Aberrant: The Long March - Table Talk: The Long March

[Adrian Moss]

My work here is done.

[Courier]

Wow!!! 33 new posts and counting in just a few hours.

Originally Posted By: jameson (ST)

The problem is (as I see it) that Novas, even with Mega Stamina have a set lifespan. Only through Invulnerable(aging) or repeated use of Temporal Manipulation can they become 100% immortal (ageless) and there will always be somebody with the chutzpah to kill them and the power to do so.

Steve is 100% ageless, Temporal Manipulation is in theme for Amber.

More to the point, Standard nova lifespan starts at 150 years and Adaptability increases your lifespan by what, 10x?

Given 1000 years I strongly suspect most if not all of us would hit Q10.

Or at a minimum we might hit Mega-Stamina 3 at which point our lifespan extends to 2000 years (assuming) Adapt.

Originally Posted By: Adrian Moss

From Ulric's point of view, it isn't about Revenge, but about stopping an Unnatural Force from influencing the multiverse. The Watchers warp reality around them. No matter what pretty pictures they paint, it isn't the natural state of things.

Steve would agree with you... then point out that the "natural state" without their (or our) interference is the Abby war with all of nova-kind over taken by taint.

Natural doesn't mean "good".

Natural tends to mean "brutal and short".

Originally Posted By: SalmonMax

In the Watcher's case, they neither win nor lose. Their existences are essentially static. Even in their reincarnating of themselves, what's one lifetime of change and fresh experience compared to -millions of years-? Each new life is a drop in a bucket...something to concentrate here and now, to stop themselves from contemplating the realization that -this isn't going to end-. Ever.

They're actually kind of pathetic, when you think about it. Their immortality; the source of their power, robs their existence of meaning. And so they live on, day by day, century by century. Life by life. But for what? What of consequence is there for them that they haven't already experienced some version of?

*Very* well said SalmomMax.

Originally Posted By: Adrian Moss

I don't see Ulric accepting that. It's not in his personality to lie down and take it. So, he plans to fight the Watchers. He knows he's in it for the long haul. It is not about hate, because he knows hate would burn him out way before he accomplished his goal. It is about what he sees as a fundemental flaw in the design of the Multiverse. They need to be opposed and wiped out in the same way you fight a virus, or cancer.

Now, if you find the Watchers actions justifiable, if not out-right good, you won't see it Ulric's way.

Steve wouldn't agree with you, but would be willing to accompany you on this path you're on for a few centuries.

IMHO the only possible way to even start this is to hit *at* *least* Q8 and take a look at the view from there.

[jameson (ST)]

Originally Posted By: SkyLion

Thing is, since every reality is an actuality, there are an infinite of realities where Ulric would succeed and Infinite ones where he would fail. So in a way he wuld always fail because on some reality the Watcher will exist and become the Watcher(s). Unless Ulrix finds a way to unweave reality..

My brain is hurting now.


And since all things exist so does free will...the freedom to choose/create the reality/choices you make...

We are getting into paradox territory.

For the first time in a long time I can actually agree with Sky on something ...

The very nature of the multiverse as Fox has laid it out for us implies that all actions are essentially futile because there will always spin off an equal and opposite action. Essentially applying the 3rd law of motion to temporal movement in a multiversal time line.

I've been saying all along that in the end the only thing that can EVER matter is your own perspective and view point. You can make a happy place to live out your days but trying to save the many many many many worlds out there is pointless because for every one you save another is created where you fail. I don't care how good your intentions are once you realize that fact there's little point to go on beyond your personal frame of reference. Technically speaking right now there is a world out there where Cody, Steve, Carter, Omar, and all the rest were never banished by the Watchers at all, and another where they never even found out about the Watchers, and very possibly a 3rd where the Watchers killed them or mind raped them or whatever. Infinite possible time lines beget infinite possible results. The 'verse is what the 'verse is always in perfect balance.

This is the core problem I have with the cosmology as laid out, it doesn't allow for any action to mean something on the grand scale.

[Adrian Moss]

Except that the Watcher's themselves haven't acted this way. Funny, isn't it. They acted in the original timeline to send the PC's away to protect something specific - their origin. Why would they have done this if it was a futile act?

What hasn't Fox told us?

From Ulric's point of view, there isn't a problem of multiple time lines becuase they are not infinite Watchers. A finite number of Watchers means the job can be done.

[Courier]

Now that's a good point. We've been assuming that time lines with watchers split as easily as the others. Maybe they don't?

However: Just because there are an infinite number of timelines where we succeeded or failed doesn't mean I don't care if *I* succeed or fail.

[Joani]

With your approval I'd open a new fic and put everything I had in mind to finish/continue Joani's story.

Anyone that wants to participate in that fic is welcomed to colaborate. I'd most likely expect Andrew and Ulric to participate but it is not necessary. Just let me know if you want to or not. It is by far not mandatory - I can do without.

[Adrian Moss]

Ulric can rise again!

[Mr Fox]

Permission granted. Let me know if you need anything from me.

[SkyLion]

Originally Posted By: Adrian Moss

Ulric can rise again!

That's what she said!

[Joani]

ok - I will probably start the fic tomorrow. And thanks Fox, I'll get back to you when I need your input.

[Mr Fox]

Anytime. Btw, sometime this week I will actually get around to wrapping things up in the chapter.

[Joani]

sounds great!

[Joani]

Omar, Courier, Skylion - you are invited to post in Departed if you feel like saying good bye. It's an open offer.

I will continue the fic tomorrow and move on from there.

Thx

Joani

[Courier]

Wow good byes are awkward.

And since no one appears to have claimed Lorean... if no one minds, Steve has some plans for her and another temporal investigation.

[Mr Fox]

Heh, I was posting while you wrote yours.

Morgan is going back in time to muck around with history if you are interested Steve. I was planning to possibly write some fics about what he was going to do, but if you want to join him that could be expanded into something more indepth.

Otherwise Lorean can take you anywhere you would like to go, but she now has all the knowledge of her Watcher self which means she's invincible so staying with Lorean pretty much negates any plot challenges.

[Andrew Murphy]

whups, I had assume that Steve and his better half were already there. Shall I edit my post or do you want to Courier?

[Courier]

I'll edit. And Morgan's plan actually works pretty well for Steve.

He thinks we're going to find out that 10k years back isn't far enough. Someone did some serious editing of humanity when that gene first appeared.

[z028 Riley]

Also, Andrew would have discovered an interesting thing when trying to create a cure of Kyria: she doesn't have the genetic structure that causes taint. She doesn't need a cure, she's already immune.

[Andrew Murphy]

I see ... well that woulda been handy to have known when working on a cure ... oh well

[Adrian Moss]

Yep. Using the 2nd gen as a template would have been handy. Too bad we didn't look that way, especially with Ulric and Joani having their kids.

[Andrew Murphy]

I must confess that OOCly I know nothing of how the 2nd generation and up works else I would have probably made note of it in my talks with Fox.

*shrug* its certainly a moot point now eh?

[Courier]

This is pretty common in science. After you know how to do something figuring out better ways to get there becomes obvious.

[Mr Fox]

Ok, guys. Joani, Ulric and Andrew, you guys can create a thread for your adventures. Courier and I will be in our own thread.

I will be petitioning Chosen for a pair of new forum topics. One will be for each of the current groups of characters. I'll also be archiving up the rest of the LM threads.

[Joani]

Thank you Fox. Please give me some time before I start the new Fic. I need to focus on my new game first before I can free up some creative energy for Joani again.

I suppose by end of the week I'll have it set up.

[Courier]

Interesting Fiction you have going there guys... but 1930 with the resources you have? Late to the game, at this point many troubles aren't avoidable.

[Joani]

thx - they jumped to the day about one year before the cabal picked up Joani back then. That was her choice.

[Andrew Murphy]

,,

Originally Posted By: Courier

Interesting Fiction you have going there guys... but 1930 with the resources you have? Late to the game, at this point many troubles aren't avoidable.

Gonna have to disagree, the Cabal started when they did because we were stuck but I don't feel that what we did was the best way to proceed. For starters the tampering with free will IMO tainted all that we worked toward in that timeline. Michael's takeover of the human hive mind (consenting or otherwise) just serves to underscore that fact to me.

[Courier]

Granted... but it puts all of you in an interesting situation.

You want a 'normal' life and unlike the first group you have 'ethics'... but something like 100 million people are going to die in savage wars pretty soon.

For that matter, if Super-girl and the rest of the super-friends turn up, the Gov will ask them for help with the war(s) and the depression, etc. Politicians wanting to have their picture taken with you will be the least of your problems.

Andrew has the cure for cancer... but handing out that technology probably means giving this world access to bio-weapons. Give a chimp a revolver and you should expect bad things.

In RL, not making a move is a move.

[Andrew Murphy]

I'll grant that foreknowledge of events brings one to a slick slope but even if Andrew and Ulric spent all their time between now and the onset of WW2 they are only a dozen men, without compromising their moral/ethical choices I doubt that they could prevent the war.

This whole thing reminds me of the classic time traveler's conundrum. If you COULD go back and kill Hitler would you? And would that make the world a better place or merely allow some other terrible sequence of events to take place. We're trying to make the most of what we can. Horrible events like WW2 are part of life however, and I don't think Andrew or Ulric would be willing to stop WW2 if it meant having to resort to the kinds of measures that the Cabal did between 1924 and the 1940's

[Joani]

Courier - it is not about doing things "better" than the cabal did. I honestly think you cannot compare that and who would be the arbiter to decide what is better or not?

The focus about these "Super-friends" as you labeled us is that they do things their way within limits that are different to what the cabal initially did.

Joani would never agree to kill anybody. She would defend and save that person and see that if he is a menace to society that he is brought to justice. But she won't be the judge - that's something the people need to do. She won't assume a Leadership position. She will politely decline and leave to do what she does.

If people address her she'll see what she can do within her own parameters of "right" and "wrong". If politicians invite her she surely will do the charity part - but nothing like the Paragons or the creation of a Justice League.

We are far away from that and that is not the goal. Most importantly its a fiction that portrays the path not the end.

[Courier]

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This whole thing reminds me of the classic time traveler's conundrum. If you COULD go back and kill Hitler would you?

IMHO you have to make the best choices based on the information that you have.

And Hitler IMHO gets more a share of historical evil than he deserves. Hitler was a student of Stalin's methods, meaning IMHO if you need to take someone out you're better off with removing Stalin.

If you removed Hitler right this moment I'm not sure if it'd be better or worse for the world unless you also removed Stalin (which admittedly goes a long way to prove your point).

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I'll grant that foreknowledge of events brings one to a slick slope but even if Andrew and Ulric spent all their time between now and the onset of WW2 they are only a dozen men, without compromising their moral/ethical choices I doubt that they could prevent the war.

Exactly.

Ergo their hands will remain blood free (a good thing)... but their knees will be soaked if they ever step out onto the street (not a good thing).

Ultimately my argument is that with great power comes great responsibility, and by keeping your hands clean you're shirking yours (which means it's good that Steve is off with Morgan conquering the world ).

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If people address her she'll see what she can do within her own parameters of "right" and "wrong". If politicians invite her she surely will do the charity part - but nothing like the Paragons or the creation of a Justice League.

Which brings to the issue of whether or not you go public.

[jameson (ST)]

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Ultimately my argument is that with great power comes great responsibility, and by keeping your hands clean you're shirking yours (which means it's good that Steve is off with Morgan conquering the world wink ).

So by not sacrificing men like Hitler and Stalin ( and Hirohito I suppose) to prevent WW2 we are shirking our responsibility? I'm sure I don't agree at all. Its a Catch-22 IMO we can save millions by killing a few but either way there are dead men to lay at our feet from your point of view. Frankly though just because we have knowledge of WW2 doesn't make it our responsibility.

We can assume that responsibility but we choose not to, the people of this world live with freedom of choice, and part of that means that the path to war will be paved by the choices of men free to decide their own actions, NOT men who have been coerced or programmed to act and NOT by men who find themselves replacing suddenly dead leaders.

If anything I would argue that Andrew and Ulric are making the tough choice to do things the hard way by inserting ourselves into the world and working from within to effect change and not from without.

[Courier]

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Frankly though just because we have knowledge of WW2 doesn't make it our responsibility... We can assume that responsibility but we choose not to...

The responsibility comes with the power. Clinton was wrong to not act against Bin Laudin in the 90's when he could have.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -- Edmund Burke

(Also from Burke) “Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.”

[SalmonMax]

It's worth pointing out that WWII was not one man's war. Hitler didn't just magically become Germany's dictator. He was elected. Why was he elected? Because of economic, political, and social pressures that Germany was experiencing.

Things like wars, especially World Wars, are the results of forces far greater than individuals. Our knowledge of history is a bit distorted because we tend to focus on so-called "great men," single people who seem to embody broad events. But that's not really how history works. Events on a global scale are the result of aggregate behavior on the part of populations.

If you want to avert WWII, change the circumstances that led to it. But be warned that the results might not be any better...and could concievably be worse.

...

Damn, now I wish non-Watcher Meri was there.

[Courier]

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It's worth pointing out that WWII was not one man's war. Hitler didn't just magically become Germany's dictator. He was elected. Why was he elected? Because of economic, political, and social pressures that Germany was experiencing.

True... but there's two ways to argue that. One is that Hitler made a bad situation much worse (the Holocaust stands out). The other is that if someone else had taken over Hitler's role Germany might have won the war.

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Our knowledge of history is a bit distorted because we tend to focus on so-called "great men," single people who seem to embody broad events. But that's not really how history works. Events on a global scale are the result of aggregate behavior on the part of populations.

*Maybe*. Someone other than Lincoln's predecessor might have headed off the civil war (this would have been hard), or at the very least have prepared the north better or it. Someone other than Lincoln might have allowed the South to leave rather than pay the price in blood to stop them.

Stalin's invention of the totalitarian state might have been inevitable, but China had fireworks for centuries before it was used for firearms so maybe not.

*Someone* would have eventually discovered the theory of Gravity and Evolution so kill Darwin's grandfather and he'd be replaced... but Karl Marx's invention of Communism wasn't based on reality so remove him from history and we might have been better off.

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Damn, now I wish non-Watcher Meri was there.

If Steve were there he'd basically become a villain by the other PC's standards. Right now the government is getting ready to step in and make the depression *MUCH* worse, he'd try to step in and talk people out of it using his mega-socials.

[jameson (ST)]

Originally Posted By: SalmonMax

It's worth pointing out that WWII was not one man's war. Hitler didn't just magically become Germany's dictator. He was elected. Why was he elected? Because of economic, political, and social pressures that Germany was experiencing.

Things like wars, especially World Wars, are the results of forces far greater than individuals. Our knowledge of history is a bit distorted because we tend to focus on so-called "great men," single people who seem to embody broad events. But that's not really how history works. Events on a global scale are the result of aggregate behavior on the part of populations.

If you want to avert WWII, change the circumstances that led to it. But be warned that the results might not be any better...and could concievably be worse.

...

Damn, now I wish non-Watcher Meri was there.

Thanks Max, I was trying to say that but it never quite came out so well. Yes Andrew and Ulric are going to allow the deaths of thousands, possibly millions, of people but the earth will come out better for it.

Originally Posted By: Courier

(Also from Burke) “Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.”

You see I agree with that statement and allowing WW2 to happen in the wake of WW1 will illustrate that point to the world. It will be used to galvanize the politics of the time toward making a better, stronger, world government with the goal of seeing that this kind of thing never happens. In the wake of WW1 the League of Nations fell apart in the wake of WW2 the UN was formed. If we can shepherd and strengthen the UN, and do so IN FULL PUBLIC VIEW, we can set a standard and an example.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Ian Malcolm

Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Ian Malcolm

I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here: it didn't require any discipline to attain it. You read what others had done and you took the next step. You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility... for it. You stood on the shoulders of geniuses to accomplish something as fast as you could and before you even knew what you had ...

Just because we CAN act as Gods on earth doesn't imply that we should ... or WILL. Further what worth is peace if mankind does not achieve it through its own faltering steps, the learning, the experience, helps to guide society.

[SalmonMax]

Originally Posted By: Courier

True... but there's two ways to argue that. One is that Hitler made a bad situation much worse (the Holocaust stands out). The other is that if someone else had taken over Hitler's role Germany might have won the war.

I didn't intend this part as an argument so much as a statement of premise. I was trying to say that it's folly to assume that complex historical events can be materially changed with relatively small actions like removing a single individual. Continuing the example of WWII, I'd contend that removing Hitler could have had very little impact on how things went. He was far from the only charismatic, anti-semetic man in Germany at the time. He was elected by popular vote. Anyone who could have captured the eye of the public could have been Fuhrer. And the Nazis would have been quick to embrace them, then use them.

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*Maybe*. Someone other than Lincoln's predecessor might have headed off the civil war (this would have been hard), or at the very least have prepared the north better or it. Someone other than Lincoln might have allowed the South to leave rather than pay the price in blood to stop them.

*blipped for brevity*

None of this is really what I was trying to get at. My point was that, when studying history and historical events, it's a mistake to focus too much on specific individuals, even if they seem pivotal. The causes of these events are more complex than they seem. Darwin, for example, didn't go to the Galapagos "just because." And Communism came from Marx's appraisal of the horrifying sacrifices of life and limb that were the hallmark of worker conditions in the early Industrial Revolution...not a crazed rant with no basis in the real world.

I make no argument as to the 'correctness' of evolution or Communism. I only say that you can't say, "Karl Marx invented Communism" and leave it at that if you want to understand things. And changing things you don't understand is very risky.

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If Steve were there he'd basically become a villain by the other PC's standards. Right now the government is getting ready to step in and make the depression *MUCH* worse, he'd try to step in and talk people out of it using his mega-socials.

That'd be pretty villainous unless Steve had the benefit of hindsight so that he KNEW current actions would make things worse. And of course, if he had those facts, he could probably present a good explanation and convince people even without mega socials. But if he doesn't know for sure, then it's just one man's opinion. And if one man's opinion can override the will of the people (as expressed via elected representatives), then you are advocating the replacement of republic/democracy with autocracy.

Which I doubt is really what you'd want to do.

[Joani]

+sighs+ It's just a fic guys... I'm not claiming to have it perfectly thought through - I just want to portray some aspects of the PC(s) that we haven't found the time in the game itself.

And... I felt like it was a good idea.

[SalmonMax]

Hee hee, by this point none of this is really about the fic anymore. The fic is cool, keep it up.

[Courier]

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Continuing the example of WWII, I'd contend that removing Hitler could have had very little impact on how things went. He was far from the only charismatic, anti-semetic man in Germany at the time. He was elected by popular vote. Anyone who could have captured the eye of the public could have been Fuhrer. And the Nazis would have been quick to embrace them, then use them.

That's why I said that Hitler gets more than his fair share of evil from history.

You could make a similar argument about President Buchanan (i.e. the South would break away from the North sooner or later), and even Bush (there's a strong argument a President Gore would have invaded Iraq). Similarly while Darwin was ahead of his time, evolution would have been discovered by the microscope's discovery of genes if nothing else. Ditto Bill Gates, & Gutenberg... someone else would have taken their role sooner or later.

Others are less clear. Einstein had an extremely unusual brain and he was dealing with things that to my eye don't have the weight of history behind. Ditto Marx, using the power of the state to make life better is obvious; Convincing everyone that forcing people at gun point to give up their farms will lead to more food is not. Bin Laudin founded Al-Quida, without his money and Charisma they probably wouldn't exist.

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That'd be pretty villainous unless Steve had the benefit of hindsight so that he KNEW current actions would make things worse.

What level of proof do you want? Steve has the judgment of history and economics on his side.

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And of course, if he had those facts, he could probably present a good explanation and convince people even without mega socials.

Unfortunately that's not true. The entire economic community KNEW that Smoot-Hartley would put a "Great" in front of the Depression, more than 1000 of them signed a letter trying to stop Hoover from enacting it.