Aberrant RPG - Euphiber Attunement

[White Light]

Euphiber Attunement has recently come into discussion, and its looking to create some problems with the interpritation of the text associated with it.

Euphiber Attunement says "You are especially in-tune with euphiber materials. They adapt easily and well to your quantum signature. Each point in this Merit allows you to store an additional quantum point in a euphiber colony attuned to you. You may subtract your rating in this merit from the difficulty of Weave rolls, and you also get an extra die per point in this merit for style rolls involving euphiber clothing. You must have at least one dot in the Euphiber Background to take this merit."

Does this mean more soak?

I discussed this a few others, and largely people are saying that it does not, because Euphiber Attunement does not actually say it does. Also, that would be kind of a ridiculously easy way to get soak. Like, much, much, way to fucking ridiculously easy.

[Dave ST]

I'm including the excerpt from the core book to save someone from having to quote it later.

The Eufiber background says "this innate defense provides the nova with an amount of extra soak (versus bashing and lethal damage) equal to the number of quantum points currently stored in the colony."

It also states the maximum capacity is based on the number of dots. (1 - 5).

Based on what the merit states for three bonus points you can gain:

-3 Difficulty to Weaving Rolls.

+3 Extra Quantum Points.

+3 Extra Style Dice.

and...

+3 Extra Lethal and Bashing Soak.

That's a bit much for only three bonus points, if it were just the bonus quantum points and the soak... sure. But not all that in one bundle. In this case I would say that since the merit does not specifically state that the bonus capacity assists in calculating the eufiber’s total protection, then no.

The merit should not provide extra soak.

[Ravenshire]

Dave's quote is exactly why it does provide extra soak. The amount of stored quantum is the amount of extra soak provided by the suit.

As for being cheap; the eufiber background is a cheap form of soak in and of itself. You can add 5 soak for the equivalent of 1 Nova Point. This merit is just another way of adding to that protection for a cost that is inline with what eufiber costs.

[Courier]

Bonus points are either really expensive or really cheap depending on what calc you want to use.

As for what it does, technically it doesn't increase soak, it only increases your max q storage, which is what Eufiber uses to calc how much soak it gives. It's one of the better buys, but those +3 bonus points for E.A. could buy half a point of quantum, and that's normally considered the better deal.

[Dave ST]

So far, two for 'no', one for 'yes'. Anyone else want to offer their two cents?

[Catalyst]

No, before my post there are two with yes. Reread Courier's post.

And Yes. As noted above the amount quantum in your suit is the amount of soak in your suit. IE if you take away say four quantum from a rating five suit you would only have a soak of one. The rating is only the limit to the amount of quantum you can store in your suit. Euphiber Attunement let's you store more in it. Is there really any debate?

[Courier]

Sorry if I was confusing. IMHO by increasing the q-storage you also increase the soak.

But while it is strong and it does come up a fair bit, the majority of characters don't do it because there are lots of other strong options for bonus points. IMHO the most common option is to increase Q, followed by increasing background points, followed by increasing willpower, followed by q-attune, followed by increasing init.

It's very useful but not really in the "must have" catagory for most characters.

[jameson (ST)]

Agreed, it allows eufiber to store more Q and thus the eufiber provides more soak as soak is determined by the amount of Q stored

[Dave ST]

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Sorry if I was confusing. IMHO by increasing the q-storage you also increase the soak.

I should apologize; I was the one who misread it. My bad.

So it's 3 to 1! Ack! You're all after my Lucky Charms!

Quote:

The rating is only the limit to the amount of quantum you can store in your suit. Euphiber Attunement let's you store more in it.

You have made an excellent point Catalyst, I was just about to get to that.

Okay, so by and large everyone agrees that Eufiber Capacity = Soak. I agree too. The problem is that Rating = Catapcity = Soak. By increasing the eufiber’s capacity you are increasing the effective rating of the Eufiber.

In Aberrant no ability, attribute, background, or quantum power may exceed 5 unless the characters quantum score exceeds 6. This includes effective ratings (like Boost granting someone an effective M-Dex of 5 for a limited duration). Merits do not permit you to break this rule.

The background's entry specifically links the factors together (rating equals capacity), thus if you have Eufiber 5 and Eufiber Attunement 3 your effective Background rating is 8.

That's why I'd be all for it granting either one or the other but not both (since then it would break the comparison in the backgrounds explanation).

The background and the merit clash, which is why I say no. Since your quantum pool can be practically limitless, I see no reason why someone cannot benefit form the extra points. However the effective limit on the soak should not exceed the Nova's Eufiber background. In turn, that background should not exceed 5 until the character's quantum score is 6 or higher.

[Ravenshire]

The merit does not inherently push the eufiber background over five though. Yes, it can have that effect, but its not guarunteed, nor is such a limitation mentioned in the merit's description. As I see it, it still boild down the the description given for the eufiber background and that is that quantum stored in the suit equals soak.

[Autumn Solstice]

But in that same background that you're referring to it specifically shows that Rating = Capacity. If your Capacity is 50. Your effective rating is 50. I see nothing in the merit or the background to dispute either of our arguments.

Like I said, once again two things clash with no definitive way to resolve it.

[Jesse Custer]

Originally Posted By: Autumn Solstice

But in that same background that you're referring to it specifically shows that Rating = Capacity. If your Capacity is 50. Your effective rating is 50. I see nothing in the merit or the background to dispute either of our arguments.

Like I said, once again two things clash with no definitive way to resolve it.

Rating gives you your maximum capacity. But your maximum capacity is not equal to your rating.

[Catalyst]

thus if you have Eufiber 5 and Eufiber Attunement 3 your effective Background rating is 8.

Effective, and is are not the same thing. Effectively the same is not the same as the same. Effectively You can have armor rating of 15 to physical with 5 dots in a level three power. Effectively when Catalyst uses her power to turn into say steel she gains level in armor, but she does not have any points in the power, so theoreticly she could have five dots in the armor power and then effectively gain more dots of it.

[Dave ST]

"a nova may transfer quantum points up to the Eufiber rating." the merit permits the storage of more quantum which directly increasing the rating of the Eufiber as a result. Believe me I understand what you are guys are saying, but the two texts contradictory. Whats in black and white in the books states 'no'. At least in my opinion. I'm sure it was something that was overlooked when they made the merit or worded the background, but still they linked the two numbers (capacity and rating) and there is no way to seperate the two.

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Effectively the same is not the same as the same.

Well, I feel enlightened.

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Effectively when Catalyst uses her power to turn into say steel she gains level in armor, but she does not have any points in the power, so theoreticly she could have five dots in the armor power and then effectively gain more dots of it.

No, she couldn't. Once she reaches five dots in a power she could not gain any more dots until he rquantum score reaches six.

You cannot have 'Armor 5', 'Armor 5', 'Armor 5'. "Each power must be seperate and distinct" like it says in the core book. Just because you become steel doesn't mean you can double dip powers.

If Catalyst has Armor 2 (tough skin) and becomes steel, gaining Armor 5 (dense steel), then she is considered to have an Armor rating of 5 not 7. The higher rating takes precedence in this case granting her an effective armor rating of 5 not 2.

Quantum pool and soak do have limits and thus are not appropriate arguements. Abilities, Backgrounds, Attributes and Quantum Powers may not exceed 5. Since your quantum capacity is directly linked to your rating, it may not exceed 5.

I have to run, work and all that.

[Courier]

Several Backgrounds already let us go over the "5" limit. Concentration gives you an extra die for Meditation rolls. Sexy, Natural Leader, Acute Sense, work similarly. Are we going to limit them to 5 as well?

There is also a case to be made that the A! background enhancements (In Charge, etc) should be available since we have several cannon NPCs who have backgrounds higher than 5 without Q6+.

Ironskin (I think) has contacts 6. The DeVries "cost of gear" guide has listings higher than 5. I think Anna has resources higher than 5 as well.

Totentanz has backing 5 (and deserves it). So what should Anna's be?

[Dave ST]

I'm not saying I agree with canon. Were Catalyst to place his character sheet on my gaming table with Eufiber 4 and Eufiber Attunement 3 (for a total Eufiber rating of 7) I'd certainly allow it.

However, in response to Lina's question I only answer with what is in black and white in both the Players Guide and the Core Book (no filling in blanks, or assumptions, strictly with what is written). What is written is canon. The conflict she was having was a 2009 issue, and 2009 is canon only. I'm not the ST for that, and only the Directors can approve something that goes against what is in black in white.

That's why my answer still is, 'no'.

A! is not Aberrant, what happens in that game is not canon for Aberrant, if it were then the backgrounds and all the other stuff (not just NPCs) would have carried over. It didn't.

Canon NPCs break the rules consistently because WW is for lack of a better term, the STs for them, they can do what they like. In my TT games I've permitted backgrounds and certain ratings to exceed 5, but does that make them canon now?

Certainly not.

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Several Backgrounds already let us go over the "5" limit. Concentration gives you an extra die for Meditation rolls. Sexy, Natural Leader, Acute Sense, work similarly. Are we going to limit them to 5 as well?

I agree, but they also have specific statements in the rules governing where those additional dice come from. As a rule for WW merits (meaning the ST system, which Aberrant belongs to)if that merit permits you to break the 'rule of 5' it will specifically say so. I've thumbed through a few of my WW books to research this and they all stated something to the effect that "this merit allows <such and such> to exceed 5".

Now if we extrapolate on that point. Then it would be correct to say that since Eufiber Attunment does not state that it permits the capacity to exceed 5, then it cannot augment the background beyond 5, since the background makes it a point to have direct correlation between the rating of the background equaling the capacity, and vice versa.

I know, it's stupid... but I didn't write it. As I said, I could care less, whether it's 1 or 8 or 15 makes no difference to me.

[jameson (ST)]

FACT: A piece of eufiber has a rating of 1-5 dots.

FACT: The rating represents what a nova can store for quantum within their eufiber.

FACT: The Soak of eudfiber is equal to the amount of quantum stored.

I think we all agree on that.

Speculation: Eufiber Attunment changes the rating of a piece of eufiber.

I disagree here. Eufiber Attunment does not change the eufiber itself (and thus not it's rating). Instead it allows the user to be more effecient with what he has, allowing him to store a quantity of Quantum above and beyond the Eufiber rating ...

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Each point in this Merit allows you to store an additional quantum point in a eufiber colony attuned to you.

... suffice to say I don't think we should be looking at this as changing the rating of the eufiber. It's additional capability, yes, but it is not fundamentally changing the eufiber.

If "the Unbound" had Eufiber Attunment 2 and stole the 3 point eufiber off the body of his latest victim, "Solar Wind", the eufiber would not suddenly gain a 2 point and become 5 point eufiber. It would function like 5 point eufiber for "the Unbound" but if he was killed by the heroic "Coppertop" it would only be a 3 point colony for him.

Since we aren't changing or adding to the rating of the eufiber I don't think your arguments fly Dave. Just my 2 cents

[Dave ST]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Raphael Bradford

FACT: A piece of eufiber has a rating of 1-5 dots.

Incorrect. As a background it has a rating of 1-10.

[Courier]

RE: 10

I had not thought of it that way, but you're probably correct.

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As a rule for WW merits (meaning the ST system, which Aberrant belongs to)if that merit permits you to break the 'rule of 5' it will specifically say so.

Except in abby, where they don't. Further, Abby already breaks the rule of 5 pretty throughly with Mega-stats.

Acute Sense states that it works with Mega-Perception... which further implies that the limit for stats isn't 5 in abby, it's 5 plus Megas 5 (or Q whichever is greater), plus merits.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted By: Dave OOC

If Catalyst has Armor 2 (tough skin) and becomes steel, gaining Armor 5 (dense steel), then she is considered to have an Armor rating of 5 not 7. The higher rating takes precedence in this case granting her an effective armor rating of 5 not 2.

Quantum pool and soak do have limits and thus are not appropriate arguements. Abilities, Backgrounds, Attributes and Quantum Powers may not exceed 5. Since your quantum capacity is directly linked to your rating, it may not exceed 5.

Now I'm confused...are you saying you can't have mulitple powers that have the same effect? I can see logically where exchanging your physical properties for metal implies giving up your own inate properties (ie your skin doesn't become harder than the steel you mimic)...but you don't mean she couldn't also have force field 2, right? What if the special effect of her armor 2 is a persistant limited personal force field? (I believe that was one of the examples of armor special effects.)

But now that I think about it...couldn't a armored nova wear a flak jacket too (and be laughted at per the manual)? Can't a nova make a gadget that stores Q and offers protection to whomever uses it? Just because they couldn't achieve the same effect "naturally" doesn't mean they can't still gain it effectively, surely? (I might not have MStr 1, but I can tip over a car if I use a long enough lever or a pulley.) Seems to me that this use of bonus points only allows you to more effectively use tools, something outside of your own body/personal power.

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Tinker

...but you don't mean she couldn't also have force field 2, right?

Forcefield is one power, Armor is a second (even if the armor looks like a force Field) and thus can stack normally. You cannot however have Armor (Force Field) 5, Armor (Force Field) 5, Armor (Force Field) 5, Armor (Force Field) 5, and Armor (Force Field) 5, and collect a soak from each of them.

All powers must be seperate and distinct.

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But now that I think about it...couldn't a armored nova wear a flak jacket too (and be laughted at per the manual)? Can't a nova make a gadget that stores Q and offers protection to whomever uses it?

You can. I've used Matter Creation in our TT games to create a permanent substance that functioned like Eufiber, stored a fuck-ton of quanutm points, and provided +10L/+10B protection and all it cost was a 3QPs, a Permanent Willpower, and 6 successes on a Matter Creation roll.

[Tinker]

Originally Posted By: Revenant

Originally Posted By: Tinker

...but you don't mean she couldn't also have force field 2, right?

Forcefield is one power, Armor is a second (even if the armor looks like a force Field) and thus can stack normally. You cannot however have Armor (Force Field) 5, Armor (Force Field) 5, Armor (Force Field) 5, Armor (Force Field) 5, and Armor (Force Field) 5, and collect a soak from each of them.
All powers must be seperate and distinct.

If a dude wants to spend 75pts (at character creation) + extra Quantum level for 2 minimum + background node 2 for the 10q he's churning out a turn just so he can have 10 + 2(5(stamina + 5)) dice soak then I say let him. I'd assume he couldn't con the ST into providing more than 2.5x the starting points in a normal game, and that he used his remaining available bonus points to maximize his awesome defensive capabilities by increasing his stamina to 5, you have a character that can soak 110 levels of damage. Excellent! Of course one good zap from an aggravated power will fry-daddy him; A Scanner-type could mentally b-slap him without breaking a sweat; Every body else in the world, including that troup of beefy girl-scouts, would have to wait an entire 2.4 turns before they could whup up on bubble-boy after his quantum pool runs dry. Not that they have to worry about him having any offensive capabilities while he stands there (sorta) invulnerably.

Oops! My bad...that's assuming multiple force-field. If you go the "Turtle Grande" route it'd be 75pts for 75pts of constant soak. But you'd still get nailed by the mentalist, the inventive or odd attack (armor does affect gas does it?), or aggro damage. Of course, if the ST gives you 75pts to start off with, you'd still be better off using a few of them on something more offensively effective than staring at your enemies sternly from inside your shell. Like I said...it's your game; If you enjoy setting yourself up by challenging the guy that controls the freakin game world, don't be surprised if he give you all the rope you want.

Originally Posted By: Revenant

You can. I've used Matter Creation in our TT games to create a permanent substance that functioned like Eufiber, stored a fuck-ton of quanutm points, and provided +10L/+10B protection and all it cost was a 3QPs, a Permanent Willpower, and 6 successes on a Matter Creation roll.

That's my point... you are able to use an external tool to augment your inherent powers. How does spending the points on your abilities to control over a tool differ from spending points creating superior tools? It'll always be a matter of agreeing on the rules, but the rules are only there to suggest how the universe might work. I don't care if you CAN'T have more than resource 5... if the group decides to take over Switzerland and has the sheer power to do so, you can't convince me they couldn't walk out of the Bank of Swiss Miss with as many greenbacks as they want to splurge on Ebay! My $.02