Expanding Nature

[SkyLion]

Talking with Pheonix got me thinking about this. Nature is such a useful tool for roleplaying that I thought I should ask the rest of you...

The Adventure! rules added an additional level of detail to Nature by dividing it into a Virtue (that gains you Willpower) and Vice (requiring a WP point to avoid).

For example, Li-Shen Long has a Virtue of Fanatic. He believes that everything follows an intrinsic order...The Great Wheel as it were. When circumstances reinforce this belief he gains a Willpower point.

Conversely Li has the Vice of being an Expert (Showman). He must spend a Willpower point to avoid demonstrating his prowess when the opportunity presents itself.

In the WoD games characters have a single Nature, but also a separate Demeanor, to represent how people don't always wear their Nature on their sleeves. This question came up because it is appropriate for Li. He hides his Fanatic Nature under a Hedonistic upper crust Demeanor.

Demeanors can be the same as Nature and may also change more rapidly than the inner Nature to reflect a persons reaction to different circumstances.

One last note is that I have found several (albeit rare) examples of White Wolf canon NPCs with either a dual Nature listed (my complex aren't we?) or a Nature listed as "somewhere between X and Y."

So what do you think? Should we use the expanded ideas in the other (non A!) games?

[phoenix]

I'll try to answer this tomorrow in detail, because I have a long-standing grudge against the Abbie and Trin Nature system. Suffice it to say for now that I think dividing it into Virtue and Vice makes it a lot more flexible and fun to play.

[ezekiel]

Demeanor isn't really needed on the sheet, which is why I don't really care if abbie or trin don't have it. If you start acting against your nature (your demeanor goes counter to your nature) you may eventually get depressed (out of willpower). Someday your demeanor may be one thing, a week later (or maybe when hanging with a different crowd) it can be different.

I like the Vice and Virtue thing about adventure! though. Having a flaw or vice focuses the character a bit more. I don't know if its 'needed' but I like the system.

[madcat82]

I have seen demeanor used as a justification to gain xp for roleplaying befor, and honestly I dont like it. Nuff said.

[SkyLion]

I have seen demeanor used as a justification to gain xp for roleplaying befor, and honestly I dont like it. Nuff said.

,,

Not to discount your opinion but perhaps you could give an example of the situation in question that turned you off to the idea?

,,

I started with playing WoD games, where there is more of a dark tone. Having separate Natures and Demeanors is actually a valid roleplaying concept. If someone was able to show through their roleplaying the subtle nuances between nature and demeanor then why shouldn't they get "good roleplaying" XP like any other skillful portrayal would?

[Blue Thunder]

In my project (Implicate Order) I'm planning on presenting the optional rules for Vice and Virtue for every Nature in the Trinity main book and also the Trinity Player's Guide. I'm also going to have information on playing dual Natures. I'm also introducing new Natures (and the Vice and Virtue of each).

If you check the character templates in Luna Rising one of the characters (Tangerine Uhl) has "Loner" listed as her Nature, which isn't in any of the Aeon Continuum books. I'm adding that in as well.

[phoenix]

I would have liked for Vice and Virtue to be an option for Glacier in the play-by-post Quantum Zero. His declared nature was Survivor, but I was always unhappy with that, because I didn't want to think of him as the kind of guy who'd sacrifice someone else to survive. But it was his declared nature, and I think Prof's treatment of him kind of reflected that. I would rather have made Survivor his Virtue, and Bravo his Vice - that has the additional advantage of making belligerence tied into his personality in a fundamental way, something he's always feared and tried to fight (Glacier had aberrations that put his nova self under the influence of a second personality characterized by an ethereal polar bear, which frequently caused him to become "enraged" and attack bystanders and allies). Making Bravo part of his Nature would also have provided more opportunity to play off his admiration for Zeke's Terry, a more mature nova with high Social traits that allowed him to influence people.

So, how does all this apply to characters other than he? I think a doubled-up Natural order makes for a flexible, personal system that's otherwise slightly cookie-cutterish. ::thumbup1

Of course, this flexibility lends itself to abuse - I don't have the book in front of me, but I seem to recall thinking that some Vices would require WP expenditures only in far-fetched situations. I might come back with examples if I happen to turn my laptop on today.

[madcat82]

Not to discount your opinion but perhaps you could give an example of the situation in question that turned you off to the idea?

,,

I started with playing WoD games, where there is more of a dark tone. Having separate Natures and Demeanors is actually a valid roleplaying concept. If someone was able to show through their roleplaying the subtle nuances between nature and demeanor then why shouldn't they get "good roleplaying" XP like any other skillful portrayal would?

I have played a lot of WoD games, and ST'ed even more, and one of my players played a Gangrel vampire with the Loner demeanor and nature and used this as an excuse for not having to roleplay. And I could not realy say that he was wrong sitting in the corner looking at everyone else and barely saying a word (until combat started). He didnt get much XP and in hindsight I should probably not have allowed it, however it is not hard to choose a demeanor/nature combination thats very similar and use this as an excuse to get XP.

[SkyLion]

I have played a lot of WoD games, and ST'ed even more, and one of my players played a Gangrel vampire with the Loner demeanor and nature and used this as an excuse for not having to roleplay. And I could not realy say that he was wrong sitting in the corner looking at everyone else and barely saying a word (until combat started). He didnt get much XP and in hindsight I should probably not have allowed it, however it is not hard to choose a demeanor/nature combination thats very similar and use this as an excuse to get XP.

Oh, well yeah! Of course you had problems with that guy. We all know about that guy...

It is said far and wide that loner types dont work unless the player comes up with a creative way to integrate. Loner is one of the more challenging natures to roleplay skillfuly. It sound like your player wasn't really interested in roleplaying and/or not very mature ("Hack, Slash, Kill, Maim, Destroy! Personality? What's that???").

Also choosing the same Nature and Demeanor, while perfectly plausible isn't the most nuanced roleplaying performance...unless it is and the player pulls it off in entertaining fashion. For an example of Loners working with groups (and being social about it) check out Blade 2. He is definitly a loner but in the second movie he is forced to work with others, in entertaining fashion. Its not that he never speaks...he just plays his cards and emotions close to his chest.

My reason for asking wasn't really about XP (although its a valid adjunct to the topic). I was more interested in the question about adding layers of depth to characters and roleplaying... Nature and Demeanor can be useful tools for creating a skelton or archetype. The Demeanor question came up because of Li-Shen. He has his nature but he doesn't directly act like that in front of others...instead (as the showman) he puts on an act. Consider Batman most likely has the Judge Nature. But as Bruce he goes around pretending to be a Hedonist...a dilletante (actually this idea was probably first put forth in the much older novel "The Scarlet Pimpernel") My question involved not wanting to be docked XP for having Li "wear his mask" although he is already starting to show the other (Player) characters his true self...

[ezekiel]

Oh, well yeah! Of course you had problems with that guy. We all know about that guy...

::laugh

[madcat82]

Oh, well yeah! Of course you had problems with that guy. We all know about that guy...

It is said far and wide that loner types dont work unless the player comes up with a creative way to integrate. Loner is one of the more challenging natures to roleplay skillfuly. It sound like your player wasn't really interested in roleplaying and/or not very mature ("Hack, Slash, Kill, Maim, Destroy! Personality? What's that???").

Also choosing the same Nature and Demeanor, while perfectly plausible isn't the most nuanced roleplaying performance...unless it is and the player pulls it off in entertaining fashion. For an example of Loners working with groups (and being social about it) check out Blade 2. He is definitly a loner but in the second movie he is forced to work with others, in entertaining fashion. Its not that he never speaks...he just plays his cards and emotions close to his chest.

My reason for asking wasn't really about XP (although its a valid adjunct to the topic). I was more interested in the question about adding layers of depth to characters and roleplaying... Nature and Demeanor can be useful tools for creating a skelton or archetype. The Demeanor question came up because of Li-Shen. He has his nature but he doesn't directly act like that in front of others...instead (as the showman) he puts on an act. Consider Batman most likely has the Judge Nature. But as Bruce he goes around pretending to be a Hedonist...a dilletante (actually this idea was probably first put forth in the much older novel "The Scarlet Pimpernel") My question involved not wanting to be docked XP for having Li "wear his mask" although he is already starting to show the other (Player) characters his true self...

The point I tried to make where that nature/demeanor plays very much into the hands of abuse and disuse, something witch I dont think that Virtue/Vice does, at the very least its hard to abuse both your vice and virtue.