Aberrant: 200X - [Proposal Thread] Powers, Enhancements and Rules

[Kazuo]

Regarding the Disparity between Brawl and Martial Arts:

If we people wanted, we could simply roll both abilities (Brawl and Martial Arts) into a generic "Fighting" ability, that can be used with either Dexterity or Strength (player chooses when the Ability is first purchased). Alternately, an enhancement could be created that allows Mega-Strong characters to add their Mega-Strength dice to Brawl dice pools, but as regular dice only, not as mega-dice.

Speaking of which, the Combat Style advanced technique Muscular Coordination allows a Brawler to add any Mega-Dexterity they have to their Brawl dice pools but, again, as regular dice only, not as mega-dice.

I would even be fine with a single character having both the above-proposed enhancement (that would allow Mega-Strength to be added to Brawl dice pools as regular dice) and the Muscular Coordination advanced technique, with the benefits stacking.

[Kazuo]

Sorry, for double-posting like this again, but I failed to notice some of the discussion about when and how to introduce the Martial Arts stuff.

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning behind only allowing xp earned after June, or July or whenever, to be usable towards the Combat Styles stuff. Why?

Please take note of something, guys, every single one of the Combat Styles have a minimum training time associated with each of rank of Specialty in that particular Style. True, novas get to cut the listed time in half, and there is a Merit that will further cut this time in half again, but the majority of the Combat Styles have a minimum training time of one year per rank.

So if we all want to vote that no xp can be applied towards this stuff until next month, well then ok, I guess. But I know I, for one, will be extremely non-plussed if I see someone running around showing off their latest ranks in the Kung Fu specialty a month after that. You've got six months of training to go before you can say you've got that stuff down, man.

So, for instance, before I knew that the Combat Style stuff hadn't been approved yet, I bought some of it for Kazuo - but I only bought one rank. Not because I didn't have the xp - a single rank only costs 2xp and I had a lot more than that to play with - I only bought one rank because I didn't see as believable or fair for me to come back after even a year-long hiatus and then try to claim that Kazuo somehow managed to squeeze a couple of year's worth of martial arts training into his schedule while I was gone and not writing for him.

Sure, that might make sense if I wanted to claim that he'd been hiding in a monastery doing nothing but training during all that time, but that's really not very likely. So I only purchased a single rank, and from one of the few styles that has a 6 month per rank training time (meaning Kazuo could've mastered it in 3 months).

Personally, I say let people buy it as they may, and for characters who've been around for a bit, just use your xp as you earn it and "retcon" it into your character's sheet and background, if that makes sense (as it would for The Breaker, for instance). A rank in any given specialty costs all of 2xp, folks. That's not a lot. Most of the advanced techniques only cost either 1 or 3xp, assuming that they're associated with your particular Combat Style.

And again, one way or the other, it takes time to learn the stuff, so if your character is 22 years old then it probably isn't believable to claim that they've mastered three different Styles and have a dozen different Advanced Techniques under their belt. Likewise, if your nova only erupted half a year ago, then you flat out can't have more than one rank in something like Golden Gunplay or Qi Meng, simply because you haven't been around long enough to have more.

I know some of you guys might be wishing you could go back and purchase some of this stuff with xp you no longer have, but in most cases I don't see this as a legitimate reason to restrict it's purchase in the way that's been proposed. I mean, sure, Bombshell's player might be thinking to himself that he would have added some martial arts stuff to Jason's sheet six months ago if it had been allowed, but let's be realistic here, Jason hasn't exactly been devoting the past year to extensive, full-time training in any advanced combat styles, you know? (And I'm not trying to imply that Bombshell's player isn't being realistic, or even that he has a problem with any of this, BTW, I'm just making a point.)

Even for characters like Einherjar, Evo, Kazuo, or the other actual, honest-to-god Elites (you know, the guys who make a living from engaging in and surviving nova-level combat), it still doesn't make sense to try and go back and claim that they could have multiple levels of various Combat Styles on their sheets. They've all been too busy actually fighting to have been doing much training. So sure, they could claim to have some levels (as I had been planning on claiming that Kazuo had a single level of Street Fighting under his belt), but if I'd seen, say, Einherjar suddenly pop up with 3 levels of, say, Savate, with a level of Escrima thrown in and, oh yeah, a rank of Golden Gunplay that he'd just sort of picked up along the way, I would've personally taken issue with that.

Anyway, that's all for my rant on this.

[Warren Verona]

Quote:

Honestly I don't think that's necessary or fair.

Crush: You spend the quantum points. If the attack misses the points are still spent.

Shockwave: The nova spends the quantum and makes shockwave. No one, this time, is affected by it, but the quantum is still spent.

Thunderclap: The nova spends the quantum points and does a thunderclap. No one is affected by it, this time, but the quantum is still spent.

Immovable Object: The Nova spends the quantum points but another nova still manages to knock him down! Too bad, but the quantum points are still spent.

Unstoppable Force: The nova spends the quantum points and slams into an immovable object only to find that it withstands his onslaught! Too bad, but the quantum points are still spent.

Accuracy: The nova spends the quantum. Despite the three extra dice granted to him, he still missed his attack. The quantum is still spent, however.

Rapid Strike: The nova spends the quantum point, but inflicts no damage at all. The point is still spent though.

Durability: The character spends a quantum point, but fails the Stamina roll so he doesn't reduce the damage. The point is still spent, however.

Hardbody: The nova spends the quantum point but fails to soak any of the damage at all, the point is still used up though.

Artistic Genius: The nova spends the quantum point but still fails the appraisal roll. He doesn't get the point back.

Lie Detector: The nova spends the quantum, but Einherjar still manages to bullshit his way past them! The point, however, is still spent.

Need I really go on?

It seems perfectly fair and as far as necessary, as an enhancement the core of the rules seems to be consistent: you spend the point, and regardless of success or failure, the point remains spent.

[Kazuo]

Sure, you should be required to spend a quantum point to actually use the enhancement's effects. But, if someone launches a powerful quantum bolt attack at your character and you decide to use his Deflect/Redirect or his Force Field to perform a Power Block defensive maneuver, you can do so, provided that you have a defensive action ready for it. There is nothing that says that you have to have already spent a quantum point at the beginning of your turn for each and every potential use of those powers to perform a Power Block.

Likewise, if you have the Durability enhancement and you get struck by more lethal damage than you have Lethal soak, you can spend a quantum point and roll Stamina at Standard difficulty and convert that Lethal damage into Bashing damage, using your Bashing soak to deal with it. If you fail the roll the damage isn't converted. But nowhere does it say that if you're planning on converting three attacks' worth of Lethal damage into Bashing in a given turn that you have to spend 3qp at the beginning of your round and then, if any of those three attacks actually hit you, you can roll your Stamina to see if you manage to convert the damage, but if all the attacks miss then, oh well, you've still spent your quantum points.

So while I do agree that using Soft Fist to actually redirect attacks should cost quantum, regardless of whether the redirection is successful or not, I do not agree that you should have to declare how many times you might want/need to use the enhancement in a given round and then have to pay that number of quantum points in advance. No other power or enhancement that I can think of works that way.

[Warren Verona]

Re-reading it, it was my fault. I meant success or failure.

We're on the same page now.

[Kazuo]

Haha! No worries, man.

I've been there plenty of times.

[Origami]

Looking at the Martial Arts brewhaha here's what I'm seeing.

Before this change, everyone was vanilla. All generic dots. Maybe a specialty in a combat maneuver type but that was it. Now all of a sudden with the Martial Arts rules from TNF being activated next month, this is a universe shaking addition. A game changer. Now not to mention the players, but NPCs, even canon characters now will have abilities under their belts.

But for those that couldn't get the martial art abilities before the TNF Martial Arts material was added now has to take their character off the shelf for years just to match what they should have?

Origami has 5 dots Melee and all the other qualifiers for Kenjutsu. This alone shows he put the time and effort to learn the techniques. Originally having MA:5 just meant you can do all that stuff with a simple roll. Now you have to purchase every little nuance of a skill you already had.

So I'm going to vote no on allowing the advanced Martial Arts rules unless we're some wiggle room for the characters that can swing it with high levels in their respective abilities.

[WhiteRain]

I vote for allowing Combat Styles stuff for an argument revenant himself brought up: As it stands all the combat crowd are statistics, lacking anything that sets them apart other than specific numbers and quantum powers. Using this will allow us to do more with our 'meagre' 5/5/5 for Dex/Mega/MA or Melee. Individuality is fun!

[Eingar]

Okay. If someone can get a re-balanced/clarified version of Soft Fist up here, taking into account the points agreed on, we can get on with signing off on it.

Now with the Combat Styles issue being voted for, I'm opening the initial debate on Golden Gunplay and Qi Meng.

Personal views on these:

Golden Gunplay: Fun, interesting, and cinematic application of nova reflexes to introduce gun-kata to the setting. I have little to no problem with the concept.

Qi Meng: This grated on me for several reasons, one being it's trivialisation of the Teras philosophy into some kind of 'quick and easy' way to deal with Taint by comparison to the enlightened humanistic outlook of the jedi-novas (we all know that's what Qi Meng is). It's a way of having your transcendental cake and eating it. Maybe that's my inner-Terat speaking, but it looks like a case of 'smoking but not inhaling' to me.

Another was it's breaking of a fundamental piece of accepted setting 'science': that novas can interact with the noetic stratum except in the most basic way of being a weight on the rubber sheet of the cosmos. If you can directly manipulate quantum, you cannot manipulate noetic energy, even indirectly as the Qi Meng writeup claims. Yes, some noeticists can manipulate quantum in basic ways through manipulating psi, but that's their benefit. That's the perk of being a psiad or psion - you're right down at the sub-building blocks of the universe. But it's a one-way street - novas can't manipulate psi in any way.

Cent made a good point that Qi Meng might be seen as the nova "making room" in their template for noetic energy to flow in and cleanse them. I don't buy it for the basic reason that novas are raw power. Having a node means limitless potential, but the payoff is that you can't throttle-back at the sub-quantum level. This is why the Doyen hate novas and seek to drive them away - just by existing, even a zero-taint nova is a weight on the local psi-wavelength: signal interference.

At any rate, that's *my* two pence. If anyone says "I want Qi Meng in the setting", then it's worth putting it to a vote. Arguments for or against aside, all player's wishes are to be given equal consideration. I do personally consider it cheezmode and will make snarky remarks about jedi novas whenever it seems funny to do so, however.

[Kazuo]

While I don't feel quite as negatively as Einherjar seems to about Qi Meng, I don't really feel like it belongs in 200x, either. At least not at this point, anyway. So even if a vote for it were put up I would vote 'No'.

[WhiteRain]

I'd vote no for canon reasons.

The Teragen is fatally flawed, but Teras works. The entire point of the Teragen tragedy is that it's a great story of 'what could have been', in fact that's the whole Aberrant timeline. The presence of Qi Meng reduces the Teragen to 'just' monsters and renders their philosophy moot. And to be honest, it reeks to me of someone aiming for that precise goal.

That or wanting to make Teras the dark side and Qi Meng the light side of the force

In and of itself it's interesting and I'm sure would lead to some good fics for whoever wanted to explore it, but I think it's too corrosive to the atmosphere and the established lore, and very much feels like having your cake and eating it, as Ein said in chat.

[Kazuo]

Totally forgot to comment on Golden Gunplay: I like it. It looks like good fun and it adds a lot of style to ranged combat. I say let's include it.

[Bombshell]

Golden Gunplay:

I like it, save for the fact that the creators seemed to have used the excuse that it's a 'Nova' martial art to cram in a boatload of Maneuvers and Advanced Techniques (It has 6 starting maneuvers even). And it only takes 6 months per specialty, less than most martial arts (though, looking at it, I assume they are already applying the Inspired's halving of training time).

On the other hand, all it seems to go with the Style, except for the Pressure Strike maneuver and Pressure Secret Maneuver - nothing in the description leads me to believe this goes with the style, and not ever John Woo tried to pull that shit with pistols in hand. I'd say yes if the pressure point stuff is out.

Qi Meng:

My first thought was, "God, no, not another to deal with taint." And then you guys mentioned Jedi-Novas and I also vomited, their self-righteous elitism greatly irritating me.

Then I took a step back, and read it again, and you know... I think it's fine. And I don't find it has the cake-and-eat-it too issue, at least no more than Teras does. You have to pay for every benefit you get, and a lot. It doesn't let you turn taint into exp or let you buy stuff at a reduced cost (you actually buy some things at double cost instead of half). True, you don't get aberrations or social penalties, but on the other hand, other can Count Orzaiz, I don't think a single Terat cares about those anyway. From a mechanical perspective, I think it's every bit as balanced as Teras.

From a setting perspective... I don't think it will have the ramifications others seem to think it will have. And I disagree with the Teragan being about the whole Aberrant Timeline. Teras would not in anyway stop the Aberrant War and would have little effect on its outcome, in my mind. Teras doesn't stop Novas from going insane (though in theory, it helps mitigate that), nor does it limit their growing disparity with humanity, and not every Nova would have followed Teras anyway. Enough of that, Aberrant War is another issue.

I just don't think the inclusion of Qi Meng would have a significant effect on the setting, just significant effects for a few individuals. It's far less widespread and more exclusive. Even if the Sifu started advertising (unlikely that), for every adherent he got, he'd probably get 10-100 who said fuck this, drop out and go talk to the Teragen.

One of the arguments from WhiteRain and Ein seem to boil down to: It makes Teras look bad. So? Would a Terat care? And besides, Teras does look bad - they campaign aggressively and have no entry requirements, so they get all sorts joining. The Sifu makes it hard to even get in the door, and he doesn't advertise, so he can be a little more selective.

Finally, when there was talk about the Chrysalis rules, there was mention that Teras was the only legitimate philosophy that dealt with being a Nova, and it took decades to develop and about 2-4 years by the Pantheon to work into something almost anyone could follow (if few successfully). Someone mentioned if they spent the time developing their own Inspired philosophy, there could be an alternative to Chrysalis.

Well, someone did. Instead of moving away from humanity and embracing their Nova nature, this one deals in finding the balance between the two.

I agree it might not be appropriate for right now, but I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand.

[WhiteRain]

My point is that Teras fits with the Aberrant mood, Qi Meng is basically the exact opposite. Didn't phrase that very well.

What are the negative consequences of adopting Qi Meng, if you DON'T come at it from the perspective of a powergamer?

Quote:

True, you don't get aberrations or social penalties, but on the other hand, other can Count Orzaiz, I don't think a single Terat cares about those anyway. From a mechanical perspective, I think it's every bit as balanced as Teras.

And the entirety of the Casablancas, and half the Harvesters, and all the Pandaimonion which accounts for... Half of the Teragen?

[Kazuo]

Regarding the Starting Maneuvers; you only get to pick 3 of the ones listed. That's stated clearly on pg. 84-85 where the basics of Combat Styles are explained. It also states clearly that you can only choose your later Maneuvers from the list of Bonus Maneuvers for a given Style, so choose wisely.

Regarding the Pressure Strike and Secret business; I really don't see a problem with it. The Pressure Strike, mechanically, just requires a victim to roll Resistance at +2 Diff or be Stunned for a bit, and I don't see anything odd about a Master Marksman pulling off something like that with a firearm. The Pressure Secret is touchier, and requires some policing (either on the part of the STs/Mods or else some self-policing), but the Dim Mak, Sensory Deprivation Strike, Suffocation and Stunner variations of the Technique are all perfectly valid expressions of what a true master of Golden Gunplay might be capable of.

Regarding Qi Meng; Bombshell pretty much said everything I would've said if I'd felt like taking the time to say it, and probably in a better-worded manner, too. So good job!

[Kazuo]

Originally Posted By: WhiteRain

My point is that Teras fits with the Aberrant mood, Qi Meng is basically the exact opposite. Didn't phrase that very well.

What are the negative consequences of adopting Qi Meng, if you DON'T come at it from the perspective of a powergamer?

Your first statement is extremely subjective (by which I mean, "that's your opinion, buddy"), and doesn't take into account other perspectives at all.

Regarding your second statement: Oh, I don't know, how about the ridiculously steep costs for progressing as a nova or getting rid of any Taint you do accrue, as contrasted by the fact that - other than your lack of taint - you get nothing in return for those raised costs?

Now, here's a better question for you: What are the positive consequences of adopting Teras, if you DON'T come at it from the perspective of a powergamer?

[Caitlin Kieran]

Qi Meng: I have no problem with it. Honestly, the only players so far who've gotten feathers ruffled have been the players of Terats. As I recall, there was IC activity quite a long time ago (not sure if it was in 200X or 2010) on the part of a few players to create a "third way" for people who wanted a philosophy like Teras, but without The Crazy. As far as I can tell from what's been posted, the only thing Qi Meng lets you do is get rid of Taint, at a prohibitively high cost. ...As opposed to Teras, which essentially sends you go into a magic cocoon for a while to buy new stuff more cheaply, and generally doesn't care too much about Taint since it's just another quantum expression. (Yes, I realize there's a chance to screw it up if the dice don't like you.)

Also, what Bombshell said.

How many characters will it actually affect? Not mine, for certain, unless I one day created a PC just to see how it works. Given the extremely limited scope and difficulty, what's it going to change? And, as far as Teras is concerned, would it really matter? I honestly don't think so. I don't think it would be more than a discussion piece in this setting, but if someone wants to invest that much time and effort into it, I don't see an issue.

If nothing else, I think we should see how it would play out.

[WhiteRain]

Quote:

Regarding your second statement: Oh, I don't know, how about the ridiculously steep costs for progressing as a nova or getting rid of any Taint you do accrue, as contrasted by the fact that - other than your lack of taint - you get nothing in return for those raised costs?

The ridiculously steep cost for... buying quantum 6? Okay it limits node as well, but it's not as if node is an essential background anyway.

Unless I've missed something, those seem to be the only increased costs.

Quantum 6, which in canon you can count the number of Novas with it on two hands with fingers to spare?

[Kazuo]

Yes, for purchasing Quantum 6. You and I, and everyone else playing in 200x, know perfectly well that Quantum 6 will happen here one day. Not now, or anytime soon, I'd expect. But it'll happen, mark my words.

But, no, those aren't the only steep costs.

Reread the rules for Qi Meng, my friend, it costs xp to reduce your Taint score - as opposed to Terats who get xp for going into Chrysalis and can then use that free xp to reduce their taint. So yeah, it is more expensive to be a Qi Meng practitioner than it is to be a Terat and you progress more slowly.

Both of my points still stand.

[Eingar]

My issues with Qi Meng are actually nothing to do with the nuts and bolts. How the system for it works in the Abby game mechanics sense is fine and balanced. No problem at all for me there.

My issue is one of appropriate description, of the fairly serious paradigm-bending that results from novas being able to touch the noetic in a positive, controlled fashion. My knee-jerk Teras-loving reaction of "if you don't want to inhale, don't fucking smoke" was just that, knee-jerk.

I think if Qi Meng does get allowed, it should follow the canon in that the Sifu only started taking padawa- sorry, apprentices circa 2014-15. That allows for, assuming he/she Erupted on N-Day, nearly 2 decades of practice and research to establish his path.

[Kazuo]

That sounds good to me. I don't have the same problems with the thematic elements of it, but I definitely agree with the timeline issues.

[Eingar]

Alrighty. I'll be putting Golden Gunplay and Qi Meng up for votes as soon as the Combat Styles general vote goes through.

GG will be a simple Yes/No. Qi Meng's options will be "Yes", "Yes, but starting from 2015 or so" and "No."

These options okay?

[Kazuo]

Looks good to me.

[Warren Verona]

Enhancement time. Here's a few that have all been play tested for balance and they all work well in a gritty combat environment. These may help getting us on the road of balancing out the Mega-Strongs with the Mega-Quicks in combat. I used all of these in my Marvel Abby game, and none of them broke the benchmark for 'OP'. I have a rule: "For ever hit, a counter. For every counter, a hit."

I'm not saying these are perfect, only that they suited my needs for a game that lasted well over two years and no one complained. That doesn't mean they'll work here, but it also doesn't mean they can't be adjusted.

Powerhouse (Mega-Strength)

Mega-Strong characters are usually attributed to slow, lumbering, muscle heads. Lacking the subtlety and grace associated with martial artists, powerhouse brawlers are good one thing: destroying anything they hit. Most quickly learn, however, that connecting with particularly swift opponents in combat is troublesome if not impossible at times.

True powerhouses have learned how to anticipate their opponent’s actions, remove their maneuverability, or just plain fight dirty. Regardless of how they fight, the result is always the same: maximum damage potential behind every strike.

System: With this enhancement the nova is permitted to roll their Mega-Strength dice during a brawl or any other strength based attack. As per the rules each 7,8, or 9 on the mega dice are considered two successes and all 10s are considered three successes. This enhancement does not confer the ability to break the five successes damage limit but it will permit the nova to rack enough combat successes to deal with Mega-Dexterous novas dodging and leaping about.

This enhancement is always active once purchased and requires not quantum to use.

Pinpoint Accuracy (Mega-Dexterity)

Some novas are not built for strength but for speed. Mega-Dexterous novas are insanely accurate and precise with every attack in combat, making even a glancing blow a near fatal strike as nerve-clusters and muscle groups recoil from powerfully placed, accurate blows.

True masters of accuracy however, are even deadlier, capable of inflicting fatal wounds to even the hardiest of targets. They simply hone in on their target’s weaknesses, apply the right amount of force, and watch them die slowly from the internal injuries.

System: With this enhancement the nova’s Mega-Dexterity dice are considered to be Mega-Strength dice for the purposes of inflicting extra damage in combat whenever they are using dexterity based combat skills. So, a nova with a Mega-Dexterity score of 2 automatically inflicts [10] health levels of damage. If the nova already possesses a Mega-Strength score the damage is not cumulative, the higher score’s damage adds are applied only.

It should be noted that this enhancement also applies to melee and ranged weaponry. In terms of melee weapons it only applies to light, one-handed weapons that are designed with finesse in mind that usually involve puncturing or razor thin cuts that bleed a lot (knives, daggers, fencing foils, whips, etc). Swords, axes and katanas do not count, sorry guys. For ranged weaponry this applies to most thrown weapons that are not strength based (throwing knives, shuriken, paperclips, and in one case: jacks). Pistols and sub-machine guns qualify, but rifles and heavier weapons (shot guns included) do not.

Additionally, once a nova has Pinpoint Accuracy, they no longer need to spend a turn ‘charging’ the Accuracy enhancement; they may apply it instantaneously to any applicable attack. They do need to still spend 1 quantum point per attack, however.

This enhancement is always active once purchased and requires no quantum to use.

Bring It! (Mega-Stamina)

Not the type to float like a butterfly? Do you have better shit to in a fight than put on a floorshow? Or maybe you’re just too damn fat, lazy, or large to move at any pace faster then ‘stationary’. Well brother, have I got the enhancement for you! With Bring It! you never have to worry about dodging blows ever again! Why dodge when you can stand there and let them give you everything they have and laugh in their face once you proceed to pummel them into goop!

System: The nova’s muscles are so dense, or their flesh so flabby, that they need no longer worry about having enough room to dodge in a fight. The character may block any incoming attack using their Stamina + Mega-Stamina + Endurance.

This enhancement allows the nova to block lethal damage. They may also ‘block’ attacks such as gunfire or certain quantum powers. Additionally, at the cost of 1 quantum point, the character may increase their bashing and lethal soak scores by their [quantum] for a single turn, sending juice to tense up muscle groups to better withstand attacks.

Unbridled Rage (Mega-Strength)

You are a force to reckon with on the battlefield, a God of War, a Lord of Pain. All who stand in your way will know what it means to feel the awesome might of your power as you strike them dead with a single blow.

System: Your nova can break the 5 dice damage limit. With this enhancement active every undodged/unblocked success you acquire is applied to your damage pool, ignoring the usual cap of 5 dice. Additionally, once learned, the character need no longer spend a turn 'charging' Crush and may apply the additional damage immediately, providing they have the quantum to fuel it. If the nova has the Rage abberation, all costs for Crush are halved.

This enhancement costs 3 quantum points to activate and stays active for the duration of the scene. Once active the character may no longer dodge, only block. They may not pull punches or make use of the Precision enhancement. Also, they may not willingly shut this enhancement off until the combat is over, once activated, the nova is committed to a warpath of destruction.

[Kazuo]

I already told Revenant in chat, but I'll say it officially here that I really like all of these. Great job!

[Eingar]

I have one niggle regarding Pinpoint Accuracy. Theoretically, a nova with Mega-Dex 5 could take out a main battle tank with a 9mm pistol. Seeing as the Enhancement is supposed to represent supernatural accuracy and hitting vital spots, perhaps there could be a limitation on the types of targets it can be used against. Perhaps half-effect against non-living targets, for instance?

Other than that I really like these Enhancements. Ein is totally getting Unbridled Rage if they go through.

[WhiteRain]

My only issue with the inclusion of these enhancements is that they fundamentally change the mechanics.

They balance the stats by making them identical, save for abilities attached to them. If you're a combat Nova, you take Mega Dex to hit and Mega Strength to hurt what you hit. If these were ratified wouldn't they have drastic effects on how people generated their characters, and potentially wouldn't they have greatly changed how several long-time characters would have been built?

Would Ein, for example, have less Dex and more Str, since he no longer needed Dex for accuracy? Or Kaz have less Str but more Dex? Etc. etc.

No problems with bring it/unbridled rage.

[Dawn OOC]

Dex and Str are good for more than hitting and damage, and these two enhancements have their limits. If Ein wants to be super-humanly good with a heavy rifle or have a decent super-human dodge, he still needs Mega-Dex. Kaz is still going to need Mega-Str if he wants a chance to break grapples and or throw that tank around.

What this is really going to do is mean that novas don't have to buy Str or Dex to be combat effective. That has been an annoyance for me for a long time yet, my PC Loki has been limited in combat by his lack of Mega-Dex. He'll never be Mega-Dexy, because that isn't the build, and I was planning on him having to add Homing to his Q-bolt to have any chance of hitting at all. In fact, this addition means he'll still have issues hitting dexy people with a Q-bolt but now might have a chance. I wasn't sure what I was going to do about the fact that he was never going to hit in combat. This is something for him to work towards; I can figure out a fiction of him working on developing this if approved.

[Evo]

I like. I think Evo is getting Pinpoint Accuracy, if nothing else.

[Bombshell]

Okay, I'll admit that I like the idea of these enhancements, but I think their effects are too good.

Unbridled Rage:

This one looks fine, though I am very leery of letting an aberration double the effect of Crush. Would people with the Vengeful flaw get the same bonus, or those with Rage aberration as a flaw? This Enhancement suddenly makes an Aberration look attractive (or vice versa).

Bring It:

This enhancement suddenly lets a super-stamina'ed nova ignore M-dex to avoid getting hit. I like the idea, but he shouldn't be as good or better than an M-Dex guy at getting out of the way. Might I suggest Bring It On lets you use Stamina + M-Stamina + Endurance for Block and Parry maneuvers, and not dodge maneuvers? He can brace himself against attacks focused on him, but he's still getting fireballed if he just stands there. (On the other hand, he can still pump up his soak, and he probably already has some decent soak anyway. )

Pinpoint Accuracy and Powerhouse:

I look at these and think anyone that has one attribute higher than the other would be stupid NOT to buy these. And that warns me that they might be too good (Hell, even with only a one point difference between M-Str and M-Dex, I was still tempted by Pinpoint Accuracy). Someone like Kazuo (sorry, just the first guy I knew with a high M-Dex and not as high M-str, barring increased density) could increase his damage by [15] to [25] (depending on hand-to-hand versus guns/ranged) for the price of just 5xp and it doesn't even cost quantum.

I'm not opposed to the idea actually, I just don't think someone with M-Str should be as good at hitting things as someone with M-Dex, nor someone with M-Dex hit as hard as someone with M-Str. It lets someone almost ignore another stat and still be as balanced. I quite agree with WhiteRain's comment. I believe someone who goes through the effort of keeping their stats even should be at an advantage over someone who just bought a 5xp enhancement (or took it as their free one). Yes, they might lose some of the benefit of the other stat, but they are still getting the main one they want, and on the other hand, that just freed up a lot of XP to compensate with other stats/powers and then some.

I'll like to offer some alternatives/adjustments, but even these are still extremely tempting, to my eye anyway.

Pinpoint Accuracy:

Reduce the damage to [2] or [3] damage per rank. Still extremely good, anyone with a high M-Dex would by this, and they can use it at range more consistently and with better weapons (and worse ones) than someone with M-Str.

And I do have the same issue as Ein about this enhancement. Somethings just don't care how accurate you are. An M-Str guy can throw a baseball through a tank, but without the force, it doesn't matter how accurate you are. Or how about someone with Dispersed Organs, would he reduce the damage he takes?

I had an idea for an alternative to this power instead of an adjustment: What if it turned overage successes into auto damage instead of just extra dice? That would be closer to the flavour of being accurate than just flat damage. And maybe the number of extra successes allowed could be increased by one for each dot of M-Dex.

Powerhouse: Besides the fluff having nothing to do with being strong (it sounds more like M-Wits to me), I'd suggest the extra dice from M-Str count as regular dice instead. Still a definite improvement, makes Brawl more attractive and M-Str isn't suddenly every bit as accurate as M-Dex.

And just to reiterate, I agree with WhiteRain that the inclusion of these might have serious ramifications for some already built characters (mine included). And hell, it would also make any divisions in the XWF useless too, since the fast guys hit every bit as hard (or harder) than the heavyweights.

Please, I hope everyone takes a good, long look at these, and thinks about them more than, "Oh! This is awesome for whoever."

[WhiteRain]

Originally Posted By: Dawn, OOC

DKaz is still going to need Mega-Str if he wants a chance to break grapples and or throw that tank around.

What this is really going to do is mean that novas don't have to buy Str or Dex to be combat effective. That has been an annoyance for me for a long time yet, my PC Loki has been limited in combat by his lack of Mega-Dex.

Can't grapples be broken with MA? I'm sure holds don't have to be might tests, though that might be just bad memory.

Isn't there an equal argument that this makes mega dex even MORE absurdly good?

How many abilities rely on strength? How many on dex? And combat-relevant ones at that?

As it stands you need mega dex to get most of the relevant abilities and strength to do the damage (in hand to hand, anyway), unless you're one of those combatty types who goes for very oblique angles or pure quantum bolt variants.

[Warren Verona]

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Theoretically, a nova with Mega-Dex 5 could take out a main battle tank with a 9mm pistol. Seeing as the Enhancement is supposed to represent supernatural accuracy and hitting vital spots, perhaps there could be a limitation on the types of targets it can be used against. Perhaps half-effect against non-living targets, for instance?

This came up at the table once and it turned into an ST call sort of thing. In the past Pinpoint Accuracy has been used to shoot through the peep holes in tanks and ricochet bullets into the controls and computer systems. While the result was not a grand explosion, the destroyed internal systems caused he vehicle to come to a stop, disabled.

Frankly I'm cool with halving it against objects if people think it's necessary. The people at the table were more agreeable and easier to talk to than the internet. Like I said, it was a ST Fiat call, if I felt the object had 'vitals' then I'd allow it. Our Abby equivalent of Bullseye, Jack, tossed a paperclip at a bank vault... and I laughed at him. When he flicked a BB through a key hole into a man's throat, that was different.

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They balance the stats by making them identical, save for abilities attached to them. If you're a combat Nova, you take Mega Dex to hit and Mega Strength to hurt what you hit. If these were ratified wouldn't they have drastic effects on how people generated their characters, and potentially wouldn't they have greatly changed how several long-time characters would have been built?

Yeah, I hate for things to be balanced. Crap. I didn't think that it might make sense and even the playing field for novas everywhere. My bad.

As far as the people who have already made their characters before the possible inclusion of these enhancements?

Cry me a river.

Look, every RP game I've ever played has included stuff AFTER I've made my character. Every time D&D 3.5 made a new book with Feats my DM didn't let me re-make my character because new stuff came out. When White Wolf released new material my ST didn't let me re-spend all my XP just because some new merit, flaw, gift, or rote was introduced.

I worked around it because I'm a grown up.

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This one looks fine, though I am very leery of letting an aberration double the effect of Crush. Would people with the Vengeful flaw get the same bonus, or those with Rage aberration as a flaw? This Enhancement suddenly makes an Aberration look attractive (or vice versa).

Hmm, good question. Let me read the Enhancement again. No mention of flaws, no mention of vengeful...

I'd say nope unless the ST said it was okay. The Enhancement is specific on what permits the cost reduction. Does this make the aberration look attractive? Personally, I don't think so, but then again used this at a table where I, the ST, actually called people out on their aberrations. When someone had Rage I called them up on it and they could snap at any moment and cause problems.

Here in 200X, much like spending quantum or other sorted little details, people don't get called out as often as they should on their Taint or aberrations. I've no doubt someone might think that Rage was a good aberration to have and were I the sole ST here I'd prove them wrong by watching them mow down their friends and family the next time they get pissed.

Again, it's open for adjustment, providing people all agree to the mechanic.

Quote:

I like the idea, but he shouldn't be as good or better than an M-Dex guy at getting out of the way. Might I suggest Bring It On lets you use Stamina + M-Stamina + Endurance for Block and Parry maneuvers, and not dodge maneuvers? He can brace himself against attacks focused on him, but he's still getting fireballed if he just stands there.

Um, that exactly what the Enhancement does do. You did read it right?

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The character may block any incoming attack using their Stamina + Mega-Stamina + Endurance.

It specifically states block any incoming attack. Not dodge or parry (parry implies a weapon is in the defenders hand). This permits a Mega-Stamina nova to just sit there and block attacks.

Dodge, Parry and Block are all separate words. Unless one is covered by that enhancement, it's not included in the wording of that enhancement.

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Or how about someone with Dispersed Organs, would he reduce the damage he takes?

This I don't get. Why would anyone assume that Dispersed Organs is affected by this enhancement? Dispersed Organs has its own rules for how damage is applied to the character.


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Basically, the enhancements are an attempt to balance all the Attributes out. No one Attribute should be better or worse than any other and over the years its been proven that Mega-Dexterity Martial Artists will hands down stomp a Mega-Strong Brawler.

Ladies and germs, I'm not sure how many of you have ever actually been in a knock down, drag out, back alley brawl, but I have. I can not attest to how super people might do it, but with three forms of martial arts training and 15 years experience with fighting for practice and sport, I can tell you all, honestly:

It is not about how fast or how strong you are.

I know, that pretty much means that both Strength and Dexterity are useless, but it's true. It's honestly wits and intellect that win a fight, everything else is just the application of force and applied experience.

Unfortunately we have a mechanic to work around and that mechanic is honestly centered around "fast people never lose". Argue that if you like, but statistically it's there, and I find those statistics to be bullshit.

I've several Wits and Intelligence Enhancements that turn super smart characters into brawling and MA powerhouses too, but for now I'm trying balance the Strength/Dexterity issue.

[Kazuo]

The first thing I'm going to say is that, frankly, I'm not really all that impressed by this recurring attitude of, "Hey! That's not fair! That [power/enhancements/whatever] wasn't available when I created my PC! I wanna do-over!!!"

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, because I don't mean it to. But seriously, myself, Dawn, Ein, Rev and a couple of others are the only ones who've had characters here long enough to really have a right to complain about that - and none of us are!

I know I've been gone for a while, but I was around and active in 200x (was one of the moderators, in fact) when some of the most drastic and far-reaching changes to what was, and what was not allowed were put into effect. Dawn's been here and more or less active the entire time. So far as I know, neither of us have ever once asked for or considered a 'respec', nor to my knowledge have any of the other long-time members. We just vote, either 'yay' or 'nay', to the new stuff and then, if we like it and think it'd make a nice addition to our character's sheets, we add it on when we have the xp for it (or, back in 'ye olden days', every six months when we all got our next allotment of 4NPs).

So I have to ask, are we really all of the mindset that every single time the Sick New Hotness comes along and gets voted in as a valid addition to the setting, we all get to completely redesign our characters? Is that really what we're saying?

Because, and again I'm just being honest, not trying to be rude, that sounds a little childish (not to mention an extraordinary burden for Einherjar, who has to review every redone sheet).

[Eingar]

Originally Posted By: Revenant

Quote:

Theoretically, a nova with Mega-Dex 5 could take out a main battle tank with a 9mm pistol. Seeing as the Enhancement is supposed to represent supernatural accuracy and hitting vital spots, perhaps there could be a limitation on the types of targets it can be used against. Perhaps half-effect against non-living targets, for instance?

This came up at the table once and it turned into an ST call sort of thing. In the past Pinpoint Accuracy has been used to shoot through the peep holes in tanks and ricochet bullets into the controls and computer systems. While the result was not a grand explosion, the destroyed internal systems caused he vehicle to come to a stop, disabled.

Frankly I'm cool with halving it against objects if people think it's necessary. The people at the table were more agreeable and easier to talk to than the internet. Like I said, it was a ST Fiat call, if I felt the object had 'vitals' then I'd allow it. Our Abby equivalent of Bullseye, Jack, tossed a paperclip at a bank vault... and I laughed at him. When he flicked a BB through a key hole into a man's throat, that was different.

Thank'ee. That satisfies my concerns nicely It's pretty much the way I'd have played it. If a target has 'vitals', whether mechanical or not, they could be disabled.

Quote:

Basically, the enhancements are an attempt to balance all the Attributes out. No one Attribute should be better or worse than any other and over the years its been proven that Mega-Dexterity Martial Artists will hands down stomp a Mega-Strong Brawler.

Ladies and germs, I'm not sure how many of you have ever actually been in a knock down, drag out, back alley brawl, but I have. I can not attest to how super people might do it, but with three forms of martial arts training and 15 years experience with fighting for practice and sport, I can tell you all, honestly:

It is not about how fast or how strong you are.

I know, that pretty much means that both Strength and Dexterity are useless, but it's true. It's honestly wits and intellect that win a fight, everything else is just the application of force and applied experience.

Unfortunately we have a mechanic to work around and that mechanic is honestly centered around "fast people never lose". Argue that if you like, but statistically it's there, and I find those statistics to be bullshit.

My own two cents on this: Rev's right.

Long version: I've seen this a lot in roleplayers, whether of the TT or PbP variety. They get hung up on 'the build' and the stats, compare X's Mega-Dex to Y's Mega-Str, and formulate a judgement on relative combat capability that they then seem to feel absolves them of the need to think.

I've seen it in 'dojo-tigers' too. The new guy on a bouncer team that thinks a 2nd degree black belt in karate has prepared him for anything - except the bottle being shoved in his face while two other guys hold him down. (Luckily, the stupid bugger bottling him was holding the wrong end. A minor scar was all he got.)

Rev is right: The very best fighters in history have invariably been men and women of intelligence, whatever other personal qualities they possess or lack. From Musashi and Bruce Lee in the East to the Western 'wizards' of the Renaissance fencing gymnasiums, all of these men learned, questioned, innovated and applied their skills to a wider philosophy. If you can't outthink your opponents, then sooner or later your strength, skill and speed will count for shit, because a thinking enemy will arrange the situation to make it that way.

Your character's combat effectiveness is not all told in the dots. It's also there in the way you use those dots. Ultimately, even if Kazuo takes Pinpoint Accuracy and comes gunning after Ein with 25 auto damage on his dex hits, it makes no difference to me as Einherjar's player, because I know the real contest is taking place between Cent's brain and mine, and always was. Luck will play her part, but usually the person who deserves to win will win.

Summary: Mega Dex and Mega Strength should be levelled out. There should be, and remain even with these Enhancements, reasons to take all three mega attributes for a rounded combat character. It doesn't change the fundamental logic of the game's combat system - Anyone who wants to be a one-trick pony will find themselves dogmeat soon enough.

[Bombshell]

Okay, look, I was just saying that if these enhancements existed I probably would have made Jason differently, not that I want a respec. At this point, her attributes have been show-cased enough that I wouldn't even take a respec in this case even if it was offered.

Pinpoint Accuracy:

Why wouldn't Dispersed Organs be affected by this? Extra Damage from called shots (accuracy based damage if you will) is halved or negated. You can hit such a guy in the eye or the gut of the hand, and it makes no difference. Pinpoint Accuracy is effectively always doing called shots.

Bring It:

I did read the power.

Quote:

The character may block any incoming attack using their Stamina + Mega-Stamina + Endurance.

It specifically states block any incoming attack. The block maneuver lets you block only hand-to-hand bashing attacks. This enhancement also mentions lethal damage, which is fine. Gunfire, well, you need M-Dex 4 to normally do that, but okay. Then 'certain' quantum powers? As stated, it can block area and explosion attacks, and be used pretty much to avoid anything Dodge and Parry lets you do too. That is what I was getting at.

As I mentioned before, I'm not opposed to the idea of enhancements like these, just at a lesser effect. But I don't think a 5xp enhancement (which you can choose as a free one) should make you as good as the main effect of another attribute. Mega-Strength Brawlers might need something to help them hit, but if they want to be as accurate as the M-Dex guys, guess what, buy M-Dex. Conversely, if M-Dex guys want to hit like the hulk, they should have the strength (and M-Strength) to back it up. And this would go for any future enhancements that are made to make one Attribute act just like another one.

And please remember - you've touched on this before Rev - a PbP game is NOT the same as a Table-Top, Face-to-Face game. Players come here and see 'These are the rules!' and make their characters based on that. The narrative aspect and the lack of an ST (unless you want one) makes some things have less impact (unfortunately) and it's not as good a medium for coming up with ad-hoc judgement calls on the fly.

[WhiteRain]

Originally Posted By: Revenant

Yeah, I hate for things to be balanced. Crap. I didn't think that it might make sense and even the playing field for novas everywhere. My bad.

As far as the people who have already made their characters before the possible inclusion of these enhancements?

Cry me a river.

Look, every RP game I've ever played has included stuff AFTER I've made my character. Every time D&D 3.5 made a new book with Feats my DM didn't let me re-make my character because new stuff came out. When White Wolf released new material my ST didn't let me re-spend all my XP just because some new merit, flaw, gift, or rote was introduced.

I worked around it because I'm a grown up.

Sarcasm and veiled insults. Nice one, Rev! Way to bring the friendly atmosphere!

[Eingar]

Originally Posted By: The Bomb

Pinpoint Accuracy:
Why wouldn't Dispersed Organs be affected by this? Extra Damage from called shots (accuracy based damage if you will) is halved or negated. You can hit such a guy in the eye or the gut of the hand, and it makes no difference. Pinpoint Accuracy is effectively always doing called shots.

An oversimplification. Technically dispersed organs would make you resistant to machinegun fire under the same rationale. But it doesn't, because mechanically there needs to be some balance. For Dispersed Organs that make you more generally damage-resistant, take Invulnerability to Physical damage and claim it's because you're a gelatinous mass in humanoid shape.

Oh, and if any new players need to be corrected, or old ones for that matter, that's what the Mods are for. I have no problem flexing my green name if necessary.

Seeing as I can see this is about to devolve into an(other) endless round of people repeating their respective cases, I'm moving to put these Enhancements up for a vote for inclusion. The vocal have spoken, the POVs have been expressed. There's arguments for and against, and so it's time to move it on and vote.

[Eingar]

Okay, voting is open. I added Voracity and Cannibalism to the mix

Please note that if the Enhancements don't pass, that isn't final. A rewrite and resubmission is allowed, as long as it's not simply the rejected effect dressed differently.

[Warren Verona]

Quote:

It specifically states block any incoming attack. The block maneuver lets you block only hand-to-hand bashing attacks. This enhancement also mentions lethal damage, which is fine. Gunfire, well, you need M-Dex 4 to normally do that, but okay. Then 'certain' quantum powers? As stated, it can block area and explosion attacks, and be used pretty much to avoid anything Dodge and Parry lets you do too. That is what I was getting at.

This is a fair point, for the most part, simply because the word 'any' is incredibly broad. 'Any' should be rephrased, I know what I meant when I wrote it, but like the common problems in the Abby rule book, the wrong word is open to abuse.

Let's take suggestions on how to reword it.

As far as M-Dex 4 and blocking bullets. Mega-Dex 4 lets you dodge bullets. On the opposite side of the coin though, Mega-Stamina 5 lets you 'bounce missiles off your chest'. Anyone ever tried that with a PC? Even with Resiliency twice your Stamina/Mega-Stamina soak is 10 Lethal. A missile is [15] + 15d10. You're not bouncing shit.

Considering the source, I'm not buying the Mega-Dexterity gambit, sorry.

As stated it does not permit you to block explosion or area attacks since it states specifically that explosion and area attacks may not be blocked (only dodged, providing the person can move outside the area).

Again, the use of the word 'any', I understand, might cause one to assume that it quite literally means 'any'. That's my fault because I assume people possess common sense. I think that if the word 'any' is replaced and re-worded that should solve that issue.

Quote:

As I mentioned before, I'm not opposed to the idea of enhancements like these, just at a lesser effect. But I don't think a 5xp enhancement (which you can choose as a free one) should make you as good as the main effect of another attribute. Mega-Strength Brawlers might need something to help them hit, but if they want to be as accurate as the M-Dex guys, guess what, buy M-Dex. Conversely, if M-Dex guys want to hit like the hulk, they should have the strength (and M-Strength) to back it up. And this would go for any future enhancements that are made to make one Attribute act just like another one.

This is a very good argument, and I honestly think you're right 100%. The problem is, is that people want more versatility from a system that is incredibly good at its core, but lacking seriously in game balance.

I hate to use Super-Hero references, but I hope it helps to prove my point. Bat-Man is a baseline. Don't contest this, he is a baseline. The man is incredibly smart, but he is and always had been human. To sum it up, Bat-Man would never win against Killer Croc. He would never defeat The Flash and her most certainly would never take down Superman.

Why? Under the mechanics he can never do what they can do, ever. He can not make nova class gadgets, he can not out wit with the Mega-Wits people, he can out think the Mega-Smart people, and he can not go toe to toe with the Mega-Strong people.

Even were he a nova, The Dork Knight still would never stand a chance. Statistically, he would never stand a chance. The dice pools and soak totals would never be in his favor because the guy is only above the human average (Ones in Mega-Mentals, with maybe one in M-Dex). He'd get owned.

Same with the Hulk. This guy is NOT dexterous. Yet he's plucked Spidey from the air, caught him mid leap, and even been faster than the Spider-Man. How? Because Dexterity is too broad of a brush when it comes to speed. There is no reason why just because someone knows Kung-Fu and that uses their Dexterity score, that should also be permitted to dodge any attack that isn't also Kung-fu.

The goal, Asa, is to find a balance for the combat system that caters to all fighters. The way it's geared now is strictly to the Martial Arts ability and the Mega-Dexterity Attribute. That is not a balanced system, in fact, in 90% of PCs I see created, they never even touch the Brawl ability simply because they know they have a better chance of surviving if they take Martial Arts instead, regardless of whether or not it fits their PCs theme.

Every ability should be useful in whatever situation governs its use. As it stands, Brawl is the one ability in the Aberrant universe that is not needed, at least, in 200X. What I'm looking to do is balance the Attributes and make all possibilities for all different types of novas more broad. I'm not opposed to suggestions, but, and I'm not trying to pick on you, your suggestions are all simply "Mega-Dex should always stay on top", as they favor the continued dumbed down version Mega-Strength meeting the pique of what Mega-Dexterity can do.

I'm looking for balance without favoring one or the other.

[WhiteRain]

Quote:

Every ability should be useful in whatever situation governs its use. As it stands, Brawl is the one ability in the Aberrant universe that is not needed, at least, in 200X. What I'm looking to do is balance the Attributes and make all possibilities for all different types of novas more broad. I'm not opposed to suggestions, but, and I'm not trying to pick on you, your suggestions are all simply "Mega-Dex should always stay on top", as they favor the continued dumbed down version Mega-Strength meeting the pique of what Mega-Dexterity can do.

That is true, but these suggestions also make Mega-Dexterity even MORE superior to mega-strength. As it stands, a combat nova must buy both to be competitive, because aside from the simple chop-sockey, almost all combat-relevant skills with the exception of might (situational) and throwing (pretty useful) are either in the mental track or under dexterity.

So while yes this approach enables brawl specifically, it also even further tips the power balance towards mega dex because now a mega dextrous nova can get almost every combat relevant skill and do exactly the same amount of damage as someone relying purely on mega strength.