Aberrant: War Journal - Ranks in War Journal

[Heritage]

Okay, I'm not sure if my attempts to clear things up are helping or not, so let me know; it's early enough in the new game to basically create a new Rank stat that could have more levels or something if that would help.

[Grizzly]

Hmmm. Perhaps we should make that ranksystem completely new. Because Rank can´t be bought at Chargen and can´t be increased by XP it depends solely on Heritages will anyway. My suggestion is to make it indipendend of a background score and make it with, perhaps, 10 Ranks. Another point is, just my opinion, making one Ranklist for all groups of the Greens. I think that the military part of the Greens isn´t that big that it needs three ranklists and I believe that they aren´t as bureaucratic as the usual Army/Navy/Airforce. This way it would be much more streamlined and there won´t be so much problems to sort out who´s higher ranking and who´s not.

My suggestion for Ranklist:

Rank Called(Abr.) ex. of Unit Size

Rank 00 Recruit -- --

Rank 01 Soldier -- --

Rank 02 Private (P) --

Rank 03 Corporal (CP) SIC Group

Rank 04 Sergeant (SGT) Group

Rank 05 Master Sergeant (MSGT) SIC Patoon

Rank 1 Lieutenant, Junior Grade (LT1) Platoon

Rank 2 Lieutenant, Senior Grade (LT2) SIC Company

Rank 3 Captain (CPT) Company

Rank 4 Major (MAJ) SIC Battaillon

Rank 5 Colonel (COL) Battaillon

(Rank 6 General) NSC only

SIC=Second in Command

Just my 2c ::wink

ok, edited for clarification and for PoBs suggestions

[Prince of Boredom]

hmm, ok, I picke the try something entirely new, but then realized that the first option also worked. I guess I'm easily confused by too many options.

While I think Grizzly's system might work better than the current, I think there's another option. You can make 2 5 rank systems, 1 for officer and 1 for enlisted. Why? Well, if you use real-world examples, at least the US and most NATO countries I can think of, the officer ranks do not generally get 'tacked' on to the enlisted ranks, otherwise it'd take you till age 65 to make general ::tongue . Instead, there is usually some other criteria to become an officer, in the US that's a college degree, as well as going to a service academy, ROTC, or Officer Candidate (or Training depending on the service) School. In the past, the criteria may have been royal blood or what have you. The point is the rank systems are separate and not connected.

How would this work in WJ? You still have the rank background. Ranks in this equal enlisted ranks, then you have an advantage that can be taken that allows for ranks in the Offficer Rank background (with perhaps other criteria like x dots in education, leadership, etc). This allows for the crusty old master seargent who has to work for the wet behind the ears Lt straight out of training. The comparative ranks will also act as influence. While Officer Ranks may be more important when requistioning items, dealing with the brass, etc. a straight up camparison between the two can be made when dealing with the troops (that crusty old master seargent will have a lot more respect than that new Lt).

Of course, it's possible that the Greens wouldn't like the 'elitist' distinction between officers and enlisted, but that's how it could work. I also agree that the rank name differences between the groups isn't necessary. In all honesty, these are all members of the Army at the end of the day (haven't seen any mention of a navy or air force) so there's really no need for them to have a different rank structure.

And my last recommendation would be that when Heritage deems someone able to be promoted, instead of giving it for free, 'allow' the player to purchase it with their next xp. That way they're not seen as getting something for nothing.

Just some thoughts.

[Grizzly]

While I think Grizzly's system might work better than the current, I think there's another option. You can make 2 5 rank systems, 1 for officer and 1 for enlisted.

I meant my list in this way, some sort of.

To become Lt, you have to make some sort of Officer-training or a Test to prove that you are able to do the job. But because all Players startet with Rank3 I just skipped that because we all got that starting package with Leadership, Tactics... etc.

I think I can Incorporate your idea and edit my post for that.

[Heritage]

I like the two groups of 5 ranks idea, still trying to think how to impliment it...hmm....

Certainly the Cobras don't really need a seperate rank structure, especially since it's sort of an elite group; burning their old RA uniforms is a big part of their identity, however.

The Scouts are trained in a totally different method and structure, which is part of what makes them seem (and sometimes actually be) aloof, and why other two divisions sometimes scoff at them. To be honest, I love the first three ranks of Scout, others suck ::tongue

Other thoughts?

[Heritage]

Here's how I see it looking - I'm still leaning towards assigning ranks, and not sure how I feel about losing specialist and Scout rank titles (more enamored of the latter than the former).

Rank Called(Abr.) ex. of Unit Size

Enlisted 0 Recruit -- --

Enlisted 1 Soldier -- --

Enlisted 2 Private (PVT) --

Enlisted 3 Corporal (CPL) SIC Squad

Enlisted 4 Sergeant (SGT) Squad

Enlisted 5 Master Sergeant (MSGT) SIC Platoon

Officer 1 Lieutenant, Junior Grade (LT1) Platoon

Officer 2 Lieutenant, Senior Grade (LT2) SIC Company

Officer 3 Captain (CPT) Company

Officer 4 Major (MAJ) SIC Battalion

Officer 5 Colonel (COL) Battalion

(Officer 6 General) NPC only

SIC=Second in Command

[Grizzly]

I like the two groups of 5 ranks idea, still trying to think how to impliment it...hmm....

Certainly the Cobras don't really need a seperate rank structure, especially since it's sort of an elite group; burning their old RA uniforms is a big part of their identity, however.

The Scouts are trained in a totally different method and structure, which is part of what makes them seem (and sometimes actually be) aloof, and why other two divisions sometimes scoff at them. To be honest, I love the first three ranks of Scout, others suck  ::tongue

Other thoughts?

←

Hm, so far so good. As for the Cobras and the Scouts, they may think that they are different, or are even different to the RA, but they could use the same Ranks. It´s just a question of "Chain of Command"

Beeing a member of an Elite Unit usually isn`t defined by another Rank system but more by tags/pins/insignias that indicates special training and the availability of special equipment.

But having earned the right to wear such insignias gives them a reason to be proud and the others a reason for envy ::wink

So "Scout", "Master Scout" and "Cobra" would be honorary titles wich had to be earned the hard way but not actual Ranks.

[Grizzly]

...............The point is the rank systems are separate and not connected.

How would this work in WJ?  You still have the rank background.  Ranks in this equal enlisted ranks, then you have an advantage that can be taken that allows for ranks in the Offficer Rank background (with perhaps other criteria like x dots in education, leadership, etc).  This allows for the crusty old master seargent who has to work for the wet behind the ears Lt straight out of training.  The comparative ranks will also act as influence.  While Officer Ranks may be more important when requistioning items, dealing with the brass, etc. a straight up camparison between the two can be made when dealing with the troops (that crusty old master seargent will have a lot more respect than that new Lt).

Of course, ....

←

I like that idea, too ::smile . But how should we put that in rules? ::glare

Griffin would be a very good example.

He started with the Greens as a Recruit and worked his way up to "Sergeant/MasterSergeant". Then he got that promotion to LT for his fight at Kettle Falls, having the qualification for such a rank, too. ::confused

[Heritage]

Hm, so far so good. As for the Cobras and the Scouts, they may think that they are different, or are even different to the RA, but they could use the same Ranks. It´s just a question of "Chain of Command"

Beeing a member of an Elite Unit usually isn`t defined by another Rank system but more by tags/pins/insignias that indicates special training and the availability of special equipment.

But having earned the right to wear such insignias gives them a reason to be proud and the others a reason for envy ::wink

So "Scout", "Master Scout" and "Cobra" would be honorary titles wich had to be earned the hard way but not actual Ranks.

←

Alright, here's what I'm thinking:

1. Rank designations line up straight across between three branches, so E0-5 then O1-6.

2. Cobras start as RA, rising up to E4; when they are due for promotion at E5, they can apply for the SOC. If they pass within two tries, they become Master Sergeant in the Cobras; if they fail, they stay in RA as Master SGT. They still burn their old BDUs and trade them in for new gear, but Cobras are more like a special unit of RA that thinks of themselves as being outside. ::wink They continue up Officer ranks like everyone else.

Note: Asbjorn thinks RA guys should be able to try for Cobra at E3, making Sergeant (E4) the first 'Cobra rank' - what do people think?

3. The Scouts still have a seperate program, but they're pretty selective - there are technically no Enlisted 0 Scouts, but they pull from the common recruit pool as RA. The only actual Scout ranks are Scout First Grade (SFG), Scout Second Grade (S2G), and Scout 3rd Grade (S3G), which match up with E1-3. A Master Scout is basically a Master Sergeant (E5), but a Sergeant is still a Sergeant (E4). There are no Officer ranks for Scouts.

4. Specialist ranks in Engineering, Med Corps and T&S are Specialist, Senior Specialist and Master Chief (MSGT in Med Corps), E3-5; after that their O1-6 like everyone else.

I'm trying to makes things much smoother while still giving the Greens a unique feel - what are your feelings?

P.S. I think the rank numbers might be usable in character, too, just like in US armed forces.

[Heritage]

I like that idea, too ::smile . But how should we put that in rules? ::glare

Griffin would be a very good example.

He started with the Greens as a Recruit and worked his way up to "Sergeant/MasterSergeant". Then he got that promotion to LT for his fight at Kettle Falls, having the qualification for such a rank, too. ::confused

←

Lots of battlefield commissions handed out after Kettle Falls - also where Colby made sergeant. Ooh, now she'd be a MSGT after promotion when Delacroix showed up - sweet! ::cool

[Grizzly]

Sounds good for me. ::ultracool

Asbjörns idea sounds good. too.

[BlueNinja]

Alright, here's what I'm thinking:

4. Specialist ranks in Engineering, Med Corps and T&S are Specialist, Senior Specialist and Master Chief (MSGT in Med Corps), E3-5; after that their O1-6 like everyone else.

P.S. I think the rank numbers might be usable in character, too, just like in US armed forces.

That all sounds good to me.

"Looky, I'm a Warrant Officer!" ::happy

[phoenix]

GO NTNSRCTUN

::wink

[Heritage]

GO NTNSRCTUN

::wink

←

Okay, what the heck does that mean? ::laugh

How does this look to folks? Rank chart

[BlueNinja]

How does this look to folks? Rank chart

Looks good to me. Are you going to mark the rank on the character sheet, and if so, how? ie, a 10-point Rank, or just write it in next to our name? Or two different 5-point backgrounds, one for enlisted and one for officers?

[Heritage]

Looks good to me.  Are you going to mark the rank on the character sheet, and if so, how?  ie, a 10-point Rank, or just write it in next to our name?  Or two different 5-point backgrounds, one for enlisted and one for officers?

←

Basically Rank is sort of like a new stat, but based on Background format and probably still grouped with them. The way I'll be doing it on sheet on my computer is list their rank with name (MCHF Judy Kapriski) and then under Backgrounds (Rank: E5).

Here's the way I see the PCs breaking down:

O2

1LT Robert 'Hawkeye' Griffin, Infantry

O1

2LT Emma Majors, Intelligence

2LT Hood, Scouts (very mysterious!)

E5

MCHF Alejandro 'Vlad' Muñoz , Engineers

MSGT Sydney 'Havoc' Freedman, Infantry

MSGT Sarah Chu’mana Adoette, Special Operations

E4

SSPEC Judy Kapriski, Engineers

E3

SPEC John 'Nomad' Smith, Transport and Supply

Technically, Rourke is MCHF Robert Rourke, Transport and Supply, but he doesn't remember it! ::ohmy

Did I get anyone wrong?

(Edited a few times to reflect player's prefered ranks)

[Prince of Boredom]

Note: Asbjorn thinks RA guys should be able to try for Cobra at E3, making Sergeant (E4) the first 'Cobra rank' - what do people think?

Actually, I'd take it one step further and let them try at E-2. The problem right now is that you have a lot of chiefs, and not very many indians in the Cobras. Remember that rank is more than simply your skills in battle, it also reflects leadership ability.

The best example I can think of is Saving Private Ryan. In that 'platoon' you had one officer (Tom Hanks), a senior NCO (master sergeant), and a bunch of privates and corporals. Realistically, that's what you'd have in a combat unit. If you treat things like the real world military, there is a fairly big distinction between a rank 1-3 enlisted, and rank 4-5. Rank 4-5 is a non-commisioned officer (NCO or noncom) and is expected to be a leader of troops. I know there is an urge to make the Cobras higher rank because of their skills and training, but it's not really necessary. In the US military, the way they handle that is to give extra pay for hazardous duty, and extra pay for various qualifications (so rank is same but there is recognition of their special skills).

Now there might be a tendency for them to get promoted faster because they are more likely to earn medals and such, but there would probably be a glass ceiling of sorts for them. What I mean is that since the Cobras are elite, there is likely to be less jobs out there for senior enlisted and officers in the ranks. Again, in the real world, promotion is at least partially based on whether the service needs any more of the next rank. If for example, the Cobras are alotted 3 colonels, and there are 3 colonels serving, no major is going to get promoted unless one of the colonels dies, retires, or gets promoted himself. This glass ceiling is actually very true for SF types in the US militaty, especially things like the Air Force Pararescue guys. They get promoted quickly through the early ranks, then kinda stall after that.

He started with the Greens as a Recruit and worked his way up to "Sergeant/MasterSergeant". Then he got that promotion to LT for his fight at Kettle Falls, having the qualification for such a rank, too

What I'd say is that he'd have 4 or 5 ranks in 'Enlisted' and then 1 or 2 ranks in 'Officer'. Heritage's idea of battlefield promotions makes complete sense, just realize that Griff is probably one of the older LTs out there (I actually worked with a Capt that had gone to officer candidate school in the Air Force after 12 years as an enlisted guy, he had been an E-7. By that time he'd been in 16 years and had the same weight as I did at 4 years... though of course a lot more experience and in a combat unit would probably garner a lot more respect).

[Prince of Boredom]

I'd actually like to request that Nomad be lowered to E-3... he's not really in charge of anyone and I just don't see it making sense that he's an E-5... see my last post.

[Heritage]

Just for fun, here are the major NPCs you guys have encountered, based on their current ranks:

O6

GEN Henry 'Manticore' Ballard

GEN Seaton 'Hack' Hackney

GEN Renee 'Chimera' Mohammed

O5

COL Randolph Cyrus Bledsoe, Intelligence

O3

CPN Eugene Delacroix III, Infantry

E5

MSGT Marena Colby, Infantry

MCHF George Kelso, Transport and Supply

E4

SSPEC Kyle Jubersky, Engineers

E3

SPEC LeBeau Chambers, Engineers

SPEC David Mortimer, Engineers

CPL Philip Daniels, Infantry

E2

S2G Lynn Epstein

Technically, Dr. Vanderlay has no rank in the Greens, but was more or less treated as an O1 by the brass, though you are under no obligation to treat that way.

[Heritage]

I'd actually like to request that Nomad be lowered to E-3... he's not really in charge of anyone and I just don't see it making sense that he's an E-5... see my last post.

←

Okay, edited the post. I had put you higher, since you were in Trans-D, but seeing as you were sort of just grabbed as a guinea pig due to your abilities, that makes sense.

To be honest, Griff feels like a 1st Lieutenant (O2) to me, so he might get a bump up.

Anyone else want to be moved up or down, within reason?

As far as the Cobras are concerned, remember there only 75 of them total - they are very elite, even in a tiny organization like the Greens, which is why I was putting them at sergeant level, which I am totally fine with now. I might add a few since structure has been changed a bit, but they are far from common; Cobras are trained to be able to work as heavy weapon support at the platoon level, and don't actually work together in teams larger than two very often.

[BlueNinja]

Judy should probably only be E4; while she's perfectly capable at all of the engineering, and she's a good people person, she's not the personality to be in charge of a huge number of other engineers. A promotion later in game after I've played her for a bit will be better.

[Heritage]

Judy should probably only be E4; while she's perfectly capable at all of the engineering, and she's a good people person, she's not the personality to be in charge of a huge number of other engineers.  A promotion later in game after I've played her for a bit will be better.

←

Done.

[Alex Green]

Isn't E4 4 dots of rank? What does Vlad default to?

[Heritage]

Isn't E4 4 dots of rank?  What does Vlad default to?

←

At this point, I'm opening it up to people to choose their rank, within reason, so there really isn't a 'default' as such anymore, though I guess E5 would be the closest thing to it. E4 is four ranks of Enlisted, which puts you in a position of some authority over other Engineers, but obviously under an E5.

A Master Chief is gonna be in charge of a particular area, like the garage at Bravo, making sure that all the alcohol-fuled 'boozeburners' are maintained at all times, writing up duty rosters, discipling wayward techs who get into mischief, etc. If you think of it in terms of a real world job, an E5 would be like a branch or store manager, with a bunch of E4's acting as his assitants, helping him to run the shifts and such.

[Heritage]

Unless there are any objections, I'm making Grizzly's character Hawkeye an O2, making him the highest-ranking PC. I think this will help keep things sane, having one PC at the top, and Grizz is okay with it if everyone else is; what say the rest of you?

[Asbjørn]

what say the rest of you?

::thumbup1

[Alex Green]

RE: Hawkeye

I'm good with it.

RE: Rank

OK, Vlad's E5. That sounds about right.

Misc comments about Rank:

One of the issues we are dealing with is novas in general. For example, Vlad has 5's in Wits, Int, & Chr, and he has a few of the 'Command' type skills. If he were a baseline he'd be insanely tallented, and that's before you have misc factors like enhanced senses.

Now granted, we need only a few chiefs and a lot more indians; and also granted, Vlad doesn't make a lot of sense as an officer since in combat he isn't going to be able to give or receive orders.

[Grizzly]

What do the others think about it? ::confused

I would like to hear your opinions, too.

BTW, it doesn´t help just to have only a good command skill. That just says that you are able to give commands and the others will follow them. The more important part is that they know that these commands make sense and that the people respect you and have confidence(?) in your person. For example: Mega Char+Commanding voice doesn´t help in a combat situation when you have no idea of tactics or when the people don´t know what to do by themselves, they only do what you have told them to do.(>radio-controled robot syndrome ::devil )

Just my 2c to this