Unbeatable

[Timeslip]

Quote:

Originally posted by Vixen:
However, I'm not in the Q6 arena, and I rarely interact with the NPCs anyways, so perhaps this is a discussion I should bow out of and leave to those who do these things with some regularity.

I am in the Q6 arena, I have interacted with Orzaiz on a few occasions, and I still don't know what the heck Jager is really looking for in this thread. That said, your post seemed to have every bit as much on the ball as the rest here, so don't count yourself irrelevant.

I will say that, when TS interacted with Orzaiz, there was never a moment when the Count was not in control of the situation. It's what Orzaiz does, and despite some of TS's more...Machiavellian tendancies, she doesn't come close to approaching the same league -- or even the same sport -- as Orzaiz.

[Hugin]

I take it this is a dead issue then? No one else going to comment on Jager's concerns? Jager not going to address anyone elses points?

[Neil Preston]

{First off, I've had bronchitis since Tuesday (but didn't know it), and I wanted to give this a little more time.}

The desire to interact with canon NPC's seems to be minimal. At the most, the common theme is to use the canon NPCs as a sort of fixture, or window dressing in a story, but not as central players.

In other words, it is okay to have a chat with Orzaiz, or even have you join his faction, but if you are going to effect somebody, you need to create a new NPC to effect.

TimeSlip/Long as an example:

She meets with Orzaiz to join the Casablancas, but creates an Harvester assassin to come and attempt to murder her.

Also, it seems to be okay to use canon NPCs as a bludgeon, but bludgeoning them is not okay.

Beyond that, I've encountered a resistance to wrap one's character too tightly in interactions with canon NPC's.

[Hugin]

I'd agree with that assessment.

If we interact too forcefully with canon NPCs we shape them. When we shape them we are changing them not just for our character's interactions but we're re-defining them for everyone.

Canon NPC usage should be fairly minimal when it comes to pushing them outside of the box they've been presented. Scripture is presented as fairly laid back, but with a hint of steel. Turning him into a psychotic is probably overboard. I think it best to treat the Canon NPCs as archetypes, story pieces. If you want an NPC that is really textured and detailed create one yourself. Then you can have that NPC act exactly as your need without stepping on anyone's toes.

[Troy]

Speaking for no one but myself... Why would you want to link your character with a character out of the books? Besides Mal and Pax anyway.

[Count Janos Rakozi]

Dating Alejandra. Working with her in the Novoxx scene.

Develop a long term mentoring relationship with Count Orzaiz. Becoming a core member of the Casablancas.

Riding through hell and high water with Geryon as a member NV. Being a core member of NV and becoming someone who watches his back.

Having a tight relationship with Splash as a member of T2M Asia/Pacific. Looking at the inner workings of PU from her perspective as one of her closest associates ... maybe even lover.

Sure, I could say Syren, Count Orloff, Galbreth, or Lady Storm instead of the canon NPC's, but that seems so hollow to me. There aren't that many members of the Teragen, or T2M out there as it is. So, not only am I adding my PC, I am also sticking one or more other NPC's of my own creation into the mix when canon provides us with people ... who we just aren't going to use.

[Ashnod]

So, what if I say that Alejandra and I are having a relationship at the same time you were? (She wasn't, but that isn't the issue). You're essentially laying claim to this character, AND Pratima, and everyone else who Jager's dipped his wick into.

It just seems to smack of a plea for legitimacy that THESE characters react to Jager the way you want them to. He has access to the Teragen cause he's chummy with the Count. He has access to PU because he's boning Splash.

It's not ANY member of these organizations. It's in some ways the most respected members - thus - the if the most respected members of these organizations trust him - he simply must be legit and he's not lying about he's doing.

But, at the same time, this can run afoul with how any one of us perceived those people before you laid claim to their actions and acceptance of him.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Count Janos Rakozi:
Dating Alejandra.

Here is a good example of re-defining a character for everyone.

Alejandra is presented as a devout Catholic. She's the ultimate good girl, met with the Pope and sings about her faith. And she throws her legs open for Jager? Outside of marriage?

Ummmmm, okay. Why? Because he wasn't impressed with her stardom? For that she gives it up?

[Jager]

Ashnod, as opposed to declaring one is part of the Pantheon? One of the Teragen elite?

[Troy]

Okay but its still a little out of focus for me. Is it all about getting tight with Alejandra or is it about changing the face of (whatever nova music called)? Cuz one doesn't lead to the other and I see a couple of problems between relationship and music. Maybe that example is too involved with other stuff so let me try a simple one. Is the point about riding out with Geryon and as part of his posse or being in Nova Vigilance and strking a blow for the one race?

I don't see the two being an either/or kind of thing but one's always more important than the other. Which is it here?

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Ashnod, as opposed to declaring one is part of the Pantheon? One of the Teragen elite?

Point of fact - Ashnod has never declared to be one of the Pantheon.

NOT ONCE.

If you assume her to be part of it, that is your assumption (and anyone else's for that matter) to make.

She hasn't claimed to be such.

Nor have I ever OOCLY said she is, except that she was in a table-top game.

I have been told by players here that she seems to be part of it, or that her knowledge of Teras and the Teragen seems to make her so, or that they consider her to be a very high-ranking Terat because of the conviction of her beliefs or what not.

But that's all IC and OOC assumption made over the several years of work I spent developing her here. I've never relied on a canon-character to legitimize that assumption.

[Jager]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
Point of fact - Ashnod has never declared to be one of the Pantheon.

NOT ONCE.

Good enough. Glad to know she is not.

[Jager]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
Here is a good example of re-defining a character for everyone.

Alejandra is presented as a devout Catholic. She's the ultimate good girl, met with the Pope and sings about her faith. And she throws her legs open for Jager? Outside of marriage?

Ummmmm, okay. Why? Because he wasn't impressed with her stardom? For that she gives it up?

A) Never said she was "giving it up" to Jager. They dated. They spent nights together. Never said they had sex.
She was also a regular in the Amp Room, so she isn't a total prude.
C) Even good Catholic girls give it up occassionally. Not saying it happened, but saying that the possibility does exist.

What I see here is that the only definition you are going to accept is your definintion and anything that challenges that is plain wrong. That's not sharing.
That's not saying she may have "really, really" liked Jager, so maybe acted a little differently around him than she would have normally.

[Jager]

Quote:

Originally posted by Troy:
Okay but its still a little out of focus for me.

Maybe that example is too involved with other stuff so let me try a simple one. Is the point about riding out with Geryon and as part of his posse or being in Nova Vigilance and strking a blow for the one race?

I don't see the two being an either/or kind of thing but one's always more important than the other. Which is it here?

Your question is unclear to me, but I will give it a shot.

Can you define your character as being someone who it tight with Geryon? By doing so, you are defining some of what Geryon does and doesn't accept as a person.
Let's say you are tight with Geryon. You build up on that then you reveal that you ate live babies from time to time while on missions. Apparently Geryon is okay with that.

In my interpretation of things, we have to step up and accept that Geryon is okay with your character eating babies, even if that doesn't jive with how we have seen him.

[Troy]

I don't think Geryon cares but that's me.

What I was asking is which was more important. Hanging out with Geryon or doing the same kind of stuff Geryon does. In one case Geryon is the whole point and nothing is ever good enough unless Geryon is there. In the other case Geryon is just someone with some press that travels in the same circle and if done right your character is going to overshadow him.

That's why I asked if it was more important to be able to hang around with Geryon or to do the kind of things Geryon does.

[The White Rat]

Geryon doesn't mind if someone eats babies? Cool, then he and Rat can still hang out together.

[Jager]

Quote:

Originally posted by Troy:
I don't think Geryon cares but that's me.

I'm glad we all have the freedom to express things that way. The point is we are going to have differing views about canon NPCs. We should each be allowed to do so, even if it stretches what others see about them.
Yes, that means we will sometimes have contradictory actions.

Quote:

Originally posted by Troy:
What I was asking is which was more important. Hanging out with Geryon or doing the same kind of stuff Geryon does. In one case Geryon is the whole point and nothing is ever good enough unless Geryon is there. In the other case Geryon is just someone with some press that travels in the same circle and if done right your character is going to overshadow him.

Yes. I like seeing PC's put in context with canon NPCs that way.

Quote:

Originally posted by Troy:
That's why I asked if it was more important to be able to hang around with Geryon or to do the kind of things Geryon does.

Neither is more important than the other, or the are of equal importance. Take your pick.
You should be allowed to freely interact with the canon NPC's and be able to overshadow them if the author sees it as important.

A few years back, a brand new Vixxen telepathically tricked Geryon into dorming.
Did it upset how I saw Geryon?
Yes.
The thing was, I talked to the author and we worked out the possible repurcussions of such an action and didn't automatically jump to the "That would never happen!" game. We worked on it and I think we were both rather satisfied at the end.
The author had one idea of how tough Geryon was and I had another. Together, we made it work.

[Jager]

Quote:

Originally posted by The White Rat:
Geryon doesn't mind if someone eats babies? Cool, then he and Rat can still hang out together.

WR, in your stories, you should be allowed to say that he doesn't mind. That's the general point I'm aiming at.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:



A) Never said she was "giving it up" to Jager. They dated. They spent nights together. Never said they had sex.

Said it outright? No, no you didn't. You just alluded to it very nicely. I read your story, that's what certainly came across. If that wasn't your intention you did a shitty job of it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

She was also a regular in the Amp Room, so she isn't a total prude.

Didn't say she was a prude. Said I didn't see her fucking some mystery man. Bit of a difference. Unless of course the only ones who won't put out for Jager are the prudes of the world. He really that irresistable?

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

C) Even good Catholic girls give it up occassionally. Not saying it happened, but saying that the possibility does exist.

She's more than just a good Catholic girl. She's hounded by the fucking media, she's the poster child for Catholicism. I love that last little sentence too. You can say you never said it specifically but you know how it comes across. Sweet.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

What I see here is that the only definition you are going to accept is your definintion and anything that challenges that is plain wrong. That's not sharing.
That's not saying she may have "really, really" liked Jager, so maybe acted a little differently around him than she would have normally.

I didn't write the books.

You want to share? Really? Why do I think you're lying? You want Jager to be all that. You want him to be connected to Utopia at the highest levels, you want him to be hooked into the Casablancas at the highest levels, you want to be hooked into Nova Vigilance at the highest levels. You want to be the man in every way shape and form. You want to be the poster child for the sly politicians and the thuggish ass-kickers all at the same time. You want to be best friend to everyone but for no one to "know you" because Jager has "powers" that prevent people from knowing about him. He gets one of the most famous women in the world as a girlfriend but still, gets to remain mysterious.

And don't try that "You don't know me" schpeal. I know you, I've been watching you for four years now. It's really easy to see. Get challenged make yourself the victim. Get challenged claim that people hate you. Get challenged and make yourself the victim.

Never mind. You write what you want to. I'll scream bullshit when I need to.

[Jager]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
Said it outright? No, no you didn't. You just alluded to it very nicely. I read your story, that's what certainly came across. If that wasn't your intention you did a shitty job of it.

Or, your mind is in the gutter. Funny, but I dated a girl for over a year and we never had sex ... and we even spent nights together.

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
Didn't say she was a prude. Said I didn't see her fucking some mystery man. Bit of a difference. Unless of course the only ones who won't put out for Jager are the prudes of the world. He really that irresistable?

So, fucking some non-Mystery Man would be okay?
Yes, he is that irresistable, though.

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
She's more than just a good Catholic girl. She's hounded by the fucking media, she's the poster child for Catholicism. I love that last little sentence too. You can say you never said it specifically but you know how it comes across. Sweet.

If she is the poster child for Catholicism, what is she doing partying all night at the Amp Room ... you know, the place were dance inside the gellotinous glob and Slattern makes everyone happy, happy, happy?
It says she parties there in the original description of the Amp Room.
Again, it is a matter of definitions. You have yours. I have mine.

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
You want to share? Really? Why do I think you're lying? You want Jager to be all that. You want him to be connected to Utopia at the highest levels, you want him to be hooked into the Casablancas at the highest levels, you want to be hooked into Nova Vigilance at the highest levels. You want to be the man in every way shape and form. You want to be the poster child for the sly politicians and the thuggish ass-kickers all at the same time. You want to be best friend to everyone but for no one to "know you" because Jager has "powers" that prevent people from knowing about him. He gets one of the most famous women in the world as a girlfriend but still, gets to remain mysterious.

Is Jager being "The Man", as you describe him, such a horrible thing for you? Funny, but I think it isn't all that impossible using the proper backgrounds and M-Social abilities. The game world allows it.

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
And don't try that "You don't know me" schpeal. I know you, I've been watching you for four years now. It's really easy to see. Get challenged make yourself the victim. Get challenged claim that people hate you. Get challenged and make yourself the victim.

I have been claiming to be a victim? Since when?
I don't think I'm hated. I do think that some of the stuff I do irritates people. Sometimes I try to bend and make it right and sometimes I don't.

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
Never mind. You write what you want to. I'll scream bullshit when I need to.

Undoubtably, I will be hearing from you soon.

[Troy]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
I like seeing PC's put in context with canon NPCs that way.

Good. Sounds reasonable and reasonable can be worked.

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Neither is more important than the other, or the are of equal importance. Take your pick.
You should be allowed to freely interact with the canon NPC's and be able to overshadow them if the author sees it as important.

Not so good but it looks like we're talking about two different things. It sounded like you were saying it was important to be able to hang out with Geryon just to say you could hang out with Geryon. That struck me wrong. Its just as likely Geryon would be hanging out with him/her/them if they had the kahones. Or wishing he'd thought of what the PC did. Its not Geryon is the pope. He started the movement but that isn't saying he gets to keep it. I couldn't see the big deal about hanging out with canon character.

Carry on.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
Point of fact - Ashnod has never declared to be one of the Pantheon.

NOT ONCE.

Good enough. Glad to know she is not.

You're assuming again. I didn't say she wasn't either. And neither has she.

[Jager]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:
]You're assuming again. I didn't say she wasn't either. And neither has she.

True enough. I guess that makes you assumably a Woman of Mystery. Now, if you ever assume that she is part of the Pantheon, please don't be assuming you won't be seeing Jager there when you show up.

[Jager]

Quote:

Originally posted by Troy:
Not so good but it looks like we're talking about two different things. It sounded like you were saying it was important to be able to hang out with Geryon just to say you could hang out with Geryon. That struck me wrong. Its just as likely Geryon would be hanging out with him/her/them if they had the kahones. Or wishing he'd thought of what the PC did. Its not Geryon is the pope. He started the movement but that isn't saying he gets to keep it. I couldn't see the big deal about hanging out with canon character.

Carry on.

The thing is, I don't believe anyone being uncomfortable with an idea should immediately nix it for someone else.
If you feel it is important to your character that he hang out with Geryon, that's your privilege. I shouldn't be allowed to deny you it.
If I find your wants totally unreasonable, I would prefer that we be able to deal with it as adults. There are going to be times when we just disagree and I think that we should agree to disagree. Even if your actions ruin my conceptions of Geryon, I shouldn't be allowed stop you.

[kestrel404]

Jager, the only problem I have with you interacting at the highest levels of every organization is the fact that you do it with impunity.

You dated Alejandra and broke up with her. No one is sure whether you bedded her or not, but you DID spend unmonitored time with her. You should be hounded by paparazzi for the rest of eternity. This is not an exaggeration.

You hang out with, and in some cases assist, Nova Vigilance, and Geryon. You should be branded as a Terat, or at least a sympathiser (Alchemist DOES considder you a Teragen sympathiser, but that doesn't matter too much since he's one too). This should be noted in your Directive & Utopia files, and hinted at in public, if not stated outright.

But, most of all, if you've got a current relationship with Splash, then that should count against HER, as a member of T2M associating with a Terat. Not a sympathiser, because of your connections and your 'history', an actual Terat. Yes, I'm fully accounting for all aspects of your history. You're far too much of a rogue agent or loose cannon for the higher-ups in Utopia (IE Proteus, Aeon, etc) to considder you anything but a THREAT. And thus, your association with Splash would be considdered a contamination of her.

If it's a past relationship, then she would now be turned against you, or cold towards you, or at the very least afraid that the powers that be will find out about you.

Also, the fact that you beat up two members of the Teragen Pantheon wouldn't just catch the attention of the other Terats. I think it would call down MAL on you, to teach you a lesson in humility. Regardless of whether you did it in self defense or not.

I don't care too much if you use the canon characters or not. Heck, I think that they could do with a bit of change (they should not be static, but they are treated as such here). But the consequences of actions are at least as important as the actions themselves. To the story and to the world we share.

[Wakinyan]

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemist:

But, most of all, if you've got a current relationship with Splash, then that should count against HER, as a member of T2M associating with a Terat.

And let us not forget his lost love Caroline Fong.

[Ptesan-Wi]

Alchemist did a dandy job summing things up, as far as he went. That said, it's not the entirety of the problem.

Jager (and a fair assortment of Jager's alts) not only has his fingers in every organization's pies; he whedles his way into every individual's secrets, with little to no regard for the fact that some of this stuff is secret for a reason.

A prime example was what happened in chat last night. Neil Preston is going to be visiting Wakinyan, and by extension Thoughtwave. Jager casually commented that Neil will know in about three seconds that Thoughtwave is something other than a nova.

Never mind that it's been made clear, repeatedly, that Thoughtwave is exceedingly careful to not use her powers around novas that are not in-the-know about her non-novaness. Never mind that her being dormed, or her having a shield of some sort, or her having a distributed node, or any number of other things is a good deal shorter of a logical leap than deciding in mere seconds that she's a non-nova power user. Apparently, Occam's Razor takes a back seat to Neil knowing every damned thing just because.

And this gets in the way of a core character concept of Thoughtwave. She’s trying to stay out of Utopia’s hands, because they have orders to grab her (and even Utopia doesn’t know what she is; they simply have standing orders to grab anyone that exhibits powers but has an undetectable node, to be handed off to “another agency” that is, in reality, Pandora). The only novas that know that she’s not a nova are Alchemist (who helped her determine it), Iron Rose and Augment (who she lived with and told), and Wakinyan (who she is currently mated to and told). The last thing on the planet that is wanted is for Neil Preston to waltz in and suddenly magically know that she’s a non-nova power user, as he has connections out the wazoo.

Part of his excuse? Neil "just happens" to know about N-rays, and Telluric energy, and paramorphs, and all the other stuff that was buried deep, deep down the memory hole by Aeon. Darned convenient, eh? Must be fracking nice to "just happen" to have IC access to this knowledge that "just happens" to wash away almost every secret in the Trinity Universe.

But trying to get this through to Jager in chat was like pounding my head against a wall. He just seems to assume that it is his natural right to know everything about everyone, because it’s what he wants to do. It is, in a way, an extention of the problem with meddling with canon characters -- he meddles with everything, canon and not, and I do not think that I am alone in being sick to death of it.

[Hugin]

Okay James, by the numbers.

1. Look at what you wrote. It has a certain tone to it. It was obvious to me you were implying that they did have that level of physical relationship. But no, you didn't outright say that they did. So, you imply they did but you get to use the lack of specifics as a defense? I'm not impressed.

2. I would find it more likely that she'd have a relationship with someone who wasn't a bundle of "mystery" yes. Someone she could know about, someone she'd have a reason to trust. With Jager's unknowable past she would have every single handler, agent, and/or manager screaming to get away from him because he could taint her. The paparazzi would have a fucking feeding frenzy over crawling through Jager's entire existence. Cypher only gives you resistence to investigation, not immunity.

3. Aren't you the one that described the Amp Room as somewhere you could have quite conversations and political intrigue? Just because she dances there doesn't mean she's in the back room allowing every Tom, Dick and Cromar the Avenger to run a train on her.

4. Horrible thing to me? Not really. It's absurd. Poorly thought out and silly, but not horrible to me. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be done. I legally can put on a gallery show of shit smeared photos of political and religious figures. Doesn't make it good or worthwhile.

5. When did you portray yourself as a victim? On conversation with me when you created analogies that painted yourself in the place of a homosexual wanting to get married and me as a religious extremist trying to deny you happiness and another where I was likened to a nazi on a purge with you as the victim. You don't think people hate you? Then why did you ask Thoughtwave why she hated you when she expressed her distaste for your behavior?

[Jager]

Okay, this is turning into why we hate Jager thread, but okay.

One, I see the Alejandra thing more in the light of a Jackie Kennedy meeting Onasis, the secretive Greek Tycoon.

They spent quiet weekends away from the spotlight. They went to a handful of premiers and such together. They went to private parties together.

Unlike normal folks, Jager can just dissappear ... vanish ... he's gone. There is not trail to trace.

There is no relationship with Splash, beyond they know each other. They don't date. They don't hang out.

Jager's relationship with Geryon is very, very quiet. It is known to about half a dozen people, all with good reasons to not talk about it.

It is known that Jager hung out with Caroline Fong, Marcel Delormier, Pedro Santiago, and Count Orzaiz around the turn of the millenia and during the foundation of the Teragen. It is also widely believed that he left on bad terms with most of them. This is a misconception that Jager and others perpetuate.

The only known terat that Jager seems to be on good terms with is Count Orzaiz. Big surprise.

The Amp Room is also a place were Slattern turns the whole place into an orgy ... with mininmal repurcussions. I don't recall Aljendra listening to her handlers when she startered her career (in fact she went against them) and when she became a regular at the Amp Room.

All kinds of things happen at the Amp Room, true. It is still primarily a wild party mecca.

Beyond that, Jager has in his past being a top notch elite, running a non-profit humanitarian agency (destroyed by the Teragen, btw) and now a Municipal Defender.

As for the Art Show, its happened. I didn't think it was art, either, but I also acknowledged that other people might think it was art.

The relationships between you and I, Prodigy was more of a highlight by me to show what I see as your unyeilding fanaticsm about how you are always right. How your viewpoint is the only one that matters.

Jager's relationship with Caroline Fong is known by about a dozen people, most of whom wouldn't hurt Jager by making it public knowledge that they had affections for one another, their last meeting was a screaming match, and that Jager never got to tell her he was sorry ... or of his feeling of guilt for not being there for her when she needed him.

Alchemist, Jager doesn't interact with Geryon except in secret. They are friendly and they talk to one another. He has never gone riding with Nova Vigilance and generally condems their actions.

As for Mal falling down on Jager and teaching him a lesson ... well Mal knows he could stomp Jager into a mud hole and Jager knows it too. What would proving something they both know to be true prove?

Jager grew up learning to hate Mal and all he stood for. When Jager met a younger and different Mal, he became conflicted. Mal, being Mal, has let Jager figure things out for himself. Jager is not a threat to nova kind, nor is he trying to show the whole world who is the toughest nova.

Note, the Angel of Bones almost kills Orzaiz. The module says that Orzaiz dies if no one does anything. Mal doesn't lift a finger and Orzaiz is closer to him than either Geryon or Leviathen.

Beyond that, Mal knows that if he ever went to Jager and told him to do something, or stop doing something, Jager would do it.

These things are not something I felt is was necessary for other people to know.

Thoughtwave,

1)The Enhancement Quantum Attunement is pretty clear that is shows things like Node, Quantum, and Taint.

Now, Neil could assume that someone has this exotic power that masks their node and quantum, as well as all the other physiological signs of being a nova (those free Endurance and Resistance level along with the longevity), or he could assume that he is looking at something other than a nova.

Why is it assumed that novas are the one and only things to weild powers?

As for the book ... well, I really like Adventure. I like the links between it and Aberrant. I love the idea of Neil meeting a Daredevil and being completely stumped by how this totally normal human can still tweek reality.

I like the idea so much, I put it into Neil's background. I didnt' provide him with a blueprint for the Aeon Society, Project Rewrite, Project Pandora, and the whole psychomorph/stalwart thing. I provided him an opening. I figured for a bright young man looking into the foundations of nova existance might be interested in such things.

Back to his theoretical meeting with Thoughtwave ... what happens? He realizes she probably isn't a nova. What do you expect him to do with that knowledge? Who would he tell? Why in the hell would he bring any heat to Wakinyan's doorstep?

If you want him to not notice, just let me know and we can ignore those possibilities. It really is that simple.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

The relationships between you and I, Prodigy was more of a highlight by me to show what I see as your unyeilding fanaticsm about how you are always right. How your viewpoint is the only one that matters.

That one goes both ways, James.

[Singularity]

Jager, I think the reason why this topic keeps coming 'round and 'round again is the general issue is being lost in the details. Rather, we've lost the forest while looking at the trees.

Each point that's been presented to you has been met with perfectly logical and balanced answers, each one of them making sense and eliciting a "sure, I don't like it, but I can understand why it's like that." So far so good.

Were there a few points of contention then this would be a pointless, repetitive, and vicious exercise. Unfortunately, for everyone involved, that doesn't appear to be the case. What I keep reading is point after point, the vast majority being unique in specificity but can all be placed under a few different categories, if not a single one.

What I think I'm seeing her, Jager, is a people have an issue with general things in the way you've run your characters and interactions. It's not a matter of whether, say, Preston did X one time or did Y another, its a matter of Preston doing A (of which X and Y are examples) nearly all the time, if not always. It's not specific instances, it's patterns of behavior some people might find to be abusive to other players/characters.

Another example and a bit of a blast from the past: there's a good case for Jager to have Quantum Six. Same for Preston. Same for Neil. Same for Bastian. Same for the Paragon. Individually, there seems to be nothing wrong. However, in this instance, you have five characters (potentially all of your active characters and one of your old/inactive characters) that all have Quantum Six, something that has already been established as an extreme rarity here and something that far outstrips the differences in power levels between other levels of Quantum. Then consider that each of those characters could stop any "normal" character on the board. Sure, we have ultimate control over each character, but good role playing dictates at least acknowledging another character's abilities and statistics, leaving us with five characters, all under one person's control, acting as a very powerful trump. Or, more simply, it's not a matter of impropriety, it's the appearance of impropriety. And we can analogize this to the knowledge issue: Jager knows essentially every canonical secret, Preston knows about the sterilization program, Neil knows about the Adventure! era (which I personally love) and has met a daredevil (which, by the way, no one can truly detect because their abilities are simply luck and skill, not the alteration of reality). Individually: not so bad. All together as an aggregate: we can see why someone might have a problem.

Now, this could easily (and rightfully and logically) be chalked up to a difference in role playing styles. And I would be rather peeved at others telling me that my style is all wrong and stupid. But this might not entirely be the case here. What I always seem to take away from this is a general concern for how that particular role playing style will affect character interaction and lead to railroading. While you might've been responsible so far and may stay that way, there's still the possibility and appearance that you might not and there's the possibility someone else will not be so restricted with such power. The threat of someone abusing such power by (intentionally or unintentionally) altering someone's plans for their character is a valid concern and something like that happening goes against the very grain of the boards and fiction section (per the FAQ).

Hence, this is what I think I've been reading here: all of these little nitpicks about your characters and actions, Jager, are merely examples and it's the pattern those examples paint is the crux of their issue. And the concern that is created by that issue is how it will affect their characters and their stories in ways that they cannot hope to control. The concern is a fear of character and story hijacking and it's a valid concern. And I'm not really hearing anyone truly calling for blood, I'm hearing people asking for some kind of reassurance that there will be no abuses.

Of course, I could be completely wrong and reading things completely out of context. I've been, essentially, sitting this one out. And I'm so in my class mind set that I almost used the term "totality of the circumstances" about five times. Just consider this one person's observations.

[Noir]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
[QB]

Is Jager being "The Man", as you describe him, such a horrible thing for you? Funny, but I think it isn't all that impossible using the proper backgrounds and M-Social abilities. The game world allows it.

]

Let me just says this…

Yes, “The game world allows it”. And the Rules allow for a lot of things as well, but there are people who make characters and do things, that yes the rules allow, and they are not breaking the rules, but they also get labeled as "twinks" and "munchkins" and “powergamers” and so forth too and people do not want to bother playing with them.

Yes, certain things ARE allowable by the rules, but that does not mean it should be done nor does it mean that doing it will not have all sorts affects of people's perception of the player and the character OOC (i.e. turning the player into a “twink in” their eyes and therefore making it very, very hard to take the character seriously and even want to bother interacting with him.)

It is easy for one get caught up in things and to go a bit too far without noticing just how far into twinkdom one has gone. The real measure though is if one is able or even has the desire to come back out it.

~Noir

[The White Rat]

What is a 'twink' and a 'munchkin'. I know what a 'powergamer' is, but these other terms are unfamiliar.

As for unbeatable ultra-powerful characters, I would make them into canon NPC's where their impact is little on the other more 'mundane' characters. Why play a character in which there is no fear of death or imprisonment? How can that be fun?

[Magus]

Not that my enthusiasm for getting involved in this topic is brimming over, Singularity covered the overview extremely well, but I see a small specific point being overlooked. I'd rather you didn't lump me in with the "I hate Jager" group, partly because it doesn't exist as such and partly because that's not the reason I look askance upon Jager. The overlooked point can be summed up thusly;

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

Jager's relationship with Geryon is very, very quiet.

Really.

James, every nova that has ever bothered to spend time on the opnet, i.e. Nprime, knows that Jager;

1. Had a relationship with Caroline Fong sometime in the past, even though only the Terats and a small number of Utopians have any idea who she is.

2. Spends time with Geryon and considered him a close personal friend.

3. Believes he's from an alternate universe and has been to at least two others before this one.

4. Knows his earliest verifiable memory is dropping into Central Park from a great altitude shortly after the Galatea blew up.

5. Has had intimate meetings with members of the Teragen, aka a terrorist organization.

6. Is knowledgeable of the procedures and organization of the Directive.

7. Claims knowledge of a personal nature is a potential threat to him, though he's not nearly so reticent regarding others.

8. He believes in a day and age when nuclear weapons have been banned and disabled that it was overlooked that someone tried to kill him by setting one off.

9. Has met personally with the most wanted individual on the planet, aka Mal, on at least two separate occasions.

10. Is precognitive, though he's been careful to shield the scope of his abilities.

11. Has entered the Bahrain Rashoud Facility, illicitly I think Jager claimed but its been some time.

12. Asks for advice from Pedro Santiago and is asked for advice in turn.

Man of mystery is not the way I characterize Jager, as he is the most credible threat to his own supposed "aura of mystery". Of all the ways and means to admit to anything he chose the one that leaves a record and is accessible to the entire planet?

I believe I can say this factually; situations like this are exactly the reason characters are retconned in comic books. The baggage builds to such unbelievably gargantuan proportions that it is no longer possible for the character to be true to the very concepts they are based on. Jager is in such a position now in that so much has gone on before, so many sacrifices/compromises/admissions have taken place, that its not possible for him to be viewed in the light you wish others to use. Suspension of disbelief has become too difficult.

You might want to do something about that.

You may look at this as a criticism if you wish, but I'd prefer you look on it as a situational analysis. Viewing it as criticism would mean a failure to convey the point in a manner accessible to you as a player. And this is one player speaking to another, as Jager is simply an act of fiction. Whether I "like" him or not has as much relevance as whether I like SG-1 compared to Stargate Atlantis, or whether I prefer old Trek to new Trek. I can tell you how I feel and for what reasons, but that is and should be independent of your feelings as well as the feelings of others.

[Magus]

Quote:

Originally posted by The White Rat:
What is a 'twink' and a 'munchkin'.

Twink; Used by Roleplayers, similar to a n00b.
Can also be used as a verb, usually in the context of someone who is cheating in someway. Someone who tries to gain an advantage in an online game through generally "cheap" and "dishonorable" means, such as exploting loopholes or going through a lot of trouble for a small boost.

Munchkin; Sometimes considered a synonym for powergamer. Some point out the difference between a powergamer and a munchkin is that a munchkin is driven to win at all costs. Used most often derogatively.

Related terms;

Metagamer: n. One who uses information that they know in real life, but that their character does not know, to give themselves an unfair advantage.

Powergamer - Not necessarily someone who breaks the rules, but for whom becoming more powerful is pretty much the driving goal.... by just about any means.

[Troy]

Twink

Munchkin

Wikipedia is always there for you.

[Noir]

Actually, in all the TT gaming I have played in Twink and munchkin were more or less interchangable.

Essentially, when "The rules don't say you can't" and such becomes their mantra. They look at the systems and mechanics and setting and do everything possible within the rules to gain an advantage and such.

They do not BREAK the rules, but they sure has blood hell push them to the edge of utter explotation.

Reason and such is more or less lost on them, because the combination of abilities or what have you is the best, so even if it is no reasonalabe explination of them they still want them because "the ruels do not say you can't".

They are players that the ST has to pay special attention to and generally (especially in character gen) soak up alot of the ST's time because the ST has to keep putting his/her foot down and saying "No." and "I will not allow that."

But in short, they NOT cheat or break the rules, they just wring every ounce out of advantage out of them, no matter how unreaslonable or unrealist the chatacter or what not becomes.

~Noir

[Vixen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Okay, this is turning into why we hate Jager thread, but okay.

Yeah, it kinda has. Unfortunately I don't have anything to contribute on that score, 'cause I actually like Jager.

If Jager's been to the moon, to alternate universes, deep under the ocean, talked to Divis Mal, talked to Max Mercer, talked to Calvin Hammersmith, been a Terat, a Utopian, an elite, a municipal defender and - very briefly - a fox, the message from my corner is, I'm fine with it.

There's a notion abroad in comics called 'continuity by omission.' It's basically the "if you don't like it, don't refer to it" principle. If, for example, you're not thrilled that during John Byrne's run on Superman, Superman stars in a porno with Jack Kirby's wife, you just don't refer to it - but you don't say it never happened. Likewise, if you'd rather forget that once upon a time Donald Blake built a fully functioning android, you don't bring it up in the pages of Thor.

You could call it the soft-continuity principle. The promise of continuity is that everything can fit together - the downfall of continuity is the notion that everything HAS to fit together. The soft-continuity principle embraces the former but not the latter.

I realize I'm perfectly fine with Jager having done all this stuff, but others might not be. For those folks, I recommend just avoiding the subject. If you don't like how he interacted with an NPC, that's fine, but the thing about NPCs is that they're exactly that - non-player characters. Given a choice between keeping the player of an NPC happy - i.e. no one - and keeping a player happy, I'll go for the latter. God knows I grind my teeth every time someone comes up with Utopian Evil Plot #655, since an NPC I'm fond of probably approved it.

Hell, I have to ignore huge chunks of continuity to have fun on N!Prime anyway. It's kind of tough to get worked up over, say, a karaoke night, when you're doomed by a certain date to fight in a war that kills millions and destroys civilization. I pretend I don't know it's coming and the day I can no longer do that is the day I stop RPing in the N!Prime universe.

[Noir]

That would totally defeat his reasons for beating uping up Levi and Geryon, for exmaple. He wanted to use it as a way to express his "bad-assness" so to speak. If you ignore it, then it was for nothing.

~Noir

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Vixen:

I realize I'm perfectly fine with Jager having done all this stuff, but others might not be. For those folks, I recommend just avoiding the subject.

Difficult considering the player's tendency to involve himself in such a large number of fictions and events. He's everywhere.