opnet [OpNet] Who here still uses money?

[Muse]

I stopped using money about a year ago, and well I have to say that my life is so much more than it used to be. I enjoy my work on levels that most people do not understand. I live a life not worrying about silly things like trusting somegovernment to tell me what my time is worth. Well i just don't use money. The simplest way to express how i live,is threw the gift economy, but that is not whole true either.

Now anyone else do anything like this?

[Vixen]

I use it pretty much all the time. I can't really survive without food, shelter, and a high speed OpNet connection* and I would go mad if I became "just a housewife" while my husband did all the work.

The Bitchin Society is still a ways off, although it may be closer than we think, and until we enter a post-scarcity economic structure we'll pretty much always need money. Even if you're on a totally favors-based economy, not everyone else is, so money's involved at some point.

* may be a fib

[Muse]

Most scarcity based economies are the norm, but scarcity is fake! Or enough ranting. I build objects that do not come from resources that that have been quantified yet.

[Ghostwriter]

.......

I have a medium-level superhuman intellect, and I didn't get that.

And I don't think it's because I'm too stupid to understand.

[Muse]

The means of producing good at any level for exceeds the needs of goods at any level.Scarcity is a lie because the abundant nature of resources and means to refine said resources are more than the need or wants for said resources.

I work with things largely based of quantum.I make goods from it. I am note sure if we have any measure of how much quantum we have. It to the best my knowledge is of unknown quantity.

By the way, read my quote.

[Ghostwriter]

It's cute when the young try to prove they are smarter than their elders.

And to the best of my knowledge, sweetheart, things produced from quantum aren't permanent unless you can make only one kind of thing.

So your goods have no validity, as they are only temporary quantum constructs.

[Ptesan-Wi]

My use of money is very, very limited. With the exception of a very few things, I prefer to live from the bounty of the land.

[Muse]

Everything in the world you know is made up of three things. I can make those three things.

[Muse]

I hope you can help others achive what you have. I try to spread my way of life as much as I can.

[Lou Anne Burgess]

Only three components to everything in existence huh? I don't come from a physics or non-organic chemistry background, but unless those things are:

Organic Matter

Inorganic Matter

Hot Air

I'm not seeing it. Would you care to elucidate?

Thanks

Lou Anne

[Muse]

Protons. Electrons. Neutrons.

[Lou Anne Burgess]

Δεν ξέρετε ότι δεν μπορείτε να χωρίσετε το άτομο και να διατηρήσετε ακόμα οποιοδήποτε τύπο ατομικής γεύσης στο υλικό. Ίσως ο ισχυρισμός μου για τον καυτό αέρα ήταν περισσότερος στη διαδρομή από πραγματοποίησα.

Thanks

Dr. Burgess

[Lou Anne Burgess]

Which of the muses are you representing by the way?

Thanks

Lou Anne

[Muse]

Lou, I am myself. I can't be anyone else.

[Pandora]

What is your name supposed to represent? A Muse is an artistic inspiration personified in the form of a young woman, usually an attractive one.

I fail to see how the ability to make things out of thin air is... artistic inspiration.

[Leliel]

That depends on how much "craftsmanship" is involved in turning raw subatomic particles into a finished "product".

Whereas it might be true that quantum constructs are generally temporary in nature, selective use of such could definately help one's life out dramatically.

As far as my own views on money, I use it when I need to, but never let greed get the best of me. Greed is a worse threat to baselines and One Race alike then just about anything else. (Including Utopia)

[Muse]

That one ability of mine is not the reason for my name.

As for the part about being young, female and attractive. I may or may not be young. That is matter how one views young or old. I know that I will live a very long time so I know that I am young to me. I am female. At the risk of being cocky I would say I am attractive.

[Wakinyan]

I use and turn it back upon that which created it.

[Tempest]

Personally I don't see how a society can exist without money in some form. Are you suggesting we go back to a barter system? an exchange of goods, services and favors for other goods, services and favors?

You do realize how impractical that is right?

I have a part time job while I finish school. Afterwards I will get a full time job most likely. I will work to earn money so that I feed myself, put a roof over my head, and treat myself with the things that serve no other purpose than to make me happy. What, exactly, is wrong with that?

[Leliel]

Nothing is wrong at all. Money is not evil in and of itself, Greed on the other hand....

What is interesting (and kind of sad) is how people's opinions of others often change when they gain a great deal of wealth, as if the money somehow makes them better.

What a joke.

Money is a resource, like any other. The only difference is that in large amounts, it can act like a drug.

[The White Rat]

Greed is good. Without the motivation of greed, most of the inventions in the past 500 years would not exist. People don't invent things because it makes them feel good. They invent stuff because it is their own rational self-interest to do so.

Greed is just rational self-interest. Not everyone wants to be an altruist (or forced to be one for that matter). The Teragen movement is about rational self-interest. Whether what the individual does is rational in the eyes of others, is irrelevant. It is rational in the eyes of that individual.

[Leliel]

Perhaps I should have been more specific.

Greed (in my opinion) is bad because it focusses one's attention on the material world, and leaves less time for one's enlightenment and continued evolution.

A focus on money also can in many ways tie one to the baseline world on some level. Admittedly at this point we exist in the same world, so there will be some level of interaction, but there are some that have bought into the whole "fame and fortune" aspect of money and have become little more then baselines with nodes.

Of course, the argument could be made that this is more of a case of weak will as opposed to anything inherent about wealth, and I would tend to believe that.

[Kultra]

How do threads degenerate from a pretty, to cite the 60', pinko commie question (which was never answered), into a debate over types of economies and then into a discussion of Greed?

Well, since I finally came back online after...well, lets just say not the most enjoyable of times, I will try to answer this.

1) Muse: I can tell you that everyone, even you, creates a direct or indirect flow of money by any action they take that involves goods and services for one or more people. Your claim of not using money at all, its fake and not only fake but misinformed.

2) While you might control the sub atomic particles, you forgot about the most important particles, the ones that generated the name of our powers, I'm talking about Quark, the Quantum Particles that make up the electrons, protons and neutrons. In reality, a control over those only means that you can cause Nuclear Fission or Fusion at will, meaning that you are only good for starting a nuclear winter wherever you try to use your powers.

3) Barter based economy does not work on a global level, which is the only way for this world to evolve. Barter based economy is ok when you do it only inside a small area, or at best a city, a company, let alone a international level company cannot sustain itself on barter, money is needed to put a fixed price on things, a price we can all agree on (or not, but that's another thread).

4) Greed is good and bad, Greed is good becuase its a motivation and a driving factor, many people have done great advancements only becuase of Greed has the world evolved. Or so I think, My opinion is as good as yours.

[Machina]

Originally Posted By: J. 'Polymath' Rivera

My opinion is as good as yours.

No, it isn't. What morons call "opinions" can be filed under 'assertions' and 'preferences'. You can't argue preferences, but they don't mean jack in the real world, anyway. Nobody gives a fuck that you prefer cats over dogs. Making an assertion is making a statement about the objective nature of reality, and there, you can be dead fucking wrong. Assertions that are wrong aren't as good as assertions that are right.

[Muse]

Money motivates people... Sure does in to making money. GM does not make cars it makes money.

Studies show that money causes more determent to performance that nearly every other factor.

[Kultra]

Whoa, I really need to see those studies, maybe I can convince the guys in Human Resources to stop paying my employees don't you think?

Might as well show it to the Governments and stop them from assigning the budgets to their countries!

Muse, you have brought a new age of enlightment to the world! You win a golden medal and a year-long supply of ding-dongs, feel free to get them by pulling your weight and sustaining the world by yourself with your amazing resources.

[Muse]

The easiest way to look up these studies is a book "Punished by rewards"

[Kultra]

A single book, and if this studies are so revolutionary why would they be so ignored? The First printing of this book was in 1985, while the last print I could find was on 2001.

Citing an 32 year old book is not the way to go on a discussion, (and God help you if you mention the Bible, for I will put a hit on you for that) as weird as it sounds. The world is different, and unlike a fantasy Eden, only those people who really wish to succeede will do so.

Humans, and by direct relation, Novas are raised in a society based around competition, we compete to survive, its something that comes to us from DNA Memory all the way from our single celled ancestors.

You might not like it, but that is how things are. Unless you somehow can influence the whole of mankind and novakind at the same time, it's pretty difficult to change the reality of where you are.

[Muse]

So old is bad because it is old?

I did not show that because that is the best proof, but because it is easiest step to take. I could show you some of my works, but I wanted to start on easy step.

[Lou Anne Burgess]

Old isn't necessarily bad because it's old. In the case of Punished by Rewards, old is bad because the author's proof could barely stand up to baseline scrutiny let alone Nova scrutiny.

The book was required reading in one of my Behavioral Psychology classes so that we could see the alternate viewpoint. Even preN-Day, he was considered something of a crackpot. I won't say that everything he presented was bologna. I will say that anything you read in that book should be taken with quite a few grains of salt.

[Muse]

Lou, Behavioral Psychology was set up by people who wish for said book and reasoning to fail. You may as well Quote the Pope on why we should not be atheists.

[Pandora]

"When in doubt, believe the experts."

Girl, you live without money, good for you. It's kind of necessary to the rest of us however. Besides, there's something nice in having the money to buy what you wish, whenever you wish.

Okay, maybe I can't buy a hovercar or personal jet, but I do have a lovely estate in France and a nice little vineyard in Australia.

[HyperFocus]

There's an old Irish saying..."If you want to know what God thinks about money, just look at the people He gives it to."

Money is value extracted from the exploitation of other people for their labor. Do with it what you will, but dont lie to yourself about it. Now, if you'll exscusse me I must get back to running my multi-million dollar politcal consulting firm.

[Muse]

Believe the experts, you say? I married the expert.

[z-Sean McCline]

I've kept my mouth shut until now, but...

Originally Posted By: Muse

Believe the expects, you say? I married the expect.

Get a fucking spellchecker. Jesus! Are we supposed to believe that you're a nova of any intelligence when you can't spell? If you are a "Muse" then all you're inspiring me to do is bash in your head to see if you have more to your brain than a node. I fully expect to crack open your skull to see the node rattling around like a clapper on the end of your spinal cord. Or maybe I should consult an expert to see if that's an realistic expectation. What do you think, Muse?

I mean... my god. It was spelled for you not two posts above!

[Lou Anne Burgess]

Two things.

First, I'd say you're putting the cart before the horse in saying that Behavioral Psychology was created by people who want Mr. Kohn to fail. Most of the Behaviorist theory (and I emphasize the word theory) was developed decades before Mr. Kohn first published his book. Also, if Mr. Kohn's position is so secure vis a vis the Behaviorists, how come he's not simply the Head of a Host of experts that are working to dismantle the Behaviorist model and thus elevate Kohn's Model? In short, 1 or a few expert(s) against a field does not a sea change in that theor make. He may have a semi-valid counter-theory, and as I said, I will admit that Mr. Kohn had a few valid points...that doesn't make him an authority by any means.

As for marrying *the* expert. What expert are you referring to? What is the expert an expert in and what does that have to do with the theoretical demonization of money and reward systems?

Awaiting your reply.

Thanks

Lou Anne

[Mr. Crimson]

Hey, Kohn makes pretty good points, and his theory hasn't been so much disproved as routinely ignored. Of course, Muse is interpreting him all wrong, as Kohn (I don't think) ever said anything directly against money, per se, but rather that cooperative efforts yield greater productivity than enforced competitiveness. Which is not an entirely crazy idea, although it shouldn't be taken to the level of, say, Marxism.

[Rapido]

Competitiveness is also not so crazy an idea. Which isnt to say that it should be taken to the level of, say, free market capitalism. If you're going to blame Marx for the opression delt out by those who called themselves Marxists then one must also factor all the wars started and fueled in the name of unfettered capitalism. John Maynard Keynes has blood on his hands as well.

[HyperFocus]

((D'oh, considor that last post to have come from HyperFocus, my 2017 character...not Rapido, my T2M char))

[Matryoshka]

h but the key is to cooperate wile you compete. Such a simple idea, yet hard to really grasp.

If you only cooperate, then you stagnate in ideas and forms.

If you only compete, then you only get good at competing.

Both ways are flawed. If you cooperate with who compete with, you will both breed better foes to compete with and share the bounty cooperated resources. Still, I do not think any of you are will toe take the steps you would need to take to shift your views to a new model based on my words. Maybe you will see the meaning in my actions. Oh that would mean I would have to step of into the light. I will have to think on this.