Aberrant: In the Beginning - Table Talk- In the Beginning

[Dawn OOC]

I don't know how you do it Courier, but you often seem to invoke that reaction from me with your PCs... usually without meaning for them to come off that way. At least you're consistant.

[SalmonMax]

*raises hand*

Me too! Only for me it's less, "you're a bastard" and more, "You're pure evil."

()

[Titan]

Hey guys, I am continuing to have troubles. When I am able to get online, it is for a moment or ten at a time. What I will do is prepare the story offline, and post it when I am able. During the day, I am at work and while I can get online, it is not very conducive to writing long posts. That said, I will absolutely get Pangaea, Rich, and Fahrenheit posts up today. I can't wait to get back to my house. Thanks again for your patience.

[Stargaizer]

No worries Titan. And thanks for the updates (it helps). Glad you'll be getting back to your house soon.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: Stargaizer

No worries Titan. And thanks for the updates (it helps). Glad you'll be getting back to your house soon.

I'll second that.

Originally Posted By: SalmonMax

Me too! Only for me it's less, "you're a bastard" and more, "You're pure evil." ()

Not yet... but I admit Rich took a dark turn when he decided to go into politics.

Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC

I don't know how you do it Courier, but you often seem to invoke that reaction from me with your PCs... usually without meaning for them to come off that way. At least you're consistant.

I think you're rushing to judgement with Rich. An off hand statement is less than an action, an attempt, or even an intention. Rich views himself as a good man (and I view him as such), he's even been looking for ways to not kill Bang, but I fully admit he's going to have to take care that staring into the abyss doesn't change him for the worse.

[Dawn OOC]

I'm not rushing to judge. People evaulate each other all the time based on their actions/statements of the moment, combined with their actions/statements of the past. "A person's relationship with you is the sum of all your experiences with them, not the last one." I've paraphrased that, and I don't remember the source, sadly. So I was pretty neutral about Rich until I read his intention to let someone's family member die over a failure to curry Rich's favor in the political arena. That's pretty damned callous and it pushed me into the negative. It was the first thing that had ever really gotten a reaction out of me. If he acts and speaks more positively, then that will change.

Please remember that this is all my opinion. Play him how you wish; so long as the story is good, and he's actually the way you want him to be, awesome. Max and I will continue to have opinions about him, just as you'll have opinions about Juno and Fang. It's all good.

[SalmonMax]

Hee...yeah, my perception of Rich was that he was an opportunist. And I was asking myself what he'd do if he came across nuclear waste in, say, China or something, that the government wasn't willing to pay him to clean up. Would he let the people living there suffer, like their government? Or would he clean it anyway, since it costs him very little to do so, but might undermine him when he triest to charge for the next cleanup?

But then he was saying he'd blackmail Congressmen using the lives of their families...and that kind of took the 'question' out of it all.

[Stargaizer]

Voltage, I'm pretty sure that all of the quaking has stopped. Just in case it would make a difference in your post.

[Nathan Dayes]

Question, who all is seeing Joe lifting this man up with air currents? For example, do Nathan, Jay and Wei Fang see it?

[Titan]

If you are outside you do, but if not, then not.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: SalmonMax

...saying he'd blackmail Congressmen using the lives of their families...and that kind of took the 'question' out of it all.

Context is everything.

The year is 1998 and during the last four years the world has seen TWO countries end up in genocidal race wars though the misuse of politics at a federal level. Rwanda did it in 1994, Yugoslavia in 1995. Slobodan Milošević doesn't appear to have been a racist personally, he just used the issue to get (re)elected and either didn't know or didn't care that it would make a European country go up in flames.

With that as the background, is it really unethical to tell a Slobodan-clone that you'll be glad to help him, but after his resignation? THAT is exactly the issue Rich is talking about, and the situation he's trying to avoid.

Originally Posted By: SalmonMax

Hee...yeah, my perception of Rich was that he was an opportunist. And I was asking myself what he'd do if he came across nuclear waste in, say, China or something, that the government wasn't willing to pay him to clean up. Would he let the people living there suffer, like their government? Or would he clean it anyway, since it costs him very little to do so, but might undermine him when he triest to charge for the next cleanup?

Again, it depends on the context, and whether in Rich's opinion he'd be helping the situation or not... but if he refuses to get involved it won't because of money. International relations, sovereignty, and whether or not he'd be encouraging other countries to misuse their own people are much more serious issues. 'Helping someone' is a good thing, but not if the larger context is you're also helping North Korea manage it's atomic weapons program.

He's not going to do anything to help (or cover up) Iran's/Iraq's/North Korea's nuclear programs, no matter how many of their own people they claim he'd be "helping" and no matter how much they offer to pay him. Where this "clean up nuke waste for humanitarian good" issue is likely to come up isn't with China, it's with the various failed states in Africa. Some of them probably have nuke dumps where the local king was bribed to allow the dump, basically without knowing or caring what he was doing. Would he clean it up? Sure... but he'd try very hard to do so at the same time the people involved either get arrested or lose their jobs.

[Dawn OOC]

That's fine, Courier. I think the real issue here is that Rich believes that in the Slobodan case that the ends justify the means. By that, it's ok to tell Slobodan that you'll heal his daughter if he resigns and allows free elections. I don't believe that is morally correct, and I don't think Max does either. If you use a man's family against him, you're both evil assholes; his being an asshole doesn't change that you're being one in return.

Again, this is all just my opinion, play Rich as you will.

[Titan]

I have to disagree. There are billions of people in the world, and no matter how many you heal, there will be millions that will not be healed. Does that make you an evil asshole? Of course not. By the same token, evil assholes and their kids don't make it on the very small, limited list of people that Rich can get to. I suspect any of us would do the same. "I can only heal so many, why in the world would I fly halfway around the world to heal THAT guy's kid?" That being said, I could see the exact same decision being made as part of an evil agenda. I think Dawn and Max have landed on the side of the evil agenda, while Rich is firmly on the other side. I suppose both views are valid, but the real question is what Rich is thinking when he makes that decision, which as of yet, he has not.

[Dawn OOC]

I'd still heal the kid. Why? Because the kid shouldn't die for a father's sins. Maybe his own, but not because his dad is Slobodan.

Keep in mind, we didn't start this conversation with the idea that Rich would deny someone truly guilty of killing billions or being an evil dictator. We started this conversation based on the fact that Rich said he wanted to use his healing power as a weapon against a Senator who had pissed him off. All the guy did, in this theoritical statement, was create a negative emotional relationship with Rich. And that's why I now have a negative emotional relationship with Rich.

[SalmonMax]

Arr...by no means do I mean to imply that not healing someone constitutes a sin on Rich's part. What I meant to imply was that intentionally deciding not to heal someone as part of an attempt to coerce them to do something for you...that feels pretty bad.

I won't say it's impossible to carefully construct a scenario where the mitigating circumstances make it less bad, or even not bad. But I will say that you would have to construct such a scenario in very improbable terms.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC

I'd still heal the kid. Why? Because the kid shouldn't die for a father's sins. Maybe his own, but not because his dad is Slobodan... We started this conversation based on the fact that Rich said he wanted to use his healing power as a weapon against a Senator who had pissed him off. All the guy did, in this theoritical statement, was create a negative emotional relationship with Rich....

Rich doesn't anger easily. At the moment the two people on his list are Bang and the guy who drove his car into Rich's family. That guy is in the same 'coma-care' building Em was in, and Rich isn't going to be pulling him out. I can't recall whether he's said that to himself.

But at the same time, he also didn't pull out the woman in the bed next to Em's. One assumes she's never done anything to him or his.

Originally Posted By: SalmonMax

What I meant to imply was that intentionally deciding not to heal someone as part of an attempt to coerce them to do something for you...that feels pretty bad.

Welcome to Washington. There are other ways to deal with these sorts of situations... but the thing I'm trying to point out is it's pretty bad already if we've reached that point.

Originally Posted By: SalmonMax

I won't say it's impossible to carefully construct a scenario where the mitigating circumstances make it less bad, or even not bad. But I will say that you would have to construct such a scenario in very improbable terms.

Improbable? This kind of thing is already in the core book. Look up why Geryon decided to pop that (Tampa?) mayor's head (there are other examples too). It's also in our future history.

[Grimm]

Max isn't saying that someone behaving in such a way is improbable, C. What he, and Dawn, have been saying is that for someone to behave that way is them acting like a high-handed, bullying douchebag according to conventional morality in most parts of the world. It might be effective, it might be smart leverage, but anyone who employs that kind of tactic loses the moral high ground.

A moral being does not hold the life of someone's kid over their heads in order to effect change of behaviour. It might not involve bombs and guns, but when you're doing it to effect political change that falls under the textbook definition of terrorism.

Geryon marching into Tampa and playing pimple-pop with Mayor Rupert's head, then smashing his way out through a bunch of cops was a demonstration of power and political intent. It was also terrorism: "Don't be like this guy and attempt to oppress or restrict my people, or this will happen again and you won't be able to stop it" was the very clear message.

What it boils down to is ends justifying means. And those who employ intimidation tactics, whether independant guerillas or First World governments, always claim that the end justifies the means. That's usually why such people are considered to be moral garbage by those of us that like to believe we're civilised.

So yes, Rich can say "It was the best way to head off a disaster." He can say "Look how things would have turned out." He can even claim that "I did what I had to do." But he can't really tell others that he did the "right" thing by any stretch of the imagination.

[Fahrenheit]

Sorry - I had a post for you Courier but my browser ate it - I will have something up by tomorrow in Rival's.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: Voltage

Geryon marching into Tampa and playing pimple-pop with Mayor Rupert's head, then smashing his way out through a bunch of cops was a demonstration of power and political intent. It was also terrorism: "Don't be like this guy and attempt to oppress or restrict my people, or this will happen again and you won't be able to stop it" was the very clear message.

Sure, very much agreed.

Originally Posted By: Voltage

So yes, Rich can say "It was the best way to head off a disaster." He can say "Look how things would have turned out." He can even claim that "I did what I had to do." But he can't really tell others that he did the "right" thing by any stretch of the imagination.

So instead Rich should treat the kid (who we're assuming he's never met) like he would 99+% of the people who want/ask for it... and do nothing?

[Grimm]

Yes. Better that than a hamfisted and frankly evil attempt at coercion on the kids father.

[Dawn OOC]

I'm with Voltage on this one. The kid did nothing wrong and punishing him or her because their father "pissed [Rich] off" makes Rich scum. Even seriously considering that as an option - not the action, just the willingness to do that - shows he's amoral to the reader.

[Katalyst]

To something totally off the current topic, I wanted to ask if we pick up an extra for a power does it stay active all the time or can we use it for when a situation calls for it? I thought there was something in the house rules about this but I couldn't find it.

[Titan]

Extras are just that, extra. If you have a Quantum Blast with the extra 'area effect', it does not mean that every quantum blast you use blows up a city block. Even if the writers did intend that, which I can't believe, they also gave rules for 'pulling' a power, which would be applicable. In short, no, you can choose when to apply the extra.

[Titan]

Also, everyone may feel free to have any opinion that they wish about each others character, and discuss it if they so desire, and Courier probably has a thicker skin than most, so is unbothered by criticism, but I think that there are those who would be bothered by the line this conversation has taken, sooo...

Anyone who wishes to continue discussing the morality of Rich, or lack thereof, may take it into Private Messages. I do not feel that it is appropriate any longer in this thread. We've all had our say.

[Justin OOC]

wow someone who plays it like I always thought it should go.

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: Titan

Anyone who wishes to continue discussing the morality of Rich, or lack thereof, may take it into Private Messages. I do not feel that it is appropriate any longer in this thread. We've all had our say.

Fair enough, Titan. I just wanted to make sure that anyone bothered by the conversation understands that those are my feelings toward the character, not the player. Two very different things.

[Titan]

Still struggling with domestic issues. The landlord has installed air filtration systems in the house to mitigate the fumes. The oil company has billed me $860 for the luxury of coming out to look at the spill they caused. We are continuing to bunk at my in-laws, which is awesome. But the end is in sight. Thank you for your continued patience, I will attempt to get some sort of postage up in the next day or so.

[Courier]

Don't worry, family comes first.

[Titan]

Dawn - Apparently 'Mnemosyne' is a Drug in A New Flesh. What are the chances?

[Dawn OOC]

T - just goes to show you its a good name.

[Titan]

Ok, we are moved back into our house, which only smells faintly of gasoline. Yay. But, it does mean that I have interwebs when I am not at work, and am able to resume my Storytelling. Yay! In addition, I have had some ideas about where to go from here, and I'm really excited to get started on them.

As I predicted, I am happy to announce that I find Aberrant - The New Flesh to be of a quality that I will allow it to be canon for our purposes. Some of it (most of it) won't be available anytime soon, unless some bright boy gets on it. The rest of it, I give you license to freely use.

[SalmonMax]

Yay!

As a primarily physical nova, Juno will benefit greatly. The new bodymods are especially nice, since Shapeshift can easily emulate them.

[Dawn OOC]

Titan, awesome to hear! Glad you're back in your house.

[Katalyst]

Glad to hear that your back home! Also good to know that New Flesh is available for use.

[Stargaizer]

Ditto and ditto. Welcome back Titan, and glad to hear all the good news.

[Titan]

I think that the time has come to take a hiatus from ItB. As it stands now, the story isn't coming together. This is my responsibility, and I have failed to make it cohesive. I wanted to, but it's not working. So, I'm going to put ItB on the inactive list. Thank you all for your participation, and I am glad to have re-integrated into this community. Though this game did not achieve the success that it had previously, I will always remember it fondly, as I hope you will. This is not a good-bye, but merely a change in focus. Some will be surprised, most will be sad, but I think many will be relieved. It sucks to have something that you care about and want to be good to... not. So, we'll try again another time. I'll see you around the boards.

[Stargaizer]

But, but, but....

*shocked/surprised/dismayed look*

But we just started... we were just getting things going...

I'll be honest about two things. 1) I don't think the game has been going long enough to say whether or not the story is coming together or not (less than 1 day IC).

2) If you truly feel that way, I'll accept it, but I will never believe that ItB is dead, and I will always be ready to jump back in.

[Charlotte]

This is surprising. I thought it was going along nicely.

Still, I understand. If you change your mind, let us know.

[Dawn OOC]

Ditto what was said above. It's your call Titan, and we'll miss having ItB, but if this is what you have to do, then that's that. Thanks for trying again.

[Courier]

At the risk of repeating what was said,

Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC

Ditto what was said above. It's your call Titan, and we'll miss having ItB, but if this is what you have to do, then that's that. Thanks for trying again.

Ditto.