Aberrant RPG - Getting Run Down

[Turk]

ok, i havent seen anything in the books about getting hit by a moving vehicle. i'm asking if there are stats for getting hit by cars and trucks or if anyone has devoloped a system for it. i'm also interested in what someone might take for damage from jumping or being thrown from a moving vehicle.

i'm a ST on occasion and if it happened i'd probably make some damage based on how fast the car was going, like a Jeep hit Peter Pedestrian at 50 mph, i'd say Poor Petey takes like 50 bashing, and i'm guessing that's lenient...

being in a car crash is another story, but i'm curious about other people's opinions on that too.

hit me back

mace

[ProfPotts]

Aberrant core book, p.251, under the heading 'Vehicular Slams'.

[Turk]

lol, i totally didnt see that... well that seems rather crappy for damage, i figured it would be more

[ProfPotts]

You think that's strange - try comparing the damage from a vehicle impact, a hyperspeed or aerial slam, & falling damage - all based on speed, & all on different scales. A distinct lack of continuity in the sytem there, I think... ::confused ::wacko

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Hmm... I would have gone with: 1L per 20km/h as a base and add 1 level of damage for each 20km/h set after the first... (blah tried to explain but brain doesn't function well after the graveyard shift) I think this works better:

20km/h = 1L

40km/h = 2[1]L

60km/h = 3[2]L

80km/h = 4[3]L

100km/h = 5[4]L

... And so on, what do you think?

[ProfPotts]

It does seem a wee bit broken that a vehicle needs to hit a baseline at 160 kph to have even a chance of killing him outright...

Even a car used as a club by a Nova adds an extra 4 dice (beyond a normal punch) of damage to the attack - that's before the 'force' (Strength) element is even figured in.

We could start with our extra 4 dice damage from a Nova-swung car (5 from a truck) being based entirely on the extra mass the thing has, & use that as a base damage for that class of vehicle - using the 'full power swing' damage would be nice, but that presumes the car in question is wrecked too. That way a car going 80 kph has a chance to kill a baseline - still not entirely realistic, but a little better. Make those damage dice damage levels & it's a bit closer to 'real' lethality too - although it removes the 'luck' factor entirely.

Maybe make the damage a base (4 dice for a car), + 1 die of Bashing damage per 10 kph? Still doesn't seem right.

Falling 30 meters+ only does 10 dice Lethal - on an average roll an average baseline can survive that easily. A vehicle needs to be going 200 kph to have as much chance.

This is, IMHO, one of the parts of the damage system in the greatest need of revision. Ayre's suggestion is a pretty good one (damage levels are definitely a must). What I'd like to see is a universal damage system - where hitting the ground at a certain velocity after a fall has some kind of relation to being hit by a car at that velocity.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

The terminal velocity rules for 10L dice always seemed weak for me as well, TV for a human bieng, if I remember this right, is around 80km/h. Maybe keep the damage at 10 (total) but break it into levels and dice 6[4]L, 5[5]L, etc.

[ProfPotts]

Yeah - terminal velocity at 30 meters doesn't seem right either - that's, what, 2 to 3 seconds of falling (at 9.8 meters per second per second)? Let's not even get into the effects of drag, mass, etc. on TV (I still have nightmares about trying to figure out how much DMD should take from a TV fall ::wink - in the end I just gave up & went with the standard 10 L & half Soak).

Splitting damage dice pools for vehicle impacts & falls into half / half dice & levels seems like a pretty good (& simple) fix to me, but the whole system needs looking at. Good ol' Champions had a single damage scale for everything - you could relate the damage from a punch to the damage from a fall or impact (for example) with ease (whiched helped solve no end of problems that'd arise in games). Aberrant needs something similar, IMHO.

Maybe a scale relating to Str / Mega-Str? Base damage equals the Material Strength of what you impact / impacts you, speed adds levels of "Strength". Maybe 1 Str per 20 kph - that'd be 5 Str / damage dice at 100 kph, then a rapid increase after that: 5[5] at 120 kph, 5[10] at 140 kph, etc.? Still doesn't seem right though.

Knockback's another consideration. Using the (detailed) rules as they stand a car hitting an average Str 2 Might 0 pedestrian at 40 kph is lucky to knock him over. A strong baseline - with Str 5 Might 5 - could take a 200 kph impact & still not go anywhere!

At least using the rules as they stand the traffic police have an easy time of it - speeding violation? No problem, just step in front of the vehicle & hold out you hand - you'll stop him dead! ::tongue ::wink

Maybe impact / falling damage should all be levels, not dice, but the victim gets a roll of some sort to reduce that damage (to reflect 'glancing off' the car instead of being 'run down', for example)?

How about a base damage for the vehicle's mass (4 for a car, 5 for a truck), + 1 level per 10 kph (so a car impact at 40 kph is fatal to a baseline victim who is 'run down'). The victim gets an Athletics roll to reduce the damage - each three successes reduce the damage by 1 (equal to the roll to reduce falling damage).

I'm still not sure, & it's past midnight... ::sleeping I'll think about it further (&, please, you guys think about a solution too - or I'll go quietly nuts... ::wacko ).

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Yeah - terminal velocity at 30 meters doesn't seem right either - that's, what, 2 to 3 seconds of falling (at 9.8 meters per second per second)?

I think it is close to 30 meters, it really doesn't take that much to reach 80km/h when falling.

The victim gets an Athletics roll to reduce the damage - each three successes reduce the damage by 1 (equal to the roll to reduce falling damage).

I was thinking something very similar except I was going with 2 successes per bonus to soak. Blame Trinity for it as most of the soak boosting powers use this rule and I like it. Still the damage is a tough one to set, until we come up with a better one, I've decided to go with the rules I've posted above for vehicle damage (lol finally aplied to the vehicle and not the weapons and arms), for TV 6[4]L seems right for me.

[Gideon]

I was going to reply earlier, but I had to check a few things when I got home.

First off I decided to check all three core books to find variations. the only one I found was that in Adventure! its every 10 kph instead of the 20 kph in Aberrant.

Also I found NO Vehicular Damage section in Trinity at all (wierd).

I actually have a rough system based not from the Vehicle rules, but from the inconsistancies of the Flight and Hypermovement powers.

Here's Why:

When I was making a Flier character I wanted to figure out the shortest path to "Super-Fast" combat flight. I assumed that a clear power combo would arrise. It did but not as I envisioned... The way Hyperspeed messes with Flight's multiplier, it actually gives you variable speed progressions that don't make sense when you compare their damaging ability... I'll clarify.

Two novas going the same speed (say 56m) one is a pure Flight 4 the other is a Hybrid Flight 1 and Hypermovement 2. The first example does (Strength +3) + 8 Bashing damage, and the Hybrid only does (Strength +3) + 4 Bashing damage!

What gives? Same speed, effectively the same effect, but one will take you doen twice as quickly in an Aerial Slam. NOTE: both powers are level 2, both have a Quantum Minimm of 1.

So I worked out a weighted scale for movement up to 210 meters per turn (3 seconds), unfortunately it did not take into account the Vehicle system. I am currently working on trying to find a way to integrate them all for one speed/colision damage modifier table. i.e. Add base dice (Strength +3)B or 4L, ten add speed mod. from table. I have only started, though I already noted It would have to handle up to 833 meters per turn.

More soon.

Gideon

[Gideon]

Well its later... ::biggrin

Here are some of my insights on this...(they are limited and only a begining, I hope they inspire some thoughts.)

Aerial Slam: (Strength +3) +(2/dot in Flight) + (1/dot in Hypermovement(Flight)) Bashing

[NOTE: The second Table Aerial Slam Fixed Damage Table, only gives the values of Bashing dice without the (Strength +3).]

Here are the sample tables: F1-5 is Flight 1-5, H1-5 is Hypermovement(Flight) 1-5

      Speed Table (in meters)                  Aerial Slam Fixed Damage Table

XX  |  F01 |  F02 |  F03 |  F04 |  F05 |_          XX  |  F1 |  F2 |  F3 |  F4 |  F5 |_

H0  | 044 | 048 |  052 |  056 |  060 |_      H0  | 02 | 04 |  06 |  08 |  10 |_

H1  | 050 | 060 |  070 |  080 |  090 |_      H1  | 03 | 05 |  07 |  09 |  11 |_

H2  | 056 | 072 |  088 |  104 |  120 |_      H2  | 04 | 06 |  08 |  10 |  12 |_

H3  | 062 | 084 |  106 |  128 |  150 |_      H3  | 05 | 07 |  09 |  11 |  13 |_

H4  | 068 | 096 |  124 |  152 |  180 |_      H4  | 06 | 08 |  10 |  12 |  14 |_

H5  | 074 | 108 |  142 |  176 |  210 |_      H5  | 07 | 09 |  11 |  13 |  15 |_

Linear Speed Table for Aerial Slams

,,

            |  F01  |  F02  |  F01  |  F03  | F4/F1 | F5/F2 |  F01  |  F01  |  F03  |  F02  | F01  |  F04  |  F02  |  F03  |

            |  H00  | H00  |  H01  |  H00 | H0/H2| H0/H1|  H03  | H04  |  H01  |  H02 |  H05 |  H01 |  H03  |  H02  |

Meters: | 044  | 048  | 050  | 052 |  056  | 060  | 062  | 068  | 070  | 072  | 074 | 080  | 084  | 088  |

Dice:    |  002  |  004  |  003  |  006  |  8/4  |  10/5  |  005  |  006  |  007 |  006  |  007  |  009  |  007  |  008  |

            |  F05  |  F02  |  F04  |  F03  |  F02  |  F05  |  F03  |  F04  |  F03  |  F05  |  F04  |  F04  |  F05  |  F05  |

            |  H01 |  H04  |  H02  |  H03 |  H05  |  H02 |  H04  |  H03 |  H05  |  H03 |  H04  |  H05  |  H04 |  H05  |

Meters: | 090  | 096  | 104  | 106  | 108  | 120 | 124  | 128  | 142  | 150 | 152  | 176  | 180  | 210  |

Dice:    |  011  |  008  |  010  |  009  |  009  |  012 |  010  |  011  |  011  |  013  |  012 |  013  |  014  |  015  |

,,

And to compare Vehicles do damage at a rate of 1 Lethal die per 20 kph (as per Aberrant NOT Adventure's 10 kph) or (accepting the listed duration of a turn = 3 seconds) 16.666 meters per turn. The two Novas listed above moving at 56 meters per turn or (67.2 kph). If they were vehicles they would inflict 3Lethal. Don't even get started at the Terminal Velocity rles, which give you only 10 Lethal dice with a 1/2 Soak penalty. As opposed to our Novas, if they max both Hypermovement AND Flight will only generate 15 + (Strength +3) Bashing normal soak (note a min. of 19+) So A Vehicle with a base +4 Lethal and a speed mod of +15 L or 19 Lethal damage. I might also suggest that foor every die (or every 2 dice) over 10 could be converted to an automatic success. though we use the House Rule that the Armor of the vehicle acts as bonus auto successes, so the same car would be 19 [2] L when it hit... Much more lethal

::sleeping sorry for going on so long... ::tongue

So why all this ranting and raving?? Because I have worked out a variant rule for all speed related damage. It reduces some damage and increases others, but it is uniform and I find easier to impliment accross-the-board.

For Blokes moving under their own power there is no constant accelloration and this is what we are REALLY talking about, how fast you can accellorate your fist/head/foot/body at another object.

for novas and critters under their own power:

movement under 36 meters per action Str+3 only.

36-57m +2 Bashing 169-179m +9 Bashing

58-79m +3 Bashing 180-190m +10 Bashing

80-101m +4 Bashing 191-201m +11 Bashing

102-123m +5 Bashing 202-205m +12 Bashing

124-138m +6 Bashing 206-208m +13 Bashing

139-153m +7 Bashing 209m +14 Bashing

154-168m +8 Bashing 210+m +15 Bashing

For Vehicles we just added 4(car)/2(motorcycle)/6(small plane)... as its Strength + Armor as its auto damage.

We capped it at 210, since we did not play with Powers above 5, we basicly generated a curve where as you go faster it becomes possible to do more damage faster, for the sake of Aerial and Hyperspeed Slam. For the Strikes, we kept the standard scale since it was not a matter of movement as much as a matter of quickness of your blows. I can dig up our other tables...it takes a while to type them up for this format (crazy fonts... ::wacko )

ALSO

Terminal Velocity... You realize that you fall at a rate of 9.98 meters per second-squared. i.e. in the first second of falling you will cover 9.98 meters (near sea-level), in the 2nd second you will fall 19.96 meters (we have now covered 29.94 meters) in the third second you will accellorate to a velocity of 29.94 m/ss (we have covered ~59 meters) Now air friction will kick in and slow your descent a smidge. But still while such free falling will be very dangerous, it also means that if I turn my Flight off for one round, I will be at Terminal Velocity (Which is actually less than 59m/s and varies based upon your coeficient of friction (i.e. how much wind resistance your form generates) so it is fair to say that anyone who falls for more than one turn will be at Terminal Velocity.

Perhaps it doesn't matter since if I have Stamina of 5 and MEga-Stamina of 1 and a Eufiber of 5 (so a normal 8) I have an effective Soak of 4 plus my dice roles. So Worse case I get 6 Health Levels from falling ANY distance greater than 30 meters... so if Joe Normal is dropped from such a distance he could survive if my dice roles are bad...This is not acceptable, I just dropped him from my airplane 200 meters up. He really should die, instead this becomes a recreational stint for his whole family as thay all get cripled and live to brag. So I change t to [10] Letahl, yep 10 automatic successes at Lethal. Now he is guarranteed 10 Health Levels and he must soak at least 3 times to survive. Okay this is a little better, but my novas with Eufiber are only getting wounded (regardless of height)...

Sorry if this is TMI (Too Much Information) ::devilangel but since EON is going bye-bye I wanted to share the idea.

[madcat82]

How about this:

20 kph 2[1]L

40 kph 4[2]L

60 kph 8[4]L

80 kph 16[8]L

100 kph 24[16]L

120 kph 35[24]L

140 kph 55[35]L

160 kph 75[55]L

180 kph 100[75]L

I used 2^n for the first ones, but they incresed to fast for my taste. Say that you multiply by two for realy big vehicles and divide by two for smaller ones...

[ProfPotts]

Good stuff guys! ::thumbsup

I'd agree that since the various 'slam' moves are all based off the Tackle, then Vehicular Slams should really be also. I'd suggest that what's then needed is the 'Strength' equivalent of the vehicle in question, then any speed bonus to damage.

Since large & powerful vehicles tend to do more damage than smaller ones, even at low speeds (getting crushed against a wall by a JCB is worse than getting crushed against a wall by a motorcycle) an easy way to work out the vehicle's 'Strength' would be to simply take the Strength needed to lift the thing. So a standard car would have a Strength equivalent of Strength 5 / Mega-Strength 1.

So, getting crushed against a wall by a car would do 8[5] Bashing damage.

The speed bonus is a tough one, since the various Aerial & Hyperspeed slams are inconsistent (as pointed out by Gideon). Maybe a standard extra two dice for going faster than a human can (a similar bonus as that granted by Enhanced Movement), & +1 extra die per extra 25 kph (roughly the bonus granted by Flight in an Aerial Slam).

So, a car hitting a pedestrian at 100 kph would do something like 13[5] Bashing damage.

Whilst I agree in principle that a standard scale for damage / speed relations is in order, I can also see the problems that arise when you figure in Hyperspeed. If you do grant a straight +1 damage per 25 kph, then a Hyperspeed guy can do +20 damage per dot in the power (if he hits you at full whack). That's a bit of a game-balance nightmare.

One possible solution would be to place a cap on all such impact damage. Since the various slams indicate that the attacker takes half damage (full if the target isn't knocked back), then a reasonable cap would be double the attacker's own Soak + Health Levels - i.e. he can't do more damage than he can take himself from the slam - or the defender's total Soak + Health Levels, whichever is lower. So a vehicle with 8 Structural Levels & 2 Soak could inflict no more than 20 levels of damage from a slam (& is totalled in the process) - if it hits something tougher than itself. If it hits a standard pedestrian it takes a maximum of 10 levels of damage (8 HL + 2 Bashing Soak for the 'average' baseline), halved (for being the attacker) = 5 levels of damage.

As for Terminal Velocity - Novas can cause problems. Surface area & drag can adjust TV, but so can mass - a guy with Density Increase can make a really big crater when he hits (&, most likely, kill himself in the process). Trying to avoid complicated maths, is there a simple solution (that's still reasonable 'scientifically' accurate)?

[Asbjørn]

Whilst I agree in principle that a standard scale for damage / speed relations is in  order, I can also see the problems that arise when you figure in Hyperspeed. If you do grant a straight +1 damage per 25 kph, then a Hyperspeed guy can do +20 damage per dot in the power (if he hits you at full whack). That's a bit of a game-balance nightmare.

He'd still have to soak the same damage himself, though... Not many speedster type novas have that kind of soak. Mind you, it's still way off balance, but not as much as it would seem at first glance.

[ProfPotts]

Here's another thought on the subject - why is speed-based damage on a linear scale, but other damage (e.g. Strength-based) doesn't seem to be? An extra dice per x2 speed, or something, would seem to fit the overall game-logic better. ::confused

[Ayre el KaBeer]

If we're going to go too far into logic then none of this will work. I think this is how the developers saw it: A speedster (hyp 3) running at 1500km/h vs. a bullet fired from a riffle also travelling at 1500km/h that bullet does its 8 damage. The nova is much larger and heavier than the bullet but connects with a softer surface and much greater surface area spreading the damage of a hyper slam, damage = str +9 (hyp 3; str +3 +6). This seems about right for me, especially since there's such a thing as Mega-Strength, it's vehicles and TV I have a problem with.

But back to vehicles...

madcat82 "60 kph 8[4]L" is pretty much an automatic death for a baseline, with this much damage I'd consider making it bashing. By the way "180 kph 100[75]L" HOLY CRAP!!!

Damn my head hurt looking at that table.

[Alex Green]

How about this:

...

140 kph  55[35]L

160 kph  75[55]L

180 kph  100[75]L

According to one of the developers over on WW, a nuke is about 100 dice. (I would assume 50[50] explosion, but that is just me).

The lesson is that damage isn't a linear function.

Example: With M-Str, to get an extra [5], you have to double the strength used.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Example: With M-Str, to get an extra [5], you have to double the strength used.

I thought it was increased by ten, hence the going from 1ton lifting at Mega-Str 1 to 10tons at 2... hmmm then it goes 25, 50, 100, a minor discrepency but not that far out of whack.

[Alex Green]

OK, so you have to *at least* double the strength. That still means it isn't a linear function.

[madcat82]

Perhaps I went a bit overboard with the numbers :-), but everything abov 90kph is instant death to an unprotected baseline (based upon a swedish driving book I have anyway)... Heck, you have a chance to die upon being hit by a car driving in 30 (albeit a very small one)...

I dont know, perhaps if we turn to physics it might help. veleocity is v^2 times the mass of the object and divided by two. Now, rising from one healthlevel to the next is about reciving the double amount of damage. humm... Perhaps this then:

20 kph 4 [0]

40 kph 4 [2] (humen adults, counting on 7 healthlevels will survive)

60 kph 4 [4] (a baseline with 7 healthlevels got a fair chance at surviving)

80 kph 4 [5]

100 kph 4 [7] (instant kill)

120 kph 4 [9]

140 kph 4 [11]

160 kph 4 [12]

[Ayre el KaBeer]

20 kph 4 [0]

40 kph 4 [2] (humen adults, counting on 7 healthlevels will survive)

60 kph 4 [4] (a baseline with 7 healthlevels got a fair chance at surviving)

80 kph 4 [5]

100 kph 4 [7] (instant kill)

120 kph 4 [9]

140 kph 4 [11]

160 kph 4 [12]

There's just no pleasing me ::laugh , I like this far more, however 4[7] isn't an instant kill assume they have stam 3 it becomes 4[4] average roll of 2 success = 6L taken, but they'll be dead within half an hour due to bleeding, etc. For damage vs. novas though I'd up the number of rolled dice once you get to 80km/h, but that's just me.

[Bayne Antioc]

Why not make it momentum-based?

It's safe to assume that being hit by a Mack Truck moving at 200km/h is gonna hurt a HELL of a lot more that being hit my a 200km/h bee.

Momentum is mass times velocity. Someone else can do the math. The holidays have just started, and my brain needs a break from Physics.

[Finbar]

And now for the Incredible Jochim's Damage For Vehicles:

The basic idea is that velocity and mass have limits that apply, and that momentum should be applied somehow. Ergo, a shopping cart and a Scarab Strike Frigate hitting you at 5kph should only do 2d10 damage, but the frigate will do more damage at higher speeds than the shopping cart.

Also, I've based it on Bashing damage, as it's blunt force trauma doing the damage; this also gives more armor for the victim. Given the amounts of damage possible, this is fair...

1) Calculate Effective Strength needed to lift the vehicle. You will apply 2d10B per point of Strength per 10 kph (ie, at 50 kph, you can apply 5d10B). The Strength rating is the max. add you can get.

For big vehicles (anything over 2000 kg), stop normal Strength calculation at Str 20. Multiply Strength by the log of the tonnage (ie, 95,000 tons would get get x4, or 80d10B).

2) Figure 1d10B per 10 kph. Stop at 200 kph (20d10B; consider it a game balance issue). However, multiply by Mach Speed directly (Mach 5=100d10B), and by the square if VS (VS 3=3^3=9=180d10B).

3) Calculating Damage: Apply full dice for velocity, and one die of Strength per die of velocity damage, up to maximum. Thus, a Scarab Strike Frigate going at VS 4 would do:

(4^4=16, 16x20d10B=) 320d10B for velocity, and (35,000=4, so 80d10B), for a total of 400d10B (as 320>80).

However, at a mere 160 kph, it's 160/10=16d10B for velocity. However, as 16<80, you can apply 32d10B (2 per 10). The total is 48d10B.

PS: I may be using "log" inappropriately; it's been a few years. I just wanted to say 1 per power of 10 (4 would be 10,000 to 99,999, for example).

[Nullifier]

It seems like you're applying all the vehicle's momentum to damage, but this doesn't make sense unless the vehicle is stopped cold by the impact. Otherwise the amount of momentum transfered to the person getting hit would be only a small fraction of the vehicle's total momentum, calculated by the amount of speed lost in the impact. Of course, knockback damage would be added to that, which would push the damage total higher.

[madcat82]

There's just no pleasing me , I like this far more, however 4[7] isn't an instant kill assume they have stam 3 it becomes 4[4] average roll of 2 success = 6L taken, but they'll be dead within half an hour due to bleeding, etc. For damage vs. novas though I'd up the number of rolled dice once you get to 80km/h, but that's just me.

Hmm, that is correct... hmm, perhaps tweak the table a bit then.

20 kph 4 [0]

40 kph 4 [2] (humen adults, counting on 7 healthlevels will survive)

60 kph 4 [4] (a baseline with 7 healthlevels got a fair chance at surviving)

80 kph 4 [6]

100 kph 6 [8] (almost instant kill,)

120 kph 8 [10]

140 kph 10 [12]

160 kph 12 [14]

Better now Ayre?

On the other hand, i kind of like Profs ide with giving each vehicle a strength rating... it could be mixed with the current system for damage done by cars, trucks, motorcycles, shopingcarts, trains, airplanes, insainly fast novas, toilet seats, satelites moving at a high speed.

Then we get a system based both on speed and mass...

of course, this might have been stated befor...

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Hmm, that is correct... hmm, perhaps tweak the table a bit then.

20 kph 4 [0]

40 kph 4 [2] (humen adults, counting on 7 healthlevels will survive)

60 kph 4 [4] (a baseline with 7 healthlevels got a fair chance at surviving)

80 kph 4 [6]

100 kph 6 [8] (almost instant kill,)

120 kph 8 [10]

140 kph 10 [12]

160 kph 12 [14]

Better now Ayre?

Aside from uping the 80kph dice to 6, that works fine.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Why not make it momentum-based?

It's safe to assume that being hit by a Mack Truck moving at 200km/h is gonna hurt a HELL of a lot more that being hit my a 200km/h bee.

Momentum is mass times velocity. Someone else can do the math. The holidays have just started, and my brain needs a break from Physics.

Reason 1: Maths breaks brains ::tongue

Reason 2: lasyness, deciding on the mass of the vehicle and its contents (if any) and then doing the numbers just slows things down unless it was predetermined or the gm decides all vehicles of a certain type weigh the same.

I usually like to go for apropriate weights for different types of cars, trucks, plains, etc. for purposes of mega strength and telekinesis type effects. So if I was going to use momentum I'd have to sit down well in advance and write a fairly sizeable table so as not to slow the game down, I could do it but I'd rather not.

[Finbar]

Actually, Nullifier, the vehicle wouldn't be slowed all that much; a 35,000-ton vehicle going through a 100kg human won't really be slowed that much ::blush ...

However, if you wanted, you could apply a decelleration factor of (Soak/Damage Dice) to the objects speed; if the ram was completely soaked in that round, the object would be stopped. This would mean that a VS4-Strike Frigate could be stopped by 200 people (most of whom would die); at the least, this could be messy...

If you really wanted to complicate things, you could carry-over 1/4 of the slow-down to the next round, cumulative as long as the situation persisted.

FR

[Nullifier]

Actually, Finbar, that's my point exactly. After a certain point the total momentum of the vehicle doesn't really mean all that much as only a tiny fraction of that momentum is transfered to an person hit by the vehicle. Even wielded by a nova with mega-str, a 10metric ton truck only does a maximum of [25]+17d10B. Now, I'm not sure how much a Scrab Frigate weighs or how fast it travels (I don't own any of the Trinity books), but I'm pretty sure that if killing space-bourne novas was as simple as running them down with the things, it wouldn't be much of a game. In fact, I'm pretty sure one of two things would happen, either the skin of the Scarab would tear and the nova rip a hole through the middle of it (if it did less than the nova's total soak, or if the vehicle's soak was actually less than the nova's), or the nova would just get knocked forwards, accelerated to the spped the ship was moving and taking a maximum of around [30]+30dB. The only way the Scarab would do anywhere near 400d10B to anything is if it crashed into that thing and only that thing, and was stopped cold by it, an unlikely occurance, outside of things like planets, asteroids, moons, and relatively large and protected buildings.

[Gideon]

Well to better prepresent the amount of momentum you need to actually look at the mass and velocity of the struck victim. Their mass times their relative velocity to the vehicle the the amount of momentum they steal from the vehicle.

So a 100kg person struck by a truck weighing 2 metric tonnes at 100km/hr would incure 10,000W of momentum the Truck possessing 200,000W of momentumwould now have 190,000W of momentum. This also explains the power of a bullet...hmmm... ::devil ... okay I know my math is a little loose and free up above, but if you could deterime a coefficient of surface area to force of movement, we could calculate the piercing velocity of any object (nova or otherwise) when it collides with another object. As well as generate a maximum force any vehicle can take before receiving damage.

As long as the structural integrity can take that degree of decelleration from striking the other object and the victim's coefficient of surface area to Force was less than the integrity of the vehicle, you would know the maximum velocity your vehicle could collide with anything. Not practacle in game, but what a chart to show the players before you introduce an enemy speedster...

"Yeah, according to this chart, my 90-pound speedster could be taken out by a cardboard box at Mach 2... better invest in Body Armor or insurance"

[Reighnhell]

for vehicle collisions I am running a dirt-simple system based of vehicle mass and speed. Vehicles of a certain size inflict a base damage, with [1] added for each 10kph of velocity.

Vehicle Mass / Base Damage Dice

Less than 1000kg / 4

1000kg-2500kg / 6

2500kg-5000kg / 8

5000kg-10,000kg / 10

10,000kg-20,000kg / 12

20,000kg-40,000kg / 14

40,000kg-80,000kg / 16

80,000kg + / 18

thus far it is working fine.

[Shopping Mal]

That sounds good. Real enough for the game, but not so complex as to take up too much time.

The real physics behind this stuff is horribly complex and can take minutes to work out. It involves conservation on momentum, the working out of momentum, energy loss and so forth.

Reignhell is onto something, I think.

[Arcanum_V]

I think I'll use Reighnhell's system. It's not realistic, but it's much, much simpler.

When something like all this came up in my Adventure! game involving a forklift, a sport pick-up, and an NPC, I believe my answer to "how much damage does he take?" was "enough to take him out of combat." Then the forklift's tines sparked the pick-up's gas tank and the whole warehouse burst into flames and things got a lot more complicated. ::biggrin

Now. . . how much damage does a kuei-jin take if someone lfying using a rocket jetpack grabs her and drags her face across the front of a city block? ::crazy

[Finbar]

Nullifier: If it helps, the Scarab Strike Frigate weighs 35K tons, with a maximum speed of VS 4 (fast enough to go from the Earth to Moon in 30 minutes).

I figured that it should be enough to ram most novas and keep on going. Especially as most novas with any kind of offensive power could take it no problem ::crazy ... I was just trying to keep things semi-balanced.; after all, a Strike Frigate only has 12 HL's, and 6[15] armor (a nova with MegaSTR will still do a lot of damage (at least 5d10[4] each hit). Keep in mind that the Frigate can still be dodged, nailed before impact, and suffers penalties for going after such a small target.

In essence, I like the possibility of a frigate running over a nova, but I don't see it as a strong possibility...

Side Note: If I use Reignhell's method, that Strike frigate would do several thousand points of damage based solely on kph...Ouch!

FR

[Reighnhell]

I usually stop adding damage when the speed based damage wanders up to around [100]. Perhaps it should be [1] for each 20kph..hmmm...

[knave]

Guys - before you go too damage crq (god damn french keyboqrd1) crazy you might want to consider that trinity era tactical nukes only do something like 43 damage.

[metaphysician]

According to one of the developers over on WW, a nuke is about 100 dice. (I would assume 50[50] explosion, but that is just me).

The lesson is that damage isn't a linear function.

Example: With M-Str, to get an extra [5], you have to double the strength used.

Weird, the data in Trinity seems to contradict this. The nukes used on antiship missiles and for heavy anti-aberrant vehicle weapons are 'only' 18[30]. Even assuming those are only kiloton warheads ( which they probably are ), doubling the overall damage is way out of whack with the typical damage curve. Damage level doubled is the difference between a a 30mm cannon and a 120mm tank gun, or a mortar and a 155mm howitzer.

( not to mention the illogic of only equipping your space capital ships with kiloton micronukes when you know you occasionally have to fight spaceborn aberrants. . . )

[Alex Green]

( not to mention the illogic of only equipping your space capital ships with kiloton micronukes when you know you occasionally have to fight spaceborn aberrants. . . )

If a little nuke doesn't do it, then you don't want them to take over the ship if you are holding BIG nukes.

Don't build things you don't want turned against you... and even in the game of nuclear terrorism, there is a difference between a little nuke and a big one.

[metaphysician]

The thing is, the Aberrants already kind of have the ability to do that level of destruction. Combine that with a decent set of self-destruct protocols, and the risk can be reduced significantly.

I'd judge the risk of being unable to significantly hurt the incoming aberrant before he smashes your ship, and flies on to destroy something you were really hoping to protect, as greater.

[Alex Green]

The thing is, the Aberrants already kind of have the ability to do that level of destruction. Combine that with a decent set of self-destruct protocols, and the risk can be reduced significantly.

Warp and Cyber-K are common powers. Q-Bolt + Mastery is not.

And this also ignores that global politics and even global terrorism is a multi-factional game, not just a "abbies vs. baselines". A single traitor with 2 dozen small nukes can't attempt to take over the planet. Give him 2 dozen BIG nukes and he becomes a larger problem.