Aberrant: Trans-Dimensional Explorations - SuperGeek Enterprises: Exploration

[BlueNinja]

I don't think it quite works this way unless you have that mental enhancement "perfect memory"?

Worse, 300K pages of diagrams for something that is probably a quantum gadget is a real set of problems.

1) If it is a gadget then the diagrams might not help us.

At least someone gets it.

2) Just storing something like that is a problem, meaning that if it takes dozens of centuries to rebuild the technology base then by that time whatever we stored the diagrams on will have lost it's batteries.

3) Building it is likely to be impossible.  If it is just us alone, rebuilding the technology base of hundreds of Mega-Int novas suggests it will take more time than the planet has before the sun explodes.

Nah. The six of you could probably build up to pre-Industrial in under a century; say about five to hit reliable electronic age. What none of you have are Inventive Genius, Engineering and Scientific Prodigy, and maxed-out Engineering and Science skills.

4) Assuming for a moment that it's possible for us to take a copy of the specs, and assuming we run into a civilization that can understand the specs, this almost describes a civilzation we don't want to have the specs.

5) Assuming that we have the specs doesn't get us home because getting us home requires a map.  I.e. what frequency is "home" on?  I seriously doubt even Mike knows that because setting up the gate on a different planet implies different settings.

::biggrin

6) And I'm skipping various other legal and ethical issues of giving these kinds of plans to a mentally unstable nova.

Pat? Mentally unstable? ::happy

[BlueNinja]

Oh, and Eli would not need to spend Willpower to resist Ash's speech, because he's not the main target of the speech. Pat, obviously, does and did so.

[Nullifier]

Actually, Alex, it's 'Eidetic Memory.' And my electronic storage device doesn't need batteries. ::biggrin

As for maxed out skills and enhancements, that probably wouldn't take more than a few years at most, less given already mega-intelligent novas.

It'll mean that Utopia, or the US Government, managed to get past a dozen pissed off novas, and all of Michal's planning and nova-tech, to get the gate.

That's not necessarily true. Could be the Teragen, or the Directive, or Kuro-tek, or even a small nuclear device or orbital kinetic railgun.

[Alex Green]

  Nah.  The six of you could probably build up to pre-Industrial in under a century; say about five to hit reliable electronic age.  What none of you have are Inventive Genius, Engineering and Scientific Prodigy, and maxed-out Engineering and Science skills.  ::biggrin

If Paul needs to invent all that technology and has several centuries to do so, arguebly this would cause him to buy more dots of that sort of thing.

And I haven't done the math yet, but I suspect it would still be easier to increase quantum and then buy CTT.

Heck, if we are going to take 5 centuries then I might as well try for Q10.

[Alex Green]

Actually, Alex, it's 'Eidetic Memory.'  And my electronic storage device doesn't need batteries. ::biggrin

As for maxed out skills and enhancements, that probably wouldn't take more than a few years at most, less given already mega-intelligent novas.

None of which deals with the fact that Claire didn't think that Mike could be telepathed.

[Nullifier]

... There may be a solution to that problem, but I think we should just wait and see how this plays out. If it proves to be a big problem, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

[BlueNinja]

That's not necessarily true. Could be the Teragen, or the Directive, or Kuro-tek, or even a small nuclear device or orbital kinetic railgun.

Well, the 'who' of it might be up in the air; Richard said the two groups most likely to want to shut Michal down. But the 'how' of it is pretty much the same.

Go look at the N! N!ewsline thread. Where do you think Utopia got their design for those quantum shields? A small nuclear device will not work unless they manage to smuggle it inside first. And you're all more than two thousand feet underground. Michal has good reason to be paranoid. ::glare They really are out to get him.

[Bahamut810]

You know what they say...

"Just becuase I'm paranoid, dosen't mean they aren't out to get me."

[Nullifier]

Pat's been asking for specs since he got into this, and the lack of anything along those lines being forthcoming means he's now convinced that this whole thing is just too risky and dangerous, and so he wants no part of it. Standard doctrine: if they won't at least show me how it's made, even if I wouldn't understand it, they're hiding something and I'm in grave danger if I participate in the use of the device. It's not like he needs the money, and he really doesn't fancy getting stranded on the ass end of nowhere again, which Michal's total lack of disclosure makes him think a rather likely possibility. Nothing anyone could say could convince him otherwise, and he now assumes that anyone trying to talk to him is attempting to manipulate him thanks to Ash. Michal had best pray that he abides by that non-disclosure agreement, or realistically Utopia's S&T division will come down on him like the hammer of god.

Fortunately for Michal he's the ST's character, and as I'm removing my character from the main plotline of this game, Pat effectively becomes 'background.' While I reserve the right to play this character in other games, I relinquish his actions, so long as they remain in the background and in character, to the ST.

[Bahamut810]

Because as we know...persuader is *so* obvious. ::rolleyes

[Nullifier]

Having to burn a WP to resist someone trying to pursuade you into doing something you don't want to do with every fiber of your being is pretty obvious. Pat's been around novas, and he knows that some have the ability to convince anyone of anything. I think it's pretty cut and dried.

[Bahamut810]

You might want to read the enhancement. All that makes you do is consider what he suggests really reasonable (giving so many successes to a natural roll). You are describing "The Voice" or something similar to *that* (just like phoenix did). The WP expendature would be you being so stubborn you dont want to listen to reason.

And just becuase you have been around nova's dosen't mean you automatically have "manipulation senses"

[Nullifier]

Actually, any willpower expendiature represents extraordinary effort on behalf of the character.

You spend Willpower when your character pushes himself beyond his normal limits in an attempt to do something extraordinary.

Aberrant p.145

If Pat had to spend a willpower to not be persuaded to believe he wasn't in danger of being stranded without the specs, which he believed with every fiber of his being that he was, then he certainly noticed the attempt. Given that Ash's words on review aren't in and of themselves particularly persuasive, and given that it's known widely that some novas can convince anyone of anything, and given that he had to make an extraordinary effort to resist being persuaded, it's logical to conclude that a mega-intelligent, mega-witty nova like Pat would put two and two together, and quickly at that.

[Nullifier]

Anyhow, I'm done arguing about it. If you still disagree, that's your right, but what's done is done.

[BlueNinja]

Standard doctrine: if they won't at least show me how it's made, even if I wouldn't understand it, they're hiding something and I'm in grave danger if I participate in the use of the device.

Michal never said he wouldn't show you how it worked. All that was said is that he won't give you the blueprints neccessary to build your own.

As for Pat, in general, you can do whatever you like with him in anyone else's not-my-universe game, since that Pat will obviously have no connection to a Michal that doesn't exist or an SGE that was never founded. He may, however, reappear at a later date, I really haven't decided yet. But he will still be ugly, a pain in the buttocks, and not someone that anyone wants to spend time around, assuming he does appear again.

[Alex Green]

Pat's been asking for specs since he got into this, and the lack of anything along those lines being forthcoming means he's now convinced that this whole thing is just too risky and dangerous, and so he wants no part of it.

Not a shock considering his background. Actually with his background arguably he’d reach that conclusion regardless of whether he had the specs. We *are* running the risk of getting stranded somewhere.

…which Michal's total lack of disclosure makes him think a rather likely possibility. Nothing anyone could say could convince him otherwise…

Don’t ask for what you aren’t willing to give.

In order for Pat to participate Michal has to submit to a deep telepathic probe. This would entrust his life work into the hands of a self described “mad man”. On the other hand, Pat is unwilling to submit to even a mind-link.

Michal had best pray that he abides by that non-disclosure agreement, or realistically Utopia's S&T division will come down on him like the hammer of god.

If he isn’t then from Michal’s view point it’s best for him to leave now.

…I'm removing my character from the main plotline of this game,…

So is it new character time?

[phoenix]

I'm sorry my character's being a bit of a b!tch about this, guys. ::brick I'll try not to let this drag out the pre-expedition segment of the game any more than it has.

You are describing "The Voice" or something similar to *that* (just like phoenix did).

Rereading the power, you're right, I probably should have described the effect as being more subtle. To be fair, though, you yourself didn't describe the power at all except by having Ash try to literally persuade us, and that might have gone some ways towards letting you shape our roleplayed reactions to a greater degree.

[Nullifier]

He may, however, reappear at a later date, I really haven't decided yet. But he will still be ugly, a pain in the buttocks, and not someone that anyone wants to spend time around, assuming he does appear again.

Again, I reiterate that if you plan to use Pat at all that he is to remain in the background. If he actually 'reappears' meaning the character has direct contact with the others, I'd want to actually play the character myself. The only reason that I'm reliquishing control of the character is so that he remain permanently in the background. If that condition every changes, though, then he's still my character.

Don’t ask for what you aren’t willing to give.

In order for Pat to participate Michal has to submit to a deep telepathic probe. This would entrust his life work into the hands of a self described “mad man”. On the other hand, Pat is unwilling to submit to even a mind-link.

Not true. All Michal would have to do is lower his defenses and think about the things Pat wanted to know. Not only that, but Michal wouldn't even notice the minor intrusion.

Michal never said he wouldn't show you how it worked. All that was said is that he won't give you the blueprints neccessary to build your own.

If you don't see the blueprints there's no way of knowing how something works. Any explaination would be incomplete to a huge degree otherwise. Besides which, I said he won't show me how it's made, not how it works, two things which are related, but different. Try to read what I write before you reply.

At any rate, no I'm not making a new character. Again, if Pat remains in the background he's the ST's to control. The minute he becomes a part of the main plotline again, however, he's mine.

[Alex Green]

Not true. All Michal would have to do is lower his defenses and think about the things Pat wanted to know. Not only that, but Michal wouldn't even notice the minor intrusion.

Minor??? Let's just do that math.

Fact: Core Bk, Page 225: Each success achieved on the Perception + Telepathy Roll allows the telepath to find and read one fact per action. The Storyteller may… rule some facts… require multiple successes.

Fact: APG, Page 145: ”…The gadget can’t have a Quantum score more than one higher than the gadgeteer’s own Quantum”.

Fact: CTT is Q-min 6.

Conclusion: Michel is Q5. Everything Considered, I think he’s also M-Int 5. So these “missing diagrams” were built by an M-Int 5 for his own gadget, and I’d guess he’s spent years making them.

Conclusion: Just understanding them is going to be one heck of a challenge unless you also have both M-Int 5 and Scientific Prodigy.

If the rest of the gadget takes 300K diagrams, do we have any guesses on how much is still inside his head? 1%? That would be 3000 diagrams (pretty reasonable for M-Int 5).

So if we assume Pat can take one diagram out of Michel’s head per action (which is really unlikely unless Pat also has M-Int 5), it should only take 3000 actions to get the job done.

I’d call that a deep scan. ::devil I’ll also note you’d have the opportunity to totally reprogram his brain. Considering Pat’s unwillingness to even have a mind-link, I can’t imagine him allowing someone else that kind of access to his mind.

I’ll also note a brief conversation probably won’t cut it.

Worse, if we assume M-Int scales like M-Str, then we aren't talking about 3000 actions, we are talking 1.2 Million actions (assuming that M-Int 5 is 20x as "strong", Telepathy is reduced by 400 (20^2) because both duration and through put are affected).

[phoenix]

Moreover, we as players have the ST's assurance that we absolutely won't need this information at all, even if we were able to absorb it all and put it to use. This, in my mind, is more of an exercise in how rude our characters are willing to let Michal be to us.

[Alex Green]

Moreover, we as players have the ST's assurance that we absolutely won't need this information at all, even if we were able to absorb it all and put it to use. This, in my mind, is more of an exercise in how rude our characters are willing to let Michal be to us.

←

To me it's just the opposite. I mean, none of us insisted on knowing how "Thrown" was grown before stepping through in Heritage's game, right? ::huh

What has changed? Security? From the "Sliders" series I can say their real problems came from letting other places have CTT. And that's on top of the other (local) organizations. Just for starters, if Mal isn't ready to lead his people to another world, I'd be real nervous about knowing how to do it without him. ::devil

We the players were supposed to build characters who were actually willing to step through the gate. ::wink

[Nullifier]

Actually, as a roleplayer, I like to build characters, and then let the ST convince them that what they want the character to do is in the character's best interest.

What's changed? Well, that's pretty simple: in H's game the Greens were desperate, moreover they were soldiers. Desperate people do desperate things, and soldiers follow orders and don't ask too many questions.

That is very different from this game where we're being hired to participate in a highly illegal and extremely dangerous venture for the sake of either money or intellectual curiosity. Neither of which is worth risking getting stranded in another dimension with not even a slim chance of getting home, I don't care who you are. I'm sorry, but them's just the facts. ::indifferent

IMHO Unless your characters are stupid or insane, they should come to the same conclusion if they really stopped to think about it. ::rolleyes

[Bahamut810]

Uhhh...no.

1. Asking for detailed schematics on that piece of equipment is unreasonable. Its a piece of secret technology that is obviously the light of the bosses life (and years of dedicated research, and billions of his dollars)...and we were hired as explorers, not scientists. There is such a thing as propiatary knowledge, especially when it comes to blacktec.

2. Any exploration comes at risk. Columbus couldent guarentee success, or a safe return. Neither could Magellion (sic). Neither could NASA. Neither could...well, you get the idea. Any exploration of something like this comes with the risk of not returning. And quite frankly...being stranded in a different dimention is not nearly as bad as starving to death, or dieing of scurvy (depending on dimention of course).

[Alex Green]

1.  Asking for detailed schematics on that piece of equipment is unreasonable.

Not to mention impossible (see my previous post).

Actually, as a roleplayer, I like to build characters, and then let the ST convince them that what they want the character to do is in the character's best interest.

Bad idea. ::ohmy It isn't in Pat's best interest unless he's an explorer or he's running from something or whatever. But the standard nova isn't going to be interested in this and Michal would have selected for people who would be.

That is very different from this game where we're being hired to participate in a highly illegal and extremely dangerous venture for the sake of either money or intellectual curiosity. Neither of which is worth risking getting stranded in another dimension with not even a slim chance of getting home, I don't care who you are. I'm sorry, but them's just the facts.   ::indifferent

Knowing that this issue might come up, Paul has two excellent reasons for being involved in this.

1) People here want him dead.

2) The on going nova-human issues (presumably the Night of Long Knives has happened and the Teragen is now saying things like "death to them all".)

Meaning it's going to hit the fan and it'd be real nice to be able to flee to the equivalent of 13th century England (or ancient Rome, or 20th Century Pre-N day) WHERE WE WOULD BE GODS. ::sly ::ultracool Alternative Timelines probably means "No Novas".

Further, as for this "stranded" part, I don't see it as an issue even then. Paul can survive *anywhere*. Worse case is he get's stuck on a rock for a century or two and needs to increase quantum and learn CTT. Since IMHO they won't be sending us to rocks, that seems very unlikely. ::glare

So basically I built Paul with the idea that he would be willing to do this (many or most of my other characters wouldn't be willing to do this for the reasons you outlined). Other reasons for going would be having "Explorer" as your nature, etc.

[Nullifier]

Actually, his Nature is Explorer. That's what he does, and that's what he is. How do you think he ended up in the middle of a sun?

Just because it's a character's nature, doesn't mean they're blinded by it unless they've got low willpower, which is what made Verse so problematic, he refused to do anything he percieved as being the slightest bit wrong, according to his own personal interpretation of the world of course, and he never thought enough before acting, believing his was alwysthe right course of action. Pat, on the other hand, learned the hard way: never go somewhere without taking your means home with you, and had a high enough willpower not to be totally overwhelmed by the mere opportunity being offered.

[Alex Green]

Actually, his Nature is Explorer. That's what he does, and that's what he is. How do you think he ended up in the middle of a sun?

I'd assumed he'd started that way but his nature had changed to "survivor" somewhere down the line.

Just because it's a character's nature, doesn't mean they're blinded by it unless they've got low willpower...

I think you mean, "out of willpower".

...Pat, on the other hand, learned the hard way: never go somewhere without taking your means home with you, and had a high enough willpower not to be totally overwhelmed by the mere opportunity being offered.

Let me ask a different question. Assume for the moment that Michal let Pat in his mind and Pat realizes that he has NO HOPE of understanding, much less rebuilding this. That Michal isn't just withholding it, that it's plain not possible.

Would that change the logic then? Cause this sure sounds like an explorer's dream.

[Nullifier]

WARNING: If you don't care about Alex's and mine ongoing discussion about why I decided to pull Pat, don't read the rest of this post. You've been warned.

Let me ask a different question. Assume for the moment that Michal let Pat in his mind and Pat realizes that he has NO HOPE of understanding, much less rebuilding this. That Michal isn't just withholding it, that it's plain not possible.

Would that change the logic then? Cause this sure sounds like an explorer's dream.

O.k., let me make it simple: your assumption relies on an assumption. That assumption is that it's possible for one person to understand something that's so complicated/complex that another person given an unlimited amount of time could never possibly understand. Pat doesn't buy into that assumption, so your question is for all intents and purposes meaningless in this case. The fact is no one would even give him electronic copies of the physical schematics that they had on file, let alone what you're suggesting. You don't have to have a 'Survivor' nature to not want to chance being permanently exiled from even your home planet, let alone your home universe. Even if you're an Explorer it's a risk not many would be crazy or foolhardy enough to take. Considering that Pat took a similar risk before and was burned, literally and metaphorically, for it he's right to be at least a bit cautious.

Besides, the arguements didn't track. First it's: "You wouldn't understand it so why bother?" But we're expected to learn how to fix what amounts to a mini portable one? ::huh Then it's all, "It's my life's work, money, wrong hands, yada yada." But if no one would understand, then what does it matter, and besides, it may be his life's work, but it's my life lived out stuck in another friggin' dimension. ::brick Finally, it's, "If we're gone, you're dead if you come back." But if it'd take so long for me to get back in that case anyhow, then that argument is completely moot 'cause chances are there won't be any remnant of whatever orginization that destroyed 'em left by the time I got back. Besides which Pat's wasn't privy to the uber-coolness of Michal's little base. He had no way of knowing how the base is protected or any of that, because everyone refused to give him any useful technical data.

Just because OOC we know things, that doesn't dictate what a character knows or thinks is reasonable at all. I reiterate my assertion that unless they have a damned good reason to either trust and believe in Michal's ingenuity and unrivaled power implicitly or to never come back to this universe again, ever, then they're either insane or extremely stupid. Just because he's the ST's character and the ST assures us that he's the good guy and no one's going to take him out, that doesn't mean that our characters have good reason to believe either of those things.

Much of his operation is hidden from public view, and so our characters can only speculate. Here he is testing us, assuming we'll all just go along and do whatever he wants and he hasn't given us any proof, other than a very strange but cryptic and kinda cornball display and a bunch of hoo-hah about interdimensional travel. He could just be mad, or the device could transport us somewhere or somewhen other than he thought, or rip us to pieces, or strand us in a pocket universe he's made, or any of a thousand other things. Yet he won't even let us look at the specs even though he's certain none of us could possibly understand them? As a sane, reasonable person, let me just say: F*** THAT!

I don't care if I can't understand it. At least I can call up someone who could and ask their independant opinion given a description. Or at some later date if it turns out I've been screwed, I'd at least have a chance to get back. Ye gods, you're talking about going further away from home than any other form of travel. Even time travel leaves you in the same universe, on the same timeline, at least if you don't mess with things in the past too much. We haven't even seen the tiniest bit of this universe, and now he wants us to go galivanting off to another without even a sure way back out of what? A sense that there aren't new frontiers to be explored? That's just laughable. Desperation to find a new homeworld for novas? Don't even start, that's already been covered in the N! flavor text. The urge to explore? Sure, but that only goes so far. Did the astronauts in the 60s go to the moon with little more than a launchable message tube to send for their ride home with? I don't think so.

If it's your contention that the reality of normal human instincts and desires is trumped by the need for continuity and plot, I would contend that that's just poor roleplaying. Even the desire to get off Earth or out of the Solar System for a while can't justify such an insane risk, 'cause we live in a really big universe, and there are plenty of places even within our solar system to hide out and even do interesting work, and there are the means to get there too, in the novas themselves. So unless you've made your peace with never seeing the universe of your birth again, which is unlikely, taking this kind of risk goes against our most deeply ingrained instincts. Finally, an Explorer isn't really exploring if it's already settled and he is unable to get a report back. Why do you think Pat came back to Earth? It wasn't for the wonderful personalities here. It was to report back his data, which is what explorers do. It's great going out and discovering new things, but it's functionally meaningless unless you can tell others who don't already know those things about them.

Again, let me just say that H's game was much different as: the Greens were all high ranking soldiers who implictly trusted their commanders and were in turn trusted operatives. The Greens were in a desperate situation, and as they had many members who were baselines and/or not space travel worthy, and given the difficulty in constructing a big enough ship to take everyone as well as the problem of finding a terracompatible planet, trying to find another Earth in another dimension started to look like a reasonable if hellishly risky proposition. All the Greens were not only commited to the cause, for many of them the Greens were the only family they had anymore and they were willing to do /anything/ to ensure the survival of the Green movement. As such the characters had ample reason to undertake the journey, which is not the case in this game so far as I can tell for any characters besides the ST's who are the ones conspicuously /not/ going.

In conclusion: I try to play my characters according to who I've built them to be. That means if the character wouldn't do something that the ST wants him to do, even if it's in his best interests I won't do it. I won't assume anything other than publically available knowledge without specific background conferring such. I will not make assumptions about the motives or capabilities of other characters without good reason, nor will my characters take things they are told at face value necessarily, again without good reason. For these reasons my characters don't always thrive and win and sometimes I'm forced to withdraw one from a plotline being forced by the ST that fails to convince my character to follow it. I don't regret this because I'm much more interested in playing a character well than in playing the game well or even at all. ::ultracool

[phoenix]

I can definitely understand Pat making the decision he did, but keep in mind that that logic doesn't necessarily apply for other characters, especially ones who aren't as paranoid as Pat and haven't had his experiences within the star. Eli in particular has respect for Michal, if he doesn't particularly like him, just for being another superhuman engineer.

[Nullifier]

Duplicate post deleted.

[Nullifier]

I can definitely understand Pat making the decision he did, but keep in mind that that logic doesn't necessarily apply for other characters, especially ones who aren't as paranoid as Pat and haven't had his experiences within the star. Eli in particular has respect for Michal, if he doesn't particularly like him, just for being another superhuman engineer.

I had a nice long reply to this almost finished, then lost it somehow. I'm not going to get into it again, 'cause I really don't care if your characters or this game are entirely unrealistic. I just want to make clear that Pat's not paranoid, not one little bit. All his reactions are consistent with simple logic, logic that's applicable to all our characters due to the situation itself, pretty much regardless of the characters' backgrounds.

What it all boils down to is that your characters are being asked to trust, pretty much blindly, in three things: Michal (his benevolence, his ingenuity, his knowledge of reality and the multi-verse, his power, his engineering skill etc.), at least two extremely complicated devices that no one will provide the specs for, and the nature of reality itself not screwing you over. I could write out long descriptions as to why all these things are huge problems and that together they should make any rational person who really stopped to think about it not only scared but by the time they're at the point you folks are at, freaked out and wanting to leave. I won't though, 'cause like I said I don't really care if your characters react realistically.

[Nullifier]

I just want to say that backing up pretty light shows and a bunch of rigamarole about transdimensional travel with more pretty light shows and more rigamarole about incoming destructive space aliens is not the way to inspire trust. If Pat hadn't left before, he'd have left just about now.

This will be my last post in this forum, please PM any responses directly to me.

Since this game has begun, the ST's characters have done nothing besides make claims that become more fantastic and ubelievable as they go along while systematically testing the PCs. To support these claims, they have offered exactly squat. No specs, no hard data, nothing but fantastic claims, pretty light shows, and tests. When one of the PCs requested at a minimum some specs, he was given the run-around, in front of everyone, with the ST's characters making arguments that didn't track or make any sense when parsed logically. Now you're being given what appears to be a valid reason to ignore all those warning signs. Think about this:

1. Michal has plenty of his own people that he knows and trust who he could send to do this, yet he hired you folks who he doesn't know or trust, and who don't know or trust him.

2. Not one single shred of proof has been forthcoming as to the validity of any of Michal's claims, and the one attempt made by one of us to get some proof was rebuffed with extreme vigor, not allowing any room for compromise.

3. The one person who was, realistically, a qualified and experienced explorer was so upset by Michal's complete lack of disclosure of any proof for his claims and by the mere possibility of being coarsed into participating that he left.

4. Even if you assumed that everything that Michal was saying was true, which as I've pointed out is an insanely huge leap of faith to be taking on the basis of a couple of light shows, then I can't imagine why he wouldn't want to warn the rest of the world of the impending danger and share his escape plan immediately. More gates could be built, not to mention spaceships and planetary defense apparatus. Rivalries could be put aside for the sake of survival, and the invasion could be repelled. He could have the backing of every single powerful orginization and government on the planet, but instead he decides to do it on his own? I don't understand that, and I really don't understand why none of your characters has noticed and/or mentioned this.

5. From a reasonable perspective it seems like you're being manipulated and lied to. Why not inform and convince us of the imminent threat first? Why all the crap about interdimensional travel? I'll tell you why, if I were manipulating people I'd ease them into it, get them believing in the implausible, and then get them thinking that it might not be worth the risk. Then I'd spring on them the whole imminent doom bit, and they'd be so freaked that they'd cease to care about trivial things like risking being trapped in another universe, or silly things like proof and technical specs and data.

6. None of the aguments put forwards by the STs characters have made any sense. All of their actions have telegraphed fear, suspiscion, and distrust. Now they've admitted to deliberately keeping the entire rest of the world in the dark about an impending alien invasion. These people obviously can't be trusted. If your characters aren't shit-scared of these people by now, not to mention angry at them for their concealment of the invasion, then they, in my book at least, are not realistic characters, or they're insane, stupid, or deliberately trying not to think about their situation in a rational manner.

Edit: At a minimum, they're either being lied to or Michal and his people have been concealing evidence of an alien invasion on the way as well as a possbile solution from the entire world. Either option would make me, personally, angry and scared at this point. I can't say for certain how anyone else would react as I'm not those people, but I'm pretty sure that anger and fear are standard reactions in such circumstances. If it's a lie, then I would be angry for the obvious reason that I've been lied to and scared of their intentions, because why the elaborate lies if they didn't have a concealed, and likely sinister agenda? If it's the truth, I would be angry because their concealment has wasted valuable time and probably lives, and scared because they obviously intend to maintain the concealment as long as they can, which means I'm in great danger since I'd feel obligated both ethically and morally to reveal their secrets.

[archer]

Well, gee-whiz, Nulli, thanks for letting us know that our characters are totally unrealistic.

Whether intentional or not, your last few posts have been incredibly condescending and rude, to both the other players and the ST.

I was initially interested to see the reasons behind why your character left, and I thought you did a good job of showing Pat's perspective. There were a lot of good reasons there, and I understand your point...but when you start telling me how MY character is insane and/or just plain stupid, it kinda ticks me off.

It ticks me off even more when you make no allowances for any other perfectly valid RP reasons the other characters(and their players) may have for following along with Michal's plan, and lump everyone together in the cauldron of unreality.

Look, I get it. You make some very good, logical points about why the whole adventure just sounds nuts. The problem is you're basing those arguments completely from your own perspective, and ignoring or simply discounting the way other people think and feel.

I've said my piece. Now, can we get back to actually playing the game and leaving this OOC thread for stuff other than inactive characters who are no longer even playing? Please?

[Bahamut810]

I would have left this alone...but the way you put that is particularly insulting to everyone playing this game.

As for Ash, he has a 'supergut' and has got a good feeling about this. He knows Michal won't turn on them without a damned good reason.

As for everyone else...I dont suppose you read when I posted about explorations of the past, did you? People have been exploring without a good possability of coming back for as long as we have been going places we have never been before.

How many people tried to find that alternate route to India before Columbus did? How many people tried to circle the world before Magellion? How much a guarentee do you think their crews had? What was the margin of success that was given to Yuri Gagarin when he became the first man in space for *him* to get home? People have been pushing the envelope with little guarentee of success for as long as we have had places to explore. Sometimes it worked (Europe found North America) and sometimes it didn't (the multitude of ships we dont know about that were lost as sea). Hell, even the Enterprise(s) 'Boldly Went where no one had gone before' and was almost destroyed on a number of occasions.

It does all depend on what your 'explorer' nature entails, but for a true explorer bent on actual exploration. Thats what being an explorer is all about, risking your ass (diving as far as you can down the marianas trench) to find just that one new fact. Then you have thoes people who are along for the money or for difference reasons (getting away from the cops), but as long as they were informed as to what was going on (sailing to the new world) they would know what the risks were.

You are also forgetting that humanity has a long history of blind faith in many things when they have no reason to distrust something someone says, especially when they are doing a service for that person.

My second point in all this is that Pat was being *completely* unreasonable. You dont give your employer unreasonable demands and expect them to fall over themselves to follow them when you are 100% expendable at this point and have a particularly bad reputation.

You think when Lexmark trains a tech a technition to work on their large scale laser printer, they tell them exactly whats on each board? That they give them any infromation they could happen to ever need? No. That is propiatary information that they just dont need to know. We were hired to be explorers, not mechanics. We are being told how to repair the thing, and that is all we need to know. *Especially* when we are *brand new* employees, some of who have questionable histories (and mental faculties).

You are *ordering* Michal to give you the thing *he* has put his blood, sweat and tears into for the past few years...someone who is mentally unstable and can warp out of his facility (and away from Totenez if he is quick enough) with no problems. When he was being hired to explore the other side...and was in the middle of getting a lesson on how to fix it if that was needed.

We were charged to make characters who would be willing to do this, and you made an insane ugly man who was refused to work with his employer (the basis for the campaign). Who is a bad RPer now?

[archer]

I'll say this now, I do not want this to turn into a Nullifier bash-fest. If it does, the thread will be locked and a new one created.

Nulli seems perfectly willing to respond individually to everyone via PM, as he has just responded to me. Let's keep it in PM's for dealing with the remainder of this sore subject.

Thank you.

[Bahamut810]

Sorry...I had actually started mine before his second post (his last one before mine), but got sidetracked.

[Nullifier]

I would ask that you and Bahamut remove your last posts, unless you want a response on here.

[Bahamut810]

I'm not. Dont call people names if you don't expect to get told why you are wrong.

[phoenix]

I'm going to go ahead and Moderate this, since I don't really want Archer to lock the thread.

-No more argument on this subject from now on, except in PMs if you want.

-Unless I'm superseded on this, nobody has to remove any posts. What's said is said, and this is starting to look like a battle for the last word. I've got some points I'd like to make too, but I'm not going to because this subject has just had it, and I'd be grateful if everyone follows my example.

K? </moderation>

[Nullifier]

Fine then. I didn't call anyone names, not in public. You did. You may have found what I had to say insulting, but don't accuse me of calling people names until I actually do so.

You refered to me as a bad roleplayer, the first bit of public naming-calling on this thread. I now refer to you as such. There, we're even, and I didn't even have to defend myself by actually tearing apart your false analogies in public. Back to your regularly scheduled game.

[archer]

::brick

Well, that was productive. *puts on Admin hat*

One more remark from anyone besides me about this crap and the thread is locked.

Phoenix, you did the right thing and I appreciate it. Unfortunately, you were also right about the battle for the last word. Well, ultimately I win that fight, so unless someone really wants to push me, let it go.