BlueNinja Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Ok, because this got brought up with the discussion about Aggravated on Claws.Burning, on a damage power, allows you to inflict 1/2 the amount of damage, the next round. This sounds cool, except for that little damage is soakable as usual part. That means, unless you're inflicting a massive amount of Bashing damage on someone, then at best you're going to do Ping damage the next round, and nothing else the round after that.See, let's say you're up against a nova with a soak of 10. You hit them with an attack that does 15, so you get damage through. Yay, you think to yourself, I get to do Burning! So next round, your damage from that power is reduced to 7 ... which is less than their soak, so you do ping damage (if you're lucky). The next round, it's reduced again to 3 ... which is less than half their soak, so you don't even get ping damage.The only way my above example doesn't apply is when you're doing damage to someone with no soak (ie, lethal to baselines or Agg to novas without Invuln, Impervious, or Hardbody). Put Burning on Claws, and it's even less useful - at best, your Claws themselves only do 5 dice of damage, which at full is barely enough to ping damage any nova with a defensive power at only one dot.Anyone else think that this is a little bit too weak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Er...well it does 1/2 damage for every round for a number of rounds equal to the power rating. So a 5 Str Mstr 5 nova with 5 dots in lethal burning claws does 10 [25] Lethal plus succeses the first attack. for the next 5 rounds the person with take 5 [12] + 1/2 succeses lethal damage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 So a 5 Str Mstr 5 nova with 5 dots in lethal burning claws does 10 [25] Lethal plus succeses the first attack. for the next 5 rounds the person with take 5 [12] + 1/2 succeses lethal damage...The claws damage is Burning. The Strength is not. So that's 2 + 1/2 d lethal for the next 5 rounds.Mental Blast + Burning (you take the original number of succ).Q-Bolt + BurningDisin + Burning (needs a powermax).Claws + Burning + Agg (very nasty with lot of dots). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 *ahem* (puts on spectacles and flips to Page 231),, A burning attack inflicts normal damage when it first hits...the victim of a burning attack automatically takes half damage from the attack...,, Nowhere does it say half the damage of the power rating...,, The attack includes strength in this case...,,,, so no it is not underpowered for high str characters... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueNinja Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 Mental Blast + Burning (you take the original number of succ). Of all your examples, this is the only non-Agg one that could possibly inflict more than ping damage. This, in my mind at least, makes it broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Of all your examples, this is the only non-Agg one that could possibly inflict more than ping damage. This, in my mind at least, makes it broken. ,, So you are just disregarding what the extra description says? Or just intepreting it to mean that the extra only applies to damage apart from str?,, A Q 5 nova with a burning qbolt at 5 dots would be doing [15] + 20 + successes (bashing) on the first and then [7] +10+ 1/2 succeses for 5 rounds. so thats still not shabby compared to a handgun.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueNinja Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 A Q 5 nova with a burning qbolt at 5 dots would be doing [15] + 20 + successes (bashing) on the first and then [7] +10+ 1/2 succeses for 5 rounds. so thats still not shabby compared to a handgun.... Ok, you're doing ~35 damage. Say the nova you're up against has a soak of 25. So you do ten dice of bashing to him. Next round, you do ... one die of ping. Next round, you do zilch.How is this really useful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Ok, you're doing ~35 damage. Say the nova you're up against has a soak of 25. So you do ten dice of bashing to him. Next round, you do ... one die of ping. Next round, you do zilch.How is this really useful? ,, how many Novas have a soak of 25+? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Thunder Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I was just thinking that. Damn that's a lot of soak. You may as well toss them off a cliff and hope they drown in the sea.I mean, how many times do you encounter a soak of 25? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueNinja Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 I was just thinking that. Damn that's a lot of soak. You may as well toss them off a cliff and hope they drown in the sea.I mean, how many times do you encounter a soak of 25?5 Stam / 3 M-Stam -> 4L soakResiliency x2 -> 8L soak3 Armor -> 17L soak1 FF -> 25L soakAnd that's easy to do with a starting nova. I've had a nova with a lethal soak of 50, and he wasn't even a combat junkie. And hey, the example was bashing, which means you could cut out the Armor entirely of my example.But ok, say the nova has only a bashing soak of 15. You hit him for 20 dice (~4 actual damage). The next round, you do ... a whole two dice (1 damage ... if you're lucky). Next round, you do ping damage.The only way to continue to do damage for more than one round in a row is to have an attack dealing so much damage, you're better off to have something like Reduced Q Cost and do more damage by hitting them twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 also just wanted to make sure but I read burning and it continues to do half every round per dot in power. So its doesnt go full 1/2 1/4 1/8 its full 1/2 1/2 1/2...the whole time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueNinja Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 also just wanted to make sure but I read burning and it continues to do half every round per dot in power. So its doesnt go full 1/2 1/4 1/8 its full 1/2 1/2 1/2...the whole time My impression was that it halved every turn until it ran out. The full 1/2 of the original strike, even as ping damage would add up quickly if you could hit someone with, say, three Q-bolts a round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 My impression was that it halved every turn until it ran out. The full 1/2 of the original strike, even as ping damage would add up quickly if you could hit someone with, say, three Q-bolts a round. ,, Thats not what it says though....,,,,The victim takes half damage from the attack for an additional number of turns equal to the attack's power rating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueNinja Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 Never mind then, I withdraw my complaints of it being a worthless extra! ::happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphysician Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I was just thinking that. Damn that's a lot of soak. You may as well toss them off a cliff and hope they drown in the sea.I mean, how many times do you encounter a soak of 25?*snort*chuckle*snort*Depends on the game your in.The way I read it was, if your initial attack does 20L, than you do 20L on the first round, soakable as normal.Then, on each of the next five rounds, the target takes a 10L hit, soakable as normal.This may not seem like alot, but as long as the initial attack didn't ping, then thats five free ping rolls that don't require any further action, and can be combined with further attacks. Seems fine to me.The real question is: is Burning cumulative? If you attack somebody with it twice, does it mean they take burning damage twice a round for the duration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 *ahem* (puts on spectacles and flips to Page 231),, A burning attack inflicts normal damage when it first hits...the victim of a burning attack automatically takes half damage from the attack...,, Nowhere does it say half the damage of the power rating...,, The attack includes strength in this case...,, so no it is not underpowered for high str characters...The Attack isn't burning. Claws is burning. You aren't attacking with the power Claws, you are attacking with Martial Arts. This is NOT a minor point. If you attack with the power Claws, then you roll Dex + Dots-in-Claws and only do Dots-in-Claws + acc succ in lethal damage. Similarly, if you have Claws+Area you don't get Strength added on top of that either.Claws stacks with Strength, Strength doesn't stack with Claws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Moving on, other great Burning powers...Q-Leech + BurningQ-Vampire + BurningBasically anything that's resisted and not soaked.This also means that the various Agg attacks work well with Burning, although this usually requires a powermax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 The real question is: is Burning cumulative? If you attack somebody with it twice, does it mean they take burning damage twice a round for the duration?It is not cumulative in that one burning effect doesn't stack on another. They are all computed seperately... but yes, you can have several burning attacks running on someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 The Attack isn't burning. Claws is burning. You aren't attacking with the power Claws, you are attacking with Martial Arts. This is NOT a minor point. If you attack with the power Claws, then you roll Dex + Dots-in-Claws and only do Dots-in-Claws + acc succ in lethal damage. Similarly, if you have Claws+Area you don't get Strength added on top of that either.Claws stacks with Strength, Strength doesn't stack with Claws. ,, I disagree Alex. Putting an extra on an attack power makes it a whole new power. And a mega strength burning clawing maul attack is going to hurt. alot. for awhile... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueNinja Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 Moving on, other great Burning powers...Q-Leech + BurningQ-Vampire + Burning Burning specifically says damage. Q-Leech does not inflict damage, and Q-Vamp only inflicts damage if you're taking health. (However, I don't think the burning 'damage' in that case would continue to give you health levels, since it's based on successes initially rolled.)The real question is: is Burning cumulative? If you attack somebody with it twice, does it mean they take burning damage twice a round for the duration? I would say yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psilord Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I disagree Alex. Putting an extra on an attack power makes it a whole new power. And a mega strength burning clawing maul attack is going to hurt. alot. for awhile...I have to agree with Alex here. In the case of a Claws attack with M-Str., the M-Str. is a modifier or add to the power. It is not part of the power itself. The same is true of just Str. with Claws.Say you have Claws 5, Str. 3 and M-Str. 1. Not considering any maneuver bonus....Your attack would normally do 13 lethal damage [str.(3) + M-Str. (5) + Claws (5) =13].Claws+Burning would do 3 (5/2 = 2.5 rounded to 3) each round for 5 additional rounds.I see your point Skylion that Burning is supposed to affect the "attack", and so would burn at 7L (13/2) if we changed Claws 5 to QB 5. However, in the case of Claws (or other attacks modified by attribute damage) you are not continuing to apply the Str or M-Str. in the subsequent rounds.If I put on a spiked glove and hit you, you will take damage from my strength and the spikes. If a spike breaks off in you and continues to damage you that is burning, but my strength will no longer be part of the equation.Logically in the CLaws + Burning case you could only count the damage from the power itself for Burning, not the STr. A Q-Bolt on the other hand gets all its damage from from the power, so all the primary damage would be counted into the Burning formula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphysician Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Of course, an aggravated burning claws. . . ::devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psilord Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Of course, an aggravated burning claws. . . While this is a very effective attack, the end result is only that the Burning damage from the Claws (Dots/2) wouldn't be soakable without special protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Okay. I stand corrected again. Thanks Psilord for the clear example.,, Claws agg and burning would suck if you had more than a dot. ,, Question though....Agg claws does claws plus successes right? are those accuracy successes and thus would not be counted for the burning or would they be power successes and count?,, If they dont count then having 1 dot in agg burning wouldn't do any damage after the first (or maybe a half point or possible "ping" and at one dot only for one round),, At 5 dots agg burning you would be doing 2 dice of agg for 5 rounds...still nasty,, If the successes DO count then that 5 dot agg burning would be gnarly nasty...of course level 3 powers are supposed to be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psilord Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 ****EDIT: Sorry, had to actually add the AGG in. ::blush Actually, to use my previous example...Quantun 2Strength 3M-Str. 1Claws 5 +Burning + Agg (and assuming no special protection)On the primary attack you would get 5 auto damage succ for the M-Str. You would then roll 3 damage dice for STr. and 5 damage dice for Claws. Say you get 3 succ for STr and 3 for Claws as well. Quantum adds in 2 agg damage.This gives you 13 damage that cannot be soaked (agg).Each round for the next five rounds you would get 4 damage (agg) from the Claws successes [(3/2 rounded up) + Quantum (2)].Total agg. damage after all six effects would be 33 [13 for the primary + 20 (5x4) for the burning rounds]Really, really nasty. ::ohmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Actually Psilord, in spite of my protests, the party line on theses here forums is that str does not add to agg claws... ::indifferent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psilord Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Unless I'm really not understanding correctly here, I think a limiter needs to be applied to Agg damage.The situation, considering Claws and Q-Bolt. (Quantum 3 and powers at 5 dots, all succ. and Attributes at 3)Q-Bolt has a lethal damage potential of 26 damage [ 6 (Qx2) + 20 (5 dots x 4)]Q-Bolt has an agg damage potential of 11 damage [ 3 (Q) + 8 (5 dots + 3 dexterity)]As you can see the total damage for an agg attack is less than 1/2 that for a lethal Q-Bolt attack (not considering the other effect of agg damage).Now lets look at Claws...Claws has a lethal damage potential of 8 damage [ 3 (strength) + 5 (dots in Claws)]Claws has an agg damage potential of 11 damage [ 3 (str) + 5 (dots) + 3 (Q)]Notice how the damage potential increases with agg for Claws? This just doesn't seem right!I would propose that on any power (like Claws) wherein the agg. extra would INCREASE the potential damage, that the damage instead be limited to normal. The non-soak benefits of agg more than make up for this limit. In fact I still think this is too generous...Actually Psilord, in spite of my protests, the party line on theses here forums is that str does not add to agg claws... Logically there is no reason it wouldn't add, not for a primary attack.Going back to the spiked glove example...The spikes make the punch agg, on that initial attack those spikes are being propelled by my strength. Hitting harder is hitting harder, wearing the glove or not.The agg extra has nothing to do with the amount of damage (or shouldn't), just the qualities of that damage.I just have a problem with the damage write-up for the agg extra in certain instances, like Claws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Tell me about it!!,, I agree with you, but here on Eon, everyone considers Agg to be disintegration, like a lightsaber, so they say no Str gets added... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueNinja Posted October 26, 2006 Author Share Posted October 26, 2006 Logically there is no reason [strength] wouldn't add, not for a primary attack. There is an errata PDF that says Aggro, for Claws, does only (Claws + attack successes) dice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 There is an errata PDF that says Aggro, for Claws, does only (Claws + attack successes) dice. ,, A dubious SEMI-official errata might I add...with a source unknown to me...for all I know it was a mother-nerfing SOB who had agg claws phobia...since it has been pointed out that that was really the only change in the so-called SEMI-official errata.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 A dubious SEMI-official errata might I add...with a source unknown to me...for all I know it was a mother-nerfing SOB who had agg claws phobia...since it has been pointed out that that was really the only change in the so-called SEMI-official errata....Actually it was put out by White Wolf's Abby developers on their Email'ed info list.What makes it semi-offical is we then had the APG come out and it had everything but that (I include Shockwave and covered because it was mentioned and the errata for that was simply edited).RE: Claws + Agg + BurningExtra succ are added to the damage of the original attack, so they are indeed carried over by burning on future damage. Assuming you have 5 dots of this monster and get 1 extra succ => 6d + 5x(3d) => 21 dice of Agg damage, with a maint power that you can use multiple times a round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 RE: Claws + Agg + BurningExtra succ are added to the damage of the original attack, so they are indeed carried over by burning on future damage. Assuming you have 5 dots of this monster and get 1 extra succ => 6d + 5x(3d) => 21 dice of Agg damage, with a maint power that you can use multiple times a round.,, somebody with impervious is still going to shrug it off...likewise someone with lots of Q and hardbody...,,,, Which just gave me an idea....In Champions, Immolate is NOT a power but an extra called Damage Shield. There should be a way to make a Q-leech immolate...would just linking them do it? (5 points...must use together+simul activation?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metaphysician Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 I'm not sure you wanna bring Champions in as an example. Damage Shield is a very weak construct in 5e. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 I just think it would be a cool power to q-leech anything that touched you, or you touched...,, another, perhaps more cheeser way would be to have a heavily tainted nova with the aberration permanent power:Q-leech... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Green Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 somebody with impervious is still going to shrug it off...likewise someone with lots of Q and hardbody...That's an issue with Agg damage, not with this power. Although I will point out that Hardbody would require 6 quantum to deal with this, while it only took you 3 to throw it. Run someone out of quantum and Hardbody suddenly looks weak rather than strong.,, Which just gave me an idea....In Champions, Immolate is NOT a power but an extra called Damage Shield. There should be a way to make a Q-leech immolate...would just linking them do it? (5 points...must use together+simul activation?)You could do this, but you probably don't want to. The first problem is you have 3 points of weakness, not 5. You can't combine both of those and end up with a functioning power since one says that A & B must be turned on at the same time, the other says that A must be turned on before B.But even if you get enough weaknesses, the real problem is that Immolate is a Maint power and Q-Leech is an instant. Combine them and you'll be endlessly turning on and off Immolate to match Q-Leech.Worse, one is a defensive power and the other is an offensive power. You'd probably end up with Immolate off at the wrong time or Q-Leech on.the aberration permanent power:Q-leech...Q-Leech is an instant power, it can't be made perm. The equiv would be "uncontrolled". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyLion Posted October 26, 2006 Share Posted October 26, 2006 So aberration: Permanent Power: Q-leech it is!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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