opnet [OpNet] Kids, Who Needs Em?

[Warren Verona]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sylvan:
I would have like to have children. I wanted seven or eight, at least. I like kids, needless to say.

But it is not to be.

Seven or eight? Shit. Unless you have beer flavored nipples, lose my number.

[Velvet]

Regina: Out of curiosity, since you're so keen on telling all of us that we're wrong... Who died and made you Right? Did your eruption make you the ultimate authority? Did it suddenly flood your brain with all the answers to all of the universe's potential questions?

If so, by all means, continue "enlightening" us in your ever-so-delightful little way. Otherwise, maybe you should review some more data and re-arrange some digits until the answer is "yes."

You've started yet another idiotic "Science vs. Religion" debate in yet another unrelated thread. If you want to talk about it that badly, make your own.

[Regina Newcastle]

The answer to your second question is "yes". Now stop bothering me.

[Ptesan-Wi]

Ms. Newcastle,

I'm somewhat curious as to why you think that I would be teaching a child things equivalent to sun-devouring/vomiting gods and the like. The closest guess I can make is that you took the term "phejúta winyela" to mean a spirit or god of some sort. It is not.

A phejúta winyela is, roughly translated, a medicine woman. She is not merely a spiritual guide, but also a doctor, a philosopher, a wise woman, and a half-dozen other things besides... with one of those things being a "seer".

Now, you may like to dismiss the very idea of a seer. However, there's no shortage of novas who have such a gift. Why then is it so unthinkable as to believe that some baselines have a similar gift - perhaps not as often or as powerful as our own, but there nonetheless?

The phejúta winyela saw that I will someday have children. Based on her track record, I choose to believe her. If you do not, that's certainly your choice... but I suspect you would be wrong.

As for your post immediately above this one: it amounts to a claim to omniscience, that your eruption did "suddenly flood your brain with all the answers to all of the universe's potential questions". If that is your claim, then please excuse me while I chuckle at your obsession with the mote in my eye... and if you don't mind, let me have that log in your own for my campfire.

[Regina Newcastle]

Ms. Ptesan-Wi,

I think you read a bit much into what I said. My post above was a dismissive comment directed at someone who apparently couldn't be buggered to pass high school Biology or Critical Thinking courses. It remains, however, too close to truth for my own comfort.

Now. Humour me; is your phejúta winyela a nova? If so, then I apologize for the misunderstanding. I am familiar with that title only in terms of your cultural legends, and in that context, your "seer" has little more than a chance possibility of predicting anything, accounting for the very real possibility - probability, even - that she has privileged information about you, personally, and is in a position to make an educated guess. If your advisor is a nova, it is also highly likely that she may possess some ability to divine that information, but that is a result of quantum biology, not divinity. She is no more a "seer" in the mystical sense of the word than Wakinyan is a "god"; both are merely labels people append to things they either cannot fully understand or (as I sometimes do) to refer to a thing in terms of easily-understood metaphors. I could say, for example, that all novas are "gods" and be entirely serious, but it would be a sloppy and immensely artistic use of the language.

As to the possibility that your counselor could have some latent nodal activity or possess some heretofore unknown gift, well, that's acceptable. I am willing to entertain the idea, but such a claim demands some form of evidence if you expect to bypass any form of scrutiny. When confronted with such a claim, I first tend to implement Hume's maxim: "No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavours to establish." In short, which is genuinely more likely: that this woman has mystical powers or that she is simply very skilled at reading people, making educated conclusions, and that people tend to forget her 'misses' while exaggerating her 'hits'?

As I said, I have no doubt that you will raise fine children. You seem eager to be a mother and you seem intelligent enough to raise children with a sense of moral duty. I so wish you could leave the fairy tales out, though. When presented as stories, these tales delight, and illustrate important principles about life. When taken literally, they form the foundations of an incomplete and warped view of reality. I am of the mind that the most important thing we have is truth, and I lament to see her shamed so.

[z-Silvestru]

Quote:

Originally posted by Revenant:
Seven or eight? Shit. Unless you have beer flavored nipples, lose my number.

Hey, Warren, maybe you should try reading what I wrote. I'm sterile. I can't have one, much less as many as I wanted.

And if you meant it as a joke, then just don't joke about this. It was very important to me, and it's gone. You've lost important things, I know you have, so just don't, ok?

[Ptesan-Wi]

Ms. Newcastle,

I'm not entirely certain how to explain this to you in a manner that will be understood. Still, I will try.

First, I specifically stated that one of the reasons that I have some degree of trust in the predictions made by the phejúta winyela is her track record. As far as I am aware, she is not a nova; I have never had reason to ask (and due to a fluke of my own evolution, cannot merely try to "ping" for her theoretical node). But whether or not she is a nova had little bearing on the situation; her prognostications for both myself and other members of the tribe have proven rather reliable, and whether the source of her information is a detailed understanding of us as individuals or a quantum power or a pre-quantum ability or something entirely different is beside the point.

As for what I may or may not teach my children, the simple fact is that it is a decision to be made by my mate and myself. When last I checked, I had not chosen to submit to a technocracy, and did not hand over my future and that of my children to self-appointed guardians of scientific purity.

That said, I am a Terat. If you believe that I will teach my children the legends of the Lakota people as a literal truth rather than as metaphor for the integration of both homo sapiens sapiens and homo sapiens novus within the world and universe at large, you are sorely mistaken. But I do not cling, as some of our kind do, to the notion that we are perched at the top of the sentience pyramid with nothing above us. I cannot prove that there is something greater... but neither can I disprove it, and it strikes me as arrogance of a disturbingly baseline sort to assume that we are the zenith of intelligence on this world or in the universe as a whole.

[Sandcaster]

I would point out, Ptesan-Wi, that while you did not "hand over [your] future and that of [your] children to self-appointed guardians of scientific purity", your allegiance to the Teragen has effectively done so to self-appointed guardians of racial purity (inasmuch as the Teragen declares novas to be a separate race, and takes rather extreme actions to separate novas from baselines).

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
I could say, for example, that all novas are "gods" and be entirely serious, but it would be a sloppy and immensely artistic use of the language.

Hey there, Sweetcheeks. You give me a little time and I'll have you believing in God Almighty soon enough.

[Mithril]

Lemmy: Get in line.

[Matryoshka]

Quote:

Originally posted by Trooper:

S. Mallory: That sounded like the world's most depressing Hallmark card.

One L in my last name. S.Mallory refers to someone I truly hate. No, don't ask. Two, life is not about happy ending and sunshine. If we look at it in long enough terms we will die.

[Mithril]

Quote:

Originally posted by Signy Malory:
life is not about happy ending and sunshine. If we look at it in long enough terms we will die.

Speak for yourself. I plan to live forever.

[Titan A9F]

Me too. I think its the metal talking. Hard to picture old age and ahlzheimers when you're osmium.

[Hugin]

Procreating is an interesting concept. Especially now that I have the option of being father or mother. Or, if I was feeling selfish, both.

[Matryoshka]

Quote:

Originally posted by Girl Made of Titanium:

Quote:

Originally posted by Signy Malory:
life is not about happy ending and sunshine. If we look at it in long enough terms we will die.

Speak for yourself. I plan to live forever.

Plan all you want. you may live for a long time. You might out live our sun but one day will die. You may well end your own life out of boredom.

[Y.T.]

Children are not likely in my future. I am not willing to take such a risk.

[Velvet]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
The answer to your second question is "yes". Now stop bothering me.

...Followed by more indirect insults in reply to others.

First, I don't care. Talk about my education all you want- it won't bug me. I quit high school to join the real world, and haven't suffered any lingering damage except to my reputation... And that's beyond saving, anyway. Education and intelligence aren't the same thing, and I don't see any reason to base a person's worth on the former.

Second, you hijacked this thread. Expect to get comments about it, and expect to have to deal with it.

Third... All that being said, you're an entertaining, acerbic little wench. It'll be interesting to see if you do finally crumble under the weight of your own hubris. You've got a lot to learn. Maybe you should take a page from GMoT's book and go find out, mm? Good luck, doll.

[Mithril]

Quote:

Originally posted by Velvet:
You've got a lot to learn. Maybe you should take a page from GMoT's book and go find out, mm?

Ironically enough, I am visiting Regina right now, to learn more about her point of view.

[Velvet]

Quote:

Originally posted by Girl Made of Titanium:
Ironically enough, I am visiting Regina right now, to learn more about her point of view.

Take her with you when you go? Good luck with that, by the way. I'd invite you to Chicago, but I'm going to be in Rio for the next week or so.

[Mithril]

You're going to Rio? I just left Rio. God dang it. All the good stuff happens as soon as I leave town. That's just my luck.

Say hi to Flicker for me.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ptesan-Wi:
As far as I am aware, she is not a nova...

I gathered as much, Ms. Ptesan-Wi. I was simply elaborating on the potential of such an idea.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ptesan-Wi:
...is beside the point.

For you, perhaps, but not for me.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ptesan-Wi:
As for what I may or may not teach my children, the simple fact is that it is a decision to be made by my mate and myself.

Of that there can be little doubt. I am merely attempting to persuade you - and those like you - otherwise. Sometimes my vitriol gets in the way of that ultimate end, and I'm sorry.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ptesan-Wi:
...self-appointed guardians of scientific purity.

Please, stop using that word. You profane it.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ptesan-Wi:
I do not cling, as some of our kind do, to the notion that we are perched at the top of the sentience pyramid with nothing above us. I cannot prove that there is something greater... but neither can I disprove it, and it strikes me as arrogance of a disturbingly baseline sort to assume that we are the zenith of intelligence on this world or in the universe as a whole.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume as such until there is evidence to the contrary or even the barest shred of data to support such an idea. I dare say it is even likely that such a being exists somewhere in the universe and possibly even on this planet, but until there is some form of evidence as such, it remains firmly in the realm of conjecture, no more real than Bertrand Russell's china teapot orbiting the sun.

Quote:

Originally posted by Velvet:
First, I don't care. Talk about my education all you want- it won't bug me. I quit high school to join the real world, and haven't suffered any lingering damage except to my reputation... And that's beyond saving, anyway. Education and intelligence aren't the same thing, and I don't see any reason to base a person's worth on the former.

Would that be the same "real world" where you became a drug addict and professional trollop, or the "real world" where you erupted at the age of sixteen into one of the most beautiful women in the world? Spare me your sob story; most of us did not have a fantasy childhood, and certainly not me.
It's true that education and intelligence aren't the same thing, but as anyone who isn't compensating for a wasted youth and desperately clutching at straws of credibility might tell you, they do largely tend to correlate.

Quote:

Originally posted by Velvet:
Third... All that being said, you're an entertaining, acerbic little wench. It'll be interesting to see if you do finally crumble under the weight of your own hubris. You've got a lot to learn. Maybe you should take a page from GMoT's book and go find out, mm? Good luck, doll.

Rather predictably, you're playing the "I'm so worldly" veiled insult card. That's just fine. You also can't tell the difference between hubris and a simple sense of security in self.

You probably insist on being called a "dancer".

[Trooper]

There are a lot of different opinions here. Nice place. I think I'll enjoy hanging out.

[Velvet]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
Would that be the same "real world" where you became a drug addict and professional trollop, or the "real world" where you erupted at the age of sixteen into one of the most beautiful women in the world? Spare me your sob story; most of us did not have a fantasy childhood, and certainly not me.
It's true that education and intelligence aren't the same thing, but as anyone who isn't compensating for a wasted youth and desperately clutching at straws of credibility might tell you, they do largely tend to correlate.

Rather predictably, you're playing the "I'm so worldly" veiled insult card. That's just fine. You also can't tell the difference between hubris and a simple sense of security in self.

You probably insist on being called a "dancer".

Keep trying. Eventually, you'll say something that really bothers me. As I said... Dicussing my education isn't one of those things, and anyone who's spoken to me can vouch for the fact that I don't make a secret of what I do or what I've done, so my past isn't one of those things, either. Save your typing, and your venom, for someone who cares. I just think it's pathetic to go around telling people what is and isn't true, when you've no more a connection to any "great truths" than anyone else. We aren't going to agree, and I have a strong suspicion you're not going to "convert" anyone. People who feel the same way you do don't need the persuasion, and people who don't think you're impossibly arrogant. Deal.

Oh, and Regina? Yes. I do know what hubris is, and no, I don't insist on being called a dancer. Hope that clarifies things for you.

[Gypsy]

My,my,my. I hear people yelling at people's deaf ears.

Now on to the topic. Sure, we need them. We need them for many things, but many because I would like to think that if I had a child I would be letting the world have a person who is better than me. True she would not be me, and I would not own her. I just would help her along the way and I know the world would be a better place because of her. Yes, I will have a daughter.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Velvet:
Dicussing my education isn't one of those things, and anyone who's spoken to me can vouch for the fact that I don't make a secret of what I do or what I've done, so my past isn't one of those things, either. ... I just think it's pathetic to go around telling people what is and isn't true, when you've no more a connection to any "great truths" than anyone else.

What makes you think I don't? The fact that I think you're a benighted imbecile, something you've all but confessed to? Do you have anything to back that assertion aside from your own dislike for me? Please, lay bare the inner workings of my mind.

Quote:

Originally posted by Velvet:
I have a strong suspicion you're not going to "convert" anyone. People who feel the same way you do don't need the persuasion, and people who don't think you're impossibly arrogant.

You've never read Sherlock Holmes, have you? Big surprise, there.

Quote:

Originally posted by Velvet:
Oh, and Regina? Yes. I do know what hubris is, and no, I don't insist on being called a dancer. Hope that clarifies things for you.

In the unlikely event that you became familiar with the concept of hubris through studying Greek tragedy and not because someone used it in reference to your extrme, pathetic, and totally unjustified arrogance, perhaps you're also familiar with the sister concepts of 'hamartia' and 'nemesis'. Just consider me the latter.

[Cassandra Foster]

Quote:

...perhaps you're also familiar with the sister concepts of 'hamartia' and 'nemesis'. Just consider me the latter.

How remarkably... four-color.

And yes, this comment comes from someone who used to wear a cape and a mask.

[Long]

Be careful who you insult and say you're the nemesis of, Regina. You will find Velvet has may friends that do not take kindly to certain things.

[Y.T.]

Regina, I will say this one time and one time only. I enjoy having Velvet alive in this world, I do not enjoy you. You harm a hair on her head, and the vengeance that shall be laid upon your door will leave stains longer and darker than the stain you have made upon this world.

[Velvet]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
Blah, blah, blah.

Sorry, love, just can't be bothered to pick through all the bluster for anything notable, so I'll leave you with this. I assure you that you don't want me to "lay bare" anything in your mind. I'm more than capable of doing so, in living color and full sensory "stereo," and even now I'm not given to threats so please, assume that it's merely a statement of fact until you desire that I offer you a demonstration.

The next time you talk about "unjustified arrogance" look in a mirror. You have the nerve to sit here, tell all of us we're wrong because "you say so," when the fact is you don't have all the answers... If you did, you'd have better things to do with your time than troll for attention here, in a thread about children. You want to talk to me, send me a PM. Otherwise, I'm going to ignore you and treat you like the under-the-bridge dweller you're rapidly becoming.

[Doctor Nova Madigan]

Quote:

Originally posted by Y.T.:
Regina, I will say this one time and one time only. I enjoy having Velvet alive in this world, I do not enjoy you. You harm a hair on her head, and the vengeance that shall be laid upon your door will leave stains longer and darker than the stain you have made upon this world.

Nobody was suggesting violence until you brought it up, dumbfuck.

[Y.T.]

Flicker, you do not threaten people with words like nemesis and not mean to do harm.

[Doctor Nova Madigan]

She's a bookworm, you goof. What's she going to do, knowledge you to death? Chill out, soldier.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Long:
Veiled empty threats.

Are you threatening me, Msr. Long? More to the point, are you insinuating that Mm. Velvet cannot defend herself from the harsh words of a chubby graduate student? I feel somewhat insulted, but mostly it's for her.

Quote:

Originally posted by Y.T.:
Plainly empty threats.

Insulting you would be too easily, so instead, I'm simply going to laugh and exercise my 'scroll down' key.

Quote:

Originally posted by Velvet:
Vaguely sapphic empty threats.

Yes, yes, that's lovely. And would you care for a display of what I can do? Please, I think you're an idiot, but I'm not going to resort to childish threats of using my "powers" on you. Spare me your braggadaccio; I genuinely hope neither one of us actually wants to bring harm to the other over an intellectual disagreement.

Quote:

Originally posted by Velvet:
The next time you talk about "unjustified arrogance" look in a mirror. You have the nerve to sit here, tell all of us we're wrong because "you say so," when the fact is you don't have all the answers...

I never said I had all the answers. I might have glibly said something to the effect, but your inability to distinguish sarcasm or exaggeration is not my concern. What I will assert plainly is that I've done more research and though more on the nature of these questions than most, am more educated regarding the issues at hand than most, am empirically more intelligent than most (not a statement of arrogance, but something that can be measured, so save me your objections), and consequently, am in a more suitable position to make assertions about the subject at hand than you are. I'm sorry if you bristle at that, but it is the truth, in the same way that a physics professor is better equipped to teach primary school arithmetic than a bag boy at Wawa.

And honestly, "better things to do with (my) time"? This is just something for my fingers to do, Mm. Velvet, while the bulk of my grey matter contemplates the answers to questions you aren't even educated enough to ask.

[Velvet]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
This is just something for my fingers to do, Mm. Velvet, while the bulk of my grey matter contemplates the answers to questions you aren't even educated enough to ask.

Rather presumptuous of you. Maybe if you visit the States one day, you'll allow me to show you the difference between the way I use my brain and the way you use yours. And, no, there's no sapphic overtone there. I'm in a house full of women, currently, and in no need of any more.

[Leliel]

I am assuming that Regina meant Nemesis in a philosophical sense, not physical.

[Loge]

I've already had my kids. I didn't plan on having any more anyway. Of course I didn't plan on erupting into a nova either. Life has a funny sense of humor I guess so one of these days I may get that call that every guy in North America dreads;

"Hi honey. I'm LATE"

[z-Carver]

Me. I don't need kids. I like my life the way it is.

[Jordan]

I cherish my children. I have 7. Each and every one of them brings a joy to my life that cannot be described in words accurately.

[Timeslip]

Children are, quite simply, the hope of our race. It is a hope that dwindled in the face of the news that so many of us are sterile, but a hope it still remains... and for good reason. Those who did this to us were resourceful; so are we.

[Loge]

Meh. Conspiracy is easy to see when you want to. It all turns into mist when it comes time to plop some proof down on the table.

So is it the Illumanati that sterilizes novas by creeping into their homes at night? Or Project Utopia?