Aberrant RPG - Nova Prison

[Speed]

Ok, so there are more than a few Nova bad-guys out there. Yes, there are. How many of them can Utopia just cart off to Bahrain? Probably not even most of them, right? So what do the police or governments of the world do with Novas gone bad? I mean, I have ideas of what COULD be done, and that is probably the way I'll run my games. But, I want your opinions.

[Wakinyan]

There is the prison in Siberia you should consider as well.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Partly this depends on the year.

In 2008, there aren't that many nova criminals and/or heavily tainted.

A couple of dozen sounds about right.

[Hugin]

I doubt most governments could even hold novas who've crossed the line. Hell, if that's they even manage to apprehend them.

You're talking about massive billions to build something like that. One that would piss all over aspects of civil rights.

And again, remember, it's pointed out that it is so easy to make money just being a nova that the idea of the profit driven supercrimmal is laughable. That's going to reduce you to nutballs and political cases. The ones aprehended are going to be damn small. Utopia's got more than enough room. They're also the ones that 90% of the world will call in if they have nova trouble.

[Jager]

Almost certainly, lethal force is going to be the preferred method of dealing with really dangerous novas. Outside of handing them over to PU (which assumes you can take them alive), there aren't many alternatives.

Also, I see Bounty Hunting dangerous novas to be a growth industry.

[Frostbite]

Well, not necessarily,; i remember in a comic that i had read [battle Chasers if anyone cares for a title], that a large number of heavy telekenetics called the Mentu held superpowered criminals [both magically and physically] through sheer force of will. you could pul something like that i guess…

but i'm sortta on the same page as Jager there: lethal force would definaty be a serious thing that PU would have to consider… though more of a last resort than a "DIE EVIL-DOER!!"

also, as more of a more underhanded approach, PU could hire some Elites "off the record" to take care of the problem; thus keeping their hands clean, and not even scratching the whole 'ethical standings' of the whole organization.

but i guess that you could just leave it up to the wind and deal with it on a case-by-case basis.

oh well, do as you will, i guess

[Speed]

What about this Njail in Siberia...is that a Directive thing?

[Solas]

The Russian facility is indeed a Directive holding...it's essentially an abandoned mining city that's been converted and is also a holding area for novas.

The thing to remember about the Bahrain facility of PU's is that it's also the primary research facility into the second-generation novas, also known as the Children. This is where any game would be at a climax, should the characters not only find out about this facility (it gets reported on lots of conspiracy-theory websites) but get inside it or information on it.

There is however one intriguing escapee of said faciity...the child known as 'Adam', who as a BABY, teleported out of the place.

S.

[Speed]

Ok, I get that Bahrain is supposed to be this uber-secret facility. But, it was reported on CNN that Radocani was "scheduled to be entered into Project Utopia's controversial Bahrain rehabilitation center", as early as April, 2005...so how secret can it be?

[Kirby1024]

Actually, most people know that there's a Bahrain facility. What they don't know is what actually goes on down there. Everyone knows that it's their rehabilitation facility for novas that go wacko. It's good that it's there, because one thing you don't want is a wacko nova on the loose.

It's almost true from a bizarre angle...

[Ruckus]

Actually this came out in a game I run, the worlds best prison for novas the International Space Station. Depending on how you play Adaptability even the hardiest of novas would be hard pressed to return to earth especially with no means of locomotion. The second option is what JMS did in rising starts drop a nova with no locomotion power off stark naked in the middles of Antartica. No food, no communication, no nothing. The nova physiology should protect them but they have a long walk ahead of them.

[kestrel404]

The problem of imprisonment is (and always has been really), what do you do with warpers and teleporters?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Warpers can be put in a small room. If you assume Warps can't cut objects in half, then it couldn't form.

Teleporters is much harder.

1) Drug them unconscious.

2) Use other powers and/or gadgets to prevent them from using theirs. Disrupt might be made into a gadget (drug). You might be able to build a "spacial reenforcer" to prevent teleportation. High levels of telepathy might be used to make them "forget" how to teleport.

3) Knock them out, then move them to Bahrain and put them in a slowly spinning room, perhaps with a blindfold. If they don't have holographic awareness or bump of direction then any teleport they make runs the risk of them appearing inside an object.

[Ruckus]

good point Dr. Troll

[Ashnod]

I disagree with the Warp/small room bit. All it has to be is large enough for the nova to fit through it. Ergo, you create on directly underneath you, and you fall through because you choose to pass through it.

The rules also say nothing about warps not being able to overlap the surrounding environment. After all, you're ripping spatial material apart, not matter. if you open one around matter, the matter would just replace itself as the warp closes. It's the same thing you do with open air, after all, because it IS matter (air molecules) and it doesn't necessarily leave a miniature vacuum in its wake that is quickly filled when the warp dissipates.

[Magus]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
3) Knock them out, then move them to Bahrain and put them in a slowly spinning room, perhaps with a blindfold. If they don't have holographic awareness or bump of direction then any teleport they make runs the risk of them appearing inside an object.

Not to be rude but the methodology requires the troupe in question to have a particular flavor of understanding regarding teleports and warps in general. Besides which, and with number 3 in mind, if you're going to place a man in that situation and depend on either his rational thoughts about imprisonment or the probability of him dying to prevent the escape then you're probably over thinking just a touch.

If you're willing to implement these means than you should just attach the collar of explosive to his neck. He teleports/warps out and its goes boom.

[Ruckus]

With teleports and warpers, Space is still the best option. If the warp is describes as affecting space - oops- hole in the hull!

if is doesn't locking on to earth while on the moon or at a lagrange point can't be easy.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Ashnod: I disagree with the Warp/small room bit. All it has to be is large enough for the nova to fit through it. Ergo, you create on directly underneath you, and you fall through because you choose to pass through it.

My book isn’t in front of me but… I think the rules state a Warp is always 3 meters on a side, and that you can alter it only by subtracting length and adding width, or vise versa.

Ashnod: The rules also say nothing about warps not being able to overlap the surrounding environment. After all, you're ripping spatial material apart, not matter. if you open one around matter, the matter would just replace itself as the warp closes.

I have enough of a material science background to say that it doesn't work this way. If you separate something in space, the molecules on the edge will bind to each other. Effectively you are describing a warp as something that is “infinitely sharp”, i.e. one that cuts anything by separating the underlying space.

I agree a common sense view of how a warp should work would result in an “infinitely sharp” warp. However the rules disagree with this view, I assume because if it worked that way then you could use Warps to cut people/buildings/objects in half while ignoring their soak.

Psimon:… if you're going to place a man in that situation and depend on either his rational thoughts about imprisonment or the probability of him dying to prevent the escape then you're probably over thinking just a touch.

Agree this is a problem, but I don’t see an easy way around it.

Psimon: If you're willing to implement these means than you should just attach the collar of explosive to his neck. He teleports/warps out and its goes boom.

That only works if you have a way to force him to attune the bomb. Otherwise it goes boom where he was.

Ruckus: With teleports and warpers, Space is still the best option. If the warp is describes as affecting space - oops- hole in the hull! if is doesn't locking on to earth while on the moon or at a lagrange point can't be easy.

Most teleporters have Adaptability to deal with space. And it only takes 8 succ to get to the moon (I think). It’s pretty easy to build a teleport who has that kind of range. But the moon does sound like it might work for some of the weaker teleports or those who lack Adaptability.

[Ashnod]

Spatial fabric doesn't necessarily bind anything, nor separate it, depending on how you (and more importantly the nova activating it) view space.

The rules say that warps are GENERALLY 3X3, but that it can be altered one meter. This isnt' going to be 100% for all novas with the ability and there's no reason it can't be smaller if the nova doesn't want it to be that large. The problem would be making a larger hole in the fabric of spatial substance, not a smaller one.

Your view of how this all works is going to color how it affects, after all. Someone who sees all space overlapping with only perception to differentiate where something is thought to be, and their warp "shifts" their perceptions along that overlap isn't going to need a 3X3 hole every single time.

It's also strange to think that every single warp has to be 3X3, considering the every nova who develops that power is going to see it differently at the moment of either eruption or when the power is gained.

[Jager]

Stealing a page from the Forceful Personalities Book:

Reverse the bomb theory. Put an acidic substance within the person, but have the cell emit an energy that keeps the acid from activating. Don't tell the subject about the acid, just tell them that if they leave the cell, they are dead. The acid is part of their biosystem, so it goes with them.

The reality of the situation is that most legal systems can't cope with incarcerating rouge novas. They have to execute the hardened felons, and exile the rest. The cost of effectively imprisoning them is too high, if not impossible.

I can't see the Teragen taking that lying down, either.

[Jager]

Remember that on full action Warps, you add your Quantum as auto-successes. The Moon is not a good idea.

Pluto seems like a better place, at 11 successes. Even if you know were you are, you still have a rough time locating the Earth because Pluto's orbit is off-set from the rest of the solar plain. Of course, Pluto is even more expensive.

Has anyone heard anything about a node-ectomy? Is it feasible without killing the nova?

[Ruckus]

A Node ectomy is possible but expect the guy to be drooling on you afterwards

[Ruckus]

I still think the problem would be break-in by interested parties (Nova Vigilance, The Primacy, Aberants) than break outs. I assume that if you have gotten as far as trial(yeah right) and transport you have the guy doped up on mox and other drugs so that the man can't remember his name. His friends on the other hand are the problem.

[Jager]

That is a different monster entirely, and not one easily answered.

I figure one really big break out, add in some of the inmates committing some horrific atroscities, and you get Warrants of Execution, were certain novas get a "Shoot On Sight" designation.

Civil libertarians will scream, but survivors and the family/friends of victims will scream louder.

I also think a few billion dollars in bounty will bring out enough elites to make the group responsible for breaking out said convicts very uncomfortable.

[Ruckus]

very true

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

Has anyone heard anything about a node-ectomy? Is it feasible without killing the nova?

Yes. It's talked about in either the core book or the Utopia book, I think it's the core book.

It's not always successful. In many novas, by the time it is performed, the body has enough residual quantum remaining in the nervous system that the node regenerates itself.

The going theory as far as the scientists were concerned was remove it as soon as possible, because after it matures it's a crapshoot and most likely will come back.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Ashnod: Spatial fabric doesn't necessarily bind anything, nor separate it, depending on how you (and more importantly the nova activating it) view space.

Untrue. No matter how you define it, the power is going to pose some issues. You make a warp, I walk through it at a right angle to the window.

In Aberrant the easiest way to handle that is to say that this is impossible to do because the Warp's edges are "hard" (i.e. space folded back). If you go that route then any solid object the warp appears in just got seperated (because it's molecules aren't touching each other any more, they are touching the warp)

On the other hand, if we define the Warp as a "seperation in space", then we run back into the "super sharp" issue. Part of my body moved about three meters, another part did not, that is going to hurt a great deal.

Ashnod: The rules say that warps are GENERALLY 3X3, but that it can be altered one meter.

Maybe. Granted you can define it a bit differently (a circle is pretty common), but I'm not sure if you "can" shrink it's effect after it has been defined.

For example, if you have Q-Bolt + Area, you can't shrink the area. You can reduce the damage, maybe even to almost nothing. But reducing the area to almost nothing gives you a normal Q-Bolt, and you MUST use your extra.

On the other hand, it occures to me there is a simpler way to deal with this. Warp takes a while to form. If a warp forms, the jailed nova is automatically attacked and knocked unconscious.

[Magus]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
That only works if you have a way to force him to attune the bomb. Otherwise it goes boom where he was.

Me being unclear, I fear. You'll find this handy device in BrainWaves. Its been a while since I read it but as I recall, it (the explosive collar) has a rudimentary sensor for quantum and if you use juice it goes boom. Accidents can happen but if you expend juice it definitely goes boom.

I enjoy reading your discussions but without agreeing to how something works, something that is suppose to be unique to each nova in some ways, I don't see how you can make sweeping statements. Theoretically *I* could be my own warp gate and people have to walk through my outline while for me it works like teleportation. I realize that torpedoes your idea but it is valid, legal and does not unbalance the game.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:

Untrue. No matter how you define it, the power is going to pose some issues. You make a warp, I walk through it at a right angle to the window.

In Aberrant the easiest way to handle that is to say that this is impossible to do because the Warp's edges are "hard" (i.e. space folded back). If you go that route then any solid object the warp appears in just got seperated (because it's molecules aren't touching each other any more, they are touching the warp)

On the other hand, if we define the Warp as a "seperation in space", then we run back into the "super sharp" issue. Part of my body moved about three meters, another part did not, that is going to hurt a great deal.

Ashnod: The rules say that warps are GENERALLY 3X3, but that it can be altered one meter.

Maybe. Granted you can define it a bit differently (a circle is pretty common), but I'm not sure if you "can" shrink it's effect after it has been defined.

For example, if you have Q-Bolt + Area, you can't shrink the area. You can reduce the damage, maybe even to almost nothing. But reducing the area to almost nothing gives you a normal Q-Bolt, and you MUST use your extra.

On the other hand, it occures to me there is a simpler way to deal with this. Warp takes a while to form. If a warp forms, the jailed nova is automatically attacked and knocked unconscious.

That's your opinion, not necessarily the way it is.

1) You can define it however you want. The book says warps are "Typically" a certain size, and that things have to pass through it to make it work. There's nothing about having have to be a 3x3 square, nor that it is made of hard edges. To be honest, I hadn't even considered, or saw any good reason (and still don't) why warp gates would have any substance or affect on their surroundings until you brought it up.

2) I don't see limiting the size of a warp the same as negating the area affect extra. I see it more as you can create something up to this size, and it's the default because that's the easiest to envision. Anything up to that is also allowable, but what passes through has to fit and has to want to pass through. Other than that, have fun.

3) define it like correspondance in MAGE, and you're just moving perceptions along a single point and taking someone else with you. The warp gate is simply needed to make the mind believe it's happening. it's not really there at all except to facilitate the journey.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Psimon: Theoretically *I* could be my own warp gate and people have to walk through my outline while for me it works like teleportation. I realize that torpedoes your idea but it is valid, legal and does not unbalance the game.

At first glance I like this idea. From any angle someone still sees the same gate. So basically my entire concern has been eliminated (this is a good thing).

At second glance a normal nova who creates a normal gate still has to make it through the gate without being stopped (or shot, or whatever).

The above "nova gate" can't be stopped from going through it, he also can't be shot or hit or anything else since all effect just go through the gate. Since Warps can hang around for a few rounds that gives him a few rounds worth of 10+ dots of INV:Everything.

That sounds unbalanced to me.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Ashnod: To be honest, I hadn't even considered, or saw any good reason (and still don't) why warp gates would have any substance or affect on their surroundings until you brought it up.

Let’s back up a hair.

The first question is, “Do warp gates have any effect on their surrounding?”

The book implies “No”, just because this is a power that is designed for transport only. It even says something to the effect that an object needs to be able to go through the gate in order for the gate to work on it (book not here for exact terms).

OK, so if you have a dead tree trunk, and you create a warp encompassing the tree at ground level, what stops the tree from falling through to the other side?

I don’t see anything that would prevent this from happening, but it seems very broken to be able to use this power to cut the tree in half.

The only answer I can see that makes any sense is “you can’t do that”. You can’t create a warp inside a solid object, be it a tree, a person, or whatever. To be fair that seems to be a general rule for other powers as well (see also Poison, Matter Creation, etc). I see nothing that implies you can create a brick of Uranium inside someone’s stomach… although this would be a good definition for an Aggravated attack.

(To address to what degree a warp’s size can be altered I need to re-read the power.)

[Ashnod]

OK, so if you have a dead tree trunk, and you create a warp encompassing the tree at ground level, what stops the tree from falling through to the other side?

The fact that something has to either be willing to go through, or be brought through. Go back to the overlapping space/change of spatial perception example.

It doesn't cut the tree in half. The tree is still connected. It only seems to be cut in half to the eye. The spatial fabric that binds the tree together is merely stretched so thin you can't tell the difference.

[Magus]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
At second glance a normal nova who creates a normal gate still has to make it through the gate without being stopped (or shot, or whatever).

This is where you run into problems trying to sew up possibilities by using rules when the system works against you because its Story Teller instead of Champions.

Can't help you here, friend. Wrong system. The unbalancing aspects you're concerned with are present because you're trying to patch your understanding of spatial topography on a literary system without an arbitrating authority to make the final decision. Props to you for the effort but its not going to work. Every time you think you're close someone is going to do what I just did and then ask you why it can't be done.

Back to my example; if you want to hang around and be invulnerable then you get yourself invulnerability or phasing to explain/describe the effect you desire. Or failing to do that bite the bullet literally because you *are* hanging around. I realize this goes against your conception of how things should work but warp is defined by its ability for multiple teleport not how it was utilized in the experience of your game. It could be done as it was in your game because you had an arbitrating authority, the ST, and were pursuing a chronicle. If it didn't work well then the ST made an arbitration decision on that characters warp and the troupe moved on. Here you are trying to redefine the power and even cover the extensive ramifications of any possibilities that crop up because you don't have an ST to make those arbitration rulings.

On exploding loop holes; I like playing with spatial topography and the possibilities inherent in the rules of any system too but I do not allow munchinism. It doesn't matter to me how much 'sense' it makes to the player trying it since long experience has taught me that if someone argues even after you've explained why, they are not doing so because they 'don't understand'. They're doing to get their way.

You two seem to be having fun with this discussion so I'm going to refrain from making one last point and not kill the fun. Enjoy.