Let Me Clear The Air

[Tempest]

You know what Signy, I call bullshit on your whole temple deal. Not because it couldn't plausibly happen; quite frankly Novas are rich enough and eccentric enough to do something so wierd, but because you never bothered to make any of this "inclusive."

I've said this before and I guess I need to say it again. If your going to create something big, think about the ramifications first. What in the game world is this going to impact on? Who on the boards is this going to affect? Regardless of the answers to that, if you end up going through with whatever big thing you plan on doing, ease into it. Tell a story or two that lets the reader understand your intent and get used to the idea. Give us some stories about what the character had to do to achieve this big goal.

What you did with the temples basically is just plop them down and say "Here they are! Aren't the cool?" We got nothing to let the reader understand why Alice had done this or even how. If feels like you didn't even bother to consider the logistics of the whole thing and have been backpeddling ever since the first criticism of them. In short, you've done nothing to help me suspend my disbelief regarding the whole matter.

If you want something like this to be taken seriously then it is up to you to portray it in a plausible manner. it's not our obligation to take anything you post here at face value. That goes for everyone here mind you, not just you.

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: Good Alice

That was a sarcastic remark, aimed the fact he said she mined only in Mexico.

Which still makes no sense to me. What did you get from the Gobi, since I only found reference to speculative gold and copper mines, not actual mines?

Also, where are your temples? Please give us a rough location - something more substantive than northern Mexico. And you can't blame Reven for getting the facts wrong when you have given us almost no facts. Requests for information have been ignored.

And despite seeming off the topic, GA is unintentionally providing the perfect example of the lack of communication and respect that plagues us here. When people call bullshit - and not just Reven calling it, but everyone - and the person in question ignores the very rational remarks being made, people get pissed. This is what I mean when I say we need to listen to each other.

But GA, really - where are your temples?

[Jager]

I'll make an offer here:

Let me write up these temples: were they are, what they contain, and who they are affliliated with. I'll probably pester Dawn for some help, but I'll do the post on them.

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: Jager

I'll make an offer here:
Let me write up these temples: were they are, what they contain, and who they are affliliated with. I'll probably pester Dawn for some help, but I'll do the post on them.

Sounds good, and you know me, I'm always ready to help. Do you have the information, Jager?

[Jager]

Thanks Dawn, I appreciate it. I've PMed the request and hope to be working with you soon.

[Good Alice]

And I get no say in this?

[Psyche]

Originally Posted By: Jager

I've PMed the request.

I'd say you do.

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: Good Alice

And I get no say in this?

I'm a little hurt. When have I or Jager ever screwed with you? Of course this won't happen if you don't want it to; I'd assumed that Jager already had your permission.

So, would you like our help?

[Good Alice]

It is not the like or dislike of you two..It is I like being asked. I wouldn't want you to do something and find out that I would have liked more imput then but having to start a fuss later.

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Good Alice

And I get no say in this?

I'd say no. No you do not.

You have been asked several times to provide us with this information and so far you have refused, or ignored every attempt to educate us.

You had your chance.

I don't think Good Alice should own the land either. Such a large purchace for something like this should have been cleared with all of us before you went ahead and pulled a stunt like that.

Had this little idea been handled better I'm sur eI would have said "Hell, I don't care, doesn't effect me any." As I usually do. But this whole temple thing has been a cluster fuck from the start. I'm not saying this is 100% your fault Good Alice, but it was your idea and it was handled very poorly.

Take that however you like.

[Good Alice]

And if I was reasonable I would say yes, and if I wasn't reasonable I would make it into a bigger problem...

[Psyche]

So you are and you aren't reasonable? Can we make up our mind please? This enigmatic crap you continually try to pull off just makes you sound silly.

[Good Alice]

I am saying I wanted to be asked.

[Psyche]

Then just say that. People will respect you more if you say what you mean.

[Robert J. Lambert]

But you were asked, continiously.

Maybe people didn't word it correctly, or you felt it was an attack. But on the OoC threads for this subject, you were asked a lot where they were, where the materials came from, how she got the land, and how did the building was made, among a myriad of other things.

Part of those has already been answered, but a big part hasen't been answered.

For exameple:

-To what gods are the temples dedicated?

-Is Good Alice paying the people who attend the temples, or do they live off from donations?

-Where in the Chihuahuan desert are they located? Remember now that huge pieces of desert are owned by private corporations and families since the 19th century.

-Does Good Alice does the upkeep, or pays someone else to do it on the temples?

-Will the Nova statues be on the temples? Her house? an Exhibition hall? If any of those last two are true, where are this places located?

-How did Good Alice got permission to gather minerals in many parts of the world and to import them to Mexico to create the temples? The red tape it would involve is mind boggling.

at least those are the question I have...

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Good Alice

I am saying I wanted to be asked.

You were asked. Several times. You lost your chance when we got sick of asking.

That's my opinion.

And Dawn and Jager... why are you making them? Seriously, all this tells me is that if Good Alice, Catalyst, or Signy, or whichever character 'Dreamer' plays is stupid long enough then we're going to hold his hand and do the leg work for him. Had he came out in the begining and said something like "Hey, this is my idea, can you guys/gals help me get this going?" Then I know this whole thing would be avoided.

And when one of us does it, it makes the idea seem valid and accepted and it makes it look like Dreamer's idiotic ideas and lack of forethought are now backed by other players even if those players may or may not agree entirely with the concept.

If this is such a clusterfuck can we toss NC on this and just move past it?

[Hugin]

NC is for the fictions. This shit all happened in the forums.

[Ptesan-Wi]

A brief note from my own opinion....

I am not of the belief that raw power levels are the problem on N!Prime. Ultimax, for example, was a great character who also happened to have a helluva lot of points.

No, I think that the main problems here are:

1. Characters with an all-encompassing, anything-goes "theme". I'm sorry, but "I can defeat anything I face" is not a theme; it's a conceit. Find a theme and stick to it, and things tend not to get out of hand.

2. Characters that wind up popping whatever funky power they happen to need for any given equation. "What's that? I'm going to need to sneak my Elite ass into an appartment? Well, good thing I just spent the last week developing... invisibility and sonic dampening!" Accept that sometimes a given task is outside of your means, and either take a different approach to the problem or work with someone who does have the needed skillset.

3. As Revenant has said, communication. I'm one of the biggest offenders on this... but I'm trying to change.

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Ptesan-Wi

A brief note from my own opinion....

I am not of the belief that raw power levels are the problem on N!Prime. Ultimax, for example, was a great character who also happened to have a helluva lot of points.

I agree. I thought he was awesome, just had a mess of NPs. He had character, and character goes a long way.

Kudos to Craig. Sorry to see Ulti leave.

Quote:

No, I think that the main problems here are:

1. Characters with an all-encompassing, anything-goes "theme". I'm sorry, but "I can defeat anything I face" is not a theme; it's a conceit. Find a theme and stick to it, and things tend not to get out of hand.

2. Characters that wind up popping whatever funky power they happen to need for any given equation. "What's that? I'm going to need to sneak my Elite ass into an appartment? Well, good thing I just spent the last week developing... invisibility and sonic dampening!" Accept that sometimes a given task is outside of your means, and either take a different approach to the problem or work with someone who does have the needed skillset.

3. As Revenant has said, communication. I'm one of the biggest offenders on this... but I'm trying to change.

Wow. Sometimes... I wanna have your baby.

These three things are a great focus for discussion. I just wish we could move past Good Alice and those lame ass temples to get to the important stuff.

[Velvet]

I was under the impression that NC was (more or less) used to describe any event that directly contradicted events of the canon universe, or would otherwise spin said events so far out of whack as to make the situation untenable for a majority of forumgoers/characters. It's the ultimate Seal of Disapproval, in most cases. Would it not be possible to simply take a vote, with the decision rendered indicating whether or not we'd all just ignore the fact it ever happened, or head out to Mexico en masse and start dismantling shit?

I also don't think that solving the problem for Good Alice, as Jager and Dawn have indicated, is a good idea. Actions in any shared world have consequences, and sometimes those consequences suck. Let this be a learning experience for GA's player, not a crutch to lean on when/if he screws up again.

[Dawn OOC]

Originally Posted By: Velvet

I also don't think that solving the problem for Good Alice, as Jager and Dawn have indicated, is a good idea. Actions in any shared world have consequences, and sometimes those consequences suck. Let this be a learning experience for GA's player, not a crutch to lean on when/if he screws up again.

You misunderstand my intentions (you'll have to ask Jager his). I was doing it for everyone else, so that we could really see what was going on. Then we could start to work things out with Dreamer to get something that works for all. Because I don't think it's just the idea; it's the implimentation of the temples, followed by the complete lack of respect with the whole statues thing, which is another issue entirely.

[Sakurako Hino]

Originally Posted By: Velvet

...or head out to Mexico en masse and start dismantling shit?...

You have my vote.

[Velvet]

I understand that, believe me, and I think you're a sweetheart for wanting to do it. I just don't think you should, or that you should have to. You didn't make the mistakes, and there's no reason you should give up your time and energy to fix things for someone who's proven unwilling to fix them himself.

Actually, here's a thought.

Why don't we make a contest of it? Set up a panel of judges, and the character(s) who come up with the best fic to wrap up this whole mess see it approved as canon.

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Velvet

wrap up this whole mess

Like... in a bodybag with a toe-tag?

[Hugin]

Originally Posted By: Revenant

These three things are a great focus for discussion. I just wish we could move past Good Alice and those lame ass temples to get to the important stuff.

Well than lets do it.

Good Alice is a worthless fucktard that has never added anything positive to RPG-Post.

I'm done.

Rev? Wanna start a new thread?

[AquaMarine]

Before every one walks out the door I have to tell you that I've never understood the fascination with this temple affair. I've read all the threads and it's not even in the group of "Things I Don't Care About". I just never understood why anybody would care about it. The player obviously never developed the idea, never really wanted to and should have been told "that's nice dear" every time it came up because she didn't care to develop it. If you break it down she conned the Mexican government into ceding the use of acres of sand. Big whoop, mega attributes are wonderful things. She built structures. Big whoop now there are buildings *gasp* where there weren't any before. She made some statues modeled after the novas of the age. Big whoop, its legal AFAICK and if that's the worst thing that ever happened to your characters then you might want to peek around the internet to see what kind of stuff surfaces for celebrities in the real world.

Seriously, more power to the people that want to help out a player that doesn't care to do it. Jager and Dawn are obviously wonderful and caring individuals that are deeply concerned for everyone to whom this is an issue. I have no idea why its an issue but thumbs up to Jager and Dawn.

[Velvet]

You don't care. Awesome. Bully for you.

Not relevant to the discussion, however. Lots of us do care, for the reasons stated previously. And, yes... Dawn and Jager are wonderful people. However, facilitating/condoning things like this is generally a bad idea in my opinion.

[AquaMarine]

Originally Posted By: Velvet

You don't care.

Not quite. What I said was that it doesn't even rate being placed in the group of Things I Don't Care About. I find the entire affair to be a bit of a mystery. There seem to be quite a few otherwise intelligent people devoting a great deal of time and effort to the task of debating whether a sow's ear can be turned into a silk purse and how to go about it.

Originally Posted By: Velvet

Not relevant to the discussion, however. Lots of us do care, for the reasons stated previously.

Irrelevant to the discussion in that you seem to grasp what is so very wrong with the whole affair and why it constitutes a personal affront. Very true. Not much I can say to that when I've already admitted I don't get it. But I seem to recall this temple affair was not the problem the thread was created to address. My understanding is the player and the temples was brought up as an an example of a kind of problem that was being discussed in the thread.

You seem reasonable and intelligent. Grant me the same assumption if only for the sake of argument. Now there are two reasonable and intelligent people, one of whom seems to think the problems with the temple affair are self evident while the other can't fathom why you would waste any time or effort on idea that is the role playing equivalent of vaporware. There would seem to be a communication issue, which I believe is the kind of problem the thread was addressing.

I also feel Jager and Dawn are making a misstep but its simply a gut reaction. This is not backing away from the idea they are wonderful and compassionate people. But... Nobody likes the idea. I'm willing to assume they have reasons beyond the fact the player is disliked in general but at the end of the day no one appears to see any merit to the idea. The player is incapable of developing the idea. The idea itself, even if it were developed fully seems to be the sort of social white elephant that might be well known within fifty miles of it's location but forgotten by the world at large within a week. Most importantly the player seems to thrive on attention and cares not at all whether its negative or positive. So at the moment while everyone else is very cross over the fragmented non-idea, the temple player is basking in the glow of satisfaction.

Anyone care to explain how that works?

[Vivi OOC]

You wrote a very eloquent and well-thought out post which was, in my opinion, largely unnecessary. This thread began as a place for Revenant to explain his side of the PW/Lakota brouhaha in the forums- no more, and no less. Since then, it's undergone several mutations and no longer remotely resembles the original.

Those subjects which are currently being discussed, specifically the issue to which you attach no importance, are still issues. They are recurring problems of varying degrees of severity, and the temples are the most current and obvious example. Whether or not you agree with the discussion process or the intent behind it, it's something that needs to be settled for the majority of the playerbase for future reference.

How the player in question feels about it- whether he's basking in the glow of the attention or huddled in a corner- is not my concern. Those choices are his, and do not affect me in the slightest.

I've made my suggestion for dealing with that particular problem, and with the others, and I would appreciate it immensely if you would direct your concern for the swift resolution of the communication issues to finding ways to solve the matter, rather than discussing at length why you do or do not believe said issue is one worthy of consideration.

If this sounds rude, I do apologize, but there is something in the posts you've written that smacks of condescension and it rankles.

[AquaMarine]

You don't need to apologize for any seeming rudeness. I don't see you as rude, rather, someone that holds very different views from my own. Although it may not lessen the burden of dealing with me, please understand that in an OOC thread you are talking to me. I won't be making jokes or condescending to anyone in a thread that I see it is an open input to the site admin. Aside from not particularly enjoying zero sum games, I won't waste an opportunity for an open input to the site admin by playing others for points.

You know far better than I why Revenent started the thread but I believe the thread has evolved and within 4-5 posts. It took a decidedly different tone when Chosen entered the thread. In my opinion it became something else with the concurrence of the player behind Revenent. I say it was with his concurrence because of what he was willing to discuss as the thread proceeded on the course it has taken. I understand you disagree and accept your right to do so. its not desirable we fail to agree on simple issues in a thread that is about communication but its a reality.

At this point I am putting together what is probably going to be a large post. I hope its eloquent and thoughtful. At its heart its an open answer to the site admin, an elaboration of my view of why things happen the way they do, and why I've changed my mind about communication issues being the heart of the problems that were quoted in this thread as problems.

Please bear with me. I can't promise you'll like or appreciate any of it. It very possible you won't. Its Also unlikely to change your views of me or RPG-Post but if you do read it... Keep in mind I don't say things I don't mean or act from hidden motivations.

Out of character, what you see is what you get.