Aberrant RPG - Stupid, weakling Abberants!

[pscion]

Actually, that's not quite true. I remember hearing about terrorist hijackings and suicide bombings on the news as a kid and wondering why they didn't just fly the planes into buildings. After all, I said, an airplane's basically the same thing as a missile. Of course, few people listen to little kids when it comes to national security more than a decade later, but to say that no one put together the pieces, I think would be stretching it. After all, if a little kid in the 1980s could figure it out, I'm sure others could have. ::tongue

O.k., I can't really state this strongly enough. Any chemical or biological weapons Saddam had were given to him by the CIA under the control of Bush Sr. specfically to deal with the threat from Iran. This is a fact. Look it up. Go ask someone who was with the CIA at the time. That's the reason everyone thought he had WMDs. Because we knew we gave him a bunch, and the production specs, and we couldn't account for all of them. However, the U.S. never allowed the U.N. inspectors to finish their jobs, which they were perservering at doing despite the difficulties. Without that, there was no way of knowing whether or not he still had the WMDs. However, I believe psicon's right in saying he would have bragged about having them and used 'em as a deterrant. He did that during the first Gulf War.

Anyhow, the point is that the Bushes as a family are just as responsible as Saddam, if not more so, for the mess in Iraq through the past 20-30 years.

Actually, not alot of Americans know (or remember) that the US did supply Saddam with those weapons.

I can claim that he would not have used Nukes because of the response from other nations. Using a nuke opens up a door you can never close. If he had them, he would have paraded them, but he knows the US would flattened his nation as he launched the first one at his close enemies.

Have you ever known someone with a lot to prove own a weapon? Whats the first thing they do when they get it? They tell everyone, they may never actually fire it, but they will make sure everyone knows they own it.

We would like to hope for the best in such tense situations, but lets be real. If the world hated me and I had nukes, I would have told everyone. Just having one is a threat, you don't even have to fire it. Just tap the sheathing and smile when your enemies look in your direction.

[archer]

2 mods have already mentioned the topic drift this thread is taking. Please, let the WMD/Saddam thing drop.

This is a perfectly good thread and discussion without the real-life politics. ::cool

[Sphere]

Threadrot antibiotics injected ::biggrin

No abbies were in China

Plenty of Novas erupted in China. In-fact the Elites book mentions their defensive missile network "The Poor Man's Wall" (or something), the entire net is run by a cyberkinetic in a heavily-protected bunker.

Let's not forget their National Defenders, the Exploding Heavenly Mandate (probably the best name of any super-group ::biggrin ).

I get the impression that the Chinese government tries to ensure any Nova that erupts within their country is forced to work for the government, or imprisoned. Some escape, or are rescued by T2M or the Terats.

China should theoretically have a high population of Novas due to it's massive population.

[Gideon]

Chinesse Nova Population: I agree that china has many errupting novas, but I also recall that in addition to people leaving CHina for greener pastures, and internal recruitment, the Underworld book refers to the criminal harvesting of MR nodes from newly errupted novas, as well as crime syndicates not only recuiting but experimenting on newly errupted novas. This seems to infer that many of the novas from china are being hunted and removed from the active population before they even learn the basics of their abilities.

[Alex Green]

RE: Saddam

Feel free to PM me.

RE: Chinese Novas

Lots of them are turned into Soma before or just after they erupt. Lots of them are killed and/or imprisoned by the gov. Many of them fled the country and joined nova shoot fighting leagues or became (cannon fodder) elites. My back of the envelope math says at least 1000 nova elites have to die to establish the ranks they have. On the run up to, and after, the war I doubt the Chinese government became less repressive to novas.

RE: Precognition

A good point, but there are several issues about this.

1) An easy way to deal with “casual” or “low level” precogs is to have the platform sit out there in orbit for 6 months before you use it. They’d see it coming, but by the time they do it’s too late to do anything but get ready to flee.

2) As it is written in the book, Precognition doesn’t self activate. If the stronger novas didn’t look for this, they wouldn’t have seen it.

3) As it is written in the book, Precognition might not have been all that useful in any case. The event of importance is all novas leaving the planet. Various novas see “that” coming, but “why” might be a total mystery because the threat is so removed. Keep in mind that Precognition tends to be pretty vague in the information it presents, visions, symbols, etc.

4) By that time presumably the Teragen’s big precog was dead or had fled because of internal politics. Project Proteus made a big deal about keeping all precogs under their thumb. Actually I’d assume that all the big organizations do something similar (recruit or neutralize). It isn’t unreasonable to assume that living Precogs were extremely rare by the time of the war, and the few that were still around worked for groups that didn’t mind the idea of novas being forced off the planet.

And all four of these points work together.

[Sphere]

Precognition and the War.

Mathmatician of the Teragen obviously had forseen the approaching war, but I get the feeling from what Geryon says in the Teragen book that no-one really listened to or believed him. Maybe it was because his precognition abilities are more statistical mapping than actually seeing the future. People just thought they could alter his predictions by their actions when, in fact, they doomed themselves and baseline/Nova relations.

There's no real indication of the number of precog Novas, and to be honest no real reason why there couldn't be a lot of them (it's not an expensive power to get). I don't personally allow it as a PC power in my game as it's bloody tough to roleplay. I've also restricted it to three separate Novas (Mathmatician, Delphi of T2M, and Sophia Rousseau).

But isn't it likely that some of the Novas who fight on the side of the baselines also possess this power. It's all well and good someone seeing the Ultimatum happening but quite another to stop it if some Omega Division Directive spook sees what you're going to do to destroy the network and acts to stop you.

Infinite standoff I guess. One of those Midnighter vrs Spiderman arguments.

[Alex Green]

There's no real indication of the number of precog Novas, and to be honest no real reason why there couldn't be a lot of them (it's not an expensive power to get). I don't personally allow it as a PC power in my game as it's bloody tough to roleplay. I've also restricted it to three separate Novas (Mathmatician, Delphi of T2M, and Sophia Rousseau).

I would include Argus on that short list btw.

It's not hard to erupt with, but it is hard to grow into. Very few novas are going to find it in theme unless their theme is "temporal manipulation".

And yes, it's definately one of those world shaking powers. ::crazy

I recall reading a book where one of the characters had it. She could do things like "don't bother questioning anyone in that division, if you do you'll find that none of them are the spy." "Stand to the left of the door, when he comes out he will turn right and his guard will be down and you'll shoot him in the back."

[pscion]

Speaking of Precognition -- I kills me how WW never thinks outside of the box sometimes. For such a unique company and fantastic writing, they seem to go blind when it comes to breaking the mold.

For instance, from day one, I hated Clairsentience, there was never a convenient time to ever use many of the powers, and Psychonav was just one power stretched into five.

I think that powers (from the TPG) such as Destiny should have been in the complete control of the ST. This solves tweo problems; 1) the PC doesn't have to waste Psi guessing when is a good time to look into the future beyond combat, and 2) it prevents the ST from having to tell the PC a crucial plot point.

Stay with me, imagine if the ST controlled the Destiny power? They could scribble notes and discreetly past it to the PC. Or they could ask the PC to join them away from the table to feed them more clues. Such "flashes of insight" should be random and highly uncontrollable. The psi should have no control over flashes from the future -- it is always on. As long as he has Psi to spend, the ST can roll in secret and give him clues when necessary.

Clairs can also be used to as assistant Storytellers, whenever the PCs get sidetracked or stumped for clues, the Clair can step in with magical insight and put them back on course.

That would have made the Clairsentience all the more effective and fun to play knowing that the ST is your secret ally.

And for the life of me, I do not know why Clairs were not given a Teleportation Mode from the start - it makes perfect sense that if I can see far, I should be able to translate my ass into psi and port over.

BTW - Just so I can remain on topic, Aberrants should have been able to use Precog to see the future. Happy now whiners? ::tongue

[gilgamesh2206]

The Aberrants may not have even wanted to stay ::wink . I know in the campaign we are playing my character (a warper) is already trying to persaude the Teragen into leaving earth and set, particularly after discovering that with a moderately successful maxing roll, Quantum 7 and Perception through the roof the warp distance that he could have managed would have almost got him out of the Milky Way with the right frame of reference. We're playing a Teragen chronicle and I know that Ethan is advocating leaving earth to the baselines and creating a nova society from a totally blank slate. The Marvels can easily be warped back down to earth - the Gods arriving from shimmering gateways is a great way to impress - and novas can build their own society in peace. Utopia has the resources to throw space open, there has to be a reason why it hasn't.

The novas may have just taken the threat of the missile platforms as the push they needed to get out once and for all, thus making it not a reaction of fear or weakness, but of strength to finally make that leap into the unknown.

[Alex Green]

The APG says (I think, book not here) that you need 14 succ to hit the next star (4.3 light years away), and Pluto is something like 11 and the moon is 7.

Warp is available with Q3.

With Q5 and Perception 5 you could get moon more often that not.

With Q5, Perception 5, and Mega-Perception 3, and Warp 3, you'd average

5 + 2 + 2.7 + 1.2 = 11 succ.

That's with someone pretty specialized for Warping, but not the theoretical max.

A powermax would add 2 more succ on average (or 13)... so, if he was lucky he could reach the next solar system on a powermax. But if might take him 3 tries before he made it.

If you are serious about other planets you need someone who can reach anything nearby (say 40 light years) without a powermax. The character previously mentioned could do it, but he presumably has Mastery and/or Q6+ and/or Lots of Mega-Perception.

A maxed character without Q6+, would be limited to Warp 5, Q5, Perception 5, Mega-Perception 5 and would average 13.5 succ. So he could reach the next star *sometimes*, but only somethimes. Chances are good the next star doesn't have any suitable planets.

[Sphere]

Although I realise that Terat membership goes up dramatically during the Aberrant War, we have to remember that the actual conflicts are not so much Nova vrs baseline as they are Nova vrs Nova.

Countless factions spring up all over the place. Cults of baselines flock to lone mega-socials who think themselves more divine than anything that "shallow pretender" Mal could aspire to. Mega-intelligent sphinxes who's intelligence at least equals Mal manipulate the world from behind a web of geopolitical influence. Then there are the Nova terror factions like the fundamentalists who seize Bahrain.

My point is that, by the end of the war, there are a substantial amount of "aberrants" who are not Terats, don't subscribe to Teragen philosophy, and would happily butcher the entire Teragen in it's sleep. There is no unity amongst the aberrants outside the One Race, and within it after the Night of Long Knives I imagine it'd be akin to being trapped in an exceedingly violent gang. Try to leave or alter it's murderous path and you'll get capped.

Nova group battles Nova group and causes mass destruction. Baselines try to contain the battles using conventional means and fail and fail and fail. Trinity historical records say that the Chinese forced the aberrants into exile with the threat of total annihilation.

Now. If we agree that Nova/Aberrants are not necessarily going to be worried about surviving in a nuclear wasteland. Why would they leave? Why go when they are winning? Why go when the Chinese threat is meaningless? Why would every faction agree to go? Surely Mal "dominating" them into going would be a breach of his own beliefs regarding Nova personal freedoms. If they want to try and survive a nuclear hellstorm then what right has he to stop them?

Mal: We must leave before this world is reduced to a smoking cinder.

Leviathan: Are you crazy? I'll just swim down deep and ride out the initial blasts then come back up and show the survivors what my Monster archetypes all about.

Mal: Umm.

Leviathan: It's my choice, I have to follow the path to evolution. I survive these nukes and I'm pretty sure I can trigger my next chrysalis. Maybe I'll meet you out there when I'm done eating Earth. Cool?

Mal: Well I....

::biggrin ::wink ::biggrin ::wink ::biggrin ::wink

[Alex Green]

Mal's power may be infinite but his tolerance for disagreement is not. Even ignoring the Mega-Socials involved (and Mal has 9 to 15 dots there), Mal gave an order. Therefore it will be carried out. You can disagree on how to carry it out, but not that it will be.

Mal is going to transfer everyone somewhere else. Leviathan could stay, if he's willing to give up being a Terat and being in Mal's presense.

And several people describe Mal's presense as addictive.

[pscion]

The APG says (I think, book not here) that you need 14 succ to hit the next star (4.3 light years away), and Pluto is something like 11 and the moon is 7.

Warp is available with Q3.

With Q5 and Perception 5 you could get moon more often that not.

With Q5, Perception 5, and Mega-Perception 3, and Warp 3, you'd average

5 + 2 + 2.7 + 1.2 = 11 succ.

That's with someone pretty specialized for Warping, but not the theoretical max.

A powermax would add 2 more succ on average (or 13)... so, if he was lucky he could reach the next solar system on a powermax.  But if might take him 3 tries before he made it.

If you are serious about other planets you need someone who can reach anything nearby (say 40 light years) without a powermax.  The character previously mentioned could do it, but he presumably has Mastery and/or Q6+ and/or Lots of Mega-Perception.

A maxed character without Q6+, would be limited to Warp 5, Q5, Perception 5, Mega-Perception 5 and would average 13.5 succ.  So he could reach the next star *sometimes*, but only somethimes.  Chances are good the next star doesn't have any suitable planets.

Yes, Alex, I am hunting you Try not to think of any Aberrant power from the storyline as perfectly broken down within the rules. Successes, dice and dots can't begin to cover Quantum powers and their effects. Storywise we can assume some pretty amazing things, even if the system can't possibly duplicate the effects. I do not think that any WW writer rolled dice to see if what he were writing was possible within the rules.

Anyways, gilgamesh2206, you made a point about them needing that final push. This seems plausible, but a little stretched, unless there were some reason why habitable planets were few and far between. or if WW simply said that Novas had found a planet for themselves, but had a hard time convincing others to follow until the War -- then that would make more sense.

From what I've heard so far I am a recent convert; Abbies cannot do anything, in fact they are rather pitiful when it comes to tackling problems on the macroscopic scale. I mean, the X-men would have atleast busted ass -- even Magneto was feared and all he had was one set of powers (BTW, he blocked punches and kicks by polarizing the iron in the blood of his opponents, deflecting their limbs away as they attacked).

Furthermore, this makes the psion's position all the more worrisome, the coming eradication of the psis is no surprise, why would the human race even want to trust more "superpeople" after dealing with a mess of them only a few decades before?

Trinity should be more like the Matrix/Shadowrun/Bladerunner/Mage with psis using their effects in secret to assist a frightened humanity who would surely execute them on sight. Psis should basically become hunted like Jedi LOL ::laugh

[Ayre el KaBeer]

In the FSA, China and any middle east nation they have to do it in secret (or get a permit before hand in the case of China), there are heaps of ways to play it like that.

[gilgamesh2206]

The APG says (I think, book not here) that you need 14 succ to hit the next star (4.3 light years away), and Pluto is something like 11 and the moon is 7.

Warp is available with Q3.

With Q5 and Perception 5 you could get moon more often that not.

With Q5, Perception 5, and Mega-Perception 3, and Warp 3, you'd average

5 + 2 + 2.7 + 1.2 = 11 succ.

That's with someone pretty specialized for Warping, but not the theoretical max.

A powermax would add 2 more succ on average (or 13)... so, if he was lucky he could reach the next solar system on a powermax.  But if might take him 3 tries before he made it.

If you are serious about other planets you need someone who can reach anything nearby (say 40 light years) without a powermax.  The character previously mentioned could do it, but he presumably has Mastery and/or Q6+ and/or Lots of Mega-Perception.

A maxed character without Q6+, would be limited to Warp 5, Q5, Perception 5, Mega-Perception 5 and would average 13.5 succ.  So he could reach the next star *sometimes*, but only somethimes.  Chances are good the next star doesn't have any suitable planets.

He's a fairly specialized warper. We've been playing for quite some time and he's finally reached the dizzy heights of Quantum 7, with Perception 6 and Mega Perception 4. He started off with Quantum 4, Perception 5 and Mega-Perception 3 so going orbital was always a possibility. Our ST has also introduced an extra for warp called interstellar, which gives 3 extra automatic successes on non-combat warp distance (and can be brought multiple times), due to the fact that we outlawed the effect enhancing aspect of mastery on the grounds that it becomes almost impossible to challenge a nova with it without opponents also having mastery. Ethan can fairly reliably hit Alpha-Centuri. He's adaptable and using our system quite able to survive in deep space or on planets without an atmosphere.

He's also a portent, and an obsessive-compulsive explorer. If there's a habitable planet out there near Fiddler's Green he'll find it and argue hard to get as many people as will follow to go and start the colonization effort. It'll take the baselines years to get there and the children will be safe.

Now this is our campaign, not canon, but I don't think it is beyond the bounds of possibility in canon that novas finally realized that competing for earth was a fight that they didn't need to lose thousands over (baselines being obviously more insane than even the most taint ridden of novas...is threatening global holocaust to wipe out a mere 10,000 or so a sane action?) and headed off to make their own destiny. Mal's call could have been another test, to separate the pioneers from the followers. Taking the example of Leviathan deciding to stay on earth, wait it out and show what being a Monster was all about, Mal would probably be happy, he's being true to himself.

[Sphere]

Is threatening global holocaust to wipe out a mere 10,000 a sane action?

Well not if it was 10,000 baselines. However when it's 10,000 superhumans each capable of absurd levels of destruction, who've massacred millions ( that's millions) of innocent people well...

Not so much insane as it is a final act of desparation.

Mal's power may be infinite but his tolerance is not.

See my other thread on Ethics and the Teragen for arguments of Mal hipocritical personality ::wink

[Alex Green]

From what I've heard so far I am a recent convert; Abbies cannot do anything, in fact they are rather pitiful when it comes to tackling problems on the macroscopic scale. I mean, the X-men would have at least busted ass -- even Magneto was feared and all he had was one set of powers

Magneto is Q6 or Q7. Mal is Q8. There is a world of difference.

Further, in real life, the first time someone like Magneto is arrested is also the time he is executed. He’s too powerful and too dangerous to do anything else. The abby environment defaults to more “realistic” than “cinemagraphic”. Thus the authors made sure that Mal would never be captured etc. He has weaknesses, but losing isn’t one of them.

Try not to think of any Aberrant power from the storyline as perfectly broken down within the rules. Successes, dice and dots can't begin to cover Quantum powers and their effects. Storywise we can assume some pretty amazing things, even if the system can't possibly duplicate the effects. I do not think that any WW writer rolled dice to see if what he were writing was possible within the rules.

Rolled dice, no. But I do think the rules were written with the back story in mind. That includes rules like “Mastery”.

It doesn’t just come down to a “final push”. Very, very, few novas have the ability to flee to other worlds, and fewer still had the ability to actually explore them. Even if you, and your group, wanted to leave the Earth in 2008, you couldn’t because there were no known other planets which could support life and there were few if any novas who could explore looking for the same. In 2008, there was only one and he probably wouldn’t lower himself to.

Furthermore, this makes the psion's position all the more worrisome, the coming eradication of the psis is no surprise, why would the human race even want to trust more "superpeople" after dealing with a mess of them only a few decades before?

The war helps that. Nothing focuses attention like a noose. Secondly, psion’s don’t gain physical aberrations (or if they do it’s much rarer and much more out of sight than the abbies of old).

[metaphysician]

Re: the infamous Divis Mal scene- I actually got the impression, off the "Story So Far" material plus Mal's known personality, that the entire scene was probably Aeon Society propaganda. After all, establishing that "the mightiest, evilest aberrant" intends to come back and take Earth helps provide justification for all *kinds* of things a less than totally ethical organization might want to do. . .

Doubly so considering that, going off some designer statements I've heard, Divis Mal *isn't* coming back. He hit Q10, bought Universe Creation, and is off somewhere building a better world.

Some other minor note: yeah, there are a whole bunch of ways Divis Mal could have stopped the Chinese Ultimatum, or the entire Aberrant War. However, by that point, I think he basically gave up on Earth as a lost cause. Humans and novas weren't going to be able to tolerate each other, and most all the novas didn't have the vision to reach their true potentials. So, take those novas who have shown some potential elsewhere, and leave.

Thus, the reason the Ultimatum worked was:

1. Considerable numbers of non insane novas working to contain, drive off, or kill the insane gods

2. Divis Mal leaving of his own free will, and encouraging others to evacuate

3. The nukes still actually threatened those who hadn't hit Q6+ yet, and thus encouraging them to take up offers of exile provided by 1 or 2

The history books just got rewritten so that all novas were insane, evil aberrant monstrousities.

As for the Trinity era, yeah, psions are outpowered by novas, but Q5 or less novas are still beatable. It just takes stuff ranging from a whole team of heavily equipped psions, to BioVARGs that look alot like Gundams that are armed with tactical nuclear weapons. The psionic powers mainly serve in a supportive roll, or as a means to target vulnerabilities present.

[Finbar]

Ultimate Nova Dispel: A pissed-off Upeo who has spent a lot of time in space. Think about it...

FR

[Blue Thunder]

I think the most important thing to remember is that when Trinity was written, Aberrants/novas weren't supposed to be as powerful as they were eventually were in the Aberrant RPG. Bates said that he intended for Divis Mal to be as powerful as any of the psi proxies. But Bates (and Baugh) weren't directly in control of the Aberrant line, and as a result there are conflicts in scale. They never intended for a starting nova to be able to dish out the kind of damage a Quantum Bolt 5 can dish out.

Divis Mal's power level was not originally intended.

People keep pointing the finger at Trinity, and I don't know why. Maybe because it's set in Aberrant's future so it dictates certain things will happen or not happen. But none of these issues (Novas not stopping China's missiles, Mega-Int novas not taking over the world, etc.) would have even be issues if the Aberrant RPG had kept to the power scale intended. As a result, we have Quantum 6+ characters able to destroy cities and kill millions...easily.

[Alex Green]

Aberrants/novas weren't supposed to be as powerful as they were eventually were in the Aberrant RPG. Bates said that he intended for Divis Mal to be as powerful as any of the psi proxies.

Granted that was true at one point, but then they also put in toss off lines like, An Abby Caused/Destroyed the Blight/Florida. And used the words "gods" & "they could do anything". Then we have the raid on the space station (standard abbies flying through space without life support, ripping through everything, and *one* of them takes a super-cannon at point blank and dies).

They may have built the structure without realizing some of the implications, but those implications were carved in stone letters 10 feet tall early on. If a few thousand novas can try to take over the planet, *without* cooperation and with the burden of mass insanity, then those few thousand have to be pretty darn impressive. Ditto if one abby, one city, one *nuke*, seems like a fair trade. And most of this is in like the first 30 or so pages of the background in the core book.

I don't see how you can get away from the Abby level of power without being totally unrealistic. (That's the problem with the D20 version.) The abby world is *built* for gods.

[metaphysician]

Yep. While you could argue they didn't intend for Divis Mal to be more than a "first among equals" level, all the feats and events of the Aberrant War, and alot of the Aberrant attacks later on, fit with the power curve of the Aberrant game. Certainly, you can't do things like frying the entire OpNet, or wiping out the Midwest, without Q6+ levels of power.

Now, alot of the public history in the Trinity book doesn't make sense in that light, yes, but thats why things like Project Rewrite wiping out record of the non-insane novas are in there.