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Aberrant: 200X - Weigh In on This Fucking Issue, Dammit!

Seph OOC

By Seph OOC,
in 200X

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Seph OOC Community Regular

Seph OOC

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2010 migration: yes, no? Conditional?

Arguments for:

-Help ease the "Cast of Thousands!" strain on 2010 forum.

-Allow characters who would like to interact with the 2008 cast to do so.

-Mithril and LiberTeen might exist in the same place. Think about that for a second, you fucking perverts.

-

Originally Posted By: Michael McGee[/quote
divis.png "It's very simple, Secretary-General. Either you grant my people an independent nova-led nation, or I will see to it that come tomorrow, the sun will come up in San Francisco Bay. IN San Francisco Bay."

b-rock.png "We can't raise that kind of money in time!"

divis.png "I'm not asking for money, Secretary-General."

b-rock.png "Oh. Sorry, I got you mixed up with the guy on the other line."

IN A WORLD, WHERE NOVAS, ARE KINGS...

b-rock.png "Get me Directive C3I. Tell them to put together contingency plan Echo Gemini."

IN A TIME, WHEN THE WORLD HANGS BY A THREAD...

b-rock.png "How do you stop an out of control nova?"

william.png "With two of them."

(INSERT THAT EPIC MUSIC YOU HEARD IN 40% OF THE MOVIE TRAILERS LAST YEAR)

william.png "Gerad, for this operation, you'll be working with one of our up-and-comers."

machina.png "Commander, come on. This guy's young enough to have squirted out my dick yesterday - "

nathan-dayes-tektek.png "I'm surprised you can still chub up at your age."

machina.png "Heh. I like your style, kid."

WHEN YOUR LIFE IS NO LONGER YOUR OWN...

fernus.png "DIEDIE PAINPAIN KILLMURDERKILLFUCK"

nathan-dayes-tektek.png "Gerad! Get down! Get - "

sfx.png

machina-fernus.png "Nice powers, tardfart."

nathan-dayes-fenus.png "... that's MY line."

WHEN EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS WRONG...

machina.png "Dayes! IntCell Teabag is compromised! Do not open the drop! Do not - "

nathan-dayes-tektek.png "Sorry, wait, IntCell Teabag?"

machina.png "It's British."

WHEN ONE DIRECTIVE ATTACK DOG JUST ISN'T ENOUGH...

divis.png "They sent you two? YOU two? All you can ever be, is as good as I am. How do you plan to prevail?"

nathan-dayes-tektek.png "By being twice the bastard you are. That's Gerad's gun up your ass."

machina.png "Nobody fucks with the Jesus!"

IT'S TIME TO SEND...

boom-2.jpg

boom-1.jpg

boom-3.jpg

eg-logo.png

SUMMER 2008

-Because I said pretty please?

Arguments against:

-Fuck you, there are no arguments against, just throw down your fucking support so we can get on with it, already.

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Seph OOC Community Regular

Seph OOC

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Originally Posted By: The White Rat
No. It violates the charter of 2010.


Well, dude, if you're going to split fucking hairs, I will show you just how wrong you are, Mr. Wrongy McWrongenstein:
Originally Posted By: The Charter
Section 1, Clause 6 – Characters shall not be direct copies nor substantial copies of characters already found within other sections of the N!Prime site.


The emphasis is mine, and I believe it underscores how your assertion falls flat. 2010 characters brought over to 2008 wouldn't be copies: they'd still be the originals, the 2008 characters would be the copies, and the charter outlines no specific ban on copies of 2010 characters existing elsewhere. Even if you manage to law-fu your way around that, I'll point out that the charter stipulates that the characters cannot be copies of characters already found within other sections of the N!Prime site. The 2008 forum, being a new intellectual property and a new addition to this site, doesn't fall within the compass of the above stipulation.

Besides, if any such 2010 character made a one-way exodus to 2008, there would be no "copy": it would be one character leaving a forum entirely and being created in another.
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Seph OOC Community Regular

Seph OOC

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Originally Posted By: The White Rat
So it is not enough that you guys have 2008. Now you want 2010. What's next, 2018?

I am beginning to suspect, that all of this is just a clever coup to take over all the boards.


Low blow, man. I rebuffed you with a fucking righteously logical and rational response, and you're going to come at me with some tinfoil hat nonsense? Seriously, man.

Let's think about this: the only one who ever brought up shutting down the 2010 board - which I still advocate, by the way - was me, who came into all this eight days after it started and was opposed to it from the first gasp. Now you think I'm part of some vast conspiracy to shut down the other forums? Why? Not why would you think that, but why the shit would I do that? I really don't have anything to gain by other boards being shut down.

You're being silly, dude. If you're opposed to the idea, you don't have to rationalize it, just say "I don't like the idea, I say fuck you and fuck your idea". That's cool. But chill out on the sophistry: you don't need a good argument, there's no need to manufacture one.
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Fortune's Son Proficient

Fortune's Son

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Originally Posted By: The White Rat
So it is not enough that you guys have 2008. Now you want 2010. What's next, 2018?


You think too little of my ambitions. Shock troopers armed with solar weapons and paradox charges disguised as strawberry cupcakes have already been deployed to the Umbral Realms. Those foolish mages are suckers for sweets. Clever data mining schemes have determined the weaknesses of the Shadowrun defenses. The bombing will commence shortly.

It will be mine. It will all be mine!

MuhWAHAHAAHAHAHA!

...

Ahem.

There is no conspiracy.

Really.

Fnord.
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The White Rat Rising Star

The White Rat

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I can throw that logic back at you.

Originally Posted By: Charter
Section 1, Clause 3 – Events in the OpNet – 2008 Board and Fiction areas shall not contradict events found within the “Aeonverse” timeline as presented within the approved materials as well as the events found within the Adventure! and Trinity books published only by White Wolf.

Since current characters in the 2010 Aeonverse were created using different rules, and have posted in a Canon setting, exporting them will violate this clause. Why? Because their posts in 2010 have already become Canon. You can't just 'write them out of existence' from 2010.

Originally Posted By: Charter
Section 1, Clause 4 – Characters shall be limited to no more than ten (10) points in flaws.

You need to remake all the characters you export, because they violate the rules of 2008. They have bonus points due to flaws. So in essence, you can't export them to a forum in which they are in violation.

Originally Posted By: Seph OOC
The 2008 forum, being a new intellectual property and a new addition to this site, doesn't fall within the compass of the above stipulation.

So, if something is 'new intellectual property' and 'a new addition to the site', it has the right to violate other intellectual property.

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Seph OOC Community Regular

Seph OOC

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Originally Posted By: The White Rat
I can throw that logic back at you.


Better.

Originally Posted By: The White Rat
Since current characters in the 2010 Aeonverse were created using different rules, and have posted in a Canon setting, exporting them will violate this clause. Why? Because their posts in 2010 have already become Canon. You can't just 'write them out of existence' from 2010.


A character existing in two separate timelines - which have already been delineated as totally non-overlapping magesterium, ie no travel between them - isn't a contradiction, though. It just means two different versions of the same character exist in separate universes, and since the character existing somewhere after existing first in 2010 doesn't violate the charter as it's worded, that's not a problem.

Originally Posted By: The White Rat
You need to remake all the characters you export, because they violate the rules of 2008. They have bonus points due to flaws. So in essence, you can't export them to a forum in which they are in violation.


All that means is that any characters so brought over would have to be marginally tweaked or re-tooled. That's the case with every character that isn't new to N! Prime altogether, so I don't really see how that's a problem.

Originally Posted By: The White Rat
So, if something is 'new intellectual property' and 'a new addition to the site', it has the right to violate other intellectual property.


Hey, don't ask me, man, I'm not the lawyer who wrote the thing up. My point is that by the word of the charter, it's not a problem, and the spirit of the charter is up for interpretation by the people who abide under it, which is why this topic exists.
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Velvet Proficient

Velvet

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If they're separate timelines, and people want to import one of their characters from the other settings, I say let them. As long as all of them are made/remade according to the rules for this new section, why does it matter? No one's "stealing" players or characters- if people would rather participate in the old forums, that's fine. If they'd rather play in the new one, that's great, too. If they want to play in all of them... Well, I'm sure you get the drift. It's a matter of personal preference, and I don't think any of us will participate in anything that doesn't suit us.

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The White Rat Rising Star

The White Rat

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,,
Originally Posted By: Seph OOC
It just means two different versions of the same character exist in separate universes, and since the character existing somewhere after existing first in 2010 doesn't violate the charter as it's worded, that's not a problem.,,

Whether 2008 was created before or after, if they exist in 2008, their counterparts in 2010 would be in violation of Section 1, clause 6.

Since the 2010 characters are now identical to those in 2008, they would need to be removed. Which can't be done due to canon.

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Charlotte Mentor

Charlotte

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Originally Posted By: Seph OOC

-Mithril, Pew Pew Pew, Knockout and LiberTeen might exist in the same place. Think about that for a second, you fucking perverts.


Fixed.

Crossovers with Machina notwithstanding, I see both sides of the argument. While yes, technically it's not against the letter of the charter, you could argue it's against its spirit. The rule was put in there to prevent there from being multiple versions of the same character running around, and it was targeted at 2018 and meant to give 2010 its own unique feel. I remember being around for its discussion of intent, if not its precise wording. Nuking it over a technicality of phrase doesn't seem forthright.

But on the other hand, I don't think a player should be punished because this forum sprung up after they came up with the idea and plugged it into 2010, which has been a more active forum for a while now. There were times I wish I could bring Nathan into 2018 (imagine Dying Thunder with the OMEN taken out and ol' firecrotch filling its place.) (And there were times I wish I could bring KO into 2010, but that's neither here nor there.)

I think we ought to wait and see. It's a lot easier to parachute a character into 200X than it is to yank them out and say that they never were there. We don't know how 200X will shake out, nor how 2010 will be affected. We can guess, even make educated guesses, but that's all they would be. We have a stable of old characters going back ten years and we can create new ones as well - we won't be hurting for a PC base in 200X. I propose that in a few months we look at the situation and let the people of 2010 decide. The charter can be modified, I think. If we decide that rule's got to go, then out it can go, but I think it's best to wait until we have a better idea of the ramifications of such an act.

For the record, glad you liked the skit, Machina.

And for another record... once 200X gets going, one thing I'd like to do is have Crossover Month. Like the fiction contests, with the theme being a crossover of sorts between boards, 2018, 2010, 200X, the PBPs, etc. in any combination. Treat it as "initially noncanon, potentially canon" - if people really groove on it then you'll have won a few converts. Nothing wins hearts and minds like proof of concept.
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Seph OOC Community Regular

Seph OOC

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Originally Posted By: The White Rat
Whether 2008 was created before or after, if they exist in 2008, their counterparts in 2010 would be in violation of Section 1, clause 6.

Since the 2010 characters are now identical to those in 2008, they would need to be removed. Which can't be done due to canon.


So kill the 2010 character and bob's your uncle. Only one version of the character existing at a time, with no overlap.

OR WAS THAT YOUR PLAN ALL ALONG!? I KNEW IT!! YOU JUST WANTED TO PAINT ME INTO THIS CORNER SO I'D HAVE TO KILL 2010 CHARACTERS TO MOVE THEM OVER AND EMPTY OUT THAT FORUM! GODDAMN, THAT'S FUCKING BRILLIANTLY SNEAKY! THAT'S SOME MORIARTY SHIT RIGHT THERE!

Rat, man. You are taking the minutiae of this discussion - and the 2010 charter - way too seriously. If people choose to opt out of 2010 to bring a character in or even play a 2008 version of one of their active 2010 characters, I don't see any worthwhile reason to stop them. I'll go one better: I won't stop them. But that's only one of three Mods.
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Velvet Proficient

Velvet

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As stated, the Charter requires only that the characters not be created as duplicates of characters which already existed in other forums.

If they're created in this new area, the 2010 (formerly 2008) characters would still not be in violation of the Charter, because they were not copies of existing characters.

Nothing has to be removed, as far as I can tell, and I was around for the debate about that section's creation, too. I don't see a conflict, especially if the guidelines for the new section state explicitly that the timelines are separate and such imports are acceptable.

Oh, and McGee's post? I agree completely.

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Charlotte Mentor

Charlotte

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Originally Posted By: Nova OOC
Originally Posted By: Michael McGee
Originally Posted By: Seph OOC

-Mithril, Pew Pew Pew, Knockout and LiberTeen might exist in the same place. Think about that for a second, you fucking perverts.


Fixed.

Pew Pew Pew is still quite chaste.


So is Knockout. Just because I'm on a diet doesn't mean I can't look at the menu. laugh
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Lou Anne Burgess Rising Star

Lou Anne Burgess

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I vote No

Regardless of specific language in the charter, 2008 was designed to be its own sandbox. That was the reason for the charter and everything else being so strict. It was the low power alternative.

Further, to allow 2008 characters into 2008' just waters down the intent of 2008' from what it is supposed to be to be even closer to the way I preceive it.

2008' is for 2018 ports or new people. 2008 is as Plato said "itself by itself solely..."

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Fortune's Son Proficient

Fortune's Son

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By the same token, if an existing player wants to cross the veil with a character because that's where the fun is then I am not going to tell them no. If that meets with the approval of most, as far as history they can have whatever they can shoehorn into the structure of 200X.

And I guess I should figure out who Liberteen is.

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Lou Anne Burgess Rising Star

Lou Anne Burgess

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Yes.

in a way.

AU is for Liberteen or anyone else escaping from the prison of 2008 to have way to intarract with 2008' without being imported into 2008'. I guess you could consider a 2008 & 2008' crossover AU fiction a 2008''.

If you want to know who Liberteen is, you'll have to brave the wilds of the 2008 forum. (better known now as the 2010 forum)

Of course that assumes that there will be [AU] fiction in 2008'.

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Warren Verona Mentor

Warren Verona

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There you go. The characters are not the same. The clause is specific:

Quote:
Section 1, Clause 6 – Characters shall not be direct copies nor substantial copies of characters already found within other sections of the N!Prime site.

The characters in 2008 are originals.

Hence, any character modeled in the future off their likeness is (by definition) the direct copy or substantial copy. No matter how many forums you make them in they will be the copies. The 2008 character will always be the original.

If I create Solstice for 200X then Solstice 200X is a substantial copy for use in 200X, while the Solstice in 2008 is, and always will be the original. What the clause does state by its own wording is that I could not bring Revenant into 2008 because he is an original character created in 2018 and would thus be defined as a substantial copy of a character imported into 2008, therefore violating the clause.

Had the clause not used the word 'copy' and used the phrase '2008 characters may not be used in other forums section on N!Prime with out the AU tag, nor may character from other forums be imported into 2008' or something close then the Charter might have argument.

Put the baby to bed. If the charter is the only thing standing in the way then I'd say the battle is in favor of allowing imported characters.

Now, my personal opinions of the matter:

I don't care.

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Nova OOC Community Regular

Nova OOC

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Originally Posted By: Ashnod
Question: If we are importing characters from 2010 to 200X, does the history those characters have in 2010 come with them? Or do they become effective rewrites as well as any 2018 character, history wise?

Every character in 200X, regardless of their source, has a new history.
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