Another Version of the Unified Aeon Theory

[Heru]

Okay, I didn't know where else to put this idea so I am putting it here. As with many of my threads, it is a posting of my thoughts, concepts and opinions on a non-canon way to organize things if people want to.

These are my opinions, not canon fact (in the extrapolation sense) and so I respectfully wish for thoughts, but not dismissals. If you think what I am saying is completely absurd and not worthy of thought, then don't post. All others, welcome.

++

This article is going to look at Humans which is the starting point of what I am talking about. Humans can either be neutrals or latents. Neutrals have no genetic potential for super abilities, Latents have untapped potentials to become something more than what they are presently. Their is nothing beyond the Neutral category, if you are born a neutral than you will always be a neutral.

Latents, on the other hand, have a special genetic single that allows them to unlock one of four special categories. This categories are paramorph, psychomorph, eximorph, and veritamorph. (Yes, I created the fourth category entirely, it has no basis in canon, but please follow me for a moment.) Once one becomes one of the categories they are incapable of every becoming one of the others, the activation of a power strain permanently forbids access to the others.

The first three categories - paramorph, psychomorph, and eximorph - use only one-third of the total energy in existence. Paramorphs can be either Daredevils/Exemplars or Superiors (I need a better name that fits the standards of the other names). Psychomorphs can be Mesmerists, Psiads or Psions. It should be noted that the true advanced state of a Mesmerist is that of a Psiad, not a Psion. A Psion is what occurs when an alien race genetically tinkers with the human genome. Eximorphs can be Stalwarts or Novas. For Novas there also exist the state of Aberrant (and then sub-aberrant from that) as well as 2nd-Gen, which is a purer form of the nova state.

The first level of the three categories (mesmerists, exemplars, stalwarts) utilize what is considered Telluric Energy. This is a single type of energy that is flavored by the being that is using it - mesmerists use Telluric that has psi elements, stalwarts use that which is quantum elements, and exemplars use it that is fate aligned (open to a different concept for exemplars).

The second (and beyond) level of the three categories (psiads/psions, superiors, novas/aberrants/2nd-gen) utilize their actual energy type, and no longer touch the basic united energy of Telluric. Psiads/psions use Psi energy (also known as sub-quantum), novas/aberrants/2nd-gen use quantum energy. Finally, the superiors use fate energy (again, a better name is needed).

The second level individuals are capable of producing works that completely surpass anything conceivable by the first level individuals. But it should also be noted that a first level individual, who has reached the greatest level of potential of his type, can actually mutate into a second level. In game terms this means having Inspiration 10 and paying various costs. As a second level of there type (so mesmerists can become psiads, stalwarts can become novas, and exemplars can become superiors) they gain access to all the abilities of the new type, as well as some extra benefits. For example, stalwarts who become novas gain some resistance to Taint, like a 2nd-gen does.

The fourth category - veritamorph - is a specialized category. Those of this level utilize the true energy of all things in its entirety, rather than only one-third of it. Because of the nature of their power source, there are no first level veritamorphs. In other words, they do not have any individuals who are equal to mesmerists, stalwarts or exemplars. The second level veritamorph are known as channelers and do not utilize Telluric energy, as it is called, rather they use Essence (yes, I did go there). When latents become channelers the entire special genetic characteristic activates, not just one third of it (which also blocks the other two-thirds from ever forming). This provides them access to great levels of power and capability without the nasty side-effects that the other three types have (no taint, no being unstuck in time, and no noetic disturbance and such). They do have their own issues, but it is a lot less risky. The problem, of course, is that the human physical form is incapable (at this time in humanity's development) of actually safely being a veritamorph.

There is also a level three, and this level represents those individuals who surpass (within their field) the capabilities that anybody else is capable of achieving. The terms used to describe such individuals is either Primarch or Proxy. There are four primarchs, one for each category, and they are unsurpassed and unequaled in their mastery of their energy. The proxies are those that were created by the Doyn during their project, and each proxy is unequaled by other psions in their mastery and capability in using one aptitude of psychic ability. It should be noted that the noetic primarch is far superior to the psion proxies.

The original Hammersmith Event released Telluric Energy throughout the world, causing the age of mesmerists, stalwarts and exemplars to appear. Those present at the time of the activation of the device had various things happen to them. Those present that were Neutrals were killed right on the spot, the energy overloaded them and found no purchase in their genetic structure. Calvin Hammersmith himself, being the closest to the actual event, was completely saturated with true Telluric energy, thus Essence energy. His body disintegrated right their on the spot. And while everybody thought he died, he did not, he was remade by the energy. Hammerismith was veritamorph primarch. Nearby to it was Max Mercer who was washed in the energy and became the paramorph primarch. Michael Donighal, also known as Divis Mal, was the eximorph primarch. Finally, there was another person (who has no basis in canon) named Zacharia Smith who became the psychomorph primarch. Those present at more distant places in the chamber became mesmerists, stalwarts or exemplars.

It should be noted that while a first level can become a second level of their type, a second level cannot be a first level. Activation of greater potential cannot be denied to force a person to become lesser than they are. It should also be noted that despite the second level being an advanced form of the first level, a person can manifest the abilities of the second level without going through the first level.

I should also note that while the primarchs of the first three groups can make others like themselves (in the sense of touching their own energy, not in the sense of equal power), the fourth (Dr. Hammersmith) cannot. (Divis Mal would use this ability to crate N-Day in 1998.) Hammersmith is an anomaly and is incapable of causing others to become Essence users. It should also be noted that if the three other primarchs unite their singularly focused energies under the responsibility of Hammersmith then a wave of Essence energy can spread around the world - causing the creation of huge numbers of Channelers of Essence.

I also had an idea that humanity's future would go in waves. Some eras would be dominated by the Adventurers (mesmerists, stalwarts and exemplars), others would be Quantum Eras, others would be Noetic Eras. And even some would be Fated Eras (the age of the Superiors). The ages would interchange over and over again for millions of years. Eventually, as humanity's genetic structure would advance, a state would appear when individuals would be able to become Channelers. This would happen at least once and change things for near forever. In cannon it goes Adventure, Quantum, Noetic, and probably right now Adventure though the setting stopped being produced so I cannot say.

Terms

Paramorph - Those that utilize fate energy. They are connected to space and time. Exemplars and Superiors are of this type.

Psychomorph - Those that utilize noetic energy. They are mesmerists and psiads, psions.

Eximorph - Those that utilize quantum energy. They are stalwarts and novas.

Veritamorph - Those that utilize Essence. They are channelers.

Telluric Energy - The energy used by mesmerists, stalwarts and exemplars. It is a very basic level of energy that is flavored by fate, quantum or subquantum energies.

Quantum Energy - The energy used by novas.

Noetic Energy - Also known as sub-quantum energy, this is used by psiads and psions.

Essence - The combination energy that unites the previous three forms of energy. This type of energy is even more fundamental to existence.

++

So that is it. That is what I came up with. In many ways it goes along with what one has seen in the setting, and in other ways it is a departure. Now, I am not saying that I am automatically adopting this into any game I run, but I thought this was an interesting thought piece and thus worth posting on this forum. There must be some others who are interested in this line of thought. And I welcome others presenting the ideas on how to make this more interesting, developed and cool.

[metaphysician]

Nice idea, somewhat major problem: quantum manipulators can become full blown, universe-creating gods. What, exactly, would make a veritamorph special or superior, compared with that?

This is why I, sometimes, think a useful retcon would be that 'quantum' manipulation is the core of all superhuman power. Adventure characters are just very low level, with the apparent distinctions being just that: apparent. The Doyen are not harmed by quantum, but rather by taint, which is a mutated side effect of ill-controlled quantum manipulation. The Doyen want to destroy humanity because of both taint being harmful to them, and because their carefully constructed species-wide ascension has ultimately put a ceiling on their power, which humanity has the potential to greatly surpass. Thus, they introduce a very carefully constructed, limited, taint free series of quantum effects, calling it 'psionics', in order to turn humanity into something safe and useful.

This probably has a dozen separate holes, but its an idea.

[Rorx]

Superiors are more on the same level as Daredevils as they are unable to buy Knacks etc, but can purchase some/all Trinity Merits with XP. This is due to their artificial nature, just as Psions are artificial/limited Psiads.

Interesting point is that in creating the Superiors the Nihon found a may to reset the genetic disposition for a psiad or Nova then force it into the Daredevil line and artificially trigger it to create the Superior. Theoretically that means that you could take any latent and turn them into any other latent type, with the probable exception of our new type.

You also missed the obvious expansion of powers that will come with the future generations of Psychomorphs as well as Eximorphs (of which there are only guidelines for 2nd and perhaps 3rd gen).

[Heru]

metaphysician,

That is a very good question. I figure that the problem with novas and becoming full blown gods is that the worry of Taint probably stops most of them ever actually reaching that potential.

Of course the fact that I actually haven't created a splat for the Channelers makes it a little hard for me to immediately describe their power levels. But I figure that what they do is very stable in terms of sacrifice of their body - they do not have to worry about Taint or any such thing. Their powers are quite immense and world shacking but are not so individualistic and unique. And while this is not a complete picture, I kinda see it a little like the Solar Exalted - their powers are immense but are not individually (as in each individual charm) that major, its when they take it all together.

My idea is that while novas have a node, and psions become intune with the universe, the Channelers go through the Becoming which causes a cocoon of Essence to form around them, supercharging and reforming their physical, noetic, quantum, and 'spiritual' self, allowing their forms to safely be able to channel Essence energy.

Your second point is really cool. I love the idea that psions are actually just limited novas, that is really cool. And it has all sorts of great potentials. The nova-psions would eventually realize that they could break through the artificial structure allowing them access to greater levels of power but at the same time keeping their immunity to Taint. I like that, it has great potential.

Rorx,

About Superiors, yeah, I know. But I didn't have any alternate name to describe what I was going with so I just recycled that. I know their power is no more than the Daredevils of Adventure!.

As to your second point, yeah I agree. My thought is that their is but a single super genetic sequence, and in that sequence is the ability to become a nova, psiad or superior (for a lack of a name, I need a name but I do not have one). The options for turn on is one or all, not two or three. The fourth category is not really a fourth part of the sequence it is actually the entire sequence activated at once. The other three categories are just one-third of the sequence activated. And yeah, I do very much think that the scientists of Trinity (and Aberrant era) era society would be able to figure out the frequency or whatever to forciably cause the activation of one of the three parts. The activation of all four requires an advancement of the human biology to levels it is not currently at.

On your third point, I decided that the future develops of nova is the 2nd-gen (and all future descendants of that as one category, they could be called the Trues) and the Aberrants (who also have sub-aberrants as a minor spin off). I figure that after a certain point of time novas reach a status quo, and that no matter what all novas have to worry about Taint (some have to worry more than others, but even the 100th generation true nova still has some taint issues).

As for not figuring out the psychomorphs (and the same with paramorphs) yeah that is kinda true. I figure that psiad is the TRUE version of the nova equivalent for psychomorphs, with the psions being a fake version. The idea is that a psiad would have the right to use all Aptitudes without having to worry about being restricted to only one. But I am definitely willing, and wanting, to hear about the various other descendant options. The more ideas the more full this article might be.

[Rorx]

Novas and Taint: Not so sure that it will always be such a big problem for them. Have you seen the stuff in 'A Breed Apart'? 2nd Gen True Nova, i.e. those with low Taint parents, get some hefty bonuses to resist or simply not accumulate Taint and these would presumably get better with further generations. Yes they will still get Taint in some situations, but as the generations go on those circumstances will likely get rarer...

Psychomorph future Gen: Yep basically with more generations the chance of self-triggering goes up a lot and the ceiling on dots fades out, starting Psi increases, and access to QK comes in. Merits like Mode natural, and others become universal as time goes on

Personally I prefer to keep Psychomorphs and Nova separate, there is no need to combine them and it makes more sense of your 4th stream if they are separate.

[Heru]

Rorx,

Psychomorphs and Eximorphs are separate, I didn't change that. Novas and psiads/psions never come together. Neither does their third brother, Paramorphs. All three groups are completely separate aspects of the same basic genetic sequence that can be switched to go into six directions (if you consider the level one of each and the level two of each different, than yeah, its six options). The seventh option is what happens when all three aspects of the genetic sequence activates at once.

This is one of those areas that I agree and disagree depending on how I am looking at things. If I am looking at things from an entirely canon viewpoint (and thus ignoring this entire thread), then yeah, the more one has nova ancestors the more and more they are resistant to Taint. Eventually, they will reach a point in which they physical, genetic and quantum forms are so capable that they will have no Taint at all.

But, if you use the idea of the theory I propose here than you have to say that the problems of the three separate categories can never be removed. That no matter what Taint exists and must be worried about. That the actual true form of the genetic sequence is one in which all three parts activate as one, rather than just a fraction of the total.

So yeah, in a canon game the more nova ancestors the more resistant to Taint you get, in the variant one, Taint is always present at a fundamental basic level of being a nova.

Psychomorphs. Okay, I agree with you. If we were looking at my example as an organization chart, the section listing Psiad would have multiple things inside of it. The more ability you have the greater power you are, but no matter what you always remain a Psiad. The section listing for Psion, on the otherhand, would have a number of options inside it, but at a certain point the Psion would transcend his psion nature and become a Psiad.

I hope that makes sense.

I also want to say thanks for the ideas. They are appreciated.

++

Some questions I pose to all reading this. And may I ask that any answers readers might give to take into account the points I made in the original (and I guess subsequent) post. Thanks

1) What is the actual type of energy that Paramorphs use?

2) What would be the name of the second level Paramorphs. Daredevils (or exemplars) is the first level.

3) Do you guys think that there should be a first level before that of Channeler within the veritamorph category.

4) What sorts of powers do you think that veritamorphs should have?

5) What sorts of powers do you think that the the second level Paramorphs should have? Following that, what disadvantage (the equivalent of Taint) do you think they should have?

[Rorx]

Bright Continent in 2123 proposed to have a 2nd chamber that can remove the Aptitude limit on Psions and effctively turn them back into active Psiads, although without the cap on 4 dots in Modes as they may already be beyond that. In another couple of years, perhaps less they would have come up with a tank that could do the same but going straight from latents to active Psiada types.

It is these that would provide the parents for most of the 2nd Gen Psychomorphs, or perhaps the children of Psion should be 2nd gen and the children of these types be listed as 3rd gen?

Given how powerful Novas can get with Planck Scaling etc, I see little reason for another type that is some how meant to be even more powerful

[Alex Green]

The Psions have the Proxies, the Novas have Q6+, but with the possible exception of Max, I'm not sure we have any evidence that Daredevils have an advanced (or 2nd generational) form.

[Forge]

If you think what I am saying is completely absurd and not worthy of thought, then don't post.

::biggrin

[Heru]

Rorx,

Exactly, if they go through the process they stop being Psions and become Psiads once again. Hence my point that Psiads are the true advanced form of mesmerists and not psions.

So yeah, I agree with you on that.

In my view, the children of Psions are still Psions and thus stuck to one Aptitude. The children of Psiads are Psiads and thus are not.

But honestly, whether they are the 2nd generation or not, they remain Psiads and thus they fit under the Psiad area of my article.

As to your last point, that is fine. Humanity is not ready for the kind of power that the Channelers can bring to forward. So they do not have a splat yet. But it is an option that I find interesting for my variant setting purposes. Because I like the idea of the question of what would happen if all three components of the genetic sequence activated at once. Canon says they cannot, that it is impossible, I say that it is possible and that it would be cool.

Alex Green,

Your right, we do not have any canon evidence to support the idea that just like novas are second level stalwarts and psiads are second level mesmerists, that there is a second level to the daredevil. But I like to think that that is not true and that the standards the other two of set apply to the third.

Proxies are, by the way, in the article's view, primarchs of one aptitude rather than of noetic energy in its entirety (like the first noetic primarch).

Quantum 6 novas are just like Psiads with 6 dots in an Aptitude (you know, that which the Doyn have but probably forbid in humanity).

[Rorx]

Children of Psions and Psiads are both genetically the same, latents mainly, but with a higher than 1st Gen chance to self-trigger as a psiad. If they don't self trigger then they either go through life as a neutral, there potential unrecognised or they get detected as a latent and run through a chamber and turned into a Psion.

Doyen don't have 6 dots in an Aptitude, no higher than 5 dots exist. However like Psiads they do have ratings in most/all Aptitudes and can have several at 5 dots, as well as more Psi pts than a Pison/Psiad normally gets. They have listed stats in a couple of the published campaign/scenario books.

[metaphysician]

I tend to think they should have the equivalent of Mode Natural in all Modes, though.

[Rorx]

I tend to think they should have the equivalent of Mode Natural in all Modes, though.

I can't remember what they have in canon offhand, but if I was writing it for myself I think I'd only pick certain Modes or Aptitudes for them to have Natural ability in.

[Alex Green]

Quantum 6 novas are just like Psiads with 6 dots in an Aptitude (you know, that which the Doyn have but probably forbid in humanity).

Q6 novas have access to the Mastery Extra and the Q5 min powers; Psiads don't. Basically a Psiad can never have a power that relates to taint or that requires taint in order to purchase it.

This is even true for the Proxies, yes, they're powerful, but they're not powerful in the "snap your fingers and destroy a city" type of way. A city block perhaps or space station (same difference), but their powers are apparently measured in dozens of meters, not dozens of kilometers.

[Finbar]

Some obvious issues:

1) If 2nd Generation Novas are supposed to have resistant re: Taint, then why do so many Trinity-era novas have serious Taint issues? It would seem that they would care less about the effects of Taint, and would actually welcome it(a la Chrysalis).

2) As others have noted, novas have the possibility of creating universes, and seriously affecting their native universe. And there are more powerful people than that? And if they are capable of creating more of the base users, then why haven't they?

3) It's been established in canon that humans that become novas and humans that become psions/psiads have the same genetic switch; it's entirely possible that one identical twin could become a nova and another could become a psion. Until that genetic switch is thrown, the person could just as likely be either nova as a psion/psiad.

4) Although it's unpopular, I would still argue that Daredevils, Mesmerists, and Stalwarts are closer to each other than Mesmerists/Psions/Psiads or Stalwarts/Novas. The various Adventurer types can use Telluric energy to accomplish various things, including manipulating the universe to protect them. It's worth noting that, excluding access to Super Science and knacks, there is virtually no difference between the three of them. Although it could be argued that Stalwarts>Mesmerists>Daredevils, it can't be argued that they use Telluric energy, which appears to be a combination of psi and quantum energy.

In essence, I think that it could be argued that Daredevils are an underdeveloped version of Mesmerists, who in turn are underdeveloped Stalwarts easier than Mesmerists being underdeveloped Psions or Stalwarts being underdeveloped Novas, especially given that they are giving up control over the universe in order to evolve. ALthough that makes sense for Stalwarts, it doesn't make so sense for Mesmerists.

For what it's worth....

FR

[Alex Green]

1) If 2nd Generation Novas are supposed to have resistant re: Taint, then why do so many Trinity-era novas have serious Taint issues? It would seem that they would care less about the effects of Taint, and would actually welcome it(a la Chrysalis).

I'd argue that most Trinity "novas" aren't 2nd gen. Some are Baselines warped into cannon fodder, others are people who shouldn't have erupted in the first place, others might even by baselines infected with taint diseases.

4) Although it's unpopular, I would still argue that Daredevils, Mesmerists, and Stalwarts are closer to each other than Mesmerists/Psions/Psiads or Stalwarts/Novas.

I sort of agree with this. The A! types are weak enough that a quantum user could still have a Psi signature, etc. They don't get all exclusive until they go further down that path.

In essence, I think that it could be argued that Daredevils are an underdeveloped version of Mesmerists...

Interesting idea.

[Heru]

Rorx

I agree with you that the children of Psions and Psiads are the same, except in my view that the Prometheus Effect changes how things are supposed to operate, making you a Psion rather than a true Psiad. You can break through that genetic tampering, and regian Psiadness, but it is not easy.

Honestly, while this is just my view and it is not backed by anything, pretty much every other White Wolf splat has access to powers of the sixth to 10 range - Vampires, Mages, Amenti, Werewolves, etc. Even the Exalted. So, my thought is that while they have not been printed yet, such things do exist for those that have reached uber level of opinion.

metaphysician

There naturally noetic energy, right, which means they are capable of doing things with their thoughts that make other Psiads seem like children. Bending and uniting various aptitudes together to create single effects. I wouldn't be surprised if the best way to represent them was to use the free-form rules while other psions use the dot rule.

Rorx

But hasn't it been proven that the separation into one Aptitude is an artificial limitation they put on humanity for their science experiments. If that is true then more than likely they have grown beyond having aptitudes and just exist as capable psiads in all fields.

Alex Green

Like I said, I personally beleive that there are level 5 psionic powers. It makes sense from the type of designing that White Wolf puts in. Though such things do not exist in print right now, I do think they exist. I also think that the Proxies are pretty much beyond the normal psiads in their particular aptitude - so yes, I do think from a story prospective a proxy could effect a city or larger.

But, as I said, this belief is not supported by canon, but it does make sense in light of the unifed aeon theory that I created, I think.

Finbar

1) Like Alex, I would say that with the exception of novas from Eden and those from India (or Japan, whichever country makes novas, I forget) all novas are Aberrants rather than 2nd gen. Also, 2nd-gen novas are only born from two nova parents, not through eruption from baseline parents (unless your Divis Mal, but if you are then all rules are thrown out.)

2) Well, in my view, yes there is a type of people more powerful than that. But actually only one man - Hammersmith himself - exists in that category. No other human can reach that level until millions of years of future genetic evolution exist. I also have had it that contrary to Divis Mal making novas, and the Psiad primarch making psiads, the Channeler primarch cannot make other channelers. They can only be made if the other three primarchs get together and unite their powers in a specialized N-Day thing.

My vision is that their powers, though more epic than novas, are also more controlled and buildable. They are a chain of powers getting ever increasingly more potent as one gets toward infinity, rather than epic power right here right now. By the time a Channeler reaches universe creation powers his ability to handle the power at his fingertips also rose to the level of making it safe.

3) Yeah, I agree. Of course, I consider it that the same genetic sequence has actually three components - super-Daredevil, Nova and Psiad - rather than just two. Also, some components of each sequence can activate making a character a regular-Daredevil, Mesmerist or Stalwart. But I agree with you point.

4) I actually agree with this as well, well to a point. I do think that Mesmerists are lesser emodiments of Psiads/Psions, and Stalwarts are the lesser version of Novas, same with Daredevils and super-Daredevils. But I do think that while novas use quantum energy, and psiads use noetic energy, Stalwarts/Daredevils/Mesmerists use Telluric Energy which is flavored toward their particular type just a bit more than it is to the other two types. But this flavoring of the energy is not enough to remove them from the natural abilities of the other types of energy - hence, Stalwarts having a noetic pattern.

[Finbar]

Rorx

But hasn't it been proven that the separation into one Aptitude is an artificial limitation they put on humanity for their science experiments. If that is true then more than likely they have grown beyond having aptitudes and just exist as capable psiads in all fields.

Actually, this is canon, as per the APB. It's been noted that the QK wouldn't be possible without the tanks, and that it was created specifically to make human psions limited, possibly as a compromise between the two faction of Doyenne.

Alex Green

Like I said, I personally beleive that there are level 5 psionic powers. It makes sense from the type of designing that White Wolf puts in. Though such things do not exist in print right now, I do think they exist. I also think that the Proxies are pretty much beyond the normal psiads in their particular aptitude - so yes, I do think from a story prospective a proxy could effect a city or larger.

[Heru]

Two notes:

1) Level 5 powers are actually part of the rules. Also, Level 6 powers have been hinted at. Bue can possess people indefinitely, Atwan has done some truly impressive stunts involving teleportation, Pai de Norca has supposedly split himself into at least 12 selves, and Cassel is just scary.

I mistyped and didn't even realize it. I meant that the 6+ range of powers, rather than the 5th level.

Aren't you making my point then, if such mega level abilities are hinted at them maybe higher level than 5 powers exist - and if they exist for Proxies they exist for Doyn and probably super-Psions and older Psiads.

2) Given what you can do with Warping 5, I definitely think that city-wide effects are definitely possible.

I completely agree with this statement, and even more, I think it makes sense from an internal setting perspective.

I was purposely excluding Edenites and Japan (where novas with too much Taint are killed). I was extrapolating that, given the possibilities of Chrysalis, not all novas would stick to human-appealing forms, and would explore the possibilities. In short, I'm not seeing any reason that novas would not explore Taint, especially as they could bleed it into Chrysalis....

That is actually a very very interesting and thought provoking point. If we go with that idea, and add it to my original theory, then the first level of nova is nova, the second is Aberrant (which is an insane tainted nova), 2nd-gen (which is a sane advanced nova), and then maybe a third category of nova creature with taint but without the insanity that also goes with it normally. This would be the level of those with Chrysalis. I like that idea very much.

Again, the problem isn't necessarily that such beings exist, but that you already have beings that are already at that power level. Between Universe Creation, Planck Scaling, and the various level 4/5 powers, you already have some serious power running around. What could they do that a Q10 nova couldn't? Also, why are there only three? The cost must be pretty nasty, and, if so, why would they bother?

There aren't only three, there is only 1 - Hammersmith himself is the only Channeler in existence due to being at the very center of the maelstrom that was his experiment.

And I don't know what they are capable of, because I did not create a splat for them. Their powers, like I said, are more than likely similar in some ways to the charms of the Exalted - that it takes slow buildup of capability using ever increasing power levels. These power levels are safe and efficient and provide non-corrupting power to the target.

And the reason that Hammersmith is the only Channeler in existence is that he was the only one actually at the center of the blast, the others were farther back and became the nova primarch (Divis Mal), daredevil primarch (Max Mercer), and psiad primarch. Human genetics are not at the level where the activation of all three strains of the same genetic code is possible in one person at one time.

But, yes, I do think that at really really epic Channeler levels the ability to create universes and all that should exist - except it would exist in a somewhat more stable and efficient manner.

Stalwarts have a noetic pattern; everyone does, even novas. However, with novas the field is seen as a dark area because of the suffusion of quantum in their frame (just as would heavily irradiated zones and nuclear piles). Stalwarts (including mesmerists and daredevils) confuse psions because they glow brightly in terms of quantum and psionic (their telluric energy has aspects of both). My logic that Stalwarts are the penultimate Inspired is that they can use all of the knacks available, and face none of the limitations facing Daredevils.

Most of the proof that Stalwarts are proto-novas is based on Divis Mal, who started as Doctor Primoris. Although it has been argued that he was one of the first novas, if not the first, there are no other examples of Stalwarts becoming novas. Interesting, most of the evidence of Mesmerists being proto-psiads is based on the similarity of the powers and is carried along by the Dr. Primoris/Divis Mal thing. Interestingly, there is no similar connection made between novas with psionic powers and psiads.

You need to look at the power source, not that similar powers exist. Cats and dogs both have teeth, but no one would say that they are related (beyond being mammals, of course). They share a common ancestor, but that's it; they have entirely different nervous systems, different musculatures, even different teeth. They look at the world different, and their senses represent that, as well as how they react to situations. Although I appreciate that they were there previously, I don't think that Stalwarts necessarily lead to novas....

FR

Thanks for the point about the noetic pattern, it is actually helpful. And you know what, it makes me wonder if it would be possible for a nova using a specialized power to make it so that he could tap and utilize his noetic field. Hmm, if novas can create universes why can't they regain their noetic pattern.

I like the idea that Stalwarts are proto-novas, that Mesmerists are proto-Psiads, and that Daredevils are proto-something else. I like that and I accept that theory of the game, while reconizing that it never comes directly out and says it so that others might not agree with that theory.

But it works for me.

I also say that, like I said above, to me the fact that the Mesmerist/Stalwart/Daredevil group uses Telluric Energy (which is the lower level of true combined universal energy, Essence being the more potent level) flavored by their type works. But I understand that not all like that theory.

[Alex Green]

Like I said, I personally beleive that there are level 5 psionic powers. It makes sense from the type of designing that White Wolf puts in. Though such things do not exist in print right now, I do think they exist. I also think that the Proxies are pretty much beyond the normal psiads in their particular aptitude - so yes, I do think from a story prospective a proxy could effect a city or larger.

I think *originally* the Proxies were supposed to be equal to Divis and about as high end as you could be...

...but WW got in trouble with those throwaway lines. One nova destroys Florida. One nova destroys the entire North Amer Grain belt. A few hundred novas tried to take over the planet, and now all the entire Earth, the Proxies, the various gov, 100k psions, etc, are losing against a handful of novas.

It may not have started out that way but the system that was built doesn't support the idea of a balance between the various supers.

Two notes:

1) Level 5 powers are actually part of the rules. Also, Level 6 powers have been hinted at. Bue can possess people indefinitely, Atwan has done some truly impressive stunts involving teleportation, Pai de Norca has supposedly split himself into at least 12 selves, and Cassel is just scary.

My knowledge of Trinity details is a lot less than with Abby, but while these are presumably the extreme levels of psi powers, at a first glance none of them requires Q6, and they might not even require Q5.

Bue's Domination+Perm Body Snatch is Q3.

Pai's split self power is a theme thing (shapeshift), you'd buy it with 5+ dots in Allies. In theory, ST permitting, you could even have a Q1 nova with that.

Even Cassel's ability to control the entire station is within Q4.

2) Given what you can do with Warping 5, I definitely think that city-wide effects are definitely possible.

Iffy. Even with Warping 5 they still need a gadget to grant Q6-ish level effects... and the gadgets are obviously there in order to move spaceships around (i.e. required by the setting).

I was purposely excluding Edenites and Japan (where novas with too much Taint are killed). I was extrapolating that, given the possibilities of Chrysalis, not all novas would stick to human-appealing forms, and would explore the possibilities. In short, I'm not seeing any reason that novas would not explore Taint, especially as they could bleed it into Chrysalis....

It's doubtful that Trinity novas (at least in general) have access to Chrysalis. Presumably Divis took all his people with him.

But it's an interesting idea to say there might be a hold out (say, some screw up like Fong has been sleeping for decades below the ocean) or that the Colony has a follower or two who broke with Mal.

Most of the proof that Stalwarts are proto-novas is based on Divis Mal, who started as Doctor Primoris.

Doctor Primoris is, supposedly, by A! standards, a super-Stalwart... and the powers seem pretty darn similar as well. But you have a point.

...there are no other examples of Stalwarts becoming novas.

Unclear. There's A! evidence that a far number of supers go mad, and some of the non-stat'ed villains looked pretty nova-ish to me. This is a seriously scary idea when all the PCs are A! types.

You need to look at the power source, not that similar powers exist....I don't think that Stalwarts necessarily lead to novas....

In theory some of the A! types (I *think*) had powers that could sort some of them into their various categories.

But having said that, I wouldn't have a problem if someone hit inspiration 10 and wanted to become a Psiad.

[metaphysician]

I wouldn't be averse to saying that one of the advantages of psionics is easier, more efficient, and *safer* technological augmentation. So, on the outer end of things, psions can produce Q6 level effects. It just takes a notably powerful psion ( usually a proxy ), and a major, focused biotech enhancement apparatus.

[knave]

Meh. Surely the next logical step for a pyrokinetic - a power that involves increasing molecular agitation - is fission. ::tongue

Bada-BOOM. Big Bada-BOOM. ::nuclear

These what if arguments are fun and all, but in the end it only really matters in the context of the game in which they're played.

My personal viewpoint is that yes, Novas are incredibly powerful, but psions (etc) are far more in tune with things (hence noetic feedback, attunement etc). Psion strength comes from working in concert with other psions enhancing themselves with bioapps etc.

It boils down to the theme of Trinity and that is Yes, Abbies are more powerful, but WE CAN STOP THEM IF WE WORK TOGETHER, and I think that is more important than any discussion of rules or canon events for interpreting where to draw the lines of power.

[metaphysician]

Eh, no, fission would be quantakinetics. OTOH, you could probably create some pretty damn big explosions anyway with Pyrokinetics. . .

[Finbar]

I think *originally* the Proxies were supposed to be equal to Divis and about as high end as you could be...

WW is always getting in trouble that way. I seriously wonder how long a PR person lasts at that job before the development team takes them out back and the poor guy suffers a series of accidents....

My knowledge of Trinity details is a lot less than with Abby, but while these are presumably the extreme levels of psi powers, at a first glance none of them requires Q6, and they might not even require Q5.

Definitely. At the same time, keep in mind that they are interfering with the novas ability to use their power, and (even if the nova is interfering with their abilities), and the proxies are still pretty powerful. In all honestly, the proxy I would hate to tick off would Atwan; the other six you could either dodge or resist their ability, or it just wouldn't phase you (Herzog is pretty powerful, but he would need someone to help him). Atwan, on the other hand, could introduce you to the galaxy, all at once. Think "widest possible dispersal" on steroids ::ultracool ....

Iffy. Even with Warping 5 they still need a gadget to grant Q6-ish level effects... and the gadgets are obviously there in order to move spaceships around (i.e. required by the setting).

This is definitely a good balancing factor. Even though quantum devices are more powerful, they require more intensive maintenance and a nova to be on hand during virtually the entire creation time.

It's doubtful that Trinity novas (at least in general) have access to Chrysalis. Presumably Divis took all his people with him.

I don't know. I think that enough Teragen would discuss with non-Teragen that a lot of novas would either know how it works or be able to figure it out (especially with the sheer number of Mega-Intelligent novas there are, and it would be ridiculous (I figure) to assume that only the Teragen would be interested in Taint). You're basically betting against a group of intelligent, curious people not looking into their own origins and not figuring it out.

But it's an interesting idea to say there might be a hold out (say, some screw up like Fong has been sleeping for decades below the ocean) or that the Colony has a follower or two who broke with Mal.

Why not the discussion boards at Teragen.org?

[besides, I'm starting to think that Mal or Mercer is The Colony....]

Doctor Primoris is, supposedly, by A! standards, a super-Stalwart... and the powers seem pretty darn similar as well. But you have a point.

Of all the people presented in A!, I think that doing Primoris as just another Stalwart, I think would be challenging, to say the least.

There's A! evidence that a far number of supers go mad, and some of the non-stat'ed villains looked pretty nova-ish to me. This is a seriously scary idea when all the PCs are A! types.

Actually, I can do almost all of them using the A! rules, even allowing for a unique knack or three. The two problem children are Mercer and Donegal, but they're jerks anyway...

But having said that, I wouldn't have a problem if someone hit inspiration 10 and wanted to become a Psiad.

I would. Why would they want to step down in power?

FR

[Alex Green]

I wouldn't be averse to saying that one of the advantages of psionics is easier, more efficient, and *safer* technological augmentation. So, on the outer end of things, psions can produce Q6 level effects. It just takes a notably powerful psion ( usually a proxy ), and a major, focused biotech enhancement apparatus.

The setting almost demands that they don't (with that one exception required for space travel).

The Psions outnumber the novas by something like 1000 to 1.

They have baseline armies backing them up which increase that number to millions to 1.

Said baseline armies have heavy weapons, including tanks, aircraft, and nukes.

The novas are disorganized and literally insane while the psions are well organized, tactically smart, and very sane.

If the psions have access to Q6 powers on top of everything else, i.e. if they're just as strong as the novas, why are they losing the war?

In theory you could defend the entire planet with three precogs, three teleports, and three Q6 Pyro-blasting army types. There was an entire order built around *each* of these types.

Even if your Q6 Pyro-pumper *killed* the pyro using it after a bit, it'd *still* be worth while and you'd have literally thousands of volunteers.

[Heru]

Its not that I want to give them Quantum 6 level powers, I think that they have access to Level 6 Noetic Powers, as in the sixth and higher dot in each of the Aptitude Modes. There is a difference that I am not sure is being realized here.

As to commenting on other aspects of the last few threads, I will do that when I have more time.

[Sprocket]

Thanks for the point about the noetic pattern, it is actually helpful. And you know what, it makes me wonder if it would be possible for a nova using a specialized power to make it so that he could tap and utilize his noetic field. Hmm, if novas can create universes why can't they regain their noetic pattern.

You might want to look around here on the EON Forums (Aberrant, General Discussion) for the document I wrote up detailing Mega-Willpower. At the upper ranges, certain of its enhancements do some of what you're talking about.

AFA a full-blown quantum power that would allow a nova to manipulate his own noetic field? AFAIK the general consensus was that it would require a Lvl 5 power and Quantum 8. (Since a nova's noetic template/field is very tightly bound by his quantum matrix/energies, it follows that altering it is difficult.) Most have suggested that a new technique for the Quantum Mastery power would be sufficient for noetic self-tinkering, mostly in the form of eliminating one's own aberrations & permanent Taint.

[Heru]

Sprocket,

I've read the Mega-Willpower book before and all I have to say is that I love it. Seriously, its a work of pure genius, one in which I wish was completely canon and existent in all games and settings. So yeah, reading through it and seeing all the new concepts in it was a very nice read and a great and useful expansion to the game setting.

About the power to safely detect, control, alter and add to the noetic pattern, that makes a lot of sense. It should be hard, I agree, it should be highly highly difficult and require great knowledge, ability, power and capability. But it should be possible and should allow a being who is as much in touch with the universe (in a noetic sense) as he is to the quantum. Plus, it should also enable him a better capability to modify his physical form to better channel quantum energy.

You know, that is the thing about Taint, it exists because the human form and the node is not designed specifically to handle the manipulation and channeling of quantum. Humanity hasn't evolved enough to the point where that phenomena is safe. But eventually an optimal form would be developed that would allow for sane individuals using quantum with no problem. 2nd gens have it a little easier, but later true generations would probably have it even more easy.

[Sprocket]

You know, that is the thing about Taint, it exists because the human form and the node is not designed specifically to handle the manipulation and channeling of quantum. Humanity hasn't evolved enough to the point where that phenomena is safe. But eventually an optimal form would be developed that would allow for sane individuals using quantum with no problem. 2nd gens have it a little easier, but later true generations would probably have it even more easy.

It's a little bit more complicated that that, if you're going by what was established in Aberrant: A Breed Apart. True 2ndGen novas have little or nothing to fear from Taint, and are pretty much the "sane quantum users" you envision. OTOH, Trog 2ndGens have Taint problems of a whole different level than their parents do.

[Heru]

It's a little bit more complicated that that, if you're going by what was established in Aberrant: A Breed Apart. True 2ndGen novas have little or nothing to fear from Taint, and are pretty much the "sane quantum users" you envision. OTOH, Trog 2ndGens have Taint problems of a whole different level than their parents do.

This is one of those areas that I would have to modify if I was trying to come up with a unified theory of everything that fits what I wrote in the opening paragraphs. For you see in that theory their must always be a disadvantage to the Nova form, and Taint is that.

Having their be a type of nova that is pretty much completely immune to Taint removes the issue and thus any reason for the fourth grouping which is essential to the entire theory, and one of the areas that I personally like.

In the normal Aberrant game, yeah, I agree completely with how A Breed Apart does things. A True 2ndGen does not have to worry about Tainted Powers, Node Taint, Quantum Taint. Its gaining of Taint from using to much power is also reduced to pretty much nothing. It is a perfect example of what it means to be a real nova.

And it is also pretty much what I would consider to be a really fun nova-type to play. I dislike such things as Taint in a game, but that is just me.

[metaphysician]

While I don't mind Taint as such, I would prefer more formal rules for allowing mutations that aren't aberrations, and thus don't carry intrinsic social alienation and growing insanity. That way, you can build novas that are physically non-human, or that have weird limits on their powers, without them *also* being monsters.

[Rorx]

The comment someone made about the use of biotech is a telling one.

The obvious example being Transportal with and without a WEAR.

Without a Psi 8 can take an 80m dia to anywhere they are Vaguely familiar with, although preferably in space to get around the problems with bulk movements of atmosphre

The same Psi 8 using a WEAR can now move a 1.28km dia, big enough for a Freighter and a number of other ships,. Even a Psi 6, the minimum to be an Teleporter at all, with a WEAR can generate the 320m dia required to move most Frigates, giving an interstellar combat movement capability.

If you go to something closer to a Proxy, a Psi 10 with a Natural Mode in Warping, giving the equivalent of Psi 11, with a WEAR they can move a 10.24 km dia! If you packed them fairly close you could probably get a substantial part of all the Earth's fleets into a sphere that big.

It might not be up in the affect/ranges that Q6+ with Mastery X could achieve on a power, but it is no slouch either.

A Technokinetic 5 using Transmission and Interface can duplicate pretty much anything a normal Nova can do with Cyberkinesis, and gets the quite nasty attack power of Microwave as well.

Added to which the proposed changes/addition of the 2nd/3rd dunking tanks due to come in BC and/or 2nd Ed would open up things for the Psions/Psiads in a big way. Then you could get a single Psion who could both use Clairsentience to find other suitable star systems and jump there himself.

Or a combat psion able to take both BK and EK or PK up to 5 dots and the other plus VK upto 4 dots, so if their psi points could hold out (helped by biotech perhaps) they could generate a couple of effects to shield themselves from damage, be boosted to fight as well as possible and heal themselves up as they went along!

[Sprocket]

This is one of those areas that I would have to modify if I was trying to come up with a unified theory of everything that fits what I wrote in the opening paragraphs. For you see in that theory their must always be a disadvantage to the Nova form, and Taint is that.

Having their be a type of nova that is pretty much completely immune to Taint removes the issue and thus any reason for the fourth grouping which is essential to the entire theory, and one of the areas that I personally like.

In the normal Aberrant game, yeah, I agree completely with how A Breed Apart does things. A True 2ndGen does not have to worry about Tainted Powers, Node Taint, Quantum Taint. Its gaining of Taint from using to much power is also reduced to pretty much nothing. It is a perfect example of what it means to be a real nova.

And it is also pretty much what I would consider to be a really fun nova-type to play. I dislike such things as Taint in a game, but that is just me.

Actually, we *did* give True 2ndGens what I consider a disadvantage to their version of the nova form: the social penalties for interacting with baselines (minor) and interacting with Tainted & Chrysalis-using novas (major, w/ potential for serious fireworks). Basically, stuff that supports the classic themes of alienation such as used in Philip Wylie's The Gladiator (for example).

If anything, ramping up those social penalties would seem to be the best option instead of making True 2ndGens vulnerable to Taint, but it's your metaphysics & your game.

While I don't mind Taint as such, I would prefer more formal rules for allowing mutations that aren't aberrations, and thus don't carry intrinsic social alienation and growing insanity. That way, you can build novas that are physically non-human, or that have weird limits on their powers, without them *also* being monsters.

Easy answer for this: allow the players to take aberrations as additional Flaws, and they can create novas that look abnormal w/out having to deal with Taint. I've called such Flaws "false aberrations" in my works to point out that they wouldn't provoke the negative reactions caused by real Taint-derived aberrations.

AFA applying that to chatacters, perhaps it could be done in a similar manner as Exalted's 1st. Ed God-Blooded could take extra Flaws as part of being "somewhat more that human". The APG's section on Flaws gives point conversion rates for aberrations.