opnet [OpNet] Kids, Who Needs Em?

[Trooper]

I've never liked children. They're needy and annoying. They can't carry a good conversation and their taste in food is atrocious.

So, when I found out a couple years ago that I was sterile I couldn't have cared less. Some people are less blase about it.

So, since this is forum for discussing things I thought I'd ask: Do you care if you're one of the many novas that are firing blanks?

[Velvet]

For my own part? No. I don't have room in my life for children, and even well before my eruption I couldn't have them, so I don't feel I've lost anything.

That being said, I've met a lot of novas who wish they could have a kid or two. Some would be great parents, and some (like entire populations of trailer parks and slums across the country) should just never be allowed to breed.

[Cosmic Comet]

At one point I did consider having children, but that all changed with my eruption and the fact that I lost my girlfriend at the same time.

I do hope that there are other Nova's out there that can and want to have children. It would be go to see that we can continue as a people.

[Wakinyan]

I look forward to the day.

[Regina Newcastle]

I don't feel any sort of maternal instinct, at present, but recognising that the future of our race lie in the ability to reproduce, if I was capable of it and found an acceptable specimen with which to mate, I would do so.

[Velvet]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
...if I was capable of it and found an acceptable specimen with which to mate, I would do so.

Oh, doll... There's so much more fun to be had than just "mating" for procreative purposes. You make it sound so sterile (pardon the term) and hygienic.

[Doctor Nova Madigan]

Med school, space exploration, the occasional humanitarian mission into a warzone. . . who has the time?

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Velvet:
Oh, doll... There's so much more fun to be had than just "mating" for procreative purposes. You make it sound so sterile (pardon the term) and hygienic.

It isn't that I don't enjoy the thought of shagging as much as anyone else, but we're not talking about expressions of romantic love or even animal lust. What we're talking about is procreation, and if the man I loved happened to be sterile or, say, if I was in love with a woman, my sense of duty about continuing our species would compel me to nevertheless seek out a superior genetic donor with which to do so.

[GDP_ST]

I would like to have children at some point. When I she was with me, my wife and I were working on our first.

Sadly, random chance intervened, as it does.

I am confident that, sooner or later, I will meet another woman who I can see as mother to my children. But it will be an act of love, affection and passion, not simply for the sake of breeding. That's my personal philosophy on these matters, not a judgement on those who think differently.

[Titan A9F]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
... seek out a superior genetic donor with which to do so.

It's kind of reassuring you'd take the time to locate a suitable human being instead of making something out of spare parts to do the deed.

Being made of organic osmium alloy puts a dampener on the usual events of meet at the club then screw like bunnies. Its not impossible. I have all the original equipment plus the mods, but I usually need to get myself down in temperature first. Kids? Christ but I don't even want to think about what all that stuff would mean.

[Ptesan-Wi]

I am hopeful that I can have children. I have not been formally tested, but the phejúta winyela

seems confident that children are in my future. As for my mate, I believe that any doubts regarding his capabilities have been laid to rest.

That said, I'm not planning to try right now. I would like to spend at least a few more years with Wakinyan as a childless couple before starting down that road.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ptesan-Wi:
...the phejúta winyela
seems confident that children are in my future.

Be serious.

[Cosmic Comet]

I believe she was serious Ms Newcastle. I don't see the point in mocking her beliefs at all.

[kestrel404]

Propagation of the species is the primary purpose of our existence. It's one of the few things that both science and religion tend to agree on.

More importantly, having and raising children is the most fulfilling aspect of one's life, and I pity all those who choose not to become a parent, or at least a surrogate parrent.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cosmic Comet:
I believe she was serious Ms Newcastle. I don't see the point in mocking her beliefs at all.

It isn't mockery. Her "beliefs" are fallacious, wrong-headed, and it makes me physically ill to think she or anybody might pass on that rubbish to a child too young to defend itself.

Doubtless, this is your cue to tell me she has a right to her beliefs and to raise her child however she likes. Perhaps, then, you'd like to draw the line for me, as to what is proper for a person to believe and teach their child and what is not okay to believe and teach their child. Would you be so cavalier about defending Ms. Ptesan-Wi if she was a Holocaust Revisionist? A Ptolymistic Astronomer? A member of the Church of Michael Archangel? Or the Ku Klux Klan? Or the Taliban? At what point does it stop being "passing on cherished values" and become poisonous?

I'm sorry. Not for the way I feel, but for the lack of restraint I choose to show in expressing those feelings. Adults lying to children make me very, very angry.

[Regina Newcastle]

((OOC: Double post, sorry. ))

[Cosmic Comet]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:

Doubtless, this is your cue to tell me she has a right to her beliefs and to raise her child however she likes. Perhaps, then, you'd like to draw the line for me, as to what is proper for a person to believe and teach their child and what is not okay to believe and teach their child. Would you be so cavalier about defending Ms. Ptesan-Wi if she was a Holocaust Revisionist? A Ptolymistic Astronomer? A member of the Church of Michael Archangel? Or the Ku Klux Klan? Or the Taliban? At what point does it stop being "passing on cherished values" and become poisonous?

I can't tell you where to draw the line. Each person has to make that call themselves, and yes even if her children turned out completely different I would still think she deserved the chance to raise a child.

[kestrel404]

It's interesting, Ms. Newcastle, that you dismiss her beliefs so quickly. She claims to speak with anima (object, concept & animal spirits), and you claim that this is impossible. Well, I claim that I can look at someone and see whether or not they have a tumor. Is that impossible as well? Perhaps Pax's ability to fly should be called into question as well?

The manner of our expressions tend to be unique and often mysterious, as I'm sure you can understand. If she chooses to percieve her ability as translated through native american mythology and that works for her, can you truly say that she is 'wrongheaded' and 'fallacious'?

[z-Silvestru]

I would have like to have children. I wanted seven or eight, at least. I like kids, needless to say.

But it is not to be.

[GDP_ST]

Regina,

If the child is raised honestly with an open mind, regardless of the belief system of the parents, then when he or she comes to the stage when we all make decisions for ourselves the child will question.

I have ultimate faith in Ptesan-Wi that she would not raise a blinkered bigot who only has one view of the world. I also believe that her belief and spiritualism will strengthen the child's belief in itself.

Just my two pence

[Titan A9F]

She deserves the chance to have a kid just because we don't tell anyone else they can't one. I have no idea what her beliefs are but how bad can it be.

[Titan A9F]

I'm off work for a couple of days so I had some time to think about this stuff and do some checking on the opnet. What I find is Ptesan's got herself a mac daddy that looks like something out of a story book. Same guy that rumbled in Chicago earlier in the year. She's also something big in the religion of some tribe out west. Buffalo woman, whatever that means. There's a bunch more stuff like that you can find on blogs and an american indians study site.

About this time I'm thinking Newcastle's got a point about raising kids right but then it hits me. I'm made out of metal. I got no heartbeat or brainwave they could find at the Rashoud. I can lift big things without breaking them and I know, I know, the stuff should crumble in my hands before I ever get it off its foundations. So it seems to me there's more to life than number crunching. I don't if that's a spiritual thing or not but the numbers just don't add up. Not when it comes to novas. So if Ptesan says the future spoke to her and she's going to have kids, I think it'd be smarter to just say congratulations and pass on some diaper coupons.

Just my opinion.

[Matryoshka]

I have given birth too three children, Two of them are dead now, the last one is working with people who I think are holding us back. I can say that having children is one of the most painful things you could ever think of. They will tear your heart out, and do things that you will never understand. I can only think of one fate worse than that, not having them.

[Velvet]

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
...and it makes me physically ill to think she or anybody might pass on that rubbish to a child too young to defend itself.

First, you assume it's rubbish simply because it doesn't fit your admittedly narrow world view. "If there isn't a theory with an unpronounceable name attached to it, it must not be true." Or, at least, that's the impression you're giving off. Hell, for 2.5 months I lived with a nova who might as well be the avatar of death. He can see a person's soul, and drain them of it as he sees fit. Do I know this empirically? No. But I also know that I have no reason to doubt that he's correct. After all, we're all our own dreams and fears made manifest.

There's an entire world of mystery out there, Ms. Newcastle, and I weep for the future generations deprived of fantastic discoveries and wonderful dreams because "science" has no room for them.

[Sandcaster]

At some point in the future, I expect that Stormwarden and I will adopt. There are far too many children out there in desperate need of a loving home, and we have far too much to give to not do so.

[Warren Verona]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandcaster:
At some point in the future, I expect that Stormwarden and I will adopt. There are far too many children out there in desperate need of a loving home, and we have far too much to give to not do so.

I'll bet lady. I'll bet. Just keep the top drawer locked.

[Titan A9F]

Because... ?

[Good Alice]

Quote:

Originally posted by Velvet:

Quote:

Originally posted by Regina Newcastle:
...and it makes me physically ill to think she or anybody might pass on that rubbish to a child too young to defend itself.

First, you assume it's rubbish simply because it doesn't fit your admittedly narrow world view. "If there isn't a theory with an unpronounceable name attached to it, it must not be true." Or, at least, that's the impression you're giving off. Hell, for 2.5 months I lived with a nova who might as well be the avatar of death. He can see a person's soul, and drain them of it as he sees fit. Do I know this empirically? No. But I also know that I have no reason to doubt that he's correct. After all, we're all our own dreams and fears made manifest.

There's an entire world of mystery out there, Ms. Newcastle, and I weep for the future generations deprived of fantastic discoveries and wonderful dreams because "science" has no room for them.

She will not believe in anything that she doesn't wish to. She will claim that people who do not think like her are wrong. She is rebelling against blind faith by having nothing but it. In other word do not try to talk to religion or faith, cause she is always right and you are always wrong.

[Doctor Nova Madigan]

Quote:

Originally posted by Good Alice:
She will claim that people who do not think like her are wrong.

That's the flip side of "being right."

[Titan A9F]

Quote:

Originally posted by Flicker:
That's the flip side of "being right."

What's your point?

[Doctor Nova Madigan]

My point is that Ms. Newcastle is right. I thought I had made myself plain.

By the way, welcome to the forum. It's good to have more novas around.

[Wakinyan]

So Regina is right, Ptesan-Wi and I are wrong for wanting to even consider passing along traditions and customs? We shall be 'poisoning' the minds of any offspring we may have one day?

[Doctor Nova Madigan]

Depends on the tradition and custom, I'd say. If you're passing along ideas like "justice" or "kindness" or "fairness," then I'm all for it, and I'll gladly help you inculcate those values.

If you start talking about invisible sky buddies who never intervene in mortal affairs yet somehow have a stake in our lives and the way we act, then yeah, I'm afraid we have issues.

I got burned badly by my Catholic upbringing, and I wouldn't wish that sort of thing, or anything similar, on anyone else.

(Thanks for the pizza, btw. I love pepperoni and mushroom. You know that despite philosophical differences we're still friends, right?)

[Trooper]

Lot's of interesting things being said.

R. Newcastle and Flicker: Lemme guess, short-tempered atheists that hate Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Well, I can get behind the whole atheist thing. I've seen to many guys blown to smithereens while praying to one deity or another and I've not yet seen him/her/it show up and save someone. If there is a God he's a sick sort of voyeur.

Sylvan: Seven or eight? Catholic or Mormon?

S. Mallory: That sounded like the world's most depressing Hallmark card.

[z-Silvestru]

Quote:

Originally posted by Trooper:
[QB]Sylvan: Seven or eight? Catholic or Mormon?
[QB]

Neither. I just love kids. I came from a huge family (six brothers!) and I'm comfortable in that setting. My background is a Pentacostal-Baptist mixture, but the large family thing is more a farmer thing than anything else.

[Titan A9F]

Quote:

Originally posted by Flicker:
My point is that Ms. Newcastle is right. I thought I had made myself plain.

All I got reading it and even rereading it was right and wrong are opposite sides of the coin. Sorry.

I'm still taking a sit out on this one. Don't get me wrong. I don't believe in all the heathen shaman whatever stuff but it's like I said before. For all I know my hearts a chunk of muscle in a metal coffin. But I'm still walking and talking. Something more than the usual science stuff is going on.

Quote:

Originally posted by Flicker:
By the way, welcome to the forum. It's good to have more novas around.

Thanks. There's a lot of famous and infamous novas hanging around here. I figure to learn something. Eventually.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sylvan:
My background is a Pentacostal-Baptist mixture, but the large family thing is more a farmer thing than anything else.

Down in Georgia they still say its takes a town to raise a child. I guess that's about the same thing.

[Regina Newcastle]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cosmic Comet:
I can't tell you where to draw the line. Each person has to make that call themselves, and yes even if her children turned out completely different I would still think she deserved the chance to raise a child.

And I respectfully disagree. Again, endlessly concerned with "rights" and possessing virtually no sense of what is "right".

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemist:
It's interesting, Ms. Newcastle, that you dismiss her beliefs so quickly. She claims to speak with anima (object, concept & animal spirits), and you claim that this is impossible. Well, I claim that I can look at someone and see whether or not they have a tumor. Is that impossible as well? Perhaps Pax's ability to fly should be called into question as well?

That's a weak argument. I don't claim that it's impoosible, I'm asserting that she has misunderstood a purely natural phenomenon. If someone were to tell me that sunset is the result of a great and angry god devouring the sun every evening only to vomit it up in the morning, I'd feel the same urge to correct them, and it wouldn't change the fact that the Earth revolves around the sun in orbital space, causing the phenomena that we call "day" and "night".

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchemist:
The manner of our expressions tend to be unique and often mysterious, as I'm sure you can understand. If she chooses to percieve her ability as translated through native american mythology and that works for her, can you truly say that she is 'wrongheaded' and 'fallacious'?

Yes, I can, because she chooses to exercise her rather profound power through the warped lens of her perception of the world. Each nova has the power to affect this world in radical and profound ways, and for that power to sit in the hands of someone who doesn't even have a firm grip on reality is a frightening prospect, indeed. Tell me how good you'd feel about her cherished beliefs if she was an Islamic fundamentalist who thought all infidels should be summarily sent to Allah.

Quote:

Originally posted by Procyon:
If the child is raised honestly with an open mind, regardless of the belief system of the parents, then when he or she comes to the stage when we all make decisions for ourselves the child will question.

I have ultimate faith in Ptesan-Wi that she would not raise a blinkered bigot who only has one view of the world. I also believe that her belief and spiritualism will strengthen the child's belief in itself.

I'm not callign Ms. Ptesan-Wi's parenting skills into question. I'm relatively certain - if her passion is any indication - that she will make a fine and loving mother, and to be clear, I would much rather see Ms. Ptesan-Wi as a mother than several others I could name.

Be careful in extolling the virtues of open-mindedness, Procyon. Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect; it is shameful to succumb too easily, or to the first comer. The minds of some are so open that any offal can simply fall in.

Quote:

Originally posted by Velvet:
First, you assume it's rubbish simply because it doesn't fit your admittedly narrow world view.

"Admittedly"? Pray, by whom? I don't recall ever calling my world view "narrow", nor do I feel it is. Furthermore, the nature of science is such that we do not deal with absolutes and are always in a process of reevaluating evidence and accepting new data for revue. As the eminent Stephen Jay Gould put it, "In science, 'proof' can only mean 'proven to such an extent that it would be perverse to withold provisional assent.'" That said, there are many things that have been so thoroughly debunked in the past that to entertain them again and again is both futile and a waste of time. Religion falls under this category. The fact that so many still subscribe to Bronze Age myths about the universe says nothing about the validity of those myths; reality is not a democracy.

Quote:

Originally posted by Velvet:
There's an entire world of mystery out there, Ms. Newcastle, and I weep for the future generations deprived of fantastic discoveries and wonderful dreams because "science" has no room for them.

And I weep for a future of benighted imbeciles so credulous they entertain whatever madness that one can propose.

You apparently understand virtually nothing of the scientific process. Please educate yourself before raising this issue again; I can't be bothered to waste my time typing information that could be readily found in any encyclopedia.

Quote:

Originally posted by Flicker:
That's the flip side of "being right."

Thank you for the disturbingly rare vote of sanity, Flicker.

Quote:

Originally posted by Wakinyan:
So Regina is right, Ptesan-Wi and I are wrong for wanting to even consider passing along traditions and customs? We shall be 'poisoning' the minds of any offspring we may have one day?

No, Wakinyan. That isn't what I'm saying. What I am saying is that culture and heritage are fine and good things; I appreciate my own cultural roots. But I also have a clear and rational view of what the world is. My mother's family came from Greece many, many generations back, but by no means do I feel as though I must pay homage to Athena to honor my heritage. They are fine stories, but that is all they are. If I tried to raise up my children to worship Ares and Eris, most would call me daft, and rightly so. Ares and Eris have retired to the pantheon of myth, where all gods belong. The fact that your people held on to their native beliefs longer than mine does nothing to attest to the validity of either.

Quote:

Originally posted by Trooper:
Lemme guess, short-tempered atheists that hate Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Well, I can get behind the whole atheist thing. I've seen to many guys blown to smithereens while praying to one deity or another and I've not yet seen him/her/it show up and save someone. If there is a God he's a sick sort of voyeur.

I don't "hate" Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, but I do think it's criminal to tell young children then exist. As representations of the holiday spirit, I have no problem with them, but I don't celebrate either holiday they're associated with, either.

On your final point we are in perfect accord. Or as the American author Samuel 'Mark Twain' Clemens put it, "If there is a God, he is a malign thug."

[Wakinyan]

Quote:

Originally posted by Flicker:
(Thanks for the pizza, btw. I love pepperoni and mushroom. You know that despite philosophical differences we're still friends, right?)

You are welcome. And sure, if you take into consideration I am trying to be exactly what you and people like Regina oppose then it is a matter of you tolerating me right not the other way around.

[GDP_ST]

It's a curious irony that the first Western 'scientists', as in the first people to explore the cosmos using the scientific method, were intensely religious individuals who wanted to take a closer look at what they saw as 'God's work'.

In short, religion and spirituality are not the same as ignorance and blinkered superstition. Sometimes they can provide impetus to know more.

That being said, when the ideals of conformity that accompany (primarily) monotheistic belief systems kick in, free thought and betterment of knowledge tends to go out of the window.

Like most things in life, it's a balancing act. Too much of one or the other, and you'll miss something.

[Neil Preston]

I have one child, a little girl, and she is wonderful. I would like more, but the final say in that is not mine to make.

*Note to self: No need to make reservations for St. Timothy's.*

One comment really reached out and touched me though (I am not going to step between my Brother and my Love unless asked).

Regina, you said that reality is not a democrcy. I would add to that "yet". I have seen so many impressive feat performed by novas that I've hypothosized what we could to as a concentrated group working toward one purpose. It is both a source of terrifying fear and endless hope.