Character's MOs

[Y.T.]

There is a level 5 power suite that gives peopel "x" nova points. This is a suite power, a nova "could" get it a whole level 4 power...

But even baring that, I was going for people with stat and skills going to like 6,7,8..10 not 5,mega one,two,three,four...

[Timeslip]

The problem with that is that - with the exception of Mega-Attributes and Quantum Powers for Q6+ novas, and such traits as Willpower, Taint, Quantum, Quantum Pool, and Chrysalis - traits cannot exceed five dots.

[Alessa Neri]

Well, the rule for normal attributes above 5 could be ripped wholesale from another WW book, which one? it's in the air since all of them have different statistics for some of them.

For example 10 Str for a Werewolf and a Vampire are different if I remembeber correctly, the other's one could argue are exactly the same since there is no table to compare or specific parameters per dot, but a system could be developed.

But remember, even over writting the abilitites into 1-10, the WW system's use 6-10 in an ability to show stuff far from human, I believe Str 7 was enough to punch through a concrete wall, that's monstrously strong for a human to achieve. For anything other than a Nova to achieve even.

What Signy want's to create is basically a Aberrant version of Captain America.

It's even worse when you think that than no matter how big their numbers get, they can't compare to Novas.

[Y.T.]

Trinity, had rules for dots going to 6.

Signy is not about making human into nova, but making baselines better than what they are.It is not about making every human into a nova, it is about making them all better. Sure they world strongest none nova is not as strong as a strong nova.That is not the point.

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Hugin

2. Aberrant specifically states a couple of times that the game is not about super tech. If you want to play Iron Man, Dr. Doom or Reed Richards they suggest you try another game.

Although I'm loathe to side with Y.T. I have to point out one thing.

'Brainwaves' which I do believe is accepted around here as 'canon' material, specifically states under the "No, really. You, can't be Iron-Man" the very fist thing it says is "Well, okay, you can, sort of."

If you follow the ruels for Gadgeteering in the players guide you can break aberrant wide open with Shadow Tech. Super suits, ray guns, the whole shibang.

It is possible using the rules given. Sure, it may not be your style of play, or mine. But there in black in white are rules saying it can be done.

The one thing I haven't seen touched on is chemicals. Super Soldier potions, T-Virus's, and Soveriegn Glue are still not something I've seen rules for.

[Catalyst]

Style of playing in 2017 is largely if it is in the rules it is all cool....The rules doesn't say you can't, so you should do it!

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Y.T.

Trinity, had rules for dots going to 6.

All WW books have rules for traits above 6.

Quote:

Signy is not about making human into nova, but making baselines better than what they are.It is not about making every human into a nova, it is about makign them all better. Sure they world strongest none nova is not as strong as a strong nova..That is nto the point..

What Signy is planning is genetic manipulation. Be it through chemistry, quantum, or happy thoughts, it's still genetic manipulation.

As you also just stated, not to one person but to many or to use your words 'all baselines'. I'll put this in the simplest of terms: Your character could not afford it.

No one would back this sort of research, it's unethical and been tried by a ton of people waaay before Signy ever had the thought.

Signy would need a backing from someone willing to approve this research, and it's not one of those "Oh since I needed the backing I just gave it to myself in a fiction I wrote." kinda deals. Nuh uh. Not having that.

The most important point, even with out backing, is that Signy could not afford this project. The monthly expenditures for a project to develop something of this magnitude is way more per month than a Resources 5 purchase. She'd go broke. Even with help from another one of your characters (which I know you'd try) it still wouldn't be enough. Resources 5 is 10,000,000 (that's Ten Million) liquidated (liquidated means selling everything you own!). Now, last I checked, cancer research alone is 215,000,000 in 1 year in Australia. And from September to August (that's 11 months) in Texas 252,000,000! Where is your character going to scrape up that kinda lettuce (that's slang, for money)?

She couldn't. Period. Long couldn't do it, Hugin couldn't do it, I know Reven sure as hell couldn't...

Now let me explain something... because I know you think that I don't like you. Well, you're right. I don't.

But I'm fair.

This is not me picking on you, it's simply me giving you the straight up facts.

[Hugin]

Hey Rev, don't feel bad.

Yes, using Gadget rules you can dupe any power available in the Core Book or the PH. But remember those are gadgets, not super-technology. Gadgets only work because the NOVA who makes them is fudging the rules of the universe. They are temporary and can't be duplicated by baselines. If you want to push Technology beyond the limits so that it can be duplicated or is a permenent change then you're looking at acquiring taint for each and every advance.

So, strictly speaking, can you make a pill that duplicates Boost with an extended timespan and has the ability to pump up other stuff? Yes, but it's going to last less than a year and when it fails it will explode, causing damage to the baseline who took it. And the nova in question has to make each and every pill, by themselves and that takes time.

From what I've read it sounds like MC (Signy, YT, et all) wants to be able to push technology and therein lies the limitations.

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: Catalyst

Style of playing in 2017 is largely if it is in the rules it is all cool....The rules doesn't say you can't, so you should do it!

No, the rules of 2017 say you should play by the rules; whatever falls outside them is still off limits. The rules and canon allow quite a bit of room, but if it's not mentioned in canon, I don't think 2017 allows for it. Sadly, if we said, "If it's not outlawed, you can do it," then we'll have the Directors scrambling along behind reactively going, "No, you can't do that, really. I know it's not on the list, but we just added it."

[The White Rat]

In the book Aberrant: Year One, there are guidelines for genetic engineering and other technological developement. They explain what kinds of resources and laboratory facilities that are necessary. Making a retrovirus that causes genetic mutation is a difficult task, but not impossible, and not as expensive as it may seem. The problem with doing such research, is having the lab facilities, the time it takes, and the Abilities and attributes necessary.

For example. Implanting a gene involves a Medicine roll at +2 difficulty. THe greater the successes, the better the results.

Creating a new gene, not found in nature already, would take 15 successes at +3 diffculty on an extended Medicine roll. Once created, it would need implantation per the roll above.

Genetic creations listed in the book are: Metal-Sequestering Plants, Steroid Virus (ILGF), Medibacco, and Organ Cloning.

[Tempest]

My problem with all this isn't one of mechanics. It's with storytelling. I want to read about the process not the end result. I want to read about the failures and how they were handled/cleaned up, I want to read about the successes and how the scientific community responds to these claims.

Anyone can make a post saying "Hey! I just created a Super Soldier Serum" but how boring is that? My honest response to that is "whoopdy-fucking-do"

[Y.T.]

The numbers in reources and the numbers in aberrant do not match in style. Ever T2m member would have 5 rsources. Every Elite.Every nova would at least have it at 3, unless they tried not to make money.TRIED not to...

[Y.T.]

Originally Posted By: Tempest

My problem with all this isn't one of mechanics. It's with storytelling. I want to read about the process not the end result. I want to read about the failures and how they were handled/cleaned up, I want to read about the successes and how the scientific community responds to these claims.

Anyone can make a post saying "Hey! I just created a Super Soldier Serum" but how boring is that? My honest response to that is "whoopdy-fucking-do"

Well if you read Preston and Signy's story witch should be restarting soon you will see that she has been working on interesting ways to bring Humanity to a singularity. She is doing things in round about ways.

[Timeslip]

I will repeat: there are no rules in Aberrant for traits - excepting Mega-Attributes and Quantum Powers for Q6+ novas, and such traits as Willpower, Taint, Quantum (Psi), Quantum (Psi) Pool, and Chrysalis - that exceed five dots.

This is not Trinity. This is not a World of Darkness game. This is Aberrant, and we use the rules therein.

The first paragraph on page 114 makes clear that Attributes (not Mega-Attributes) are rated from one to five dots. The first paragraph under "Step Three: Choosing Abilities" on the same page makes clear that the same holds true for Abilities. The first paragraph on page 107 also notes that, "Most Traits are rated from one to five dots...."

There is simply no provision within the rules for Traits (other than the specific exceptions previously noted) above five dots.

[Y.T.]

So says the one who wanted a psion with a psi of higher than 5...

[Timeslip]

Correction:

1. It's psiad, not psion, in the Aberrant era.

2. Psi is the psiad equivalent to Quantum, and both have a maxiumum rating of 10.

3. I have a psiad with a Psi rating of 6.

Try again.

[Seph OOC]

Machina and Regina both hate this thread so much.

[Sandcaster]

It's an easy thread to hate.

[Rush]

IF you hate it, don't read it.

[Seph OOC]

Calm down, guys. Just making sport of the fact that the recent hot topics of debate in this thread have been the canonical understanding and use of (a)gadgeteering and (b)gene manipulation, the respective fortes of the above two characters.

[Matryoshka]

Honestly if you all noticed that I said that I knew any ideas i had would be voted non canon?Oh maybe I need to yell my intent in evry post..Oh well

Hail to the non canon psaid!

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: Matryoshka

Honestly if you all noticed that I said that I knew any ideas i had would be voted non canonnon-canon?[space] Oh maybe I need to yell my intent in evry [every] post..[.] Oh well[.]

Hail to the non canon non-canon psaid [psiad]!

Actually, psiads and the rules for them are in the APG, so while they are an optional rule, they are also a rule that the Directors (which are the closest thing we have to STs out here) have certainly allowed, making Ptesan-Wi a valid character. Not only have they allowed her to persist, but they have doubly confirmed her by granting her the status of P6.

Find another dead horse to beat, MC; no matter how many times you point accusingly at PW, people are not going to rise up in a flood of canon-righteousness and wash her away.

[Hugin]

Originally Posted By: Seph OOC

Machina and Regina both hate this thread so much.

Why?

[Hugin]

Originally Posted By: Matryoshka

Honestly if you all noticed that I said that I knew any ideas i had would be voted non canon?Oh maybe I need to yell my intent in evry post..Oh well

Hail to the non canon psaid!

So are you and I done? I've tried to engage in a polite, thoughtful debate but you don't seem interested.

[Catalyst]

Polite thoughtful debate requires that both sides agree to the terms of the debate. I laid out that, my character would not likely get anywhere with her goals because I honestly do not think people care for world shattering changes.I explained what I wanted anyway, knowing full well I would get jack and shit.

See, the fact is I understood well before posting this thread that not a signal idea about post humanism would be embraced because frankly the only post humanism in Aberrant I can do with the canon would be to turn every human into a nova. In the rules I could do this. Cannonly speaking I could find weaknesses and such to reduce a level 5 power to a level four power and say thank you all for playing we now live in a world with more than 6 billion weak novas.

Signy could do that, and it would be wholly canon. But that is not the point. The point is not me winning or losing or whatever. It is about having fun. Respecting people. So I do things that I am interested in doing, wile playing within the rules. So, you want a polite debate? Sure, I point out that , psi in the books stops at five... Someone has it at six. That is just about as canon as wits of 6.

[Lady Millicent]

Oh, Catalyst, really, drop the Psi 6 thing, Psi is explicitly stated as going to 10 in Trinity and implicitly so in Aberrant (as it is the equivalent of Quantum, and Quantum goes to 10 per the APG). You have no argument there.

[Matryoshka]

Um wits is explicitly stated in trinity going past 5, and also in every other white wolf game. It is not implicitly so in Aberrant because people are implicitly playing novas. Novas get megas... It stats only the rules for making psi weilders, not for advancing them, just as it states in the core rule book without APG that quantum goes up to five. In the core book all powers are level three or lower.

The APG expands on the rules and as such you can have a quantum of 6,7,8,9, and yes 10. Note that CTT is not in the basic book.

The rules for psi weilders are not explicitly or even implicitly with the idea you can have a psi of 10,9,8,7 or even 6. It is in fact the other way around going so far to say that psiads will never learn level 4 or higher powers. The logic stating that Psi and quantum are the same is paper thin. Quantum, does not offer any soak vs psi powers. Psi offer soak vs quantum powers. You do not have any draw backs with psi stated in the rules.Why well I think it is because psiads were shottly put together, and a last minute add on on for cool style sake or whatever.

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: Matryoshka

The rules for psi weilders wielders are not explicitly or even implicitly with the idea you can have a psi of 10,9,8,7 or even 6. It is in fact the other way around[;] going so far to say that psiads will never learn level 4 or higher powers [Editor's note: Can someone verify? I thought that the cap was level 2 powers]. The logic stating that Psi and quantum are the same is paper thin. Quantum, does not offer any soak vs psi powers. Psi offer soak vs quantum powers. [Editor's note: I assume you meant 'Psi does not offer soak...'] You do not have any draw backs with psi stated in the rules.[space] Why[?] wWell I think it is because psiads were shottly shoddily put together, and a last minute add on on for cool style sake or whatever.

Whatever the reason for WW putting them in, or for the Directors allowing PW to go to P6, it is done. She is part of N!Prime, and you should probably just feel fortunate that we haven't had a flood of copy-catters. You're beating a dead horse, and wasting time. From this point on, I'll ignore all snotty remarks about P6 or psiads that come from you, and I suggest everyone else do the same.

[Ptesan-Wi]

The actual rule that Signy is misquoting is, "A psiad cannot purchase a power with a Quantum minimum (or, for our purposes here, Psi minimum) higher than four." (Player's Guide, p. 60, 2nd column) In short, it is not the Power Level, but rather the Quantum minimum that is the limiting factor... the goal being to keep psiads - even very powerful psiads - from having powers that blatently and grotesquely manipulate the world around them. Psi powers are, as sub-quantum manipulations, much more subtle by definition than are Quantum powers (which grap direct hold of the building blocks of the universe and tweak it as desired).

As for Psi 6 and above: the rules clearly note that the term "Psi" is simply substituted for "Quantum". Mind you, the initial Psi that a psiad can purchase with Nova Points (well, "Psych Points" if one wishes to be technical) is limited to 5, just as is the initial Quantum for a nova. High levels of Psi (5 and above) do not, of course, inflict Taint ('course, the psiad can't buy things Tainted, either, so it sort of evens out). But aside from that, there's no difference specified in the rules between Quantum and Psi; they correspond directly to each other, and both cap at 10.

Now that said, there was some question of how to handle Psi above 5. Does it provide free extras in the manner that high Quantum does? Can a psiad put Mastery on a power? Does it open things up to powers with higher Quantum minimums? The writers of the Player's Guide did not elaborate on this matter. The Directors and I both asked those questions, and the solution at which we arrived was designed to keep psiads "subtle":

1. No, it doesn't open up powers with higher quantum minimums. The book is very clear on the point of QMin4 being the cap on Quantum powers for a psiad, and makes no exception for even Psi 5, let alone higher psi ratings.

2. No Mastery. The description of Mastery notes that it has a Quantum minimum of 6; as such, it creates (in effect) a power with a Quantum minimum of 6, which is out of reach for a psiad of any Psi rating.

3. No "free" extras. This one was a bit tougher; however, it wound up back in the "nothing with a Quantum minimum higher than 4" category. Simply put, free extras create a power with a QMin of 6 or more.

4. Increase the maximum rating in powers from 2 to 3. By the basic rules in the Player's Guide, psiads are limited to two dots in a power. It was the decision of the directors that, much as a Quantum rating of 6 or more increased a nova's maximum rating in a power by one per Quantum point above 6, so should a psiad's Psi rating do likewise. As such, Ptesan-Wi at Psi 6 can have up to three dots in a power.

This preserves the spirit of psiads as noted by the developers, whilst giving some guidelines on how to handle a situation that was left vague by same.

[Hugin]

Originally Posted By: Catalyst

Polite thoughtful debate requires that both sides agree to the terms of the debate. I laid out that, my character would not likely get anywhere with her goals because I honestly do not think people care for world shattering changes.I explained what I wanted anyway, knowing full well I would get jack and shit.

See, the fact is I understood well before posting this thread that not a signal idea about post humanism would be embraced because frankly the only post humanism in Aberrant I can do with the canon would be to turn every human into a nova. In the rules I could do this. Cannonly speaking I could find weaknesses and such to reduce a level 5 power to a level four power and say thank you all for playing we now live in a world with more than 6 billion weak novas.

Signy could do that, and it would be wholly canon. But that is not the point. The point is not me winning or losing or whatever. It is about having fun. Respecting people. So I do things that I am interested in doing, wile playing within the rules. So, you want a polite debate? Sure, I point out that , psi in the books stops at five... Someone has it at six. That is just about as canon as wits of 6.

Well, you quoted Moore's Law as support for your belief that technology should be far beyond what Aberrant allows. I quoted a source that states that Moore's Law is limited in its scope.

You talked about making biotech. I pointed out that yes, while possible it is temporary and time consuming.

You point out that Signy has resources 5 and it is pointed out to you that resources 5 is still pretty limited. One character cannot have the wealth available to a medium sized nation or a multinational corporation. It isn't available within the rules.

Now you mention lowering a level 5 power to a level four. Yes, but can you show me where lowering the power level of that power lowers the quantum minimum requirement? If the power the technique comes from requires a Q8 then the technique would likely still require a Q8. Or Q7 at the minimum. Signy doesn't have a Q7. So I'm lost as to where you think she would still have the opportunity to do so.

[Y.T.]

She also has Backing of 5, mega int of 6, the ability to have as many copies of herself as she wants. She can without the of a single computer can out number crunch MIT. Hugin.

[Catalyst]

You can lower the quantum minimums with weakness.With a power like that, it could take months to use, cost 40 quantum pool, and in number of weaknesses and Signy wouldn't care. She would do it once and no one could stop her. That would kill canon as we know it but she could do it.

[Courier]

x

Originally Posted By: Catalyst

You can lower the quantum minimums with weakness.

Actually No, you can't. You can lower the Level, but lowering the level as far as I can tell doesn't reduce the Q-min. Thus dropping Disin's level to 2, or even 1, doesn't prevent help with the Q-min of 5.

Similarly, any power with the extra Mastery is Q6-min regardless of what level it is. Claws+Mastery is a level 2 power with a Q min of 6. Slap 5 points of weakness on it and you have a first level power with a Q-min of 6.

Some of the high level suit powers (i.e. the level 4 powers) could presumably be broken up. Their individual techniques could be turned into powers. But even this doesn't always reduce the Q min. Biomanipulation is a good example. It's Q6 min, but one of it's techniques would be "q-bolt" which has a Q-min of 1. At the other extreme it's ability to effect microcrobes would still be Q-min of 6 (see also Disease Authority).

Just off hand, I think Quantum Supremancy's techniques might make great level 4, Q-min 8 powers. A really nice ST might drop them to Q-min 7... but that doesn't really help anyone on this board.

[Hugin]

Originally Posted By: Catalyst

You can lower the quantum minimums with weakness.With a power like that, it could take months to use, cost 40 quantum pool, and in number of weaknesses and Signy wouldn't care. She would do it once and no one could stop her. That would kill canon as we know it but she could do it.

Hmmm. Okay, point by point.

No, I don't believe you can lower quantum minimums through the use of weaknesses. 5 points of weakness can lower the level of the power, adjusting it's cost to purchase and activate, but not its quantum minimum.

Weaknesses are set; target restrictions, dice pool, range, area, duration, multiple actions and damage.

Now, if you wanted Signy to adjust the world you're looking at not wanting to reduce range, area or duration, otherwise she's just pumping up a few folks for awhile or a lot of folks for a few minutes. Target restrictions? Well, "baseline" is hardly a restriction but say you got one point out of it, fine. Damage? You don't have any damage to reduce. Dice pool? Okay, reduce your dice a bunch and you can't get many successes. Kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

Okay, weaknesses could help out though, I admit that. But you still can't get the quantum minimum low enough. Even if it worked that way you're looking at 10 weaknesses to get it down to a Q6 minimum. Well, all you have the ability to reduce is dice pool from above so you now don't have the dice pool to do better than one or two successes at the most. If you're lucky.

[Hugin]

Originally Posted By: Y.T.

She also has Backing of 5, mega int of 6, the ability to have as many copies of herself as she wants. She can without the of a single computer can out number crunch MIT. Hugin.

So? She can do the calculations, but actually purchase the materials, have the facilities to use them? And a backing of 5 from whom? She seems to hold everyone with any appreciable power in complete contempt.

[Courier]

Originally Posted By: Hugin

Okay, weaknesses could help out though, I admit that. But you still can't get the quantum minimum low enough.

??? The Q-min shuts the whole thing down. Even if you somehow reduce it to a level 3, it's still Q-min 8.

Gadgets and drugs might be a half assed work around here. Node Spark + Mastery put into a tube. Of course that's basically Soma, and it does have the side effect of killing the baseline who is using it, but a pre-nova might just erupt.

[Timeslip]

In Signy's defense (never thought I'd type those words, eh?), the lowering-QMin thing has been a bone of contention and debate for a long, long time.

Does lowering the level of a power by yanking a technique out of a power suite also lower the QMin? Frack if I know, because that particular section of the rules ("Creating and Altering Powers" sidebar, Aberrant p. 178) is kind of vague, in much the same way as Xeno is kinda weird.

What I can tell you is that when developing A Breed Apart, came to the conclusion that using a technique as a separate power did indeed lower the QMin by a variable amount, as they established Bene “Bounty” Manata as having a Quantum rating of 4 and the Fertility and Growth techniques from Biomanipulation (a Level 3, QMin 6 power suite) as separate powers (p. 71 of said fan-book). Now, A Breed Apart is not - repeat, not - a canon source for N!Prime. That said, the specifics of how to handle Bounty were developed with the assistance of folks here at N!Prime.

As for lowering the QMin at the same time as lowering the level by slapping weakness on a power... again, hard to say because it was very vaguely written. I've seen any number of games where that's exactly how it was done, but that doesn't nail it down as canon. That said, here's a really, really good reason not to allow it: does anyone actually want to see Timeslip yank the Time Warp technique out of the Time Travel suite (making it L4, QMin 7), then slap five points of weaknesses to chop it down again (to L3, QMin 6)? No? I didn't think so....

As such, my personal feelings on it are:

Yank a technique out of a suite: drops QMin along with level.

Five points or more of weakness on a power: drops level, but not QMin.

That keeps those L5 suite powers out of our greedy little hands.

All that being said, what we really need is a ruling from Director Prime on this whole issue.

*** or *** (because I am Option Girl today)

Perhaps what should happen is that, if someone wants to lower the QMin of an otherwise out-of-reach (for that character) power - either by taking a technique from a suite, or by application of weaknesses - it should go up for Director review (either by a PMed request to Director Prime, or by going up for full review as a "new power" on the Expansions board). This would recognize and deal with one of the key elements of the "Creating and Altering Powers" sidebar: that the whole thing was meant as a tool for players to work out with the Storyteller, with the latter making a judgement call on whether or not the proposed changes are reasonable and won't cause undue harm to the overall N!Prime chronicle.

[Seph OOC]

Originally Posted By: Timeslip

Does lowering the level of a power by yanking a technique out of a power suite also lower the QMin?

Not a Mod, but I'd say the answer is "provisionally".

My character, Regina Newcastle, has both Body Manipulation and Form Manipulation, purchased independently of the Biomanipulation suite. She isn't Q6. I consulted with the Directors on this, and I was allowed to purchase those two powers at a reduced Q Min, the caveat being that I didn't otherwise circumvent the rules by purchasing all the Biomanp suite abilities as individual powers.

That said, I had to receive a special dispensation to do so. Buying a >Q5 suite power at a reduced Q Min at the very least requires Director approval.

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Timeslip

As such, my personal feelings on it are:

Yank a technique out of a suite: drops QMin along with level.
Five points or more of weakness on a power: drops level, but not QMin.

That keeps those L5 suite powers out of our greedy little hands.

Ya know I love ya Slippy, but I've never agreed with this rule. Simply put Temporal Manipulation requires Q5. Wether you are using the suite ability or the suite as a whole you are still manipulating time.

QMins are set for a reason. In order to manipulate X amount of power you must meet X requirement.

That's just my opinion.

[RPG Post]

It has been asked whether or not taking suit techniques as powers is possible, and whether this reduces their quantum minimum as well as their level.

It is possible. Most easily, some of the Q min 6 powers have suit techniques based on normal powers, and a nova could simply buy the core power at the normal q min. Examples are Poison, Quantum bolt, & Healing. Other Q6 suit techniques can be purchased as stand alone Q5 powers, for example Form Manipulation. As has been noted, this requires approval. Other Q6 suit techniques stay Q6 min even if converted into a stand-alone power. For example most of the techniques from Disease Authority and the health level reducing effect from Molecular Authority.

Dealing with the Level 5, Q min 8 powers is easier. Converted into stand-alone powers, all of them remain Q min 8. Converting baselines into novas is as global, as world shaking, as lowering the Earth’s temperature by 2 degrees and starting the next ice age. Global and world shaking with but a thought also imply Q8.