Trinity RPG - EK and Bioware

[BlueNinja]

SkyLion brought this to my attention while building a character for my Trinity game, and I'm interested in getting opinions and observations from other Trinity players and GMs.

Using Interface with Technokinesis 3, an EK can control every operation of a small vehicle or a computer. Given a high Psi rating, they're actually better off interfacing with it using Psi than the regular way. If they bump it up to Technokinesis 5, then can get a car's automatic pilot to sing and dance.

Using Control and Electromanipulation 4, an EK can control one single system on a bioVARG. If thye bump it up to Electromanipulation 5, they can control a maximum of five systems. This makes sense if they're trying to control someone else's bioVARG, but what about an unused, unformatted one? Or one formatted to themselves?

The main thing I'm wondering - should an EK be able to control his own formatted bioware (like bioVARGs and such) at a lower rating of Electromanipulation than 4? It's obviously not going to resist, and since EKs are supposed to be on the leading edge of biotech research, it doesn't make sense to require all of the researchers to have at least four dots in Electromanipulation, given how few of them focus on one mode to that degree of exclusion.

[SkyLion]

Well I was the one that brought it up and it is my proposed character, but I do have a couple thoughts. 1. Biotech is bleeding edge but bio-VARGs are relatively new...nowhere near being exploited to their full potential. EK bioVARG pilots are about as common as Legionaires of the same, maybe a bit less. Thats not saying much though, since bio-VARGS are listed as few and elite, in the tech manual it calls them the best of the best.

,,

2nd regarding the mode...I agree that EM and TK are different modes for different things but it does make sense that Orgo-Teks should be able to interface at least as well with bio-tech as hardtech...in fact this is the revolution they are trying to bring about (amidst stiff competition no less...). My thought was that there should be an equivalent EM ability to "interface" with biotech that has the proper degree of sophistication (vehicle, computer etc.) at the same level as a hardtech Tek would...

,,

With bioware formatted its not so a question so much as "Of course EK would make you better...thats the point of the aptitude and the technology in the first place."

[Finbar]

1) Actually, I wouln't mess with a Teleporter bioVARG pilot, but that's me. Think of all that hardware blinking into and out of an infantry formation...

2) EK's should be mostly useless against a bioVARG (compared to a standard VARG) if they are using Technokinesis; strictly speaking, there isn't enough electronics to mess with (note that I'm not saying that there aren't any; just that the electronics are of a sufficiently different nature that it requires Electromanipulation to effect a bioVARG instead of a Technokinesis).

3) That said, if you're using the TPG Freeform rules, you could have the psion invest a temporary psi into the bioVARG, which would allow him to control it without needing to re-roll anything, and would give him effectively permanent contol of the bioVARG (until he decided to take back the point of psi, that is).

FR

[BlueNinja]

2) EK's should be mostly useless against a bioVARG (compared to a standard VARG) if they are using Technokinesis; strictly speaking, there isn't enough electronics to mess with (note that I'm not saying that there aren't any; just that the electronics are of a sufficiently different nature that it requires Electromanipulation to effect a bioVARG instead of a Technokinesis).

Yes, but it seems that they're not that useful against a bioVARG with Electromanipulation, either.

3) That said, if you're using the TPG Freeform rules, you could have the psion invest a temporary psi into the bioVARG, which would allow him to control it without needing to re-roll anything, and would give him effectively permanent contol of the bioVARG (until he decided to take back the point of psi, that is).

I wasn't planning on using them for online forum gaming (because of their complexity), but even if I allow that, it still doesn't address the point of why you need four dots in Electromanipulation to duplicate the effect of two dots in Technokinesis. They're supposed to be equivalent modes for working on biotech and hardtech, aren't they?

[SkyLion]

Personally I feel like all the modes are underdeveloped. What I have come up with on my own is to use the freeform guidlines for what is possible at each dot rating but rather than make it unnecessarily complex, use the standard rule of 0,1,2, or more psi depending on the power/level and then roll Psi (or Psi+whatever) with successes determining the outcome like normal.

,,

While this is the general problem (underdeveloped) it doesn't answer the question about dot levels. Again the simple solution is the best. If level 3 Tek allows Hardtech Control, Level 3 EM should allow bio tech control. Not only does it make rational sense but it keeps the modes balanced and puts Orgotek right where it should be as leaders in the "softech revolution."

[Finbar]

Points made, except that a bioVARG, past its obvious techno-nature, is an actual living, breathing creature, and as such is a tad bit more complex than a standard VARG (thus the formatting necessity, if nothing else). This gives it certain advantages and disadvantages over a normal VARG (such as possibly being affected by vitakinesis and biokinesis, but not telepathy (mindless, remember?)).

You got to keep in mind that, just because it looks like a VARG, it doesn't mean that it is the same as a VARG, and allowances need to be made for that. A bioVARG can be a pretty nifty piece of machinery, but it's a rather complex one because it is, after all, a living creature and needs to maintained as such, rather than as a regular piece of machinery.

FR

Oh, and to be a jerk: Orgotech is the leader in most tech, but not biotech. Strictly speaking, that's the Norca; Orgotek has made a lot of advances thanks to the info given by the Doyen (the similarities between the Scarabs and the Chromie ships has not endeared Orgotek to anyone), but the Norca have done a lot of interesting things with biotech, even rivalling the Qin, and they have that nifty ability that allows them to integrate biotech into themselves.

FR

[SkyLion]

Hmmm...regarding the Norca...I haven't fullt read through Terra Verde yet so I am inclined to believe you. However it was my understanding that Orgotek (via Cassles and Orgosoft subsidiary) pioneered biotech and it was also given to them by the Doyen. (who gave them all the biotech prom. chambers) Not to mention Orgotek is the leader in Bio computers (along with Alchemy, but they were a part of Orgosoft who went "rogue" and couldnt have gotten the leg up were it not for the parent company in the first place.)

,,

Regarding the actual use of items though, from an OOC game balance perspective, Electromanipulation mode should be as useful at 3 dots for controlling (vehicles, computer, etc...things made to be controlled) bioware as 3 dots of Tek is udeful for hardware. I kinda thought that was the point for having them be two modes under EK.

[Finbar]

1) Bear in mind that Orgotek's pioneering has been in technological adaptations of their own powers, just like the other orders. Also, most of their trademark products are based more on Doyen or Qin tech (like the Leviathans). Also, two of Orgotech's biggest competitors (Aris Armaments BioSystems Inc) are based in South America (Norca: We're good enough that we don't need to advertise).

2) At four dots, it is balanced. Bear in mind tha biotech is a lot more powerful than regular tech; just look at the advantages of a bioVARG compared to a normal VARG. Just the fact that a vitakinetic can heal a piece of biotech and that no psion can heal regular equipment makes it nastier. It makes sense that the power would be at a higher dot as well...

FR

[SkyLion]

1) Bear in mind that Orgotek's pioneering has been in technological adaptations of their own powers, just like the other orders. Also, most of their trademark products are based more on Doyen or Qin tech (like the Leviathans). Also, two of Orgotech's biggest competitors (Aris Armaments BioSystems Inc) are based in South America (Norca: We're good enough that we don't need to advertise).

2) At four dots, it is balanced. Bear in mind tha biotech is a lot more powerful than regular tech; just look at the advantages of a bioVARG compared to a normal VARG. Just the fact that a vitakinetic can heal a piece of biotech and that no psion can heal regular equipment makes it nastier. It makes sense that the power would be at a higher dot as well...

FR

,,

Hmmm...well I am no one to doubt the badassedness of the Norca ::unsure

,,,,

You may have a point for biotech but consider this....4 dots in EM lets you totally jack someone...thats a far cry from psionically linking up with a vehicle that was made to do so...

[Finbar]

You may have a point for biotech but consider this....4 dots in EM lets you totally jack someone...thats a far cry from psionically linking up with a vehicle that was made to do so...

So, what you are saying is a power that allows you to control what someone does (albeit just physically) shouldn't be a four-dot power, unlike the four-dot telepathic abilities?

The problem is that your concentrating on the fact that it's tech, not the origins of that tech; bear in mind that you need to be formatted to the bioVARG for those to work effectively. Also, if you're using Control, you're effectively bypassing those controls in favor of controlling it directly by its electrical impulses. So, I have no problem that it take a four-dot ability to do control something that requires three dots of tolerance...

FR

[SkyLion]

So, what you are saying is a power that allows you to control what someone does (albeit just physically) shouldn't be a four-dot power, unlike the four-dot telepathic abilities?

The problem is that your concentrating on the fact that it's tech, not the origins of that tech; bear in mind that you need to be formatted to the bioVARG for those to work effectively. Also, if you're using Control, you're effectively bypassing those controls in favor of controlling it directly by its electrical impulses. So, I have no problem that it take a four-dot ability to do control something that requires three dots of tolerance...

FR

,,

no I meant control should be a 4 level mode..all I was saying is there should be a level 3 mode for "interfacing" with biotech.

[Finbar]

For most bioware, definitely. But not for the more complex items such as bioVARGs. And I'd be willing to make some of the ships a five-dot ability...

TS

[SkyLion]

For most bioware, definitely. But not for the more complex items such as bioVARGs. And I'd be willing to make some of the ships a five-dot ability...

TS

okay, thats a possible point. But VARGs have an FT of 3 (Devices having a rating equal to their value). And once formatted the bioVARG is already described as "an extension of the wielder." Adding EK controlling abilities would make that even better. Now imagine a VARG customized for such EK interface...made to take full advantage of every bit of benefit that such an ability would offer...would it still take 4 dots of EM?

,,

It doesn't really matter to me on a personal level (Hey if I have to take 4 dots of EM to do what I want...kick ass! Although I really have the soft spot for Photokinesis...)

,,

I am interested on the academic level of balancing out the modes. In a way you have answered this since biotech is already superior (when formatted) to hardtech so there could be a discrepancy between the ease of use of the comparitively slow hardtech (biotech computers are usually 5 times faster than the best hardtech ones and in Trin thats really saying something!!!!)

,,

In fact....

,,

Since Pheonix doesn't want the Norca maybe playing a Norca pilot who melds with it would be better!!!!

Truly one with his Mecha!!! And it could still fit into my idea pefectly and would fit better into BNs conception of the starting characters backgrounds....

,,

I will have to think on this for a bit...

[Finbar]

1) Norca+bioVARGS: Don't botch. Just...just...don't botch.

2) bioVARG's and Control: The issue is more that you're bypassing the controls which is why I keep saying that building a special control interface won't work (if you're bypassing the controls, you're also bypassing any special interface as well). You're better off either just using putting in computer, putting in an AI, and using Interface, or using Control and investing a point of psi. Heh; Knight Rider 2122 ::blush ...

3) These are my VARG Build Rules; I based them off looking at how other VARGs were built. The only items not listed are the Baby WEAR and Baby TEAR; they add +2 to cost, and allow a teleporter with the appropriate ability to blink the bioVARG with him.

FR

[SkyLion]

Awesome! you need to do something about that background though...sheesh.

,,

Re: Interface

,,

The issue is more that you're bypassing the controls which is why I keep saying that building a special control interface won't work

Interface can "bypass the controls" or just enhance the normal use of whatever, especially vehicles. The reason for this is that the interfacing power is faster than eye-hand coordination/physical reaction time. Bio-Varg are formatted which means they act as part of the Psion. At four dots not only can you control the bioVARG better but can boost its attributes like a neuro-juicer (causing damage afterward...a good reason to buy Vitakinesis as an aux.)

,,

Hmm....Im thinking the level 4 BK power Control Biotech is just about what I am after....Sounds like defecting to the Norca is now a VERY strong possibility...

[Finbar]

Interface can "bypass the controls" or just enhance the normal use of whatever, especially vehicles. The reason for this is that the interfacing power is faster than eye-hand coordination/physical reaction time. Bio-Varg are formatted which means they act as part of the Psion. At four dots not only can you control the bioVARG better but can boost its attributes like a neuro-juicer (causing damage afterward...a good reason to buy Vitakinesis as an aux.)

Yeah, except that it requires the target to have electronics, which a bioVARG doesn't have (it has an actual nervous system; that's why it can be affeted by Control). That's why I suggested putting a hardtech computer with an AI interfacing with the bioVARG (which you can do, as it is possible to interface the two).

FR

[SkyLion]

and then interface with the VARG through the control system??? Hmmm...that could be the solution for the three dot idea. Would having 4 EM manipulation supercede those bonuses or add to them?

[Finbar]

[Ever get the idea that I've way too much fun with VARG's? It's not like I ran a teleporting engineer/bioVARG pilot or something... ::rolleyes ]

Here's your options: Either EM 4 for the bioVARG itself or TK 2 for the computer.

TK 2 allows you to run the bioVARG through the computer, and thus access any function that the computer can.

EM 4 is more direct, but you need EM 5 to use more than one system (shooting a laser would require an arm to aim, the laser to fire, and possibly locomtion to move into proper field of fire).

Also, of what bonuses do you speak? Greater skill/Psi allows more targets, longer durations, and more complex actions, but that's it, right?

FR

[SkyLion]

[Ever get the idea that I've way too much fun with VARG's? It's not like I ran a teleporting engineer/bioVARG pilot or something... ::rolleyes ]

Here's your options: Either EM 4 for the bioVARG itself or TK 2 for the computer.

TK 2 allows you to run the bioVARG through the computer, and thus access any function that the computer can.

EM 4 is more direct, but you need EM 5 to use more than one system (shooting a laser would require an arm to aim, the laser to fire, and possibly locomtion to move into proper field of fire).

Also, of what bonuses do you speak? Greater skill/Psi allows more targets, longer durations, and more complex actions, but that's it, right?

FR

Well BN said he would allow me to control the whole VARG if it was formatted with EM 4. Keep in mind that a BioVARG can have a BioComputer with a "true AI" (as a prototype device) If you werent careful it could go from "pilot VARG" to "Sentience Relations"! Which brings up another question...Do Teks have to have EM 4 to interface with their bioware computers??? I should think not, considering how superior biotech ones are (though still not too common)

,,

I think I may have solved it by using BK Psychomorphing 4 to Control Biotech...just emailed BN

,,

The bonuses I speak of are under the teknokinesis power "vehicle control" TPG pg 191. Psi roll successes add to any function of the vehicle up to a maximum of [wits] successes.

[Blue Thunder]

Your mistake is in assuming Technokinesis and Electromanipulation should be equal at every level.

Their powers are not mirror images of one another. The only thing the two Modes have in common is the fact that they both belong to Electromanipulation. There is no reason why they should have identical powers at every level. Electromanipulation deals with the bioelectric energy within living mass. Technokinesis deals with the electronic impulses found in inorganic electronics. If you're going to make Technokinesis and Electromanipulation "equal" then why leave Photokinesis out?

Some Modes are going to be better at certain things, and certain things are going to come more easily to others. Of course Technokinesis should get Interface at level 2; common sense tells you interfacing with electronics would be easier than interfacing with organic mass. You can use Electromanipulation to control organic mass...just at a higher level, and not with as much flair.

Also remember that Interface isn't as useful at level 2 as you make it sound. It upgrades as your Technokinesis Mode improves. And remember that Control also lets you affect people, animals, plants, and aliens in addition to biotech.

As for just "interfacing" with biotech but at a lower level, I have a biotech-related technique something like that. I'm including it in Implicate Order. I too felt that Electromanipulation didn't have enough bioware-related techniques, especially given Orgosoft Farm's focus. Here's what I have so far, but I might end up changing small details of it before I make it official. I actually created it months ago; looking at it now, I think I see a few things I should change...

(I'll post it right after this entry...apparently 6,000 words goes over the posting limit for one entry.)

* * * Bioware Amplification: Biotechnology is something studied by all Electromanipulation specialist under Orgotek. This power was created out of the desire to push personal bioware beyond its normal limits. By manipulating and altering the bioelectric flow within a formatted piece of bioware, the electrokinetic can enhance its capabilities for a temporary amount of time.

This technique is usually applied to weapons, armor, or spacecraft but some electrokinetics cannot resist trying this power on a wide variety of biotechnology. The electrokinetic should beware of using this power in experimentation though...there are stories of psions using this technique to experiment on their formatted bioaugmenters and then having the devices turn against them with sometimes fatal results.

System: Spend one point and roll Psi against the bioware's Tolerance rating (if it lacks a Tolerance rating, roll against a standard difficulty). This power can only affect biotechnology that has been formatted to you, and which you are touching or wearing. On a success the target bioware is enhanced for a number of turns equal to your successes, though you can end this enhancement at any time. On a tie, this enhancement lasts one turn. On a botch the bioware either attacks you, flees from you, is reduced in power, stops working for a scene, or some other effect created by the Storyteller based on the kind of biotech affected. After activating this power you no longer need to touch the affected bioware for the bonus to apply. The bonus only applies when you are using the bioware; others do not gain the bonus, unless they too are formatted to the affected bioware.

The form of the enhancement varies according to the bioware being affected. A +1 bonus can be applied to any one parameter of the biotech that is normally boosted from being formatted to you. So a formatted firearm that usually adds +2 to Accuracy and +1 to Damage for being formatted can add an additional +1 to either Accuracy or Damage while you're using Bioware Amplification. Likewise, vehicles and spacecraft can have their Handling increased or weapon Damage or Accuracy increased if those parameters are normally increased by formatting to the craft or one of its systems.

Formatted biotech armor can be enhanced by +1 to either Bashing or Lethal soak, but only if the armor has soak of that type. So Fiberweave (Trinity, pg. 268), which adds +1 soak to Lethal and no soak to Bashing, can only have it's Lethal soak increased.

As a downside, this power carries a risk. Some bioware simply will not respond favorably to this power, despite how many times electrokinetic scientists try. Biotech augmentation devices in particular will recoil from this power's effects. Any attempts to enhance a bioaugmenter, like an Electrokinesis Enhancement Suit (America Offline, pg. 119) or an Interface Augmentation Relay (Trinity, pg. 277) will cause you one level of Bashing damage, daze you for a number of turns equal to its Tolerance, and render the bioaugmenter useless for a number of days equal to your Psi. If you botch the Bioware Amplification roll on a bioaugmenter then you take Lethal damage equal to the bioaugmenter's Tolerance rating and the device is rendered completely useless and dies. Other powerful devices may also react negatively, and some devices simply gain nothing from this power. A formatted biowelder, for example, still performs like a normal biowelder when under this power's effects. And a Leviathan is simply far too complex to gain any kind of benefit. In the end it is the Storyteller who decides if exotic or unique bioware can be affected.

After the duration ends, the affected bioware receives a -1 penalty to the parameter that was enhanced as the bioware recovers energy. This penalty lasts as long as the enhancement does.

At four dots in Electromanipulation, the bonus can be increased to +2, but the device will then be unusable for twice as long as the enhancement lasted. At five dots in Electromanipulation the penalties are completely negated.

This technique isn't really "interfacing" with bioware. More like "amplifying" (as the technique's name suggests). I had to add the bit at the end about bioaugmenters because I knew that this power would be terribly powerful if a psion could boost his ESS suit or his WEAR or TEAR using it. So it just boosts the formatting bonuses already given (or the soak, if it's armor). Any other small bonuses can be left up to the Storyteller I guess.

Eh, I'll have to work on it a bit more before I finalize it...

And the book actually suggests that players invent new techniques. So if you want to make a power that let's you interface with biotech, go ahead...