Aberrant RPG - Aberrant 2.0

[Reighnhell]

I have been running ST Aberrant for years now, and I have a big file of home brewed powers and rule revisions. Most of you probably have similar material hanging around. ST Aberrant is a great setting, but is very much a first edition game. Editing problems and imbalanced powers have plauged the system from it's inception.

What I propose is the assembled Aberrant ST's and players put our head's together to create an updated, streamlined and revised Aberrant using the ST game system. Fixed what needs to be fixed clarify whats needs to be clarified and give a little something back to the game line we love.

Thank You for your time.

[Bahamut810]

I would say go ahead and post what you have here. I think that an "Options" e-book would be a nice project for the EON community to get into.

I would say just go ahead and post what you have and see where you can take it form there. Im sure that some other of our esteemed collegues might add some of their stuff as well..

[Reighnhell]

Ok, here is my first proposed revision.

Armor (Revised)

Level: 2

Quantum Minimum: 1

Dice Pool: N/A

Range: Self

Area: N/A

Duration: Permanent

Effect: Character receives an Armor Add of [3] per dot in Armor.

Multiple Actions: N/A

Description: As pg.183 of Aberrant.

Extras: Super-Heavy Armor- Functions as listed on pg. 183 of Aberrant, except the Armor Bonus is + [4].

[Finbar]

1) Still needing fedback on the Density Control (Decrease) thing;-)...

2) Should we just eliminate the "multiple actions" category altogether? Relative to situation, I could use Armor, but nothing else (not even move!).

3) Are you sure you want to make just Armor adds? If I use anything with damage adds, those armor adds disappear.

Kiba: I have Level 10 Armor with Super-Heavy and Mastery III, for a total of 800 armor adds.

Joey: I have a 30mm cannon.

Kiba: NOOOOO!

Don't be a Kiba ::closedeyes ....

[sOrry; it's Saturday!]

FR

[Reighnhell]

1) I will mull over the Density Decrease thing, I have some ideas...

2)The Multi Action category is primarily to keep the presentation format consistant. Since the power has no action based effect, it is N/A.

3) Indeed, makes those baselines with the appropriate tools a bit more intimidating, doesn't it. And Mega-Stamina would continue to add to the basic Bashing/Lethal soak ratings. Haven't decided about Invulnerabilty and Force Field yet.

[Bahamut810]

youcould just say its not affected by AP

[Reighnhell]

Well, AP is another story. The Armor piercing Extra was going to get a flat reduces soak by 1/2, and only soak granted by Armor or armor like abilities ( Artificial Armor, Eufiber, the Armor Power and Force Field). I am looking for streamlining and simplification, which means occasionally making hamburger out of a few sacred cows.

Many of my Aberrant revision idea's have been inspired by the Exalted version of the ST system.

[phoenix]

I am looking for streamlining and simplification, which means occasionally making hamburger out of a few sacred cows.

::laugh

[malkboy]

Moooooooooo! ::ninja ::ninja ::ninja MOoooooooooooooooO!

(Translation: I will send out my finest Ninja cows to protect the sacred cows... Please make beef of them all)

[Finbar]

1) Multiple Actions: Actually, I was referring to getting rid of the "Mulltiple Actions" category for all powers, period. It just seems to be applied randomly, or with little thought in a lot of cases (Matter Chameleon, a reflexic power, isn't allowed as part of a multiple action, which makes no sense).

2) Armor adds: I would revising to a Level 1 power. Although it's still effective against most things, all I need to do is bring in a LAW (or any other weapon with adds) and all of your Armor (and apparently a lot of your other defenses) are history. In essence, it's just more effective to buy one dot of Mega-Strength and pile on the armor. Do you really want to see an abbie in a VARG?

[side Note: Keep in mind that, at three dots, a LAW is cheap enough to worry about.]

3) Sacred Cows: Think, Surgical Strikes. It's sokay to cull some from the herd, but don't go wading in just to kill; do it to make the herd stronger.

FR

[Reighnhell]

3) Sacred Cows: Think, Surgical Strikes. It's sokay to cull some from the herd, but don't go wading in just to kill; do it to make the herd stronger.

Agreed.

One of my goals for a system wide revision was to bring certain systems more in line with Adventure and Trinity. The standard Armor power is good, perhaps too good. By making Armor adhere to the same vehicle scale damage rules that quantum bolt obeys, it puts the offensive and defensive powers on a similar playing field. Sure your Nova could be taken down by a anti-tank weapon, but that represents the extreme force needed to stop a single nova!

If you want vehicle grade Armor, then buy Armor, if you want a higher bashing/lethal soak, invest in Mega-Stamina or Invulnerability.

[Finbar]

Rats...I hate doing math ::crazy...

Your Way: A three-dot Q-Bolt (assuming Q2) is going to 12d10[x] ("x" are the adds due to Quantum; with even one level of Armor, they disappear). The 12d10 isn't that hard to soak (Eufiber 5 and Mega-Stamina 3 (Resiliency) gets me down to 3d10L, for an average of 1 HL/attack (14 NP for that (include regular Stamina of 4) versus 15 NP for the Q-Bolt). This is also pretty close to maximum soaking (2 more levels by Mega-Stamina 5).

Note that any extra Armor is a waste here, because your soak (12) is good for almost anything without adds. Also, Mega-Strength in combat is useless against anyone with Armor 1 (if you rule that it's adding [5] in adds per level). And FF is now useless (because, if you change it to the same system (it adds soak adds), it'll be effectively negated (just as it negates damage adds)).

BTB Armor: The Q-bolt does 12d10L [4] damage. Against the combo listed, above, you're doing 4d10L. If I had simply bought Armor 5, I'd still be doing 1d10L. If I had bought the extras as above (adding 9/13 to my soak), I would be good against a Q-Bolt-5 (bashing)(Q3). I can also use FF to increase my soak.

(BTW: Yes, I'm ignoring Invulnerability. Invulnerability is only good against a specific attack (even with the Broad Category extra, I can change my Q-Bolt to Physical and void it.)

This creates four problems:

1) Three dots of Armor could soak anything short of Quantum powers, heavy weapons, or a high Mega-Strength (and even those were well-taken care of), but light weapons could sneak through. Now, one dot of Armor will nail Mega-Strength, eliminate light weapons altogether and some heavy weapons will no longer be threats, BUT Quantum powers and any weapons not eliminated just became nastier.

2) The arms race will be lost by the defender. In either example, the attacker is nowhere his limit as far as damage goes. The example I gave is near maximum of his ability to soak (only two lethal short), whereas the second example stiill has room to breath. Admittedly, I'm ignoring the effects of Mastery and Strengths, but as those apply to the attacker as well, they don't really count (especially as the damage thrown around will be far above the ability to take it).

3) Character death becomes far more likely. Since the ability to soak damage reaches a limit far quicker than the ability to deal it, characters are going to take a lot more damage. Admitedlty, dodging, speed, and relevant Enhancements and powers will increase in popularity, but so will Area Effect and MIRV, negating those advantages.

4) You're now going to need to go through each power, damage source and soaking source, and change that in order to "re-balance" things. Unless you wanted more death; in which case you've seriously upped the ante. This is sort of what I meant by "just killing"; by changing one power in one small way, you've created a whole mess of other issues. Rather than streamlining, you've made things muddier.

---------------------------

Something to consider, as well, is that there is a difference in personal taste. I appreciate that you may like more death; that's cool, but it's a personal taste. Someone else may like less death, and so would have suggested that Armor be a Level 1 power, but otherwise not have changed anything else. If we're serious about making the system make sense, we need to walk a fine road in the middle.

FR

[Reighnhell]

4) You're now going to need to go through each power, damage source and soaking source, and change that in order to "re-balance" things. Unless you wanted more death; in which case you've seriously upped the ante. This is sort of what I meant by "just killing"; by changing one power in one small way, you've created a whole mess of other issues. Rather than streamlining, you've made things muddier.

Re-Balancing is what I am looking for, my suggestion for Armor is only the first change that came to mind. If Armor is re-adjusted, so too must every offensive and defensive power. But Armor is simple, and it's best to start simply.

[Guest]

"First rule of great drama; start small, then build."

::devilangel

JC

[Finbar]

Slightly better tac:

What changes do you plan to the damage system?

[if we're going to change it anyway...]

FR

[Reighnhell]

As it stands, the basic damage resolution system works well enough. Primary adjustments would deal with powers and abilities that grant defensive modifications that would bring it more in line with established vehicle level combat ( and a Nova soak monster is essentially operating at a vehicular level of combat).

That said, the only defensive power I can see using the Armor add system would be the Armor power and Forcefield. But I see Forcefield being modified to have it's own soak and health levels, representing an actual barrier that must be comprimised before the nova using the ability could be injured.

[Bahamut810]

Well...I do like the idea of some powers just having a base reduction. Stm and Stm I think should stay the way it is (as there is a slight amount of chanse to any damage), but DD, Armor and Invunerablility (Possibly FF) should be a *base* amount of reduction.

I was saying to a friend the other day about how damage is much more impressive then the armor. to me is just that in a dice based system when someone can generate a good 6[10]B damage and you have 16 B soak...your going to get plastered. The base on the damage dosent leave any room to gamble on luck.

thats just my take on it

[malkboy]

I'm assuming you mean Stamina and M-Stamina, B?

Because any soak takes off automatic first, than damage dice, and while yes if you take it all away they still get to roll a single die, but a single die? (And what's more is if you have more soak or it's equal.. I let the damager and soaker each roll a die to see if you even get that 1 damage)

Meaning, in your scenario, according to the book you get at most 1 damage. (And with my way, you get a chance to soak that anyway!)

And the biggest problem I have with Reighnhell's FF change would be the fact that he more specifically defines the power (it's an actually always barrier) which in a minor way goes againist leaving the power more open for the players to define in the way they wish to use it.

Primary adjustments would deal with powers and abilities that grant defensive modifications that would bring it more in line with established vehicle level combat ( and a Nova soak monster is essentially operating at a vehicular level of combat).

I'm not sure, Reighnhell, why exactly you think something has to be modified to be in line with mobile combat principles. Ask any soldier.. the best way to stay alive is to not get hit.. not having a better kevlar vest (soak).

[Alex Green]

OK, I'm confused. I feel I missed another conversation.

What is an "armor add"? The book is fairly confusing on this point (I assume we are talking about car/vehical armors).

Page numbers would also be nice.

[Finbar]

1) Thanks for muddying the waters, Alex, you slime ::bigsmile!

2) Yo, Reighnhell, you need to call people on this kind of stuff! Armor adds work differently in Trinity vs. Abberant. The editors slept through this one.

---------------------------------------------------

In Trinity, some vehicles have armor that's in the form of x[y] (a main battle tank has 6[12] armor), with the [y] being the armor add. In most cases, the [y] is applied first. But, when it goes up against something with damage adds, such as 30mm gun (8d10L[5]), the damage adds and armor adds cancel out, and then damage is soaked normally. Thus, the tank would take 2d10L (the adds cancel out, and the tank soaks 6d10, leaving the last 2d10L). (Trinity, pg 247; for Abbie fans, I'll be getting to this in a sec...)

In Aberrant, however, it works differently (as per page 278). The armor adds are the minimum number of damage successes required to damage the vehicle in question, with damage adds canceling them out. Going back to the above example, the gun's [5] would cancel out some of the armor adds ([12]-[5]=[7]), and would then need to roll seven successes to effect the tank.

However, there are two possible interpretations. The first is that you can roll, and then soak as normal (so, you need to roll whatever damage dice you have, hope you get enough successes, and then subtract the non-add soak (so the damage would be 1d10L+any attack successes). Interpretation Two is that you soak, then roll, then apply damage as normal (the same amount of damage, but not as likely to damage someone).

Please let me know if reading that right (I could be so wrong!). But, if I am, then Armor as adds would be way to powerful; at the upper levels ( [12]+) Q-Bolts are no longer a major worry, unless I'm backing it with a high Quantum....

Why not just shift it over to the Trinity way?

FR

[Alex Green]

Why not just shift it over to the Trinity way?

Because one level of Armor shouldn't snuff 5 levels of mega strength.

-----------------------

From the sounds of it, [Armor Add] in Aberrent only applies the puny human rule at different points.

Assume Stam=5, Eufiber=5,

Armor = 2 => 7[6] This mimics the puny human rule (lethal damage)

Armor = 5 => 7[15] (soak = 22) this applies the puny human rule a bit higher (15 rather than 11).

None of this sounds unbalanced, and certainly not as disruptive as saying the Hulk only does as much damage on a tank as Captain America.

[Finbar]

Er...color me seriously confused....Okay, yanking out the innards for a sec:

1) Mega-Strength is something our group has treated as straight additional successes (as per the rules), not a damage add. (The section on Mega-Strength lists it as "additional successes", not a damage add, even though it uses the damage adds notation.)

2) The "puny human" rule isn't even on the table here (the amounts of damage are above the 1/2 threshold ("if the defender can soak twice or more of the attack", pg. 240).

But if you are, then it's going to need re-writing, as Armor wouldn't add to soak. A main battle (with 6[12] Armor) has a soak of 6, but you need to score twelve successes on the damage roll in order to damage the tank. The "puny human" wouldn't apply because base punch damage is Str+2; against a soak of 6, the person would need to roll 0 or 1 successes to invoke the "puny human" rule. Thus, the human would always do at least 1d10B (eventually bashing the jet (all damage to an object is marked as lethal (pg 277)).

On the other hand, in Trinity, the same human would need 6 six successes to not invoke the same rule (he needs to get (6+12=18; 18/2=9; 9+1=) 10 successes; an average human has Str 2, doing a base of 4d10 . Thus, I'd be invoking the puny human rule a lot more.

This is why I wanted a clarification on the Abbie damage adds rule (corebook, pg. 277, no errata in the APG).

3) If I were to change the damage rules, I'd probably make the following changes:

a) Damage is treated as per Trinity, with the "puny human" rule;

Against an object (and not a person in armor, unless that armor is actually a vehicle), a person does (Str-2)d10 L (zero damage is possible); and

c) Mega-Strength does additional damage, not damage adds (more of a clarification); and

d) I'd give different objects different health levels (so it's harder to destroy a main battle tank than a motorcycle, even allowing for the armor).

FR

[malkboy]

(looks both ways) Uh.. it doesn't say additional successes.. it says Automatic Successes.. Those would be properly put.. Damage adds... Specifically the book says this about sorting out what is applied when..

(pg 242 in the Combat Summary Chart in the main book)

  Step 1 > Determine total damage effect (weapon type or maneuver), adding any extra dice gained from successes on the attack roll.

  Step 2 > Subtract the target's soak (if applicable), then apply the remaining damage effect.

Now to me this would mean... Say you threw a Mega-Str 5 punch and hit with standard successes... Meaning you would have a damage pool of Str+2 d10 and 25 automatic successes.. (put another way [25] + (Str+2 d10) )

Now if you need more proof that Mega-Str is considered a damage add.. carefully read on pg 241 of the Aberrant core book the section labeled Damage Adds vs. Damage Dice.. There it says..

These automatic successes are known as damage adds and are always presented in brackets.

and is in reference to nova powers...

[Reighnhell]

Armor Adds vs Damage Adds- I have always used the Trinity/Adventure interpretation. In Vehicle Scale vs Vehicle Scale, the adds are ignored, with soak applied as normal. In persoanl scale vs vehicle scale the armor add is treated as both soak and the minimum base damage (not counting successes)for invoking the "Puny Humans" rule. A normal person (Str2+2 for a punch) could hit a Tank (6[12] all day long, and not do a thing. I proposed the idea of making the soak granted by armor a armor add to reflect the fact that a Nova with Armor is well beyond the level where a unarmed baseline could actually hurt them.

Mega Strength- This is sticky, as many groups interpret what exactly the extra succeses granted by Mega-Strength do. Reaching a consensus on how Mega Strength inflicts damge is another topic that needs to be addressed. Personally, I just add both Armor ratings and soak as normal. ( the tank would have a net soak of 18). But even this favors the Mega-Strong nova a bit too much. Idea's on this particular quandry are welcome.

[Bahamut810]

Guys...just dont mind me...for some reason I was thinking that soak was a contested roll and not an automatic subtraction from damage.

*walksaway and sits in the corner*

[malkboy]

How does adding the total damage and subtracting the total soak favor the Mega-Strength people? Even if it does.. when you roll back a bit.. if say Superman, Hulk, or any of the "really" mega str characters that it's gonna hurt you? That's the advantage of being that strong...

As for changing Armor to an armor add.. if you consider how soak is done, Armor is already an armor add! It is automatically dropped from the damage and there's no roll you have to go through to get it... (Or am I missing something)

[Bahamut810]

Well...the only problem I have with M-str vs. soak is that there is no power *comparable* to M-str when it comes to soak. You have to spend more points to defend. thats just me though...and that *dosent* include anything environmental or any other powers mind you (flight, invisablility, intangability, ect).

[malkboy]

I've always felt that the reason behind that is this...

It's better to not be in the way of the bullet than it is to be standing there for it to come. You don't want to be hurt, don't get hit. Then this is my opinon...

[Finbar]

Trying to stir contreversy...

Going to my former points:

Damage is treated as per Trinity, with the "puny human" rule

Everyone does it anyway; let's just make it psuedo-official.

Against an object (and not a person in armor, unless that armor is actually a vehicle), a person does (Str-2)d10 L (zero damage is possible)

This way the "puny human" rule gets invoked a lot more, if nothing else (it should be noted that a person with a normal Strength 3 or less can only injure a motorcycle, a Str 4 can also nail a few more vehicles (with Armor 4 or less), and a Str 5 two more

(Armor 3 or less)).

Mega-Strength does additional damage, not damage adds (more of a clarification)

Also, count as lethal vs. vehicles, bashing against humans. This way, Hulk really can smash jets, tanks or other large vehicles.

BTW: It needs to noted the Mega-Str 5 has the pre-req (as per APG, pg. 62) of both Str 5 AND Quantum 4. Even if you get two points of Quantum due to freebies, that's still going to cost you 7 NP (+1 Q and 2 NP to get to Str 5 (you'll have 2 points extra, but...), for a grand total of 22 NP. I can get a soak of 25 (Armor 4, Mega-Stamina 2 (Resiliency), Eufiber 5, and Stamina 4) for just 20 NP (Min Q 1), meaning that the soak is cheaper than the attack. [The price difference gets worse if you spend XP.]

I'd give different objects different health levels (so it's harder to destroy a main battle tank than a motorcycle, even allowing for the armor).

All I want is a few health levels...5 HL's for motorcycles, 7 HL's for cars, 9 HL's for semi's, 27 for airtcraft carriers... ::rolleyes

[Finbar]

Oh, yeah:

RE: Dodging

Given that Megs-Str adds only apply to damage (as regards combat), a character with any Mega-Dex and decent dodge (before adding in Mega-Dex, say 7+ dice) should be able to dodge for quite a while (just keep dodging ::bigsmile !)

(5 NP, if you were curious ::blush ...)

FR

[malkboy]

Huh?

[Alex Green]

Also, count as lethal vs. vehicles, bashing against humans. This way, Hulk really can smash jets, tanks or other large vehicles.

??? Vehicles don't take bashing or lethal, they just take damage. After taking a certain amount of damage they are disabled (rather than knocked out). I.e. bashing has always been lethal.

[malkboy]

That was my general thought Alex.. but what did I know..

[Finbar]

Sorry...Explanation:

The basic logic was two-fold:

1) To head off a number of arguments. Although I realize that a number of readers of this forum have no problem the leap that vehicular damage is neither lethal or bashing, some people would prefer it defined. This aspect of it was the minor issue, so just treat it as a speed bump.

2) I was also concerned about any left-over damage: If The Hulk throws 5[25]+sux at a main battle tank (6[12]), then 5[7]+sux (12+HL's) get through to the crew. Since it's obviously no longer The Hulk; it's his effect on the crew inside. The question is whether it's buffeting the crew around, or if it should be shards of plane.

Hmmm...Guess it should be dependent on the original source (in this case, bashing).

--------

The obvious question is: How should be aggravated damage be treated when it comes to vehicles?

FR

[malkboy]

Explosively?

[metaphysician]

Old old thread, but. . .

Re: Armor adds- my inclination is as mentioned before, treat it as the minimum threshold to do damage to a vehicle. Against the 6[12] tank, if you do 12 damage sux or less, you plink.

In turn, however, *no* quantum power would provide armor adds, because novas instead use the "puny human" rules. This means that effectively, their "armor add" is *always* half their total soak.

Damage adds, in turn, would be treated as auto damage sux that are soaked first.

Thusly, I would eliminate entirely the whole idea of "disregarding armor/damage adds during vehicle scale combat," as frankly, it strikes me as having been a bad idea from the getgo. A 20mm cannon may be "vehicle scale," but against a halfway decent tank, its going to do the exact same thing as a .20 calibre pistol- *plink*

Re: damage types to vehicle, I don't see any problem with applying the same type to the people inside as the attack. If the Hulk punches a vehicle, everyone inside gets smashed against the walls. If some jerk shoots a railgun at the vehicle and punches a hole through it, anybody near the path gets skewered with shrapnel. And, if someone disintegrates the vehicle ( against which even a tank gets no soak ), anybody inside it probably got disintegrated too.

[Alex Green]

Works pretty well...