Adventure! RPG - Archery and Strength??

[madcat82]

I and a friend of me had a discussion today about why archery uses strength... I was for the ide, he was not. My thought is that the stronger you are, the harder you can "draw" the string and therefor the faster the arrow will fly. The faster the arrow will fly, the straighter its vector will becom and thus the easier it will be to hit the intended target. He quiet promptly told me that i was wrong and the the only thing that you needed strength for when fireing (strange to use that word when talking about archer) a bow is to be able to handle it properly.

He says that he have trained archery, but still, it dont "feel" right. I mean, shuldnt an arrows triectory (sorry for the mispeling) somehow be connected to the archerers strength??

*ponders*

[phoenix]

I would definitely use strength for damage, but put a cap on it so you can't do missile damage with megastrength. It probably already has one.

For accuracy rolls, I would use dex. It doesn't really matter that what technically causes the accuracy is the strength with which the arrow was pulled back, for the same reason that running speed is dexterity-based.

[Arcanum_V]

Strength is an issue in archery, but only to a point. I think Archery should be under Dexterity, but there could be Strength minimums for certain very special bows/crossbows. A bow is rated by its draw weight, a measurement of how much force is needed to pull the string to its fullest drawn position. A 40 pound bow, for example, requires 40 pounds of pulling to completely draw the string back. If a person is not strong enough to fully draw the string, he's not going to be able to fire the bow correctly. He's also likely to tremble as he strains and probably spoil his aim, so I'd factor that in as a penalty: if you aren't strong enough, you get a +1 difficulty for every point you're missing from the Strength Minimum.

Assuming you are strong enough to fire the bow without trembling, shooting an arrow is just like shooting a gun, except you have to account for ballistics and wind over a long distance (which you also have to do for a gun, only less so). That is, the arrow needs to arc more than a bullet, and you need to account for that. In films, this is why you see archers point into the sky to hit someone a great way off. All of this is an issue of hand-eye coordination (Dexterity). The velocity of the arrow factors into it a little, but in game terms, I'd say that's a function of the character's Ability rating rather than his Strength. Low-Ability characters haven't fired as many arrows and can't innately compensate for the length of the arrow, the weight of the pull, the wind, etc., and that's why they roll fewer dice. Green Arrow can pick up any bow and immediately compensate for all of the factors, so he gets a big handful of dice.

I would not meticulously rate the draw weights of every bow in the game. Certain great heroes might have bows that require an above average Strength, but for the most part, White Wolf's Strength scores are abstract enough that anyone with a 3 or higher Strength should be able to use any bow without a problem. Normal recurve bow draw weights are in the 25-70 pound range, and a Strength of 2 is able to lift 100 pounds in a dead lift, so a Strength of 3 (dead lift 220 pounds) should have no problem handling even an English longbow in the 50-90 pound draw weight range. Since Adventure! bows already have a Strength minimum of 2, you might include the occasional rare heavy bow with a Strength minimum of 3 and a damage of 4L. Such bows should be rare, perhaps in the hands of Green Arrow-type characters or a lost tribe known for their mighty bows. Strength 1 characters might have problems even finding a bow that their wussy twig-arms can pull.

A very impressive bow (like Odysseus' bow from Homer's Odyssey) might require a Strength of 4 or more (or even Might), but such weapons are the stuff of legends and should be Gadgets.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

For me (though I haven't discussed this with my players, since none want to use bows anyway), I have the minimum strength to weild for the apropriate bow, the to hit is perception + archery.

[phoenix]

I've got to disagree with you there, Ayre.. perception undoubtedly plays a role, but if driving, firearms, artillery, and legerdemain are all dex-based, archery definitely is. I've just resigned myself to the fact that Dexterity, to some extent, entails the application of precise levels of Strength, Perception, and Wits.

[madcat82]

I see. Thank you Arcanum (as allways it seems... :-). Im somewhat saddend :-) since this meanst that Im wrong. Still, I cant shake the feeling in the back of my head that strength shuld be used. oh well, I suppose I have to follow the laws of physic...

Thanks everyone.

[ProfPotts]

In theory, with the proper materials, a bow could be made to match any Strength level. A Mega-Strong archer, using a custom-made, Nova-tech' material, bow, should be able to inflict his Mega-Strength damage at range with the (equally high-tech & custom) arrow. After all, certain seige-engine designs work on the same principle - it's a huge bow which needs winchs & similar devices to 'pull'.

Perception can already be a factor in firing a bow & arrow - see the rules on Aiming. Mega-Dex can grant a bonus if the character uses the Accuracy Enhancement.

Considering that WW needed to make a 'call' on which Attributes to pair with which Abilities (e.g. Pilot is a Wits Ability in Adventure!, Dex' Ability in Aberrant), I'd say that the Strength call was fair. The same arguments against using Strength as the base stat for archery can (& have) been used to argue that Brawl attacks shouldn't use Strength to determine accuracy either.

To a great extent firing a bow & arrow is an art that requires muscle-power; it also requires co-ordination, a good eye, & a sharp mind. The question is on how you generate your dice pool for the game. Does picking a lock need more Dexterity, Perception, Wits, or Intelligence? It certainly needs all those things, but to keep the game simple you need to choose which is most appropriate in the situation at hand.

Remember that Attribute + Ability pairings aren't absolute - you can cross match them.

With all that in mind, I'd say that using Strength as the base stat for Archery - pulling, holding, & firing the bow with a strong & steady hand in a fast-paced combat situation - is ok. Firing a standard competion bow at a range would probably use Dexterity instead.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Always the master Prof! ::thumbsup The perception argument was a long going one since my second ever character, I was always adament about perception because at range you have to arc the bow to get the desired angle to land the arrow as acurate as possible. Always thought it required more brain power than any other ranged weapon. The GM's point was the same as you made about competition archery, he reasoned that at that range it had to be dex to cover the speed and accuracy you needed to get your target before he/she got close enough. I still want to see the stats for an arbalast for purposes as a nova weapon.

Side note: house rule I use for bows (at least I don't think it's in the AEON books) is that body armor is at half soak against them. Reasons #1. imo bows don't do enough damage (in game), latest stats I remember seeing are 2d10L (shortbow), 3d10L longbow), we still use the 2nd ed rules 3d10L and 4d10L. #2. Body armor is useless against arrows and bolts (real world).

[ezekiel]

I think it should be appearance + archery...

[ProfPotts]

Nah - Linguistics + Archery...

... "Unlike some other Robin Hoods I could mention, I speak with an English accent!" ::tongue

[phoenix]

Bwa ha! I love that movie! In fact, I was just talking about it today..

"He split Robin's arrow in twain!"

[Ayre el KaBeer]

"It's not mine feet, I just wash them!" ::biggrin

[Asbjørn]

"I'll pay for this!! Er... You'll pay for this!!"

But seriously: For simplicity, I agreee archery should be dex-based, but I like to make strength count too. Factors like damage and range should be strength based, assuming the bow is customized to the user's strength.

For example: A! lists a bow's base range and damage at 30 meters and 3L damage at a strength of 2. How about increasing range by 10 meters and damage by 1 point for every point of strength above 2?

Actually, that's a pretty conservative estimate on the range... It would give a max range of 120 meters, which is pretty short in a heroic game like Adventure!

[Guest]

Wouldn't range and damage allready be factored into the strength requirements? It seems unlogical to add extra strength-related damage to a bow if there is a strength requirement of say 3 to use it in the first place. I would rather create three classes of bows and crossbows:

Small and light bows and pistol-like crossbows. Range 50m, damage 3L

Normal bows and regular crosbows. Range 100-150m, damage 3-4L

Superzised crossbows and longbows. Range 200-300m, damage 5L

Anything beyond that would be a gadget of somekind. You could also do away with strength requirements on crossbows by making some sort of mechanism to pull back the string automaticly. I hear pneumatics is the hot new thing..

I would say that dexterity and archery goes hand in hand. Use strength as a requirement. By the way, check this out (in norwegian) :

http://www.langbue.no/fortell/azincourt.htm

Disclaimer: I do not own a copy of the book myself, so I don't know if this is allready in the book.

[Winteredge]

Having been something of a bow buff in my early years, I firmly believe that using a bow has more to do with strength and perception than with fine motor manipulation.

Firearms is a different thing all together. With firearms you don't use the same technique to hit something. You simply point, aim, and squeeze the trigger. Its a direct pointing thing. Hiting a moving target requires precise movement.

With archery, you have much more of a lead, and often you actually must deal with an arc of fire and take that into account. Because of the variations, its much less linear than fireamrs is. It requires a rapid computation of spatial geometry that is not necessary for firearms usage. Precise movement is less involved than holding the bow steady under a strong sudden force, as well as pulling the bow - which is harder than many of you might imagine, especially if you are to fire several repeated shots. Firearms also involves a kick factor, but it is much less a part of the actual process, and also much less influenced by one's strength on average than archery is.

Repeated bow use will be felt strongly in your forearms (assuming the bow has much of a pull). Repeated firearms usage will leave your ears ringing, and may have your hands tingling (if its a heavy firearm), but you won't use near the muscles that you will when using bows.

Being intimately familiar with bows I can easily say that strength or perception are equally usable attributes for archery. Dexterity is less so.

I know its counter intuitive, but its true, in my opinion and experience.

A.P.

[Ayre el KaBeer]

Repeated firearms usage will leave your ears ringing, and may have your hands tingling (if its a heavy firearm), but you won't use near the muscles that you will when using bows.

A point about riffles and shotguns, it's not impossible to seriously injur your shoulder if you don't brace correctly.

[Winteredge]

About rifles, you are absolutely correct. I have personally gotten a really nasty bruise from not bracing correctly.

I still don't think that's directly strength related, though.

A.P.

[Finbar]

So...How about something like Per+Firearms to hit and Str+3 damage (with successes carrying over)?

The other obvious issue is whether to use Firearms or Athletics...

FR

[Arcanum_V]

The other obvious issue is whether to use Firearms or Athletics...

Or maybe Archery?

While appreciate the role of Strength in Archery, I think Adventure! already accounts for it in Strength minimums for bows, at least the way I use Strength minimums (+1 difficulty for every point missing between your Str. and the min.). The hand-eye coordination comes from Dexerity, and the skill in tracking moving targets, accounting for wind, etc. are in the Archery ability. I might be persuaded that Perception could work instead of Dexterity for some characters, especially if there was some Zen concentration involved.

[Asbjørn]

Wouldn't range and damage allready be factored into the strength requirements? It seems unlogical to add extra strength-related damage to a bow if there is a strength requirement of say 3 to use it in the first place.

All the force that translate to range and damage is based on the user's strength when firing a bow. My point is that different bows have different pull. A 40 pound bow is less powerful, both range and damage-wise, than a 80 pound bow, but the latter requires more strength to string and use.

Consequence: There are bows that have a higher strength requirement than 2, and those have a higher range and damage potential.

[Winteredge]

I spoke to a buddy of mine who's also done a lot of archery. He's also a big time WW Storyteller system player.

He's run several games I've played in, and I generally trust his opinions on things.

It turns out he used to go to archery competitions, and has won several awards for his accuracy and ability.

I felt strongly about my own opinions, but I had to ask him.

"If you were to apply archery to an attribute, and the attributes being considered were Strength, Perception, or Dexterity, which attribute would you apply it to?"

His response was, "Perception first, then Strength, and then Dexterity."

He mentioned knowing several very clumsy people who were very very good with a bow as a real-world example, and went on to explain his point of view which ended up being something very similar to what I've posted.

He mentioend that in a competition, where he typically only fired 28 to 30 shots, he would end up wiht sore muscles and being very very tired.

He said perception, to his point of view was THE number 1 indicator of whether or not you'd hit your target. He then said that if you were in a "movie like" combat situation (such as those portrayed by Legolas in LoTR), then Strength is going to be even more important.

In using a REAL bow, especially one that's going to give you strength to puncture armor, there is no pulling the string, turning your head and saying a word or two while letting off a little bit. Its either pulled or its not. A bow with any chance of really felling man or beast has such physical requirements that there is no chance of fine dexterity coming into play. You set up the shot with your eyes before you pull the string. Once its pulled, you make large arm adjustments (not the same as fine control - if you don't believe me, try writing with a pen when you aren't moving your fingers, wrist or elbow.)

Given that Perception has three abilities already associated with it, Dexterity has a lot more, and strength has only Might and Brawl, it makes perfect sense for Strength to be the attribute chosen to apply the ability to. According to anyone who's done it in the real world, perception and strength are about equal.

Of course, in a real world combat situation, archers would stand back and fire en masse. Typically if a calvalry attack made it up on a group of archers unpunctured (almost never happened by the way), then the archers were typically routed, or at least fell back to take more pot-shots if their morale was high enough.

Anyway,

there you go.

A.P.

[madcat82]

Thank you Winteredge, you have warmed my old Trinity ST hearth.