opnet [OpNet] Enough: A Jury of Peers

[Roma]

Will Timeslip kill someone else if they get in her way?

[Leliel]

And for every sycophantic fan, there could easily be one whacko that does not publically express their hate.

Sure, there are plenty of people there who are fascinated with novas. Fame, money, and all is there for the taking. Thing is I make more then enough to keep me living comfortably, and I don't give a damn about fame.

Can you actually say there is ZERO predjudice out there? Once more you take a statement and magnify everything out of proportion. I did not say that everyone had predjudice, just that SOME do. For such an intelligent person you sure act like a preprogrammed fucking moron at times.

Just think (if you can get the feces out of your brainpan) about all the fucking death that has been caused on this planet due to hate. But fine, it does not exist. I guess those 10+ million people who got whacked in 1939-1945 by hydrogen cyanide compounds were an illusion too. As were the people lynched in the 50's over civil rights. Not to mention that any defense lawyer that exists will try and screen juries before a trial to weed out candidates considered biased.

Mankind's heritage is hatred, you need only look in a fucking mirror to see hatred in it's purest form.

You know if someday one of those baselines blows your head off with a fucking plasma rifle, you can take solace in the fact that it was not hatred that motivated him. On that day I will laugh. Not that the world will miss your presence, after all new toilets are being manufactured every day.

Maybe you have some deep-seated need to insult everyone, but quite frankly you are starting to act like a broken sewer pipe, spewing shit all over the landscape. There is such a thing as a middle ground you know. Or maybe you don't, in the long run I don't give a fuck about what you have to say you empty headed sentient septic tank.

Have a nice fucking day.

[Mr. Crimson]

Oh, shit, what is it with you Terats. I mean, really, I don't like to generalize, I know that some of you must have two brain cells that aren't wholly dedicated to your ego, but most definetly need some basic lessons in debate. Leliel:

Quote:

I did not say that everyone had predjudice, just that SOME do.

Quote:

Though I do believe that there are baselines who are not biased or predjudiced against novas, finding some could be difficult.

What? Okay, only some are prejudiced (note spelling, please), but it would be difficult to find some who aren't. What are they, in fucking hiding or something? Do you even read what you post, or is that below you somehow?

Quote:

For such an intelligent person you sure act like a preprogrammed fucking moron at times.

And... I guess the irony of that comment is totally lost on you.

[Preston]

A further observation and the tribunal-

The purpose of the tribunal is not to ram any kind of decision down the UN/PU/T2M's throat. It is a wake up call to novas; specifically to the novas who believe that novas can, and perhaps should, live beyond the boundaries of baseline human society. Unless these novas believe they will live a lifestyle of isolation, some sort of social boundaries will have to be established beyond that of the Rule of Might.

The realities here are that:

-Timeslip, having killed another nova feels there should be some consequence for her actions.

-Current global law enforcement efforts are totally inadequate in confronting a nova of Timeslip's abilities.

-A segment of the nova population feels that something should be done, no matter how imperfect.

That being said, the charges against Timeslip should be two-fold.

1) Death: Timeslip, when confronted by Excavator, killed her. Excavator's intent should be ascertained, if possible, and the reaction of Timeslip be judged on its appropriateness.

2) Loss of Life: Timeslip has confessed to depriving (the) UN/PU/T2M of the existence and services of Excavator. Based on the findings of the first charge (the appropriateness of Timeslip's actions), what sort of penalty, if any, should be applied?

Timeslip invades what was clearly defined as UN/member nation's jurisdiction. Excavator had devoted herself to the service of Project Utopia and Team Tomorrow, who work within the UN/member nation society. No matter how we feel about these organizations, this was her choice to make. Now they have to get by without the aid of her services.

For those who think the latter distinction sounds cold, I recommend you look into the social significance of a justice system.

[Machina]

Originally Posted By: Leliel

I've never read Godwin's Law. Also, because I'm a fucking jackass, I equate some people not liking novas with a widespread conspiracy of anti-nova bias. Despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of baselines would crawl through broken glass to suck a dick that plumbed nova poon, the fact that there are any baselines in the world who dislike novas gives me license to claim discrimination. I will equate a minority of baselines disliking novas with the Holocaust and the American civil rights movement, thus proving that not only do I have nothing but contempt for baseline humanity, but also that I'm an ego-driven, narcissistic prick with zero sense of perspective or a thought in my empty fucking head. I will also completely ignore the fact that some baselines' hatred of novas might be entirely justified, since a large cross-section of novas treat baseline humanity like dogshit. I will insist that I have it rough, despite having the power of a god and noting that I recognize no authority outside of my own infantile, selfish desires.

In case you're keeping score, you just lost.

[Roma]

I hope the trial thingie works out. A lot of you are pretty pumped so I really hope it does. Good luck!

[Leliel]

Love the way how you twist someone's words to your own perceptions, and then claim that person posted your tripe.

Ever consider a career in politics?

To give a clearer example of what I truly meant:

Equating some people not liking/hating novas with a worldwide conspiracy: Rubbish. All I did was state that hate exists, and needs to be taken into account when selecting any kind of jury or tribunal. Yes, I am well aware that a minority of baselines hate novas.

Equating what hate does exist to the Holocaust or the Civil Rights struggle: I used those two examples because I wanted to show instances of race hatred that most people would be familiar with. Magnitude was never implied. There is no way that current levels of race hatred even approach the 1950's in say, the southern USA, let alone what happened in Nazi Germany. I wanted to state that those are what hatred can lead too. If I did not make that more clear then fine, my error.

Contempt for baselines: Interesting.... I can honestly say I feel no contempt towards baselines. I may feel a bit of pity for them in that they have not awakened to the latent genetic potential within them, but I was not born a nova, neither was Divis Mal for that matter (at least not as far as I know...) so I will not begrudge anyone with such contempt becuase they too, may one day reach that full potential.

Do I think Novas have moved beyond baselines? Yes. Do I believe that makes them superior to baselines? Tricky answer...frought with traps. I would say yes, but only in the sense of there are things a Nova can do that are impossible for a baseline to do. So physiologically? Yes. Mentally? Yes in some cases. Spiritually? No, not at all or in any way.

Some of that hatred (that which does exist) being justified? Since when has hatred of a group for the actions of an individual ever been justified? I can certainly see hatred for an individual based on actions, but hating Timeslip for her actions makes as much sense as say, hating all of a particular nationality because one member of that nationality killed someone or robbed a bank.

"I will insist that I have it rough, despite having the power of a god and noting that I recognize no authority outside of my own infantile, selfish desires."

I never insisted I have it rough. Quite the contrary my life is quite a happy one. I'm assuming the last part of that sentence is some sort of comment about Teras. Assuming responsibility for one's actions is one of the major parts of Teras. Quite frankly the whole "recognizing no authority" schtick is a decision for the individual to make. Despite what some would think, Teras is not a verbatim meme based upon the Null Manifesto. Rather, I would say, the Null Manifesto is a compilation of some of Divis Mal's personal interpretation of Teras.

I can move beyond the hurling of insults into the realm of actual discussion, can you?

[Leliel]

Perhaps in the part about finding unbiased baselines I should have been more specific.

By "could be difficult to find" what I should have added was "based upon the venue chosen for the trial and for juror selection". This being based on the fact that some areas of the world seem more distrustful of novas then others, and my major concern is that Timeslip does not get railroaded.

My appologies on not being more clear.

[Warren Verona]

Wouldn't say all baselines hate novas. That's just ignorant, hell they pay my salary at the moment. But from experience after having witnessed it several times, in a court of law I would have to say that it would be difficult for Timeslip to recieve a fair trial.

So the question is how does she get her right to a fair trial?

As far as the world being prejudice against Terats, I have to laugh Leliel, seriously. You guys did that to yourselves. Granted while a huge majority of you may just be peaceful and layed back just choosing to seperate yourselves from humanity, the rest of you halfwits are out killing, blowin' shit up and generally making the world suck for the rest of the humans.

Do you keep these people in check? No, you as a whole accept that behavior and encourage it as part of their own expression of individualism.

Most Terats hate me, why? Because I have more Terat assassinations under my belt than most Elites get in a career. Do I blame them for hating me? No. It's my own damn fault for bleaching that many shit stains off the underwear of humanity. Ain't no one to blame for my actions but me. Own up to it people, it's your own damn fault the people don't like you.

[z-Sean McCline]

I'd been keeping out of this for reasons that go into the "Yeah, that was fucking obvious category," but this is personal, so I'm opening my trap.

Originally Posted By: Leliel

Some of that hatred (that which does exist) being justified? Since when has hatred of a group for the actions of an individual ever been justified? I can certainly see hatred for an individual based on actions, but hating Timeslip for her actions makes as much sense as say, hating all of a particular nationality because one member of that nationality killed someone or robbed a bank.

Dude, the only viable reason for hating anyone is for the actions they personally do. Killing someone is right up there at the top of "I hate X because." Her actions have hurt other novas, and have hurt baselines, too. And this is not just about killing Excavator, I'm talking about everything she's done to degrade the lives of baselines. So yeah, the baselines have every reason to hate Timeslip, just as they have every reason to hate me. I've earned that hate; so has she.

The Terats who don't deserve their hate? A Terat who just lives the way they want, without hurting anyone, like Exile, who, as far as I know, is a great cook who doesn't hurt anyone. She lives her life without imposing on others - she doesn't deserve to be hated just because she's a Terat.

Just make sure you're defending the right Terats from hate, Leliel. Some Terats don't deserve it.

[Contessa]

Mr. McCline is right. Personally I've felt that all Terats were the same, just hatemongering and terrorists. But not all are. The longer I'm a nova the more I realize how stupid my prejudgment of them was.

Talk about a slice of humble pie.

If we could all just learn to treat people on an individual level instead of hold all accountable for the actions of one person this world would be a far better place for both Novas and Baselines.

[Leliel]

Originally Posted By: Revenant

Wouldn't say all baselines hate novas. That's just ignorant, hell they pay my salary at the moment. But from experience after having witnessed it several times, in a court of law I would have to say that it would be difficult for Timeslip to recieve a fair trial.

So the question is how does she get her right to a fair trial?

As far as the world being prejudice against Terats, I have to laugh Leliel, seriously. You guys did that to yourselves. Granted while a huge majority of you may just be peaceful and layed back just choosing to seperate yourselves from humanity, the rest of you halfwits are out killing, blowin' shit up and generally making the world suck for the rest of the humans.

Do you keep these people in check? No, you as a whole accept that behavior and encourage it as part of their own expression of individualism.

Most Terats hate me, why? Because I have more Terat assassinations under my belt than most Elites get in a career. Do I blame them for hating me? No. It's my own damn fault for bleaching that many shit stains off the underwear of humanity. Ain't no one to blame for my actions but me. Own up to it people, it's your own damn fault the people don't like you.

I cannot disagree with you as far as the results of some Terats' actions. You have tagged upon the single aspect of Teras that is both it's greatest strength and greatest weakness. Some Terats have done things I would applaud. Others have done random acts of violence that serve no purpose for the One Race other then to (as you have mentioned) stir up baseline hatred. Though I am myself loath to kill a nova, I would have no compunction against beating the royal hell out of him cause his actions hurt the One Race as a whole.

Of course, my actions would then start a whole round of chaos within the Teragen as some Terats would salute my actions, others hate me, etc...

It is something that we will have to reconcile if we ever hope to develop our own society/nation.

The single biggest barrier to developing that Nova society and laws that we seek is finding a balance between the needs of the individual and the needs of society. Now, in essence this is the same balance that civilization has be striving to reach since the dawn of time. (Well, most civilizations)

I'm glad my potential lifespan may be near-infinite, means I may actually get to see this happen before the sun becomes a red giant.

Or maybe not. But I hope we as a race show more wisdom then that.

As far as Timeslip's situation, I think she has a strong case for self-defense. But as you said a fair trial would regretably be difficult.

[Matryoshka]

And did we all forget that she herself claims to control time. I do not claim to control time, but I know enough about time to know that, there is no such thing as surprise. Her abilities, if even a fraction of what her boasting on these boards, and past evidence indicates, had enough power to advoid using deadly force. Wile I do not know the full details, I gather that she killed Excavator and then fleaed. In regards to her own statements, and the manifesto of witch she proclaims to follow she has signed her own fate. She must take the responsibility for her actions.

I can not think of any line of reasoning given her abilities that Justify the taking of another person's life in trying to save her own. The only Justifiable use of force she could have would be protecting others. Note that justifiable force does not require yourself to be at risk, but simply someone being a risk.

Timeslip, or anyone else. Did Excavator have time bending powers? If not then why did you not simply see the actions before you had so little time?

Did Excavator pose a threat to others besides yourself Timeslip?

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

All this shit over something that ain't never gonna happen. Wow.

[Gryle]

Originally Posted By: Leliel

Love the way how you twist someone's words to your own perceptions, and then claim that person posted your tripe.

Ever consider a career in politics?

Glad to see I'm not the only one on this board who sees the Emperor of Flame as having no clothes.

I'm not a Terat, at least not at present, but the philosophy of Transhumanism is an attractive one to me, if only on an intellectual level.

Originally Posted By: Revenant

As far as the world being prejudice against Terats, I have to laugh Leliel, seriously. You guys did that to yourselves. Granted while a huge majority of you may just be peaceful and layed back just choosing to seperate yourselves from humanity, the rest of you halfwits are out killing, blowin' shit up and generally making the world suck for the rest of the humans.

Do you keep these people in check? No, you as a whole accept that behavior and encourage it as part of their own expression of individualism.

My own observations over the last year suggest that this support may be withering amongst those Terats who simply wish to pursue their own agenda of mental, physical and spiritual evolution, rather than get revenge on baselines for real or imagined slights.

Time will tell on this, I suppose.

Originally Posted By: Leliel

I cannot disagree with you as far as the results of some Terats' actions. You have tagged upon the single aspect of Teras that is both it's greatest strength and greatest weakness. Some Terats have done things I would applaud. Others have done random acts of violence that serve no purpose for the One Race other then to (as you have mentioned) stir up baseline hatred. Though I am myself loath to kill a nova, I would have no compunction against beating the royal hell out of him cause his actions hurt the One Race as a whole.

Of course, my actions would then start a whole round of chaos within the Teragen as some Terats would salute my actions, others hate me, etc...

It is something that we will have to reconcile if we ever hope to develop our own society/nation.

The single biggest barrier to developing that Nova society and laws that we seek is finding a balance between the needs of the individual and the needs of society. Now, in essence this is the same balance that civilization has be striving to reach since the dawn of time. (Well, most civilizations)

I'm glad my potential lifespan may be near-infinite, means I may actually get to see this happen before the sun becomes a red giant.

Or maybe not. But I hope we as a race show more wisdom then that.

I have little personal stake in the matter as yet, but there may be more Terats like you than many would believe, Leliel. My observation is that most of them are afraid to say so simply because of the trouble that will descend on their heads.

However, this stasis and stifling of free expression cannot last in such a changeable medium as Homo Novus. The tide turns, however slowly.

[Timeslip]

I should save this for the (possible) trial, Matryoshka. But frankly, you and several others fail to understand the situation, and I would like to make clear the circumstances under which I took Excavator's life.

Yes, I am a temporal manipulator. Yes, I am exceedingly good at such. However, even I can be caught in situations where my options become limited. This was one such situation.

Excavator possessed, as you are surely aware, the ability to disintegrate matter in rather large volumes. It was, in fact, her trademark and namesake quantum expression. There is a particular "pose" that she took to use this power... and it was said pose that I found pointed at me, with her quantum signature already flaring with the power to effect my demise. No call to "Freeze!", no order to cease and desist, no mention or effort to arrest me, and indeed with no warrant for my arrest; just that promise of oblivion at her hands. I had and have every reason to believe that she was a rather small fraction of a second away from reducing me to my component atoms. I can only guess - and rather badly - at her motives in that regard.

As many of you have witnessed, it takes more than a split-second for me to step between timelines; that was simply not an option here. Also, whilst I am quite expert at a variety of temporal techniques, they all do take a bit of real, objective time in order to function... more time that I would have between her taking that distinctive pose and my death. While I do possess certain quantum defenses, they were at that time entirely insufficient to deal with the particularly vicious effects of molecular disintegration.

The unfortunate reality of the situation is that I was at mortal fear for my life, and the only option at my disposal was to, in effect, shoot her before she could shoot me. This I did. Given preparation, the matter could have been handled differently; however, my choices on that day at that time came down to attacking her or permitting myself to be killed. I rather hope that it has not become expected that we will, when faced with the promise of death, stand and meekly accept such rather than defend ourselves.

And yes, I did flee afterwards. Given that I immediately came under the concentrated attack of four of her colleagues with every intent to bring about my death, I had little choice other than to do so.

As an aside, it is worth noting that a fair part of the reason that I was caught flat-footed by Excavator was that I was busy at the moment maintaining temporal stasis on Dauntless, lest said Tomorrowite be crushed by the several tons of concrete and earth that had fallen upon her. I have no desire to see any member of the One Race killed, even those who have bought what Utopia is selling. I have heard nothing more about Dauntless since the event; as there has been no word of her loss, I can only presume - and hope - that she survived the failure of the stasis after I was driven off by her colleagues.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Originally Posted By: Timeslip

I should save this for the (possible) trial, Matryoshka. But frankly, you and several others fail to understand the situation, and I would like to make clear the circumstances under which I took Excavator's life...

You skipped some big parts there. Please back up before the q-bolts started being thrown.

How did Dauntless get trapped? Why were you there? What were you doing? Why was T2M there?

[Timeslip]

I was there, Dr. Troll, because there were reports - later substantiated - of a somewhat feral member of the One Race running amok. The hope of my colleagues and myself was that we could contain this nova and help to bring her to her senses.

My impression is that T2M's arrival on the scene was for much the same reason. In addition, there was a strike team of baselines in SpecOps gear reached the site roughly at the same time as we did. Added to the confusion was the arrival of the gentleman who has since been identified as Ares, as well as a contingent from Typhoon's sea-based intervention force.

Elements from all of these groups arrived at roughly the same time. As you might expect, chaos ensued.

Dauntless was placed in stasis by me to protect the feral nova (who was about to be pummelled by Dauntless) as well as Dauntless (who was on the receiving end of some rather efficient defensive knife thrusts from said feral nova); when the ceiling collapsed only a moment later, I maintained the stasis in order to prevent Dauntless from being crushed beneath several tons of debris.

I'll make no bones about the cause of the collapse; whatever else Tremor may be known for, subtlety and intelligence are not among his defining traits, and I was every bit as frustrated by his actions that day as were, I suspect, the rest of those who were caught in the resultant cave-in. Indeed, one of my compatriots - Helia - was killed by Tremor's ill-considered action.

[Contessa]

So, what's the big deal then? Just tell that to the Utopian people. They seem nice enough, I'm sure they'll understand. I mean, after all, we're all novas right? Accidents happen.

I'm sorry for the loss of your friend Timeslip, and that you're having to go through all this. You seem like such a nice person and no one deserves to be driven away from their home of friends over something that was a mistake.

I wish you the best of luck.

[Timeslip]

The Utopians are, from what I've gathered, not in a talking mood on the topic. No, they are more in a "bring us her head on a pike" mood. This is the first time they have lost one of their number at the hands of a Terat; they are not about to forgive or forget.

[Trooper]

Personally this sounds like a great idea. Do you have any idea the number of contracts this would generate?

[Preston]

Originally Posted By: Matryoshka

And did we all forget that she herself claims to control time. I do not claim to control time, but I know enough about time to know that, there is no such thing as surprise.

Okay ...
"I don't know what water is but I know you can't drown in it" ... is this what your saying?
Just in case you don't know, I am precognative. I can look into various possible future timelines. Figuring out what is going to happen isn't easy. Better yet, ever other precog I've talked to has their quantum expression operate differently. Even if you could manipulate time, you have no idea how easy, or difficult it could be for Timeslip.

Originally Posted By: Matryoshka

Her abilities, if even a fraction of what her boasting on these boards, and past evidence indicates, had enough power to advoid using deadly force.

Matryoshka, conflict breeds uncertainty. I so wish increased power brought increased control. In my experience, that is rarely the case.

Originally Posted By: Matryoshka

Wile I do not know the full details, I gather that she killed Excavator and then fleaed. In regards to her own statements, and the manifesto of witch she proclaims to follow she has signed her own fate. She must take the responsibility for her actions.

I can not think of any line of reasoning given her abilities that Justify the taking of another person's life in trying to save her own. The only Justifiable use of force she could have would be protecting others. Note that justifiable force does not require yourself to be at risk, but simply someone being a risk.

I hope to hell you are never in a position were you have to make a decision on what level of lethal force is justifiable, and what isn't. I'm a cop. Its a nightmare I willing choose to deal with daily. Grow up.

Originally Posted By: Matryoshka

Timeslip, or anyone else. Did Excavator have time bending powers? If not then why did you not simply see the actions before you had so little time?

Did Excavator pose a threat to others besides yourself Timeslip?

At least Timeslip bothered to answer this part of your question already. Still, wouldn't have things been easier if you had bothered to ask before you started throwing accusations around?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Originally Posted By: Timeslip

I was there, Dr. Troll, because there were reports - later substantiated - of a somewhat feral member of the One Race running amok. The hope of my colleagues and myself was that we could contain this nova and help to bring her to her senses.

What happened to the feral one?

Quote:

Dauntless was placed in stasis by me to protect the feral nova (who was about to be pummelled by Dauntless) as well as Dauntless (who was on the receiving end of some rather efficient defensive knife thrusts from said feral nova);

Ah… I realize this is armchair quarter backing, but why not just halt time on the feral one? Wouldn’t that have controlled the situation right there?

Quote:

I'll make no bones about the cause of the collapse; whatever else Tremor may be known for, subtlety and intelligence are not among his defining traits, and I was every bit as frustrated by his actions that day…

You mean “Her actions”. Uta is a woman, although I think she should wear her hair a bit longer. And she is smart… although I’ve never heard her called subtle.

[Timeslip]

Dr. Troll,

As far as I am aware, the feral nova excaped from all of the parties present; unless I have badly missed my guess, she has set herself up in East St. Louis as the Morrigan (amidst much initial - and some continued - controversy).

Yes, placing her in stasis would have been lovely. Unfortunately, I arrived on the scene just as Dauntless was about to land her blow... and just as the ceiling started to give way. By placing Dauntless - who was pinning the feral nova - in stasis, I was able to protect both from the collapse.

And actually, we're talking about two different Tremors; there is one that is most decidedly a male (and most decidedly an idiot) amongst the Harvesters.

[Gryle]

A small point at this time, given that a truly free and fair trial seems difficult to arrange, but...

Whatever the verdict, those novas who have invested time and effort (and forum space) to airing their pro-fair trial opinions are going to have to put their node where their mouth is.

Whether Utopian, Terat, or Unaffiliated, if Timeslip is acquitted of murder, all the pro-fairness people better be prepared to ensure and enforce the court's decision, or else call themselves hypocrites.

If Timeslip goes free, how many of the Independant or Utopian novas saying "I'm in favour of a fair trial" will be putting their backsides in the firing line to make sure no one tries to render the verdict moot by either killing the lady, or else arresting her themselves and doing the trial their way.

And how many Terats claiming to want a fair trial will hand Timeslip over to face the sentence decided by the court, even if they don't like it or agree with it?

If both sides come to an agreement as to the fairness of the trial before it starts, neither side should be allowed to back out of the deal once the roll of the dice becomes clear.

To make it brutally plain, this means that you, Mr Utopian Nova X, who have declared yourself in favour of a fair trial, may find yourself morally obligated to be not just speaking, but acting against P.U if they try to ignore a Not Guilty and kangaroo Timeslip into Bahrain. And vice versa for the Terats.

Just something for everyone and their soapbox to ponder: Laws need to be enforced. And enforcement means using force, not scathing memos and press releases.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Originally Posted By: Timeslip

And actually, we're talking about two different Tremors; there is one that is most decidedly a male (and most decidedly an idiot) amongst the Harvesters.

Ah. This is why we have name registries although I suppose he doesn't care.

Originally Posted By: Gryle

To make it brutally plain, this means that you, Mr Utopian Nova X, who have declared yourself in favour of a fair trial, may find yourself morally obligated to be not just speaking, but acting against P.U if they try to ignore a Not Guilty...

WE are the forces of law and order, remember? If we could grit our teeth and arrest Sluice because Tampa had an idiot for a mayor, then abiding by a fair trial should be easy.

[Leliel]

Unfortunately, I suspect the fact that you did arrest Sluice (and haul him off to Club Hell) is more weight towards people believing Utopia could not abide by a fair trial.

Supporting Rupert just because he represented "The Law" was (in my opinion) one of the worst kicks in the balls Utopia took on the social/political front.

We all know there is a difference between Law and Justice. Hopefully this situation will not end as the Tampa one did.

And to cover my ass legally: My last sentence was a hope, not a threat.

[Preston]

Gryle - if only life was that simple. It isn't. While I have more than a passing interest in legal systems and how they approach justice, I am also a member of a law enforcement body. If my municipality, state, or nation demands that I honor a warrant - legally put forth - I will do my best to execute it. Its the job, and the lifestyle, I have chosen for myself.

I enjoy freedom of speech and the unfettered exchange of ideas. I feel this has the capacity to make any student of knowledge stronger, if they will but listen, contribute to the discussion,and evaluaqte the ideas of others.

"Put up, or shut up", is usually the perview of those who prefer force over thought.

[Leliel]

But what if a law, legally passed, is unethical or immoral?

(Using the Tampa law as an example)

I realise that this is diverting into the realm of philosophy, and has no real hard and set answer, but I have to ask.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Originally Posted By: Leliel

But what if a law, legally passed, is unethical or immoral?

I think we want someone other than the police to make that call.

What, exactly should Utopia have done in this case? Refused to enforce the law because they didn't like it? Does that mean Pro-Life police can let protesters shut down abortion clinics? How about kill abortion doctors?

It's a bad thing when the police are allowed to make up the rules as they go along.

[z-Sean McCline]

Originally Posted By: Leliel

But what if a law, legally passed, is unethical or immoral?

(Using the Tampa law as an example)

I realise that this is diverting into the realm of philosophy, and has no real hard and set answer, but I have to ask.

You follow the law while you have to, and get it changed as soon as you can. Taking the law into your own hands defeats the entire reason for law.

[Preston]

Personally, I would not have arrested Sluice if ordered to. It was an illegal and immoral arrest order. The only possible charge I could see was entering the country illegally (a federal charge), and if he violated Immigration statutes, he should have been handed over to INS. It is repugnant to me that anyone would enforce a Race Law, or violate an individual's right to protest and seek redress of grievences.

I leave you with these:

"None of us are free if any of us are kept in chains."

and

"Anyone who sacrifices security for freedom deserves neither."

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

So Utopia's defense is "I was just following orders"?

Sweet.

[Matryoshka]

Preston, how short is your memory? Do you not remember why I was there in Boston to talk with them?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Originally Posted By: Preston

Personally, I would not have arrested Sluice if ordered to. It was an illegal and immoral arrest order...

Illegal now, at the time it was the law of the land. As I recall Tampa had passed a local ordinance of some sorts controlling novas. Something along the lines of "novas aren't allowed within city limits" or maybe it was "unregistered novas aren't allowed within city limits".

Sluice wasn't arrested for protesting, he was arrested for breaking the law. And yes, he was in jail for a while. Without Geryon he would have been out in a few months, with him he was a member of a terror organization. To put this into perspective, Larry Flynt has spent a number of months in jail on a number of occassions, mostly involving laws that weren't upheald either.

Originally Posted By: Lemmy Chillmeister

So Utopia's defense is "I was just following orders"?

Same as Flynt's arresters. Same as any traffic cop who pulls me over for speeding.

[Lemmy Chillmeister]

Man, Troll...you really are a gutless fuck, aren't you? And for all those brains you've got no ability to recognize that Preston was talking illegal from a state and/or federal perspective. Doesn't fucking matter if Tampa passed it. The law itself was bullshit and enforcing it was bullshit.

[Leliel]

Same as a speeding ticket.....

Novas are not permitted in this city.

Ok. Utopia and the UN shove it down everyone's throat that Novas are human beings. Ignoring my own beliefs, let's say I agree for the sake of the point you are trying to prove. How then does "Novas are not permitted in this city" differ from "Blacks/Whites/Orientals/Latinos/Amerindians/Irish/Fill in the blank are not permitted in this city" ?

Leaving out the Nova/Baseline, Utopia/Teragen angle entirely, enforcing laws like this in general leads down a VERY dark path...

[Butterfly]

This is certainly going downhill...

I have a simple comment:

If you claim that the laws do not apply to you, then those who uphold them can claim they need not apply their protection to you.

[Leliel]

Originally Posted By: Butterfly

This is certainly going downhill...

I have a simple comment:

If you claim that the laws do not apply to you, then those who uphold them can claim they need not apply their protection to you.

You seem to have missed my whole point. Some laws are patently immoral. In the case of the Tampa law it was a clear cut case of racial prejudice.

I was refering to that one law, not the actual situation Timeslip is in. It was meant as a specific example, not generic.

[Butterfly]

I was commenting on the whole thread.