How Deep of a Hole Can One Nova Dig?

[Warren Verona]

So, Good Alice, who works for Project Utopia makes anti-Christian statements in the nation that boasts the second largest Catholic population (Mexico), second only to Brazil.

So... what do you guys think?

Discuss.

[Jager]

I'm wondering if the Terat Feathered Serpant doesn't join in. After all, he's not into promoting just 'any' ancient religion, only the ancient Meso-American ones.

Then there is the reality that Team Tomorrow Americas is headquartered in Mexico City, thus easy to get at, boycott, and protest around.

Good Alice, it isn't like you are promoting faiths for the benefit of the native Mexicans. You are promoting your own vision. That leaves you a very small population base to rally to your cause. The Catholic church, on the other hand, being very concious of the power of statues and icons within their own faith, would be unhappy with Good Alice's pagan and openly anti-Christian agenda. They would be willing to muster their 95% of the population.

In the past, the Catholic Church's humanitarian mission and PU's have worked well together. How much is Project Utopia willing to go through for Good Alice's benefit?

If PU tells Good Alice to cut it out for the good of PU's over all mission, will she?

I absolutely believe that if Good Alice stands her ground, PU would cut her loose. If GA is cut loose, how much of her support would evaporate as well? Realistically, much of the work GA has done up until now, along with the feelings of debt, would also go away. Its not all because of fear of the Church, but because GA has show herself willing to hang out her friends (Project Utopia) out to dry for personal profit. A handful of idealists might ... might ... see her actions as spiritual. Most people would see them as selfish.

No one likes boarding a sinking ship.

Now, I understand Good Alice has Backing 4 with Project Utopia. If so, that means there are a lot of peoople inside the Project who are counting on her to 'do the right thing' and save the Project from a Public Relations nightmare. If she fails that, she is failing thousands of supporters and fans.

Just a few things to think on.

[Hugin]

I'd also like to point out that in Mexico it is illegal for non-citizens to own property. Would the Mexican government appreciate having their very generous exception be used for something that would infuriate the people?

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Hugin

I'd also like to point out that in Mexico it is illegal for non-citizens to own property.

I did not know that.

[Hugin]

I believe it is still the case. Pretty sure.

[Kultra]

It is still the case Hugin.

[Lou Anne Burgess]

Polymath, but virtue of living in Mexico would be best to address this, however, a quick search did turn up a few interesting things.

This is culled from Wikipedia, so I can't vouch 100% for the authenticity, but figure it's trustworthy until proven otherwise.

Article 1 of the Constitution: Discrimination of any kind, including religious is illegal. Thus if Alice refuses to grant a Temple to Catholicism/Christianty she's in violation of the constitution.

Article 27 addresses Land Ownership: "Only Mexicans by birth or naturalization and Mexican companies have the right to acquire ownership of lands, waters, and their appurtenances, or to obtain concessions for the exploitation of mines or of waters. All of the land in the country is originally the property of the nation, which can grant control over it to private citizens, albeit with certain restrictions – for instance, foreign citizens cannot own land within 100 km of the borders or 50 km of the sea, that an area of land next to the coast is federal property which cannot be sold to particulars, and that only the nation may control, extract, and process petroleum and its derivatives." (Source - Wikipedia)

That one is backed up by several other sites.

Alice also needs potentially to worry about Article 123 which spells out worker's rights and 130 which spells out rights of churches and clergy.

That's a 5 minute search from someone who can't speak more than a lick of spanish. Honestly, if enough novas complained to the government of Mexico, it might be enough to cause problems for her, because they could evict her in a heartbeat if they wanted.

[Kultra]

Heh. Thank you Lou Anne, you saved me the tiring ordeal of typing up a couple words in google! *gives a cookie!*

But on what you said:

Article 1: She dosen't HAVE to give a temple that she is building with her personal resources. On the other hand, if Catholics/Christians/Jews/Islamites ask her to build a temple on her land, and she says no, that IS discrimination.

Article 27: Now that you have mentioned the limits to where foreigners can own land, since MC has been careful to keep any and all descriptions as vague as possible, he will just claim that Good Alice was granted terrain more than 100 KM into the country and call it a rest on that law.

Article 123: Talks about Worker's rights, but since Good Alice isin't paying the temples directly, she dosen't actually have any workers, which makes ehr free of this one.

Article 130: I somehow doubt she will try to open a school or run for a political campaign >_>

[Butterfly]

Isn't it somewhere in Chihuahua?

[Kultra]

yes, and whiel Chihuahua is a border state, it also can fit Italy inside of it with space to spare. So yeah, there is a lot of desert in that state. =P

[Sakurako Hino]

I have to state something here so it is perfectly crystal to Good Alice's player. Endeavor has cultivated her identity into what can be seen as "Intellectual Property". On the same level as to how some pro wrestlers have their personas protected, or rock stars have their identities protected in the same manner (Such as Gene Simmons owns the rights to his character in KISS). For good or ill, Endeavor is the same way in regards to Sakurako Hino.

As such, if there is an Endeavor statue among the ones she created, she will have a full legal team send a Cease and Desist warning via the protections that International Copyright Law provide, with the terms being the destruction of said statue, to a non-repairable state, or a proper monitary settlement with access to royalty rights based on any tourist monies that come in.

If either are not to Good Alice's liking, Sakurako may bring Good Alice to court to answer to this violation. Which may bring a MASSIVE fine or worse. (Some Copyright violations carry punitive jail times.)

If Good Alice's player is unwilling to set aside the character contract relating to the possible penalties her character will endure if her character loses the case, or doesn't wish to work with Sakurako IC with a settlement, and impede in an OOC manner to any further attempts of Sakurako IC to rectify the situation, I OOC will request that the statue be destroyed or removed under the character contract that the actions of a player's character shouldn't impede/harm another's without expressed permission. The impediment/harm to Sakurako is the publicity this produces, the potential damage to Sakurako's public relations if certain individuals believe Sakurako encouraged this, and to her Intellectual Property.

Of course, all Good Alice's player has to do is say that a statue of Endeavor or Sakurako Hino does not exist, and I will drop this matter in this regard.

Also, I request Good Alice to post a list of Novas that are members of the RPG-Post community, so that the individual player(s) may judge on their own terms if they wish to have the statue(s) continue in existance in the 2017 continuity.

[Velvet]

GA's player has already proven to be less than cooperative in this regard, and I've informed him I'll be taking appropriate action. Those of you dissatisfied with the current situation may wish to do the same.

[Tempest]

Wait, I'm still in the dark as to whether these sculptures are part of a private collection (as in works of art that reside in GA's personal home and only seen by her and any guests she has over) or a public display either in a gallery or her temples.

[Lou Anne Burgess]

Originally Posted By: Tempest

Wait, I'm still in the dark as to whether these sculptures are part of a private collection (as in works of art that reside in GA's personal home and only seen by her and any guests she has over) or a public display either in a gallery or her temples.

That's one of the things on my mental list of conversation topics once Graven Images gets going again.

At this point, publicly, Alice has only said that the statues are in her home.

In Fiction, she's told me she's planning to build a gallery, but she hasn't been in a mood to post lately due to the furor over the issue. As such, I haven't been able to find out if this gallery is planned to be public or private. Given that it's to house 1000+ 10-14' tall statues though, it's going to be gargantuan. I'm hoping we can pick back up shortly and I can find this out as well as getting answers to a few other questions.

[Hugin]

A thousand statues? Does the Louvre even have a thousand statues? The place would have to be the size of a convention hall.

[Courier]

Are these life sized? 1/4?

[Velvet]

I hate to say it, but I don't think a reasonable answer can be expected, under the circumstances.

1,000 statues, each one at least 10' tall, and temples/residences to house them, on land granted by the Mexican government to a Utopian who isn't a Mexican national, who has a clearly anti-Christian agenda within the second largest Catholic nation in the world? Surrounded by 1,500 people at any given time and full of ancient religious artifacts?

Barring the obvious question of, "How do you quantify or justify those sorts of expenditures?" there are a lot of issues GA's player has yet to resolve on this matter (disregarding his similar behaviors with any of his other characters) with any degree of clarity. I'm not sure he's taken into account the serious political ramifications, or the PR nightmare this would be for Project Utopia, and I'd like to see those addressed, as well.

[Hugin]

Wow, when you load it all up together like that it really does come across as absurd, don't it?

[Conduit]

In an effort to help with a comparison let's look at a real world example.

KV 62 (Tut's tomb) had, depending on who you ask, 400+ statues in it. Admittedly most of these statues are less than 1 foot in length, although there were several lifesize and larger than lifesize spread throughout.

The tomb itself is 109.83 square meters (1182.20 square feet) in floor area(~1.3 times larger than my house) It had an internal volume of 277.01 cubic meters (9782.52 cubic feet) Volume is important because a 10 ft tall statue doesn't really work in a home with a ceiling of 4 ft, regardless of floor area.

So what does this show us? Two things. One, I live in a home smaller than the tomb of a person who lived 3000 years ago and wasn't really all that important...yay me. Two, clearly these temples and galleries need to be pretty damn big to house all these statues. Now I'm not entirely against the whole thing (barring the issues with Mexican land grants). What I would like and has been said time and time again is some clarification. I'll keep some hope out there that it may happen.

[Courier]

RE: Not a national.

That's what followers are for.

And I can seriously see the Mex government likeing the idea of a nova creating statues of all novas, simply as a tourist attraction. I (the player) think it would be economically attractive to a city, even if you need an acer or 5 to put it on.

Note this strips all of the religious trappings from this. Meaning it'd be very easy for a gov to approve an "art exhibit" and then have it hijacked by religious types.

[Kultra]

The big problem is, that GA didn't set it up in a touristy city. Since the Mexican Goverment has laws against giving land near the sea or near the frontiere.

This Gallery would be set up right smackdab in the middle of the desert of Chihuahua, which you can ask Conduit, it sucks ass on summer AND on Winter.

Beyond that, the way Velvet put how much did Alice did on the land that was granted to her by Mexico, damn... just damn. Even if Good Alice is her own construction crew and did all the work by herself, and even if she can get all the rock-based materials with Quantum powers, there are still a ton of expenditures needed to build something of that magnitude.

Anyway, I find it funny that no one batted an eyelash on the mention of building 50 temples the first time around, but the minute she mentioned statues of people all hell broke loose =P

[Ptesan-Wi]

The more I look at this, the more I see a bit fat "Non-Canon" stamp applied to it.

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: J. 'Polymath' Rivera

Anyway, I find it funny that no one batted an eyelash on the mention of building 50 temples the first time around, but the minute she mentioned statues of people all hell broke loose =P

Actually, there was a bit of a grumpiness at the beginning. This has been a long, on-going issue.

Frankly, I hate most of the idea, from the temples to the statue, but I personally don't feel like arguing about it. Why? Because I don't like arguing with Dreamer, despite the fact that I seem to do it on a regular basis. He almost never listens to any advice, no matter how logically presented or how much evidence you can drag up about it. In arguments with Dreamer, I've gotten the following as "answers" to questions:

-another question, that usually seems like it's supposed to answer the question but never does, because the point is rarely pertinent
-a link to an article which would take longer to read than to finish the discussion
-a hurried, sudden good-bye

Frankly, I'm tired of logic and common sense getting rammed from behind and nothing can be done about it. Is there anything that can be done? Not really, no, and so I've stopped caring about this whole thing. I have homework and real life and a blood pressure to worry about, and frankly, the less time we argue about, the sooner it's done with and the rest of us can pretend it never happened.

Sorry, Dreamer, if this upsets you. But you know that I won't lie to you, now or ever. And this is how I feel. The temples were an illogical mess from the start. The statues are very disrespectful, especially given the fact that our character's images are our creations. We made them up, and you grabbed them willy-nilly without asking, and then arguing about it when the rudeness was pointed out. Please, Dreamer, just listen to us. We don't hate you; most of us wanna help you have fun in our shared world. Because honestly, that's the point here, and I don't think that anyone has fun with it, at all.

[Lou Anne Burgess]

Actually, there was a multipage argument about the temples the first time around; it remained mostly civil. It's just that the "I'm done my temples" thread quickly brought up the personal statues and everything degenerated from that.

The original announcement

[Dawn OOC]

Actually, there's been 3 IC Opnet posts about this.

http://www.rpg-post.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=42615

http://www.rpg-post.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/76775

http://www.rpg-post.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/83259

[Kultra]

I think I missed the first arguement, but I remember the second one from around the time where I was still regularly playing TT Aberrant.

But as I said while people protested the 50 temples, it wasen't until somebody said that temples and nova images on the same line, that everyone exploded and started to find ways to shut down GA's isin't it?

[Lou Anne Burgess]

Originally Posted By: Dawn, GM

Actually, there's been 3 IC Opnet posts about this.

Whoops, I thought there was another one, but was pressed for time at work & didn't keep looking back.

And actually Polymath, while I can't speak for everyone, it wasn't that she mentioned Temples & Nova Statues in the same breath. It was the fact that the statues were mostly of the people here that got people upset. When she started confirming people that were asking (mostly with the implicit -- please say you don't have one of me) that yes, she did in fact have a statue of them... That things blew up.

Which I guess should teach us not to leave things like that implicit.

[Jager]

I think its a matter of Continuity, Conception, and Control.

When someone announces in the IC forum that they are doing something, or have done something, other poster consider if and how that action/event effects them. More than few people say "I ignore anything this player does", but not everyone. Posters like (I think) keeping the IC forum as canon. This becomes a problem when something is done that the poster feels strongly about, yet finds themselves powerless by the rules of consent to do anything about.

In a situation that someone wishes to make canon (and if they don't, I wish they would please just post it as Non-Canon at the start), it is good style to take feedback about what they've posted and consider the consequences and responsibility for what they've done. I know, this is not required, but it certainly helps smooth out the interactions on the site.

It is ease to under-estimate just how strong people feel about the characters they create. That character's image/likeness is important to them.

Now, is the likeness of a PC protected under Character Consent? I don't know.

I do know that if someone created a blonde-haired, blue-eyed, physically powerful yet mysterious male named Yeager, or Hunter, or something else similar, I would call foul. That's MY character's likeness. I think (hope) people would agree with me.

So, were does the protection for one's likeness begin, if you can't create a PC that parodies someone elses?

What if I just want to Clone and Appearance Alteration to have my nova do things? Commit crimes? Lewd acts?

In these cases, I find it better to err on the side of Dawn ... I mean, politeness. If you are going to do something that will impact another PC, ask them. Most people are okay with some perihperhal actions. Maybe some compromise can be worked out and repurcussions discussed. Aberrant isn't 4-color. Novas make mistakes, so let them make mistakes and deal with it.

If you can't find a compromise, its better to not do whatever action was planned. A failure to work things out leaves us with threads like this one.

[Hugin]

Originally Posted By: Courier

Note this strips all of the religious trappings from this. Meaning it'd be very easy for a gov to approve an "art exhibit" and then have it hijacked by religious types.

Yeah, but the fact is this has been presented to us in not exactly the most reasonable fashion. It's hard to accept a slight bending of credulity when it has been done so poorly and with the attitude of "I say it happens and therefore it happens."

[Catalyst]

Originally Posted By: Revenant

So, Good Alice, who works for Project Utopia makes anti-Christian statements in the nation that boasts the second largest Catholic population (Mexico), second only to Brazil.

So... what do you guys think?

Discuss.

She said she does not like Christains, she has said nothing untrue or slanderous of the historic. Point to one thing she said that is untrue on that subject.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2006/71467.htm

So yes, the goverement who gets free work, on massive scales would show enough hate and rage at Alice, because she doesn't talk to their sky friend.

I would also point out she does not work for Utopia, she works with Utopia. Big Difference. If they walk away form her,she no longer does work for free for them.

[Catalyst]

Originally Posted By: Lou Anne Burgess

Originally Posted By: Tempest

Wait, I'm still in the dark as to whether these sculptures are part of a private collection (as in works of art that reside in GA's personal home and only seen by her and any guests she has over) or a public display either in a gallery or her temples.

That's one of the things on my mental list of conversation topics once Graven Images gets going again.

At this point, publicly, Alice has only said that the statues are in her home.

In Fiction, she's told me she's planning to build a gallery, but she hasn't been in a mood to post lately due to the furor over the issue. As such, I haven't been able to find out if this gallery is planned to be public or private. Given that it's to house 1000+ 10-14' tall statues though, it's going to be gargantuan. I'm hoping we can pick back up shortly and I can find this out as well as getting answers to a few other questions.

She is going to build a building on her land in Maryland. Private. It may be in more than one building.

[Good Alice]

Originally Posted By: Velvet

GA's player has already proven to be less than cooperative in this regard, and I've informed him I'll be taking appropriate action. Those of you dissatisfied with the current situation may wish to do the same.

No, see you go off on long rants and raves in and ooc to deal with an IC problem, and piss me off. I explain to you that I can't deal with it now, and do not know if I want to. You then take offense at this. You then say I will deal with the mods.

[Good Alice]

Originally Posted By: Velvet

I hate to say it, but I don't think a reasonable answer can be expected, under the circumstances.

1,000 statues, each one at least 10' tall, and temples/residences to house them, on land granted by the Mexican government to a Utopian who isn't a Mexican national, who has a clearly anti-Christian agenda within the second largest Catholic nation in the world? Surrounded by 1,500 people at any given time and full of ancient religious artifacts?

Barring the obvious question of, "How do you quantify or justify those sorts of expenditures?" there are a lot of issues GA's player has yet to resolve on this matter (disregarding his similar behaviors with any of his other characters) with any degree of clarity. I'm not sure he's taken into account the serious political ramifications, or the PR nightmare this would be for Project Utopia, and I'd like to see those addressed, as well.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. She built 50 temples. She doesn't run them. She gave them to the followers of the faith/religion the temple is built for. They have 1,500 people at any given time.

You said you want to reduce the statue, and all the area around it including the temples. You stated you wanted pull a a Rome Vs Carthage. Bring a "Nuke" to destroy a sand stone statue.

Cost you say? She built most of it out of Sand, ruble, and rock. All witch she mined. The cost of mining when you can move cubic yards of rock with shovel, added with land such as Florida swamps, Gobi desert.

[Velvet]

There is a vast difference in saying, "I'm upset and I would prefer not to discuss this right now," and the following excerpt from your last PM:

Originally Posted By: Good Alice

I could think of many calm and rational responces to thread, I am just wondering if you are worht any of them. Velvet, you and Rev, have seemingly gone out of your way both Ic and OOC to be bothersome twits. So I am not really in the mood to be kind of nice to you.

Yes. I took offense. Yes, I stated I would discuss the matter with the Directors, because you are clearly unable or unwilling to resolve the issue in any reasonable fashion. Calling me a "bothersome twit" and telling me I'm not worth the effort it would take to compromise sums it up rather neatly. As a player, to say that I dislike you intensely would be a serious understatement, and it's my fervent hope that once this is over, I need never again involve myself in the farce you call "roleplay."

In response to your second post:

Never once did I mention Carthage, Rome, nukes, or slaughtering people. When I stated I'd want the statue destroyed, and you balked at the idea, you decided to throw in the idea of "civilians" and "artifacts" to prevent it and provoked my character into a threat. Velvet stated, for the record, that if you would not cooperate, the statue and its housing would be destroyed. Of course, she wouldn't shed a tear if the rest of them were reduced to dust, as well.

You have repeatedly ignored all requests for factual information, instead responding with irrelevant statements about things like mining and whether or not she runs the temples. As far as expenditures are concerned, I sincerely doubt she managed to mine, herself, for all necessary materials in the local area. I doubt even more seriously that she hauled multiple tons of rock from far-flung locales, and managed to construct everything necessary within the given time frame. You deal in impossibilities, and refute any logical argument made contrary to your own unrealistic statements. Further, you cannot/will not cite specific answers to issues such as these, but seem bent on only causing further confusion.

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Good Alice

They have 1,500 people at any given time.

Okay, clarify. 1,500 per temple? OR 1,500 scattered among all 50 temples?

Because if you mean to tell me 75,000 came to flock from all corners of the globe I'm calling flat out 'bullshit'.

Now 1,500 visitors during the course of a day or say maybe, but 1,500 full time residents per temple is just flat out ludicrous. Not that erecting 50 temples, having unlimited resources, and all the other crap GA does isn't, but I'm not getting into that with you.

So, answer my question about the 1,500 people please.

[Good Alice]

Originally Posted By: Revenant

Originally Posted By: Good Alice

They have 1,500 people at any given time.

Okay, clarify. 1,500 per temple? OR 1,500 scattered among all 50 temples?

Because if you mean to tell me 75,000 came to flock from all corners of the globe I'm calling flat out 'bullshit'.

Now 1,500 visitors during the course of a day or say maybe, but 1,500 full time residents per temple is just flat out ludicrous. Not that erecting 50 temples, having unlimited resources, and all the other crap GA does isn't, but I'm not getting into that with you.

So, answer my question about the 1,500 people please.

Sorry I was not clear, 1,500 for all 50 temples.