would be a nightmare to me.In order for true peace to exist, everyone would need to be te same. Same race, same religion, same political system, same government, same laws, same opinions, same sexuality, same everything. You can disagree if you want but it's true. As long as differences exist between people, any kind of differencs, world peace will not be achievable. The differences will always divide people. ,, I do so disagree. Fundamentally we are all the same...and I really mean on a fundamental level. You want to do what you want? So does everyone else! As different as we seem on the surface we are motivated by the same biology...,, Now: I have many friends who are all very different in their expression of humanity but we are not at war...we celebrate our difference, our diversity. We co-exist in peace. Some of my co-workers are gay. I am not. Theres a difference...yet we exist in peace. I do not buy that any kind of difference destroys peace.... To answer Alexs point on Selfishness...My idea is not to eradicate selfishness and make everyone selfless...hes right that it wont work. Buckys idea (as well as many others with completely different worldviews, ie Kahlil Gibran) was to transcend selfishness. He proposed that we completelty restructure humanity on a global level...1 world, 1 people, no borders. You create a global energy grid (See the GENI project) so that the light half of the world is always powering the dark half of the world through eco-friendly sustainable means. There would be a redistribution of resources (See The World-Game project) but not in the communist sense...See Bucky catalogued our physical resources...people would say "Bucky Why are you an optimist?" And he would reply "I am neither optimist nor pessimest...I am an engineer and these are the facts".,, For example...instead of mining new ores and stripping the earth...we ramp up total recycling of all the worlds metals etc. and aplly this concept across industry.,, Heres a kicker...He wanted us to change our focus from Weaponry to what he called Livingry...all the resources we currently put into international or other war be put to enhancing human life. So rather than the Soviet idea of redistribution where the people suffered so the government could enter the Cold War arms race, we have a redistribution that raises everyones standard of life higher than its ever been...,, I saw an interesting sheet that showed a grid representing the US of As ANNUAL military expenditure with every box being a billion dollars. Then superimposed was "WHAT THE WORLD WANTS" (the name of the study. In order to: end world hunger, combat world aids, retire all foreign debt, get rid of landmines, etc etc...it was all laid out and it would cost less than a third of what we spend on military EVERY YEAR....,, If humanity all worked together we could transform this planet into an Eden for EVERYONE in 10-20 years...maybe another 40-80 for complete ecological restoration,, The ideas, the technology, the means already exist and have for decades...we are even further along now...all we have lacked is the COLLECTIVE WILL AS A SPECIES,, NOW: For Blue Thunder: This doesnt mean we are all the same....In fact we would all have more freedom to pursue our individual desires...so long as it doesnt hurt anyone else...Do what you want...be who you want, dress how you want, even talk how you want (but if you arent nice no one will be your friend) eat what you want (though there would be a premium on meat since it takes grain that could feed others to give it to the cow etc.), travel, enjoy the beauty of life....just dont hurt anyone else...,, Buckys vision was of cities transformed...no more schools..everyone has access to video based learning put together by the top minds on the planet on every subject (he died pre internet so we have it even better).,, The individual is empowered...the motivation for work becomes the creation of public works that truly serve everyone...and since housing is taken care of, food etc. you no longer WORK FOR A LIVING...trading your time for the means of survival. You work in your chosen field because you are passionate about it. ,, Again this takes an enlightenment and education of our species... I ask you: What if EVERY Single human was completely well educated, empowered and nurtured to their total creative potential? If you KNEW that you didnt have to COMPETE with everyone else for resources...there was simply enough to go around...case in point: There is no energy crisis...only a crisis of ignorance (Bucky said this during the oil-crisis in the 70s). In other words..there is no shortage of energy...of electrons everywhere...photons, wind, waves, steam etc etc etc....We just arent FULLY utilizing WHAT we have Discovered...in fact we are MASSIVELY inefficient.,, For a great take on how these ideas can be assimilated into a CAPITALIST form, where the ideals of healthy competition exist (and mind you I love healthy competition when its aims are directed towards mutually uplifting things...) check out Paul Hawkens and Hunter Lovins book, "Natural Capitalism",, Oh and Alex...God isnt dead...its just bigger and more all encompassing than myopic self-interested religions want to admit...another way to say what I think on this subject is that there is no need to fight on theroies of how we got here when we could just step into the PRESENT and realize that we ARE here...and then do something constructive with WHAT WE DO KNOW....besides fight over our imaginary friends...I think thats what George Carlin called them... ::laugh ,, For further insight see Maslows Hierarchy of needs...get the basics taken care of and you can have Self-Actualized Human Beings...,, we could give Novas a challenge! (how terat is that hmmm??? ::tongue ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueNinja Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 <--- Teragen Philosophy .... The current topic ---------------> ::tongue ::laugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Thunder Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Shush, you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Shush, you! ,, Am I the one being shushed?,, And topics tend to evolve. I was answering the (very compelling to me at least) idea of how we could achieve a functional world of peace while maintaining a sense of purpose and friendly, fun, satisfying competition... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueNinja Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Am I the one being shushed? I think that was to me.,, And topics tend to evolve. I was answering the (very compelling to me at least) idea of how we could achieve a functional world of peace while maintaining a sense of purpose and friendly, fun, satisfying competition... Oh, that's simple - join Project Utopia! Just ask them, it's what they're all about! ::happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Although not exactly Terat philosophy IMHO all of this is definitely trans-human philosophy so we're only slightly off topic.Buckys idea… was to transcend selfishness. So rather than the Soviet idea of redistribution where the people suffered so the government could enter the Cold War arms race, we have a redistribution that raises everyones standard of life higher than its ever been...Hey, I’m good with all of that as long as it doesn’t cost me any money or take any of my stuff away. ::sly There would be a redistribution of resources (See The World-Game project) but not in the communist sense...He wanted us to change our focus from Weaponry to what he called Livingry...all the resources we currently put into international or other war be put to enhancing human life. Sounds like the idea in general is to take things away from the people who have guns and give to the people who don’t. In general this is a good idea. The problem is, who bells the cat? Many utopian societies fail when they have to deal with the presence of bad actors, evil, call it what you will. For example the Amish system has had problems dealing with child abusers and rapists. Basically because everyone is supposed to be ‘good’ and turn the other cheek, the abuser doesn’t get stopped. On a global level, what do we do about North Korea? Iran? The world was not able to cooperate with what to do about Iraq, in which a Hilter-ish dictator and multiple mass murderer with a love for weapons of mass destruction was in charge of a significant fraction of the world’s oil wealth. For that matter, the world didn’t deal well with the Rwandan genocide (because the US didn’t do anything it didn’t get done), or the former Yugoslavia (nothing happened until the US got involved), or Sudan (the US is busy). Any solution that depends on “collective will” raises the issue of what to do with bad actors. The individual is empowered...the motivation for work becomes the creation of public works that truly serve everyone...and since housing is taken care of, food etc. you no longer WORK FOR A LIVING...trading your time for the means of survival. You work in your chosen field because you are passionate about it. Farming is a dirty job, what do we do if there aren’t enough of them? How many garbage men are going to be passionate about their job? The list goes on.The real wild card is nova powers. One nova does all the farming for everyone. Everyone has Adaptability so we don’t need to eat. Etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Farming is a dirty job, what do we do if there aren’t enough of them? How many garbage men are going to be passionate about their job? The list goes on.,, until recently farmers were way more common. Part of the trouble is we are using chemical intensive large scale agriculture that is stripping our topsoil.,, Please See: Permaculture.,, Essentially every home with a plot of land would be utilized...we would have garden cities, gardens on rooftops etc. It would be a whole community effort so it wouldn't take much time. If you didnt want to grow your own food you would essentially lease part of your front yard for other to come and tend. In exchange for this small use of space you would be fed. There would be plenty to go around. Also EVERY rooftop would have solar or wind power and now their are even soalr collecting windows and tiles. In addition there are now piezo-electric generators that can be placed under sidewalks generating power from the small compression of every footfall. These can also be built into our clothes, shoes etc...,, As for garbage please look into another concept: Zero Waste. In nature and natural ecosystems waste always equals food for something else. We need to take a lesson from the biosphere and redisgn our whole system so that everything is infintitly recycleable...just like in nature. Chemicals, plastics etc, that have been removed from this natural cycle (including nuclear/toxic waste etc.) MUST not be created...,, In other words we need to wake up and stop S---ing in our own home... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphysician Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 IOW, society needs to revert to a preindustrial agrarian tech level, accompanied by the obligatory billions of deaths.*yawn* I'd be horrified, but I expect little better from environmentalists these days. Its a pity, there's alot of people who do like things like not clearcutting forests, and being able to breath the air, but when the environmental movement is bent on being the next megadeath utopian secular religion. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 IOW, society needs to revert to a preindustrial agrarian tech level, accompanied by the obligatory billions of deaths.*yawn* I'd be horrified, but I expect little better from environmentalists these days. Its a pity, there's alot of people who do like things like not clearcutting forests, and being able to breath the air, but when the environmental movement is bent on being the next megadeath utopian secular religion. . . ,, hardly! The stuff I am talking about has only become possible in that last century... We dont need to get rid of technology...We just need to use it in much more effiecient ways towards more enlightened goals. And to Blue Thunder Re: War and Peace,, If you think peace is boring then lets do a creative visualization exercise (shouldnt be too hard for us roleplayers),, Imagine yourself...you...not a nova...no powers etc....,, having to live through the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan. Or with artillery falling around you in Baghdad. Or being trapped in the WTC when the building is going down....,, Now imagine things are peaceful...You re at home, no one is trying to kill you. You turn on some music or the tele. Kick back. Have a brew. Make love with your partner...ah the good life!,, No my friend...Peace is where all the fun is at!!!,, War = Hell. Even Red blooded Gung-ho indoctrinated patriotic soldier types still come home with PTS syndrome and nerve damage from agent orange, landmines etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 hardly! The stuff I am talking about has only become possible in that last century...You're talking about totally reshaping every aspect of society. I know the desired ends is Utopia, but...1) People might not behave as you expect them to, thus preventing Utopia from functioning. 2) Worse, even assuming that this Utopia is possible (which is far from assured) you also have to figure out how to get there. There would be winners and losers in this game, and the losers would resist, probably violently. That implies that it is done at gun point. Which implies someone is holding the guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 hardly! The stuff I am talking about has only become possible in that last century...You're talking about totally reshaping every aspect of society. I know the desired ends is Utopia, but...1) People might not behave as you expect them to, thus preventing Utopia from functioning. 2) Worse, even assuming that this Utopia is possible (which is far from assured) you also have to figure out how to get there. There would be winners and losers in this game, and the losers would resist, probably violently. That implies that it is done at gun point. Which implies someone is holding the guns. ,, Nope. 1 is assured. practically...even when people know smoking is bad for their health they dont get treatment for the addiction,, 2. Its already been mostly figured out. The losers in this case would be the ones who for whatever reason dont want to go of controlling the populace through fear...there is definitly a war-mongering old guard that needs to go....the good news is that the politicians and corporate and other monetary interests (meaning ANY company (in this case most) that creates waste or is ecologically unhealthy or who makes profit from weapons etc...) need us more than we need them....,, We are talking about a total shift. Its not impossible but there are alot of people (though still a tiny minority) who enjoy their wealthy lifestyles and power from the sale and manufacture of death, strife, and suffering, in one form or another.,, It is possible and some of the authors and texts I have mentioned above are pointing the finger in the correct direction.,,,, Bottom line is: We know that our current way of life is unsustainable...sooner or later the bubble will burst. We know this as surely as we know oil will run out. Whether or not the infrastructure is in place to make a smooth and peaceful transition in time is not so clear...and again I would like to reiterate...I am no luddite...we dont have to go back to the old ways...like Teras, humanity needs to evolve into something better with all of the knowledge and understanding we have gained so far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 2. Its already been mostly figured out. The losers in this case would be the ones who for whatever reason dont want to go of controlling the populace through fear...there is definitly a war-mongering old guard that needs to go....the good news is that the politicians and corporate and other monetary interests (meaning ANY company (in this case most) that creates waste or is ecologically unhealthy or who makes profit from weapons etc...) need us more than we need them....And everyone (i.e. the majority) who don't like change, fear change, view themselves off as better under the current system, don't think the plan is workable, are attached to their national identity, tribal identity, or who don't like "the government" telling them what to do. This could easily include various countries armies.Remember the Black Hawk Down incident in Solmolia? We were there to feed the people and arrest bad guys. Unfortunately the bad guys had the support of a segment of the local population and an armed milia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 And everyone (i.e. the majority) who don't like change, fear change, view themselves off as better under the current system, don't think the plan is workable, are attached to their national identity, tribal identity, or who don't like "the government" telling them what to do. This could easily include various countries armies.Remember the Black Hawk Down incident in Solmolia? We were there to feed the people and arrest bad guys. Unfortunately the bad guys had the support of a segment of the local population and an armed milia. ,, Which is why I said that we can only create such a world if EVERYONE (or at least a large enough majority) comes to an enlightened perspective as INDIVIDUALS. We (or whoever) would have to lead them through a cognitive process by which they could come to this decison on their own. People have to question or else its still just indoctrination,,, The appeal of course is that you are really offering them a better way of life...In other words rather than defeat selfishness you show them how they can be totally selfish and fullfilled and yet its still all good for everyone else...everyone gets what they want.,, It would be cool if we knew how to technologically or psychologiclly UNDO PTS disorder.,, Then we could take all the war mongering people (and especially politicians and dictators who make others do the dirty work) and subject them to intense virtual reality combat, including the experience of being shot, stabbed, burned alive, exploded, maimed and crippled along with all the pain and stress...make them live a real battlefield of horror. Then you take them back...undo the PTS and damage and say "Yeah that sucked @$$ huh??!?!! maybe we could consider better alternatives to war now?!?!?!?!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Then we could take all the war mongering people (and especially politicians and dictators who make others do the dirty work) and subject them to intense virtual reality combat, including the experience of being shot, stabbed, burned alive, exploded, maimed and crippled along with all the pain and stress...make them live a real battlefield of horror. Then you take them back...undo the PTS and damage and say "Yeah that sucked @$$ huh??!?!! maybe we could consider better alternatives to war now?!?!?!?!"There are things worse than war and sometimes war is actually the lesser evil. The various Genocides that have happened in recent memory are probably worse, as is living under a very repressive totalitarian government. Nazi Germany. Pol Pot's system. Etc. Thus we have various tribal groups (currently in Iraq) who fear that the other side will set that sort of thing up against them.Lots of this has inpact on the Teragen. Rather than live in fear and be repressed by PU, they go to war. Of course it's a coin flip whether they won or not.One of the real problems with war isn't that it is evil (although it is) but rather it's chaotic nature. War can be a cleaning fire, or it can spread. War can inflict just punishment on the people who have it coming... but it also has the nasty tendancy to involve innocent victims. War ended Slavery. War ended the Nazis. War ended the Rowandin Genocide. War created Israel (they think this was a good thing even if others don't). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 okay. sorry. my bad.. When I say war I really mean "Any violence or enslavement inflicted upon another sentient being" genocide is a war declared on a gene pool. I thought I had been clear on this but guess it pays to define your terms... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoenix Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Here's some Teragen philosophy for you guys. This is a quote from Divis Mal on page 80 in the Teragen book.To date, you have wandered through the forest of uncertainty, novas drowning in a sea of mediocrity. Some run blindly, cower in the shadows and wait for night to devour them. Others, shackled by their perceptions, stagnate and become like the trees around them - tall, proud and potent, but unmoving, rooted in time, in understanding and in place.So I guess you get a Chrysalis point every time you mix a metaphor. ::unsure ::laugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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