How far is to FAR

[needle]

::ninja Like the ninja Eric silently enters the fray. Ya, its been a while since I posted. The answer is no I haven't been playing the Aeon games for awhile. How ever I noticed a "new" trend. Its Wizards of the Toast releasing the Book of Vile Darkness, the weirdness that started with Vampire has spilled back over into our lives. Why does this post even appear beside the fact that to much Jolt soda creates 12:43 mental diseases. Well with WW releasing the whole Demon the Fallen thing I was wondering were you guys draw the line as far as the content thing? When is to much to much? Just incase anyone cares the Book of Vile Darkness contains updated rules on the Demons & Archdevils, a car load of evil classes, more strange magic items, advice on running an evil campain, & yes the thing lives up to the you can't sell this product to anyone under the age of 18. My second question are we going to see a number of new products cashing in on the new EVILNESS of role playing? ::dry

Do we really care as long as no one does anything stuipid in the name of a game? There is my question to you? I mean the Church of the Arch Angel Michael handled some tough issues in the world of Abby but it had style & some substance.

[Dr. Arbitrary]

Uh. I hate to admit it but the reason I got into White Wolf was because my friends and I were intrigued by the news reports a few years back about how Vampire was making people kill each other. From vampire I progressed to abberant.

It's sad but evilness is profitable and companies are doing what companies do, make profit. Hopefully content will make a comeback someday.

Dr. Arbitrary

[Senior Mal]

Its not about good and evil!

(I love starting these things with a dramatic statement)

For me the games released by White Wolf (and many other games companies) are not 'cashing in' on the new trend to release 'evil' products. In many ways White Wolf was responsible for starting the trend. Vampire: The Masquerade's premise from the word go was to allow players to experience a darker side of themselves (a side that in all honesty all humanity has) in a, supposedly, safe environment (that of a game).

We live in a society where the anti-hero is now the norm not the exception, unfortunately, it appeals more to be 'evil' than  it does to be the 'boring' good guys. "Evil has more fun" and all that.

In truth its easy to be evil, to play a fascinating, intelligent 'good' character takes an awful lot more effort than it did way back when all you had to do was pick the Paladin class and stick to the laws of the land. Lets be honest for those of you who play Vampire how many actually worry about those humanity points? Whose more concerned with disciplines and blood pool in order to smite their enemies... whoever they may be? and thats why more and more products come out based on the subject, its true what Dr Arbiitrary says, the demand is there. However, I think the content is also there, it'd just be nice to see some good guy material that has a modicum of content to it also

Mal ::devilangel (in a surprisingly serious state of mind)

[knave]

Ok - there are 2 issues here - 1) The Good/Bad name of role playing 2) Some sort of Moral objection to playing 'EEVIL - Frooit of the De-viiil' Characters

These issues may appear to be linked - but they really aren't.  It is just as easy to play or run an evil d&d or starwars game / character /what ever as it to run a baali, demon or whatever.  worse even - because you're coming up with all the deliciousssss evilllness yourself (read good omens by Neil Gaiman if you haven't btw).  Most role players that I know - being mature individuals (believe it or not) - don't tend to get a kick out of senseless violence or 'true evil'... which is basically just mean.  i really wouldn't enjoy a game where the pcs ran around torturing people for no reason other than 'they're an evil demon'.  The Reason is what makes a game interesting.

As for the Good (Bad!)  name of role playing - yes - Demon the Fallen could get some bad press from bible bashers who will want schools to ban roleplaying books and will appeal to teachers and parents to confiscate the stuff from young gamers...

but really - should role players be intimidated and forced to buckle by book burning Nazis?  Everyone should be free to do as they wish - so long as they don't harm anyone or show true thoughtlessness in their actions.  Just as with every other freedom - so should it be with this.

How far is too far you ask.  Its the point at which you cannot sustain a line of books because no-one wants to buy them.  At that point the public has spoken.

-knave

[needle]

Admit it evil is fun! Its nice to have a game that shocks the parents. But do these "evil" products have the guts of substance to back up the hype? Aeon has a certain standard that India Underground will hit but are these companies slipping faster than a monkey on a roller skate when it comes to nailing the mark. The last product that I got from WW that even came close was Victorian Age Vampire. It hardly made a ripple in the continum for other players. However I've been using a certain League of Gentlemen to introduce some vampire players to the world of merry old England. Guess whose the villians. But the poor vampires are so misunderstood. ::wacko  Its fun to be evil as long as its done with sytle ::smokin. Now on the subject of evil how many of you have used Trinity & Abby to have the players play the evil doers hands? My question still stands how far do you let your players go? ::devilangel

[Dr. Arbitrary]

I think the issue that I have is not an ethical or moral one (is it ok for WW to produce these books) because I believe that they have an ethical right to produce anything provided it is not libelous, fraudulent, or the property of someone else.

The issue is an aesthetic one, does what they are producing have any value. An anology is "modern art vs art," Even though it is ethically acceptable for an artist to poop into a metal can (I'm not making this up) and sell it as art, people are not required to like it or support it.

I am saying that just because EEVIL is profitable, we don't have to accept it as being good. LONG LIVE PLOT, LONG LIVE CONTENT.

Dr. Arbitrary

[knave]

Art is a difficult one to compare anything with - because idea behind art does not necessarily require you to like it.  As long as it provokes a reaction - some thought or emotion - art can be said to be successful.  So - yes - poop in a can could be successful, but I wouldn't pay to see it.  This is why there are many many struggling artists who refuse to let go of their 'quest'... or are just bad.

Aesthetics on the other hand - Of or concerning the appreciation of beauty or good taste - is a little different.  Some people prefer First Person Shooters, some prefer Strategy.  Who is right?  Does it matter if everyone is having fun?  

In 2002 - do we really need someone to come along and set the bar?

-knave

[Dr. Arbitrary]

Well, you and I seem to have differing opinions on the purpose of art. Art in my opinion is the representation of ones fundamental view of existence. As an example, compare art from the dark ages to renaissance art.

The first is characterised by flatness and emphasis on holiness (almost everyone gets a halo) reflecting a world where people see God as the point of life. They can be described mostly as "pictures of a bunch of pale figures with halos all looking at a baby with the face of a 40 year old"

Renaissance art has dimention (spatial) and lighting, it reflected the changing attitudes of the world with emphasis falling on man rather than God.

I found one website that I thought gave a good representation of renaissance art.

Renaissance Art site

Following this interpretation of art, my concern is that if the trend in fiction is heading towards EEVIL IS KEWL, what does that say about our society and values.

Dr. Arbitrary

[knave]

Following this interpretation of art, my concern is that if the trend in fiction is heading towards EEVIL IS KEWL, what does that say about our society and values.

It says that there are a lot of people who like Eevil role playing games.  A lot of them are probably still growing up.  So what?  At best we can shake our fist and cry bootlessly at deaf heavens.  What will be will be.

As for art - there is no reason why any particular work of any kind should capture the zeidgeist of the time - only looking at all of the work of a period can we see what is going on... and if what is going on is a 'dark fiction' thing... cool... read batman.  if it's lighter - read superman...

-knave

[Dr. Arbitrary]

As for art - there is no reason why any particular work of any kind should capture the zeidgeist of the time - only looking at all of the work of a period can we see what is going on

My view is that since art represents an artists fundamental view of the world, and that in general, peoples fundamental views are determined by the zeitgeist (Thats a great word, I hope I'm using it correctly), art generally represents the views of the people of the time.

I hope I am staying intelligible on this topic, its just that I have a lot of anger over the cultural state of my country. If Brittney Spears and Blink 182 are the dominant music and our best artists are poop in cans, what does this say about the way people see the world. The worst part is most children's role models are movie stars and sports stars (well the trend has shifted to firefighters which I guess is better).

sorry I'm ranting. I just have a vision of a better future where sports inclined children want to be in the olympics, not the NBA. (sniff, I'm getting all emotional and stuff)

Dr. Arbitrary

[knave]

My view is that since art represents an artists fundamental view of the world, and that in general, peoples fundamental views are determined by the zeitgeist (Thats a great

lol - well - you're spelling it better than i was.    but I think you've got it backwards - the zeitgeist is the spirit of the age...  you can't impose a spirit on an age; or whine about the juvenile idea of 'cool' and expect to make it better - it is what it is - and us old fogies aren't going to change it.  If you want to make the world better - then do what you can - LEAD!  Make good games!

-knave

[Dr. Arbitrary]

the zeitgeist is the spirit of the age...  you can't impose a spirit on an age;

Speak for yourself. Maybe YOU cant impose a spirit on an age but that doesn't mean I can't. I impose spirits upon ages all the time, Its just really hard. Sheesh, you should try it sometime, once you get the hang of it you'll be imposing spirits on ages without even trying.

Seriously though, I think you've cut through all my rambling and found my point. I can change the spirit of the age, I am doing it through discussion and interaction with other people. If I do it long enough I can change their fundamental views. If I change enough people's fundamental views I can change the spirit of the age.

Dr. Arbitrary

[knave]

Dear Dear Doctor.  

If that is what you're trying to do - then you're largely preaching to the choir on this forum.

-knave

[Dr. Arbitrary]

I never said I wasn't.  

Dr. Arbitrary

[knave]

Heh...also - the kind of liberal thinking mature individuals that you are appealing to are exactly the kind of people who just don't get het up with a cause and wander off crusading... in my opinion anyway ;P

-knave

[Dr. Arbitrary]

Hmm... Crusading...

KILL THE UNBELIEVERS. ALL WHO DISAGREE WITH ME WILL TASTE MY BLADE.

seriously though, the best way to promote one's cause is through application of reason in debate and discussion. I just have some well defined beliefs and I like to share them with the world.

I will admit I lack maturity in some senses though. I appreciate your comments and enjoy the opportunity for discussion. I would hate to turn people off to my views by being too adamant about them.

Dr. Arbitrary

[knave]

I disagree about the best way to change peoples' views.  Were everyone reasonable then you'd be right.  However... that is far from the case.  There are some people no amount of argument can reach... a lot of people.

I believe that if you want to encourage those people to go for games with plot over games with 'Kewl evil' then you should attempt to prove that games with plot are more rewarding.

Sadly this is much like a Mom going 'Mmmmm, yummy' to try to encourage her baby to eat mashed veggies.  On the other hand what you are doing right now is like a parent saying to a teenager 'What kind of music are you listening to?  That just sounds like Noise!  In my day we had classics like Ozzy Ozbourne and the Sex Pistols, the JAM and the Clash... not nonsense like this Blink 182 and Sum 41 rubbish'

-knave

[Dr. Arbitrary]

Yeah, I know. I just find it weird that I'm 18 and I can't stand the stuff. Music that is, not mashed veggies.

Were everyone reasonable then you'd be right.  However... that is far from the case.  There are some people no amount of argument can reach... a lot of people.

Regarding that, I suppose it is true, but hopefully by using reason I will reach a few reasonable people. As for the rest, I really don't know what one can do to influence a non-reasonable person.

Dr. Arbitrary

[knave]

As I said... LEAD

::baaa

[knave]

and the point with the music is that EVERY generation's music isn't much liked by the majority of those that have gone before - nor is it liked by the whole of the current generation...

anyway... i think we've meandered off topic quite a bit

[Joseph]

anyway... i think we've meandered off topic quite a bit

Shhhh! Don't mention the "T" word. Chill might make us behave and stick to them again.  ::nervous

     ::halo

-Joseph

[CHILL]

Topic?

Since when have we taken any notice of those things?  ::sly  

[chloe]

I thought this thread was about how far gamers go... Ya know, like graphic sex descriptions in VTM and the like... Yes I'm disappointed and yes this proves a point about todays youth!  

I love you guys!

Chloe.

[needle]

Topic has anyone seen a topic. My Question stands how far is to far. Do you control the content in the game if some of your players are under the age of 16? Have any of you heard complains from some body's mom because of something that has appeared in your game.

 Of course burning down the old school house is fun! Have any of you played in an evil campain? Did it work out, fall apart, was it really evil? Commie biker Nuns from Mars are coming   ::lookaround  How do you create the atmosphere for the characters to go after the villian in your stories. Are there bad guys anymore or is everyone in a grey hat? ::smokin

[Dr. Arbitrary]

I played in an evil campaign with my friends once. It used VtM rules. One of my more sociopathic friends was ST.

The story was basically, Three vampires go around for no real reason killing random villiages and stuff.

The characters were as follows:

Friend #1- a Tzimise (sp?) shapeshifter that had a pirate ship and whose hobbies were killing people and torture.

Friend #2 - a Assamite whose hobbies were assassinating people and putting poison on his weapons

ME - a Malkavian who had a mental block when it came to combat and had to make willpower roll in order to stay in non defensive combat for a prolonged period of time.

My character really didn't fit into combat well. Funny though, If it had been a casino instead of a role playing game I would be rich, It seemed like every roll I made was a 10.

When It came around to be my turn to ST, I made it my perrogative to give a good story and compelling reasons for the characters to stick together.

They all made combat characters though. Imagine their suprise when their first mission was to get a lady from a formal dance that was going to be attacked later that night.

None of them had a single point in ettiquite   .  They eventually had to bribe the doorman and knock the lady unconsious when she went to the ladies room. THEN, because only one of them had a stealth roll, they had to sneak her out a window using tied together bed sheets.

I gave them opportunities to engage in combat, but I used realistic damage and consequences to make it undesirable.

They liked the story, and the next story told by one of my friends had a slightly more thoughtful tone.

I suppose maturity comes with age, but show them what a mature story is like. Give them something better than violence and evil, give them plot.

Dr. Arbitrary

[VictorHFrost KSC]

i recently finished a game in which over half the primary characters were of questionable moral inclination. we had a die hard sociapath, a lunatic with a judge complex, a telepath with no qualms about doing such things as rearranging peopl's (even other pcs) personalities and memories in their sleep, a gambler out for solely her own profit and safety who was ready to ditch the party at any sign of trouble (and did several times) and a host of other such characters.

honestly, i think too far depends on vantage point, in my game we focused not so much on how evil the characters could be (though we did that a little) but more on how far off the deep end they had gone and what it would take to bring them back. most of the stories had elements of moral conflict in them and most of it was intentional on the part of either me or the players. as long as the evil is presented accurately its not too far. the key is to realize that while bad people aren't always punished, they don't all go free either. the sociopath ended up having qualms with the erratic behavior of his lunatic friend and found god to save his soul. the telepath was eventually mindwarped herself so many times she could no longer even tell anyone her most fond childhood memories. the gambler ditched the party one too many times and the lunatic offed her to preserve his skin and the lunatic himself went on to be fabulously successful only to lose it all because of his abbrasive and unilateral tactics.

consequences are what most evil games lack. contrary to a lot of popular belief, there are just as many if not more good natured moral people in the world as evil. those good people should be represented in games even if they aren't the players (just as evil should be portrayed if the players were all good). as for content, i don't avoid violence as much as say sex, but thats preferential. i'm open to portraying both these things, but niether is ever the begining or end of the game itself. the characters and their decisions relating to those aspects are always more important.

jake

[knave]

I operate with the idea that Aeon / Order teams are given psych evaluations every so often - especially if they've done some questionable things recently.  Fail - and whammo - they're in for some councilling at a minimum.  One of my characters got forcibly given a new personality for deliberately blowing up the children of his target - and killing another PC who tried to stop him.  I took perverse pleasure in describing his screams juxtaposed with the 21 gun salute as the dead space marine's coffin was fired into the sun.

As for younger players... it doesn't change things that much.  I generally just cutscene away from the really sick stuff once everyone's imagination is filling in the blanks - which is often worse I guess.  ::smokin

-knave

[Lazarus]

Hello everyone,

                      playing evil, reading about evil is a good thing in a way....because in a society like today..people need an mental exit...to feel alive....like people a challenge death practicing sport extreme....or any challenging activities that can create a hot sensation...geeling....David LE Breton in PAssion for taking risk exlain that any activities that reflect evasion and that interrogate death are the reflexion of a search for a meaning of life....I can't explain very well in english....But i just try to say that liking evil in litterature or in movies..etc...are only a king of evasion...Is it really a reflexion of the king of society that we became....? Is people becoming "evil" because there is no censured version of games or litterature...? Or is the civilisation is just lost in the moral horizon and need something to be in the track again...the morality track....Not necessaly the judoe-christian morality...just the one that said : The human being in fondamentaly good.....As musch as the people knows that A RPG is A RPG....and not the reality...why not escape ourself in the Edgar A. Poe king of game....There is a lot of psychological search that can be explain here...but I don't want to fall in a debate that can take a VERY LONG TIME....

LAzarus ::smokin

[Dr. Arbitrary]

Lazarus, I suppose you have a point as far as using games as a way to express our evil impulses in a constructive manner. The question is: Does role playing in a manner inconsistent with ones normal behavior influence future behavior?

I have read that role playing has been used by psychologists in order to help someone conform to a certain code of behavior.

Dr. Arbitrary

[chloe]

Have any of you heard complains from some body's mom because of something that has appeared in your game.

Nope but we had worried looks off someones girl friend when he was 'forced' to cross-breed with some frog-people to save the other PC's... That's taking one for the team!  

Chloe.