Aberrant RPG - Luck?

[Splitmind]

So it's 6 A.M., I've got an exam in two hours, and I need to post my ideas and ask for opinions to get these ideas out of my head so I can focus. Potential alternate character idea? Who knows?

Trying to figure out a luck-based character. Really playing up the "the world tends to work in the way I want it to" angle.

I think I've figured out a variation on Disorient that's based on bad luck; I frown at you, and suddenly everything that could go wrong for you is, and you can't pull off anything. This doesn't really feel like something resisted by Willpower; I'd say that Wits can allow you to overcome the bad luck by quick thinking, though the bad luck doesn't actually vanish, so I'd say use Wits to resist it. On the one hand, this opens the door for Mega-Wits resistance. On the other hand, this might not be defeatable by a simple expenditure of Willpower. This power might have the MIRV Extra, because sometimes it's not enough to ruin just one person's day.

Second luck-based ability: Mega-Manipulation. He may not actually have a way with words, but people are more likely to do what he said simply because they're in a giving mood or because he happened to say the right thing to convince that person without any foreknowledge on the nova's part. The Self-Fulfilling Prophecy enhancement seems to work well with this: "I wish you'd fall in a hole in die" starts getting played out in real life. Perhaps the nova would use this enhancement unintentionally?

Now, the main power itself: Luck. I like its range of uses, but it seems rather... limited. I suppose that's why it's a level one power; it's good for what it does, but what it does is on a small scale, and that's assuming that the player has enough luck to get some successes on the Luck roll. Short of making a Q8 character and picking up some Mastery Extras (5 extra dice per success on my Luck roll? Okay!), I'm kind of short on ideas to make Luck a force to be reckoned with.

The Area Extra seems interesting in that it can (in fact it must) affect a group of people. But I was going more for "Luckiest man in the world," not "Best guy to take to Las Vegas." Looking more for "The entire city is subtly working to make sure that cab arrives when I reach the curb." Also looking for "Action hero who gets fired at in plain view by thirty thugs and never gets hit."

Does this just sound like a cinematic effect, or does this actually strike you as different from the Luck power as listed? Any ideas (even ones not necessarily germane to the character but still on the subject of luck and what can be done with it) are appreciated.

[Splitmind]

Perhaps some sort of Elemental Mastery: Luck? Or maybe everything I need can be covered under Entropy Control.

[Alex Craft]

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I'm kind of short on ideas to make Luck a force to be reckoned with.

Don't try. Instead, remember that it insures that you are bad at nothing. You effectively have five extra dice in every Ability and every Background, which is pretty nice. (Particularly with the Background rolls, since those typically don't get boosted by M-Atts and Powers).

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Perhaps some sort of Elemental Mastery: Luck? Or maybe everything I need can be covered under Entropy Control.

It probably is. And you can always add techniques to Entropy Control.

Notice that the Probability Corruption power in Entropy Control does almost exactly the same thing as Disorient. It has a shorter range, though, and the dice pool is small. On the other hand, it can't be resisted, and the effect doesn't attenuate over time (like Disorient does). It also dramatically increases the chance of a botch for the target.

Alex has luck-based powers, so I've done some thinking there:

• Armor: You may not get hit, and when you do, the attack tends to do less damage. Add in Force Field if you want to be able to temporarily increase your luck, and add in Deflect/Redirect if you want some extra control. Take Entropic Shield in Entropy Control, and you're starting to build a pretty seriously defended character.

• Psychic Shield or Invulnerability (Mental Powers): Both for the same reasons as Armor, etc. Any other defensive power is appropriate as well (Sensory Shield, Body Mod: Health Levels, etc). Things just don't hurt you as much as they would someone else.

• Claws: More of a combat character power, but still - you just happen to hit where it really hurts.

• Intuition (Area): Everyone around gets a kind of 'danger sense' because there's always some warning before something bad happens. That ambusher sneaking up on you steps on a beer can. The unstable floor makes a really obvious groaning sound as soon as you start to venture out onto it.

• Boost: You become better at something, but more due to luck being on your side than due to actual increase in ability.

• various debuff powers: For instance, Disrupt made Reflexive upon encountering a power that harms you or impedes your progress. Would also disrupt defensive powers (you hit someone, and their defenses break). You are lucky, and your opponents are unlucky.

• Analyze Weakness enhancement (maybe relocated to M-Manipulation): You happen to waltz past building security. Or you hit someone in just the right spot. Etc.

• Invisibility (Enhanced Effect): Not literal, and possibly weakened. When you try to get lost in a crowd, nobody will pick you out. When you don't want to be overheard, ambient noise will prevent even the most sophisticated equipment from picking up your conversation. Etc.

• Immolate: Someone who tries to attack you is just as likely to hurt himself as hurt you.

• Invulnerability (Probability Manipulation): Because nothing sucks more than being slapped down by someone with your own power suite. You're too lucky to be made unlucky.

[Splitmind]

Regarding five extra dice: Not true, Alex. You have five dice to roll, and then the number of successes you get gives you a number of dice for the rest of the scene. What that means is that on average you have two extra dice for, well for any one thing per round, unless you split up the dice among multiple things. That's not bad, but it's not the power-house you were representing.

Your invisibility sounds like Mr. Nobody, actually.

Considered armor, and I suppose that would help represent "I walk into the room, thirty people fire, I don't get hit." Though the Impervious Extra is probably necessary.

[Alex Craft]

Actually, out of combat, Luck does give you succ. It only gives you dice in a combat situation - so it really depends on what kind of character you're building.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

• various debuff powers: For instance, Disrupt made Reflexive upon encountering a power that harms you or impedes your progress. Would also disrupt defensive powers (you hit someone, and their defenses break). You are lucky, and your opponents are unlucky.

"Whenever it is useful to me" (i.e. impedes your progress) sounds somewhat broad and ill defined for reflexive.

Any (thing) that harms me sounds pretty good but would be subject to abuse *against* you. Keep in mind that this is supposed to be a reflex. Someone grabs you, that's "being impeded or harmed", so you Disrupt them, regardless of whether or not it's useful.

Some of the rest of these are a bit of a stretch, but show that a good player can justify anything.

My advise for Luck (the power, not the theme).

Buy all attributes to five. Luck is mostly useful outside of combat with any skill, so you might as well start as high as possible.

Buy all skills with at least one dot. Some skills don't allow any attempt at all unless you have at least one dot.

Get 5 dots of Luck.

Get lots of contacts and other misc background stuff. Luck buffs them.

Go back and re-read the rules for Luck. It's one of the most misunderstood powers. Duration is Perm (thus no q-cost), you roll once per scene and apply the bonus (i.e. the SUCC) as often as the ST allows.

[Splitmind]

It's true, outside of attempting to attack somebody, it gives successes, not dice. That's something I should have remembered. That does make it considerably better, although I still have to be actively trying to do something in order to make it happen (so I can't use Luck to protect me against an attack I don't see coming... though admittedly, the bonus will help me see the attack coming).

For the things I was hoping for, maybe I could buy a version of intuition that doesn't actually warn me, but instead allows me to add my luck bonus for that scene to the difficulty to hit me. Therefore, if I get hit, I get hit fair and square, but it's not that easy to hit me, even when I'm not paying attention.

Or maybe instead of a variant of Intuition, I could create Battle Luck: it can't be applied to situations aside from attacking, dodging, and other things that involve staying alive (I suppose that falling off of a building might qualify, too, so Battle Luck may be a misnomer). The trade-off is that aside from improving your rolls, Battle Luck activates even when you aren't aware of the danger, and the bonus can be applied as a difficulty penalty to people attempting to harm you. The person using Mental Blast now has to overcome your Battle Luck as well as Willpower to catch you with a surprise attack, but your luck doesn't do much against Domination. I suppose here I'm inspired by characters like Bink from the Xanth novels, and DC Comics' Deadshot. This isn't where I was planning to go with the character, but it's an interesting concept, and there's no reason he can't have regular luck (perhaps Non-Battle Luck, though that sounds somewhat weaker than Luck) alongside Battle Luck.

It seems to me that bad luck should be something that you can compensate for somewhat, especially if you're a Mega-Wits Nova, so I'm fine with using Disorient rather than Probability Corruption.

Also, rather than Armor, maybe extra Health Levels? It's just amazing how often bullets just miss my heart or I happen to land just right to survive a thirty-story fall (but not uninjured).

[Alex Craft]

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"Whenever it is useful to me" (i.e. impedes your progress) sounds somewhat broad and ill defined for reflexive.

As opposed to being able to pick a power and disrupt it. The power has to actively be imposed upon you, first. May or may not work on a power that attacks you - I'm more thinking Immobilize, Force Field, etc.

And I'd point out that nothing is too broad for Reflexive - you can program a Force Field to defend against 'that which would do me harm,' after all.

The Reflexive nature was exactly to describe that unpredictability. You could just make it Disrupt (it becomes harder for others to use their powers right, just as if you'd Disoriented them), but luck should be a little bit unpredictable.

As for the others - yeah, some were a stretch.

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Also, rather than Armor, maybe extra Health Levels?

Not a poor idea, but difficult to make work in terms of game mechanics - unless you also have a high soak, a single super-powered attack can rip through a whole hell of a lot of health.

Hm. If the Battle Luck thing is intended for purely defensive purposes, maybe just use Deflect/Redirect or Force Field with the Reflexive extra - it clicks on when you are attacked. Force Field would probably be better (it has a duration, so you wouldn't be hemorrhaging quantum by reflexively reactivating the power every time you're attacked). Or, with Force Field, it activates whenever you are able to take damage, so you can use it against falls and the like as well.

[Speed]

Not sure if this will help you in any way, but I thought I'd share the coolest use of Luck that I've seen in my games. I was a player in this particular series, not the ST, but one of the other players built a character around luck, premonition, pretercognition, and quantum construct.

Dr. Han Kevnoh, a Russian MD, was one of the neatest concepts ever, I thought. He did not at any time believe that he was a nova. His taint was moderately high, I believe, and he thought that he had been asked to the Rashoud facility to consult on the case of a good friend of his, Anna, who he believed was the nova.

In fact, she was his childhood imaginary friend, made "real" through the judicious use of quantum construct. I believe she only existed just before she would enter the room, and only until she left it. Sometimes, Dr. Kevnoh would answer his cell phone when it hadn't rung, and excuse himself from the room, "Anna wanted him for a minute"...and the room would explode in fiery chaos a moment later. She never pulled him back from the precipice, exactly, she just always needed to speak with him moments before all the bad juju started flying.

She never spoke to us, of course. As far as we were concerned, she was mute. It took a bit of time to realize that Kevnoh was in fact, crazy. But...crazy like a fox?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

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Alex Craft: ...nothing is too broad for Reflexive –

True, but misses the point. If it is too broad, then you end up burning through your pool with false alarms. You probably don’t want your Disrupt trying to zap locked doors, but they “impede” you just the same. Keep in mind this is a reflex, if you have to stop and think about it then it isn’t reflexive. As such you probably *can’t* differentiate between quantum powers and other circumstances.

For example, you are terrified of fire, and your Disrupt is set to go reflexively against any flame powers you encounter. So far so good. But if you are attacked by a normal with a flame thrower, I’d expect your Disrupt to try and work against it.

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Alex Craft: ...you can program a Force Field to defend against 'that which would do me harm,' after all.

An example from the book, but one that should never have been created. How exactly are you supposed to know, must less reflexively know, which attacks are going to do you harm and which are going to bounce? The only method I can see is to NOT raise your FF and see. But if you do that, and the attack actually does damage, then by that point it’s too late. Turning on the Forcefield after you’ve taken damage doesn’t do much.

I think the idea was that Reflexive wouldn’t turn on the Forcefield if all you did was trip and fall.

And even this ignores the problem of Reflexive FF and a total surprise ambush. You don’t sense anything before you take damage. What are your reflexes responding too?

I don’t have a problem with a Forcefield that reflexively raises when ever you think it’s going to be needed, that makes a degree of sense and is even pretty useful since it means you don’t need an action to do it. But letting you turn it on retroactively doesn’t make sense for most characters, nor for the given mechanics of reflexive.

[Alex Craft]

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But if you are attacked by a normal with a flame thrower, I’d expect your Disrupt to try and work against it.

That's an extremely radical interpretation, but I suppose it's legitimate.

A reflexive FF, I would have turn on any time you are subjected to an attack capable of inflicting damage - not one that necessarily will. So, yes, your force field turns when you are punched by an overweight accountant, even if you have a soak in the twenty range. It only makes sense.

However, I have no problem with a power activating in response to something you have not perceived. To a great extent, that's what the power exists for. There's no reason it shouldn't, either, if it suits the character build - Splitmind's example of a luck power that defends against attacks of which his character is not aware is a perfect example.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Alex Craft: ...your force field turns when you are punched by an overweight accountant, even if you have a soak in the twenty range. It only makes sense.

Agreed.

Alex Craft: Splitmind's example of a luck power that defends against attacks of which his character is not aware is a perfect example.

That's what Intuition and/or Armor are for, and that's fine for the theme. What it isn't fine for is Reflexive.

Alex Craft: ...I have no problem with a power activating in response to something you have not perceived.

So Reflexive also grants omniscience?

I can slap Reflexive on Biolum and make Psiads glow, even if I have *no* way to detect them? Ditto people who might erupt, or are Project Proteus agents?

You don't consider that radical?

[Alex Craft]

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I can slap Reflexive on Biolum and make Psiads glow, even if I have *no* way to detect them? Ditto people who might erupt, or are Project Proteus agents?

I suppose that's legal, yes.

Though, I personally wouldn't allow it on the grounds that someone being who they are isn't something that acts upon you. Reflexive is intended to respond when some condition or whatever affects you. This could be an attack, but not just that someone standing next to you on the bus might erupt someday.

The extra exists, in part, to allow you to respond to an attack you could not normally respond to - in doing so, it fills a role present in a number of other games (a D&D Contingency spell, for example). It does not exist to let you 'make Psiads glow' or anything similar.

Aberrant is ever a game which requires a certain amount of common sense. If you want something with clearly delineated rules, try something else. Mutants and Masterminds, perhaps.

And just to mention:

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So Reflexive also grants omniscience? ... You don't consider that radical?

It's really lovely, the way you're putting words in my mouth and asking catch-22 questions. Can't say I care enough about this to deal with that, so I'm done.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Alex Craft: It's really lovely, the way you're putting words in my mouth and asking catch-22 questions.

I’m not trying to be offensive here and I am trying to play fair.

The Catch-22 is a natural outgrowth of the discussion. Putting words in your mouth is me trying to be sure I understand *exactly* what you are saying. What you said was I have no problem with a power activating in response to something you have not perceived. If you don’t like me calling that omniscience, or don’t think that’s the right word, then you come up with a better one (I’ll come up with a better example below).

Troll: I can slap Reflexive on Biolum and make Psiads glow, even if I have *no* way to detect them? Ditto people who might erupt, or are Project Proteus agents?

Alex Craft:I suppose that's legal, yes. Though, I personally wouldn't allow it on the grounds that someone being who they are isn't something that acts upon you. Reflexive is intended to respond when some condition or whatever affects you. This could be an attack, but not just that someone standing next to you on the bus might erupt someday.

I disagree. I don’t see how it could be legal. If you can’t tell when the condition is in play, then I don’t see how your node could know to turn it on.

Alex Craft:The extra exists, in part, to allow you to respond to an attack you could not normally respond to - in doing so, it fills a role present in a number of other games (a D&D Contingency spell, for example). It does not exist to let you 'make Psiads glow' or anything similar.

Granted, that’s an extreme example, but it’s also not very well fleshed out.

Joe Nova has Biolum, Mega-Perception + Q-Awareness, Node Spark, and is his team’s Mega-Int tactician and coordinator. “Coordinator” means (among other things) that he picks targets, makes them glow, and the rest of his group hammers them. All three times that the team has gotten badly hosed it’s been because of various uses of Disrupt. All three times he hasn’t been able to ID the offending nova quick enough to make a difference.

What he wants to buy is Biolum + Reflexive: Anyone with the power Disrupt. As written/desired, Joe’s desired power will Illuminate Psiads who have that power… even though Joe has *no* way to ID them or relevant sense.

So, is it legal? Probably Yes, it’s in theme for Joe (which is big for me). The real question is what effect does the power have?

1) Can he illuminate psiads and/or novas where he doesn’t have the knowledge to do so?

2) Does the power just illuminate novas as soon as he scans them?

[Fortune's Son]

Holographic universe.

Joe doesn't need to know they're psiads. To achieve this effect; his node needs to be able to plug into the universe (check), transfer information with the universe (check), and for the universe to recognize the conditon of "psiad" (check with the condition there's either a simple relevant go/no go to to being a "psiad" or the psi be overtly aware they are a "psiad").

Theme is big for you while for me its consistent logic. I want to know there's a reason why Joe erupted with Reflexive and is concerned on a conscious level about the existence of psiads.

Bowing out of the conversation now...

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
1) Can he illuminate psiads and/or novas where he doesn’t have the knowledge to do so?
2) Does the power just illuminate novas as soon as he scans them?

Perhaps it is better to think of conditions that Reflexive should work in. Where, on this scale, should we stop?

1) May only affect currently sensed and identified conditions

2) May affect conditions that a nova could identify and sense, but is not currently sensing.

3) May affect conditions that the Nova could sense, but would not be capable of identifying.

4) May affect conditions that the Nova could identify, but would not be capable of sensing.

5) May affect conditions that the Nova cannot possibly be able to sense or identify.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Chance:…To achieve this effect; his node needs to be able to plug into the universe (check), transfer information with the universe (check), and for the universe to recognize the condition of "psiad" (check with the condition there's either a simple relevant go/no go to being a "psiad" or the psi be overtly aware they are a "psiad").

Are you saying that the universe is a sentient entity, keeps track of this sort of thing, and Reflexive allows communication with it? Did I understand that correctly?

Mind you, there is some president for this. Q-Awareness, perhaps with Direct Awareness (this is Q6 or Q8). Scripture (Q6 or Q7) claims with intense meditation he can commune with the Spirit of the World or something. But both of those imply really high levels of Quantum, and Reflexive BioLum is available to Q1. And I have to say I’m not sure whether Q-Awareness (or Q-Attunement for that matter) would actually work on a Psiad who wasn’t using her power. Both of those sense quantum, or nodes, and a Psiad doesn’t have any.

Chance: I want to know there's a reason why Joe erupted with Reflexive and is concerned on a conscious level about the existence of psiads.

He didn’t, and Joe’s background and motives are above in red. What Joe is concerned about is Disruptors, but many Psiads also have disrupt.

Kirby1024:

Where, on this scale, should we stop?

1) May only affect currently sensed and identified conditions

2) May affect conditions that a nova could identify and sense, but is not currently sensing.

3) May affect conditions that the Nova could sense, but would not be capable of identifying.

4) May affect conditions that the Nova could identify, but would not be capable of sensing.

5) May affect conditions that the Nova cannot possibly be able to sense or identify.

Because we are dealing with a reflex, I lean towards sense, but not necessarily identified.

Example: A guy points a gadget at you and flame starts pouring out of it. Your Reflexive Disrupt against Flame powers should try to stop that before the rest of you figures out whether it is a quantum power, a quantum gadget, or a normal flame thrower. Arguably you might get your disrupt roll before he gets his attack roll, but even if you don’t you still get a Disrupt roll without taking an action (so you can dodge and Disrupt).

[Fortune's Son]

Troll: Did I understand that correctly?

A holographic structure doesn't require the universe be sentient. What is required for this to work is the condition triggering the reflexive response be something that can be identifiable from other events, and the perceiver be tied into the universe, which I see as a limited default condition for novas in the game. Novas don't actually accelerate time since time is a perception based on a number of factors. Novas do not spontaneously combust into green flame that subtracts heat from their surroundings. The node creates the appearance of these things by transferring information with the operating system of the universe. Think of the in-game reality as a computer game. Each novas has (some) of the cheat codes. Very Matrix for those of you that liken the game to those movies. The difference being that there is no over-arching structure to tell the nova "no" and the universe can be bent possibly to a breaking point. That might also account for some forms and flavors of taint. The idea that the object of attention would be the triggering event by awareness of his or her status as "psiad" is tossed in for completeness. It works because that person is also part of the universe therefore their awareness and perceptions form a tiny portion of the larger holographic structure. Its just more information.

You seem to be trying to build an entire mechanic from the ground up, using in-game powers to justify the results, but many canon powers already ignore this. For example, Precognition doesn't require time effect abilities or mega-intellect, yet still manages to tell the user what is about to happen.

Troll: Mind you, there is some president for this.

I know a character that speaks to the dead. The actual mechanic involved is retrocognition with some limitations and a very well described special effect. All very creative stuff, but what was required was creativity not Q8. To me, high quantum levels are about conscious control, and range or depth of the effect. But then I don't require a matter creator to have a Phd in mechanical engineering, metallurgy or chemistry in order to create a motorcycle. He or she expends quantum, rolls the dice and then we get on with the story.

Troll: What Joe is concerned about is Disruptors, but many Psiads also have disrupt.

This is what I get for trying to be subtle.

Let's try a different tact; are we talking about Aberrant patched Psiads or Trinity Psiads? Also, and as noted in the side bar, while the effect of a psi ability is functionally similar to quantum usage, they aren't the same. If Joe has no awareness of these consideration then why should he have erupted with a quantum ability to counter psiads who are not "disrupting" in the manner that a nova would?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Chance: A holographic structure doesn't require the universe be sentient. What is required for this to work is the condition triggering the reflexive response be something that can be identifiable from other events, and the perceiver be tied into the universe, which I see as a limited default condition for novas in the game.

OK, so although the universe isn’t sentient, novas can use the universe to interpret data. I.e. data you can’t perceive of type “X” is inputted, the universe transforms this into data of type “Y” which you can perceive. That seems fine for powers that are built to do this sort of thing (Precognition, Blindfighting, etc), but it seems to me that’s a big reach for Reflexive (which is plenty strong without it).

Chance: [Novas break rules] & Its just more information. You seem to be trying to build an entire mechanic from the ground up, using in-game powers to justify the results, but many canon powers already ignore this. For example, Precognition doesn't require time effect abilities or mega-intellect, yet still manages to tell the user what is about to happen.

So you don’t mind having “Reflexive” function as though it were reading people’s character sheets? Can Divis use his ability to custom make powers to buy that with Q-Bolt, Mastery x2, Homing, and set his Reflexive to “any nova who will never ‘get’ Teras” and cleanse the planet? Could he use it to cleanse all Psiads? All Utopians? Project Pro?

,,

Further, we don’t really have a choice but to build new mechanics. Blindfighting (an information gathering power) has rules for whether or not an Invisible nova can resist it and remain undetected, it has rules for when it turns on, etc. For the same points you could buy Biolum + Reflexive: Invisible Objects. This is superior to Blindfighting (it helps other people see Stealth novas, it auto-activates, it doesn’t activate when it isn’t needed). Assuming we allow the power, we need to decide under what conditions it works, and what are the rules for resisting it (or whether it can be).

My view is that Reflexive is not intended to be Precognition, Intuition, or anything else that predicts the future or gathers information. Reflexive is intended to let the character act when he doesn’t have an action, or can’t otherwise act. Reflexive Healing allows you to heal damage on yourself even if you are KO’ed. Reflexive Disrupt (Fire) allows you to try to snuff perceived attacks before they are made. Reflexive Forcefield lets you raise the forcefield if your team is attacked and/or someone is attacking you, but it doesn’t work against total surprise ambushes because by the time your power knows to turn on the forcefield you’ve already taken damage (although the ForceField does activate). Reflexive Biolum (make “X” glow) only works if you have some way of sensing “X”. Reflexive is a reflex, not a sensory power.

Chance: I know a character that speaks to the dead. The actual mechanic involved is retrocognition with some limitations and a very well described special effect. All very creative stuff, but what was required was creativity not Q8…

Agreed, but that sounds like a good use of appropriate mechanics. Retrocognition is an information gathering power, he uses it to gather information. Reflexive on the other hand, isn’t an information gathering power.

Chance: I don't require a matter creator to have a Phd in mechanical engineering, metallurgy or chemistry in order to create a motorcycle. He or she expends quantum, rolls the dice and then we get on with the story.

Not sure if the book agrees with you, but if you wanted to substitute “Drive” or “common knowledge” that’s fine. But as long as it’s on the table, let’s extend the information gathering questions about Reflexive to Matter Creation.

Would you would require a PhD in Engineering/Physics for that MC to build an AirCar in 1999?

If his girlfriend is poisoned, can he use Matter Creation to whip up the antidote, *before* anyone identifies what the poison, much less the antidote, is?

Can he use MC to create an antidote when science says there is no antidote?

[Fortune's Son]

OK, so although the universe isn’t sentient, novas can use the universe to interpret data.

Umm... Not quite. The universe is the data. The interpretation is done by the node and the mind of the nova.

The term holographic universe comes from the fact that if you take a hologram, a picture created with lasers, when you split the film you won't get halves of the picture. Rather, you'll get two complete pictures. You can do this as many times as you like and you'll always get a complete, though increasingly smaller, picture. Unlike normal film the information required to reconstruct the original image is stored in each part of the hologram. This is important because traditional science had always had a tendency to believe the best way to understand something is to take it apart into its components.

Physicist David Bohm, in response to an experiment performed by Alain Aspect, posited the apparent speratedness of particles within the universe is an illusion perpetrated by limited human senses. He believed the universe was actually holographic in nature and there was a fundamental connection between all things physical. In the universe as hologram view even the supposed constants of time and space become inconstant, because concepts such as "location" becomes a question of perception in a universe where nothing is ultimately seperate from anything else. This goes a long way in explaining nova abilities if you think about it.

Its important to remember that Bohm was talking about particals not mysticism, though the implications of a holographic universe on what we view as constants is startling. Most "constants" actually are not constant at all, merely the result of our most current and incomplete perception.

Further, we don’t really have a choice but to build new mechanics.

I'm being unclear. The problem is not that you want to build a mechanic. The problem is that you appear to be trying to create a new mechanic based on some sort of amalgram of the existing powers rather than the underlying mechanics of those powers.

Reflexive is a reflex, not a sensory power.

Yes, but you and Alex Craft are approaching the what constitutes "reflexive" and "sensory" from completely different directions. Its no wonder you couldn't reach an agreement or even a common viewpoint. Your "sensory organ" in this context is the node, which is manipulating information, i.e. reality. In a holographic universe all information is held in each component of reality no matter how finely sliced it might be, making time and space a matter of perception not physical law, then yes what Alex is describing is possible. Hence the reason I prefer a consistent and facile explanation to a theme.

Would you would require a PhD in Engineering/Physics for that MC to build an AirCar in 1999?

Depends on the character concept involved. I was PMed by someone recently, god alone knows why he or she chose me, who wanted advice on creating a character who had a genii. After verifying the understood the fundamentals of the Aberrant Game we proceeded to created the character. The moral of the story is: if you want to create an aircar that can be dissassbled by technicians and recreated using non-quantum technology then yes you should have some idea of how to construct one or a reasonable explanation for where the knowledge came from. Of course you're talking to the player that ran Wizard which means you should probably have thought about who you were asking this question of but there you go.

If his girlfriend is poisoned, can he use Matter Creation to whip up the antidote, *before* anyone identifies what the poison, much less the antidote, is?

Ask Alchemist about this one.

Can he use MC to create an antidote when science says there is no antidote?

No such thing. Science saying there is no antidote doesn't mean any there is no antidote. I assume you meant to say there was no antidote possible, which is as contradictory as asking about bringing the dead to life. The problem lies not in the desire but in the contradiction of the conditionals with which the question is posed.

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
But as long as it’s on the table, let’s extend the information gathering questions about Reflexive to Matter Creation.

Would you would require a PhD in Engineering/Physics for that MC to build an AirCar in 1999?

Depends, as always, on how he's doing it - is the person actually using Matter Creation to pull an abandoned Air Car from the future for a short period so he can use it now? Is he Creating a device that merely looks like an Air Car? Is he going to a junkyard and using Matter Creation to reconstruct a (badly running) Air Car out of the junkyard parts he finds therein? Is he even creating the Air Car, or is he using Matter Creation as a hack to simulate being able to interact with imaginary devices?

Now, in some of these circumnstances, it may be necessary for the MC to have some sort of idea of how to build one from scratch, but certainly not all of them.

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
If his girlfriend is poisoned, can he use Matter Creation to whip up the antidote, *before* anyone identifies what the poison, much less the antidote, is?

Once again, what's the context? It's possible that the MC has some sort of pre-built Miraculous Unguent, which just happens to be able to take care of all possible human toxins. In that case, sure. It's possible that the Matter Creation is not actually creating an antidote, but is creating intelligent nanites that course through the patient's body removing anything in the patient's body that's not supposed to be there, before disintegrating into harmless ions, in that case, certainly so. Always depends on the context.

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
Can he use MC to create an antidote when science says there is no antidote?

See above.

As a note, you seem to be attached to the view that quantum powers all work the same way for each individual, when in fact it's only the effect that stays constant - how that effect is reached is entirely decided by the character. It's even stated in the rulebook, several times.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Chance: The universe is the data. The interpretation is done by the node and the mind of the nova. … holographic universe… the apparent speratedness of particles within the universe is an illusion perpetrated by limited human senses. …the universe was actually holographic in nature and there was a fundamental connection between all things physical.

Problems with this:

A) Just because the data exists doesn’t imply the nova has access to it (assuming otherwise brings us back to omniscience). This is especially true when another nova is actively trying to hide that data.

I don’t see a good reason to grant access to universal knowledge by implication and then not put mechanics on it. Blindfighting can be resisted. Precognition is confusing and has to be activated. Intuition requires a roll and doesn’t grant perfect knowledge. Teleport is another good example, if you don’t know where “Fred” is, then you can’t even make a blind ‘port to him (that’s what Transmit is for).

C) In some of our examples, the data doesn’t exist yet, even assuming a Holographic Universe. The key word is “yet” as the future in abby isn’t fixed.

Troll: Further, we don’t really have a choice but to build new mechanics.

Chance: I'm being unclear. The problem is not that you want to build a mechanic. The problem is that you appear to be trying to create a new mechanic based on some sort of amalgram of the existing powers rather than the underlying mechanics of those powers.

OK, if we don’t need new mechanics, how do we deal with resisted actions? Two novas in conflict where one is trying to slip past the other’s senses and/or defenses? Example:

Nova “Joe” has Biolum + Reflexive (Invisible Objects).

Nova “T” is a Stealth Nova who is trying to sneak up on him.

Troll: Can he use MC to create an antidote when science says there is no antidote?

Chance:No such thing. Science saying there is no antidote doesn't mean any there is no antidote….

Radiation Poisoning. Joe Nova with MC has no scientific or medical background, he doesn’t understand that “Radiation Poisoning” is an injury, not a poison. He’s trying to create an “antidote” but what he really needs is the power “Healing”.

Troll: Would you would require a PhD in Engineering/Physics for that MC to build an AirCar in 1999?

Kirby1024: Depends, as always, on how he's doing it… Now, in some of these circumnstances, it may be necessary for the MC to have some sort of idea of how to build one from scratch, but certainly not all of them.

So if the definition of the power is cool enough, you’d allow it? You don’t see any contradictions between saying that and saying it's only the effect that stays constant - how that effect is reached is entirely decided by the character.?

Kirby1024: As a note, you seem to be attached to the view that quantum powers all work the same way for each individual, when in fact it's only the effect that stays constant - how that effect is reached is entirely decided by the character.

I don’t care about how the player has defined it. The book defines what effect it has. Speaking of which, technically, all powers do work the same, they all manipulate quantum. The special effects should be window dressing. Whether it’s “getting a miracle from God” or “nanites” or “altering timelines”, the effect is supposed to be the same for the same power. Player-A shouldn’t get more cool stuff and in game advantages just because of his power theme definition.

Troll': If his girlfriend is poisoned, can he use Matter Creation to whip up the antidote, *before* anyone identifies what the poison?

Kirby1024: It's possible that the MC has some sort of pre-built Miraculous Unguent, which just happens to be able to take care of all possible human toxins. In that case, sure. It's possible that the Matter Creation is not actually creating an antidote, but is creating intelligent nanites that course through the patient's body removing anything in the patient's body that's not supposed to be there, before disintegrating into harmless ions, in that case, certainly so. Always depends on the context.

IMHO it should NOT matter what the context is, or how someone has defined the power. If you want to use your MC power to heal people, then you should buy Healing. Assume for the moment that there are two PCs with MC. The ST shouldn’t put himself in the position where he has to say to one of the players, ”I’m sorry Joe, your definition of MC isn’t as cool as Fred’s. Although I’d let Fred cure his girlfriend, you can’t cure yours so she’s dead.

[April Rice]

Quote:

I’m not trying to be offensive here and I am trying to play fair. Putting words in your mouth is me trying to be sure I understand *exactly* what you are saying.

Yeah, that's crap, frankly. It's surprising to me that you've gone through your life without a teacher, friend, or mother telling you that's generally considered an abhorrent debate tactic. If it hasn't happened, now someone is - your debate prof would/should have jumped down your throat for that. *shrug* Nothing personal, but you should take that to heart.

Quote:

The book defines what effect it has.

Which is somewhat my point. Read the description for Reflexive. Does it say at any point that it is necessary that you have to be able to perceive something for a Reflexive power to react to it? It does not. Therefore, is it is not necessary, by the rules set down in the book.

Dear God, no! A flaw in the Aberrant rules set? *sigh*

Aberrant, whether by intent or simple sloppiness on the part of the designers, is a game in which the GM is required to take a hand in the mechanics. Sometimes this adds restrictions to the rules, and sometimes it will loosen them.

If you choose to cleave exactly to the rules in the book, that's fine, but you won't have anything even approaching a balanced set of mechanics. This is because the rules are A) full of holes and often radically unbalanced even where things are carefully described.

That said, your objections thus far seem primarily based around something else which isn't in the rules. You talk about Bioluminescence (Reflexive) a lot, but it can't be used the way you are describing. You could have it start you glowing when someone invisible is around, but not point someone out.

This is because Reflexive activates a power, but does not control it. Any power that needs direction can't be made Reflexive because Reflexive is incapable of providing that direction. You can say 'the power activates when event X happens,' but you cannot say 'the power activates in this manner when event X happens.'

Why? The description for Reflexive does not say that you can. It says it activates the power, nothing more, and extrapolating that onward is something you'd have to take up with your GM.

[April Rice]

Quote:

Dear God, no! A flaw in the Aberrant rules set?

Sorry about the sarcasm - it's not directed at you. I'm just less than entirely fond of Aberrant as a set of rules.

[Fortune's Son]

Problems with this:

A) Just because the data exists doesn’t imply the nova has access to it (assuming otherwise brings us back to omniscience). This is especially true when another nova is actively trying to hide that data.

Responses to your problems with this:

A1) Power vs power, also called a block or resisted depending on the context, and life goes on.

A2) Bad debator tactic and you should know better than to pull that card on me. The latent experienced eruption in the shortest perception of time possible, also called Plank Time (PT). He or she was one with the theoretically infinite universe also in PT. He or she couldn't deal with it while still in PT. He or she then commenced to close off options and possibilities while still in PT. Ergo; he or she was infinite, omniscient and omnipotent (not to be confused with infinite) for the shortest possible perception of time and couldn't deal with it so gave it up.

What they have access to afterwards is dependent on their character concept, i.e. what the nova chose to retain and how they chose to see reality. Hence the reason I wanted to know why Joe was concerned with psiads and their ability to disrupt his quantum abilties, which Kirby has rightly pointed to being a problem you are experiencing in semantics not game physics.

I don’t see a good reason to grant access to universal knowledge by implication and then not put mechanics on it.

You really need to watch your semantics. Assuming you mean universal knowledge as some form of omniscience, omniscience went out the window in eruption during Plank Time because the eruptee couldn't deal with it. Its probably an ego thing. If you mean universal knowledge in the form of directly accessing information content of reality, with or without the ability to modify it on the fly, then its already defined. Please consult your aberrant books in the powers and sometimes background descriptions.

P.S. That's not what transmit is for. Transmit is for altering the teleport mechanic to conform to a medium because the developers didn't give us a good way of doing it on our own. It has advantages and disadvantages depending on concept you're aiming for and what extras you're willing to spring for when allotting points.

C) In some of our examples, the data doesn’t exist yet, even assuming a Holographic Universe. The key word is “yet” as the future in abby isn’t fixed.

Newtonian view of the physics: except when speaking of nova directly editing the informational content of reality, the factors that lead to your result do exist. Therefore Joe Nova is sensing factors and making what amounts to best guess.

Quantum view of the holographic universe: past and future divided rigidly by your perception of present is a human conceit. An illusion. In the holographic universe there is objectively only an eternal "now" that human beings are incapable of perceiving. Therefore the data does exist.

"Ah! But what if I take an action based on this information that I otherwise wouldn't have taken? Doesn't this invalidate the information?"

Why yes it does. The universe will undergo a forced reorganization to incorporate the edit of information. If the reorganization is done seamlessly then it will appear the result was inevitable when all factors are finally apparent to flawed human senses and less flawed nova perceptions. If its not seamless, and this is an ST area, then it probably results in taint or other problems because you've "bent" or "broken" the universe.

OK, if we don’t need new mechanics, how do we deal with resisted actions? Two novas in conflict where one is trying to slip past the other’s senses and/or defenses?

If you want to make a house rule for your game then make it and be done with it. We both know how resisted actions work so what's the problem?

Btw, for the sake of clarity, I didn't say a mechanic wouldn't be useful. I said you appeared to be trying to make a new mechanic based on powers rather than on the underlying mechanics that describe their effect.

Radiation Poisoning. Joe Nova with MC has no scientific or medical background, he doesn’t understand that “Radiation Poisoning” is an injury, not a poison. He’s trying to create an “antidote” but what he really needs is the power “Healing”.

Again, a semantic issue. Joe Nova wants to undo something that was done to someone. How you understands it is not relevant, but how Joe Nova understands it is vitally important. Joe Nova's "antidote" does what it needs to do in order to be effective or it is not effective. Whether he calls it an antidote, a regenerative elixir or an ionic bonding eneme isn't important. Joe Nova can also see magnetic fields, laylines or the Aurora Borealis as critical to human health and undoing the damage that was done. Because that's how Joe Nova perceives the universe, that's how the universe works.

For Joe Nova anyway.

Speaking of which, technically, all powers do work the same, they all manipulate quantum.

Yes that's right. All they do is ignore the laws of physics and change reality on a whim. Nothing to see here, just keep moving .

You have a real gift for understatement.

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

Originally posted by April Rice:
Sorry about the sarcasm - it's not directed at you.

I didn't mind it at all.

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
So if the definition of the power is cool enough, you’d allow it? You don’t see any contradictions between saying that and saying it's only the effect that stays constant - how that effect is reached is entirely decided by the character.?

There isn't a contradiction anyway, but you are misrepresenting what I'm saying as well. I did not claim "if the concept is cool you can have it", I claimed "If the concept doesn't logically require something, then logically you shouldn't need to deal with it".

If a character is using Matter Creation to build item-like simulacra, that are not actually the items in question, then there is no real reason why he needs to know the make-up of the item. His ability does not create the item, it merely allows him to use the effect of item, something entirely different, and can be completely black-boxed - if my Imaginary Tool user makes up an imaginary Opnet cable so he can plug his laptop into an Opnet backbone, I do not need to know precisely how this works - I simply expect that when he plugs the laptop into the Opnet backbone he'll have really fast opnet access. How does he do it? Dunno. Doesn't matter. However he did it, it's done.

But of course, this could be the same of most instances of Matter Creation, if you wished. A nova who's sole ability is that he always seems to find just what he needs in his pockets I'll make the same argument for. Unless a player wants to have a concept that they feel requires them to have specialised knowledge in order to use Matter Creation, this is not something I'd force at any rate.

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
I don’t care about how the player has defined it. The book defines what effect it has. Speaking of which, technically, all powers do work the same, they all manipulate quantum. The special effects should be window dressing. Whether it’s “getting a miracle from God” or “nanites” or “altering timelines”, the effect is supposed to be the same for the same power. Player-A shouldn’t get more cool stuff and in game advantages just because of his power theme definition.

That seems to be the case in many other areas anyway. A light-based Immolate could have the extra ability that you can use it to fade out everything around it, something that a fire-based or electricity-based Immolate does not possess. A kinetic-based Quantum Bolt would seem to be able to do things that a laser-based Quantum Bolt cannot. Hell, different Elemental Animas have wildly different possible techniques, why aren't you complaining about those?

Considering that the "rules" are an idealised system that gets interpreted by the playing group during game-time, this is not a problem. A group that demands perfect equality will claim that what I have said is bupkis, and the logical consequences of their powers that are outside the power's original specification will not be considered. That's fine. A group that wants to emphasise logical consequences will agree with what I've said, and enforce such consequences rigidly, and that's fine too. Interpretation is not the responsibility of the ruleset, it's the responsibility of the group.

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
IMHO it should NOT matter what the context is, or how someone has defined the power. If you want to use your MC power to heal people, then you should buy Healing.

Of course, to me this feel unsatisfactory. If a character had invented, in-game, a laser-suture device that could be used to heal up massive amounts of damage, I could not in good conscience forbid a Matter Creator to be able to conjure one up.

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
Assume for the moment that there are two PCs with MC. The ST shouldn’t put himself in the position where he has to say to one of the players, ”I’m sorry Joe, your definition of MC isn’t as cool as Fred’s. Although I’d let Fred cure his girlfriend, you can’t cure yours so she’s dead.

I dunno, this is the general default of my group's standard play. They're built heavily on concept, not equality, so if they have specified a concept which has inherant drawbacks, I'll enforce those drawbacks, because that's what they expect. It would break their suspension of disbelief to allow, say, the nova who's only schtick is MCing simple objects to suddenly be allowed to conjure a complex object in order to save his love, unless, of course, it's some sort of power evolution that he wishes to explore (and my group would probably not have a problem with this, and I'd be happy to help the player explore these new developments).

You are making the clearly false assumption that your playstyle is the only valid one, whereas in fact there are plenty of other valid playstyles that would typically render your arguments completely moot.

[Neil Preston]

Quote:

Originally posted by Chance:
Again, a semantic issue. Joe Nova wants to undo something that was done to someone. How you understands it is not relevant, but how Joe Nova understands it is vitally important. Joe Nova's "antidote" does what it needs to do in order to be effective or it is not effective. Whether he calls it an antidote, a regenerative elixir or an ionic bonding eneme isn't important. Joe Nova can also see magnetic fields, laylines or the Aurora Borealis as critical to human health and undoing the damage that was done. Because that's how Joe Nova perceives the universe, that's how the universe works.

For Joe Nova anyway.

Not quite correct. It is how Joe Nova wants the universe to work. That is why we have to use actual powers and don't all have one mechanic called Reality Alteration, even though that's what the novas are doing.

As far as I know, Matter Creation does not allow you to Heal other people, nor is it a shortcut to Gadgeteering. They can create things that the universe allows, such as hyper-combustion engines, or the cure for AIDS, but not something that cures a lethal dose of radiation, unless such a non-gadget could exist without twisting reality.

[Fortune's Son]

Actually, I don't think that's the reason we lack a single mechanic called Reality Alteration. That more likely as to do with marketing.

I disagree on the issue you brought ,but not necessarily with your line of thinking. It depends on what you mean by "shortcut". The gadgeteering process works the way it works and MC doesn't necessarily give you an inherent edge. Neither are you precluded from using MC to attain the completion of the gadget. That gadget should work in the manner Joe envisions no matter what that entails. Cosmic energies transformed into life energy, ion bonding compound to leech away radiation coupled with energy neosporin, or just "adjusting" the quantum template to edit out the radiation and its affects. All are within the realms of possibility depending on how Joe Nova views the universe and wants to capitalize on that view.

Once the nature of reality is possible to alter, these situations are going to come up.

[Madison 'Vali' West]

None the less, we are left with a game world were being able to re-arrange molecules in the manner of Matter Creation does not allow you to heal someone. There will always be a point were theme runs afoul of mechanics ... and that is the great break between telling a good story, and playing a TT game.

[April Rice]

Quote:

None the less, we are left with a game world were being able to re-arrange molecules in the manner of Matter Creation does not allow you to heal someone.

Example: Are you or are you not capable of creating aspirin with MC?

The answer is pretty clearly yes. In that case, why can't you create a more advanced medication with MC? Nobody is speaking of using MC as Healing, but rather using MC to create a substance capable of healing someone.

Incidentally, this is a really good argument for something along the lines of Mutants and Masterminds' Alternate Power feat - you simply push the power (expend 'extra effort,' which is basically the same as maxing) in order to replicate the effect of a related power of equal strength.

[Splitmind]

Example: Are you or are you not capable of creating aspirin with MC?

Well, that does kind of vary by the character. And since I don't know of any medication even listed in any of the books that acts like the Heal power, chances are the matter creator isn't going to be familiar enough with the medicine to create it. And I really doubt that most matter creators can create something that they've never even seen before. If they have advanced understanding of chemistry and physics, then I'd say they could create something from a mental blueprint, but otherwise I think they'd probably (emphasis on "probably", because every Nova is different) need some sort of previous experience with the compound in question. As a general rule, I wouldn't allow a Matter Creator to create a working elephant if he was working only on second-hand descriptions. Unless his power was described in such a way that it would allow the mysterious and uneducated creation of elephants. But that's basically the power "Genesis."

Of course, once such a miracle drug is invented, lots of Novas will become impromptu healers, if they have money enough to have the drug onhand.

Matter Manipulation, on the other hand, should probably allow Healing as a technique. Maybe you'd need to be Q6 or so, since Healing is pretty powerful.

[Madison 'Vali' West]

Quote:

Originally posted by April Rice:
Example: Are you or are you not capable of creating aspirin with MC?

The answer is pretty clearly yes.

I agree, you can make aspirin, but there's a huge leap from making an known pain-killer to creating something that spontaneously regenerates tissue. It is not a matter of it making sense, but of mechanics. If you want your MC to be able to create the effect of Healing people, buy the Healing power and define it as an extention of your MC. Its great for staying within a theme, which is one of my favorites.

Quote:

Originally posted by April Rice:
In that case, why can't you create a more advanced medication with MC?

For the same reason you can't create Anti-Matter and Disintergrate your enemies. Can the effect be reasoned out?
Yes.
Should it be bought as a seperate power for the sake of mechanics and game balance?
Yes.

Quote:

Originally posted by April Rice:
Nobody is speaking of using MC as Healing, but rather using MC to create a substance capable of healing someone.

No. What you are talking about is having one power that allows you to do what Matter Creation does, as well as Healing. The medium may be a drug, as opposed to "laying on hands", but the game effect is identical.

Quote:

Originally posted by April Rice:
Incidentally, this is a really good argument for something along the lines of Mutants and Masterminds' Alternate Power feat - you simply push the power (expend 'extra effort,' which is basically the same as maxing) in order to replicate the effect of a related power of equal strength.

Good idea and M&M has many good points to it. Sadly, with the Aberrant system, I don't think that's allowable.

[Alex Craft]

Reasonable arguments and all, but you're still creating an artificial line. What if I use the earlier example of gadgeteering the blueprints for something (healing drug, for example), then using MC on it?

Creating aspirin replicates the as-yet-unlisted power 'pain killer,' so why can I make that?

[Kirby1024]

I should probably note than an artificial line is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes a line has to be drawn arbitrarily, and as long as it's understood that it is an arbitrary line, there's no issue.

But I would note that a lot of Quantum Powers are easily emulable (in a way) in our time with our technology. I would balk at suggestions that a Matter Creator could not create a Hang Glider (Body Mod:Wings/Patagia), Metal claw gloves (Claws), phosphorescent dust (Bioluminescence (kinda)), very dark goggles/soundproofed earmuffs (Sensory Shield), a few cubic metres of Water (Elemental Master:Water) or a Flamethrower (Quantum Bolt (kinda)). Must we eliminate all these possibilities?

I suspect that a line probably should be drawn somewhere, but the situation is not as clear-cut as one would like. There's also the note that Matter Creation provide theoretical capabilities for all these emulations, but of course, Matter Creation is success-based - hypertech would be at least 6-7 successes at possibly +1 difficulty. Doable if you've maxed out, but Matter Creation is very expensive, both in terms of Level and Q Minimum. Something designed but not yet constructed would probably be additional difficulty, though the book doesn't specify as such.

I think that if I were running a game, I'd probably restrict Matter Creation to "things built by mortal hands", and keep low-level (ie imminent) Hypertech as a Power Maxing stunt. But that still provides a massive amount of versatility to the Matter Creator, and as technology progresses, even more so. And that's my thoughts on the issue.

[Madison 'Vali' West]

Quote:

Originally posted by Alex Craft:
Reasonable arguments and all, but you're still creating an artificial line. What if I use the earlier example of gadgeteering the blueprints for something (healing drug, for example), then using MC on it?

Creating aspirin replicates the as-yet-unlisted power 'pain killer,' so why can I make that?

Simple Answer: Game Balance

Slightly more complex: In the general Mechanics for suite powers, the given techniques are usually things that duplicate level two powers, but are slightly weaker.

More Complex: Exactly why is Healing a level 3 power in the first place? Why didn't WW simply give all novas Reality Alteration and allow each player and their ST decide just what the imagination of the character could come up with as a theme?
You should be able to create a Miracle Drug, but you should be able to creat a Black Hole Generator, too ... or Weather Controlling nanites, or a Phased Plasma Inducer. You shouldn't be allowed to do so because it is unbalancing in a game mechanic's sense. It is beyond the perview of all other Level 3 powers to allow them to duplicate not just any Level 1 or 2 power, but any level 3 power as well, and to do it at will.

[Trollroot]

On the Reflexive debate, I feel that there are a lot of ways in which Refelxive can be interpreted. Despite the name, it doesn't have to be a reflex.

The power could trigger in response to precognition, or it could simply activate in a unit of Planck time. A Reflexive Force Field could be defined as a practically instant regeneration of an amount of damage, and so -whitin the context of the power- be applied after the event.

Reflexive can be a disadvantage too. The rules example of a Force Field that goes off when an attack is about to penetrate other defenses, would trigger in response to attacks it could not stop, such as mental ones, and retrigger every time ping damage was done. Costing 3 q each time.

On using Matter Creation to make antidotes etc, I feel that this should be allowable to a limited degree. If the MC character has knowledge of poisons, and can identfy the poison and antiodote, good for him. If he can't, well...

I'd say he can make aspirin, or antabus if he knows them. But not "antivenom to this unknown poison" Or any "generic antivenom"

I'd let him make first-aid equpment, bandages, etc. But that would be a lot less effective than Healing.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Alex Craft: What if I use the earlier example of gadgeteering the blueprints for something (healing drug, for example), then using MC on it?

Very likely it wouldn’t work. Blueprints do not a gadget make.

Unless the nova who made the gadget pays one point of Perm Taint (ouch), a gadget is not science but is rather a manifestation of his quantum abilities. That’s why gadgets default to only the creator being able to use it, and it’s why the gadget normally need their wielder’s juice to run.

Kirby1024: But I would note that a lot of Quantum Powers are easily emulable (in a way) in our time with our technology. I would balk at suggestions that a Matter Creator could not create a Hang Glider (Body Mod:Wings/Patagia), Metal claw gloves (Claws), phosphorescent dust (Bioluminescence (kinda)), very dark goggles/soundproofed earmuffs (Sensory Shield), a few cubic metres of Water (Elemental Master:Water) or a Flamethrower (Quantum Bolt (kinda)).

Must we eliminate all these possibilities?

Yes, we must.

A Hang Glider is not Wings. Wings won’t break in a Q-Leap.

A metal knife is not the power Claws. Claws don’t break even with M-Str 5.

Very Dark Goggles make it hard to see normal things, Sensory Shield doesn’t.

A Flamethrower does MUCH less damage than a Q5 Q-Bolt (see also MC’s damage limit).

A Matter Creator can easily create a knife, dark goggles, a hang glider, and/or a Flamethrower; but he can not snap his fingers and duplicate people’s powers. Nor should those objects be the equivalent of powers, they should be the equivalent of objects.

Kirby1024: …Matter Creation is success-based - hypertech would be at least 6-7 successes at possibly +1 difficulty.

Define “hypertech”. If you mean gadgets, then that sounds hard or impossible. If hypertech means actual advanced technology, then it just sounds hard.

Kirby1024: I think that if I were running a game, I'd probably restrict Matter Creation to "things built by mortal hands", and keep low-level (ie imminent) Hypertech as a Power Maxing stunt. But that still provides a massive amount of versatility to the Matter Creator, and as technology progresses, even more so. And that's my thoughts on the issue.

So Mr. MC can easily create nanites to repair wounds if, and only if, wound repairing nanites could be found in the local hospital? That sounds pretty workable.

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
Define “hypertech”. If you mean gadgets, then that sounds hard or impossible. If hypertech means actual advanced technology, then it just sounds hard.

Typically "stuff that's more advanced that what we got now". Not a good definition, but the one I'm aiming for. Encompasses both Gadgets and theoretical technology.

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
So Mr. MC can easily create nanites to repair wounds if, and only if, wound repairing nanites could be found in the local hospital? That sounds pretty workable.

That would be correct. I think this is a workable line, though I fully admit that it's quite arbitrary (As any decision at this level must be)

[Fortune's Son]

Hi.

I just wanted everyone to know I was still following the thread but as its gone off in another tangent than the one I entered on, I'm just observing/reading. There are some very sound ideas being generated and that's good. But originally I popped up to explain how something, actually a set of things, could be possible in the Aberrant Universe without invoking "magic". The discussion about game balance isn't bad but its a matter for TT games and STs where its necessary to codify the particular dynamic of the troupe. Since that's not where my interest lies I'll be lurking.