opnet [OpNet] Nova Legislation

[Jager]

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Jager ]

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
So Jack, were do you make your stand in all this? Do you care to share with the rest of us were your loyalties may lay?

Do I care to share?

Sure, but it's called quid pro quo, J-man. These little insights of yours are all very interesting, in a Cronkite / Marrow sort of way, but you don't give up anything. Do you have a stand? Is there anything you care about beyond the "can't we all just get along" philosophy? Or is it all one big game to you? You just being quiet long enough to figure out who the winner is going to be and then jump on the bandwagon?

Killing is wrong but you assisted in the murder of teenager whose crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Supremacists are wrong but you assist those on both sides of the MR node fence. You talk about how we need to share and play nicely but you don't give anything out willingly and conveniently disappear into the shadows whenever the discussions start to get too frank.

Hell, this is a perfect example. You espoused on 'some', 'others' and 'novas' for a while and I called you on it for providing zero information content. Your response?

"Well, gee... Tell me what you think."

Tell you what; you just finished furnishing all of us with a situation wherein a nova is supposedly treating otherwise ordinary children as genetically defective. A nova that is allegedly aborting those pregnancies as it's personally inconvenient for her to bother with them. How do you feel about that? What are you willing to do about it?

I'll give you one small insight as a freebie though, just so you can't say I don't share; I don't give a damn about loyalties at the organizational level. That's why you and the rest of the old men at this place, Terats and Uppies alike, can't figure out how to build the 'nova society' or what it's basis should be.

And just so the rest of you lurkers can't say this is off-topic;

You old-timers are so locked into your baseline upbringings or rebelling against that upbringing that even with an MR node, intellect that makes Einstein look special in the small school bus sort of way, and power of a god at your fingertips you are still can't see the problem for what it is. Groups don't rise from an organization. Get a clue or take a sociology course.

Jeez. Have any of you formed relationships beyond sex and playing house? How about families? And for all those that want to answer this by quoting that crap about sterilization and the alleged abrogation of your right to biologically reproduce and then in the same breath tell me you're gods;

You don't get it both ways.

Volley to you J-man. Put the pills down, listen to the voices in your head and then coherently tell me where you stand.

[Teknokat]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
CopyKat-Some of us simply make an effort to stay informed. In doing so I occasionally come across tidbits of information. I collect data the way some people collect stamps or old comic books. I treasure information as it reveals so much more than the surface may suggest.

For example, the young man in question is correct when he admits that his baseline status is now a thing of the past. But, mutterings have been heard that suggest that the alternitive descriptive one might assume might not be altogether accurate.

Curious, no?

My Prodigy, how well you dance!

Don't patronize me. I'm not stupid, you and I both know that (and my continued breathing proves it). I may be late to the game, but I like to think I'm playing to the best of my ability. Remember I was once one of the best Opnet researchers before I started my company, and I'm still up there. You'd be surprised at exactly what I know.

Just to give you a hint: Helsinki University, Science Library Annexe, 133.05 EUR, Vol I, Issue 10, p487-513. Don't trust the e-text, go straight to the hard copy. I suspect you'll find something rather interesting...

[Jager]

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Jager ]

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Teknokat:
My Prodigy, how well you dance!

Don't patronize me. I'm not stupid, you and I both know that (and my continued breathing proves it). I may be late to the game, but I like to think I'm playing to the best of my ability. Remember I was once one of the best Opnet researchers before I started my company, and I'm still up there. You'd be surprised at exactly what I know.

Just to give you a hint: Helsinki University, Science Library Annexe, 133.05 EUR, Vol I, Issue 10, p487-513. Don't trust the e-text, go straight to the hard copy. I suspect you'll find something rather interesting...

Not too defensive are we?

Nice, I admit it. Interesting how that data, my goodness, the entire theoretical field, is absent from academic journals.

I have a friend, Michael by name, who has come across some equally intriguing packets of data. Interesting thing this, data of a type where that kind of data should not be. A mistake? A hidden cache? The imagination reels.

Any opinions?

[Wizard]

In answer to your open question, yes some of us are forming relationships based on things other than sex or the sometimes parochial views of baseline societies. Questing into the unknown isn't just a matter of guiding genetics and physical evolutions.

You might wish to examine the analogy of the catepillar and the butterfly. Leaving the overtones of superiority out of it, the society of a race of catepillars may bear resemblance to the society of the butterflies but what are those resemblances based on? Is it based on the origins rooted in the race of the catepillars? Or is it based merely on the underlying principles of consciousness and self awareness?

To say that the butterflies are merely the next phase of the catepillar would seem more a grasping at straws by those of limited mind than anything else. Not necessarily that such would be the result of stupidity, though that's a possibility. Rather there will be those that cannot acknowledge that they are not what they believed they were. Just as some will always embrace the unknown others will fear it and demand the world meet their expectations. Tragedy waits in potential for both.

Also, the particular and very specific definition you are using when for the word 'groups' is something you may want to expound on for the benefit of the people you're talking to. I believe I understand what you mean, even agree with you on general principle, but as you saw from the reply to your question not everyone does. To be blunt; you are about to become mired in the splitting of hairs.

I leave you with one last thought;

There are those to whom the world is a complex interplay of forces. A machine or jigsaw puzzle if you will. They believe that by judiciously applying force at precise junctures they can trick the world to desired ends. To know this as true is to have achieved the essence of modern humanity.

Then there are those that understand knowledge and cogitation merely provide context. The importance of these as tools is great but they are merely tools and not the only ones available. Such as beings know that in the interplay of forces there is really only one that matters; the will guided by the perception of what is and what might be. These few are what humans sometimes call gods.

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
I am glad to know that you find the search for peaceful co-existance nothing more than the benign ramblings of a bunch of old men.

What a marvelous debate tactic. I haven't seen a stroke of such cutting verbal vigor since since high school.

I don't find anything 'benign' about the way your generation conducts it's little merry dance of circular logic. And I don't recall talking about peaceful co-existance though I can understand where someone might want to re-direct the conversation along those lines. You old timers seem to feel so much more comfortable with the same trite cliches rehashed over and over again. Is that optimism? Is that what it is? You figure if you hit the rock again it just might open up for you even though it hasn't the last ten thousand times you hit it? My advice is get a hammer or stop hitting rocks.

Just to reprise, I said;

"That's why you and the rest of the old men at this place, Terats and Uppies alike, can't figure out how to build the 'nova society' or what it's basis should be.

My one comment on your little segue is that the 'nova society' may or may not be one of peaceful co-existence. It is going to come about though whether it takes the form you want it to or not. And by the way, when you claim not to be a propagandist are you simply distinguishing between propaganda for political gain and propaganda for philosophys sake?

I hope you don't think I'm just out to bash you just because you and the other geezer's are the 'Man'. You are, and you deserve scorn for that reason alone, but this isn't about that. I talk about family and you offer me the Boshevik's? Well, isn't that just splendid. History major, huh? You seem to like playing the history and politics card.

Fine.

Using Elizabeth's definition I am, for want of a simpler decription, a god. A power unto itself. You going to lobby me? Maybe threaten to take my land? Repress my political voice? Make a UN resolution? Are we going to throw down about political strategy? What I said, and then reprised above for you, is that you old men don't even understand the question. You want to pretend your still human with some kewl juice techniques be my guest. Anything you come up with is going to apply only to those that feel the same way; that they're human plus. That being the case, I don't think you are going to be able to ascertain the answer to the question of the nova society. Which is probably a good thing if you really open up and consider it. Being other than human means the nova society isn't going to necessarily butcher or rape the baselines just because they can. That is what the baselines have done through their history, isn't it?

If you can't acknowledge the possibility that novas aren't human, then you're never going to see that just maybe it's a better thing if we aren't.

Don't try and bring this around to purity of motives though. It's not about whether you and your drinking buddies are 'good' guys or not. You don't understand me, you dare not see any viewpoint but your own, and for as 'open' as you convey yourself to be you still flame anyone whose opinions directly contradict yours.

To translate into non-spy speak; you only understand baselines.

Don't get me wrong. I freely acknowledge you are the shit. The A#1 badass shadow stalking spook of the underworld. And for those twisted little spunkies that are nothing more than jabbering monkeys with a node you are the boogie man himself. Of course that overlooks those few that aren't human anymore. Notice I said 'aren't human' as opposed to inhuman. Do you have a clue as to what to do about them?

See, I freely admit I don't get you. You're Geryon's drinking buddy but you flame spray Rod for being willing to kill. To hear you tell it, Mal's all down with your merry little band of baseline pirates but you bust on Ashnod 'cuz she doesn't agree with you. You seem to be saying some of us need to be kept from crossing the line but you're cool with a self-admitted homicidal maniac like Avenger working through his isolation issues one body at a time.

Help me out here, J-man. What's the common thread. I may not agree with you but I'm just trying to understand it. Sure, it would easy enough to chalk you up to another capricious node spark with mental problems but there has to be some rationale for this. I don't have a problem with the "live and let live" philosophy, but you only apply it selectively. Where's the line at? You don't need to justify to me, I just want to know where it is.

Jager, you seem to love the history. Are you one of those people that thinks he could have staved off WWII by killing Hitler as a child, 'cuz if you know as much about history as you seem to then you know it's not that simple. And even if it were, would you be willing to kiss off the world of today (good and bad) just to say that one arguably bad thing didn't happened.

I don't have any idea where you get the certainty of your knowledge about the future and conflict. Yeah, I've seen that "I'm from an alternate universe" crap in the archives but I'm not ready to change my world-view of reality just 'cuz a spook says so. Nothing personal but a professional elite specializing in dis-imformation is not the most reliable of sources. Even assuming you're right though, your modus operandi seems to be geared towards preventing a conflict by addressing the symptoms rather than the cause of the conflict. Just like the guy that thinks he can prevent WWII by killing Hitler.

----

As for those 'alledged abortions', what part of "I am not going to talk about it" do you not understand. A friend asked me to can it, so I will.

Umm... That would be the part where you made the claim withOUT any substantiating evidence and then clammed up but left the information up anyway. The important part of the preceding being the "left the information up anyway" portion of the comment.

You essentially said, "How do you all feel about a nova that treats otherwise ordinary children as though they are genetically defective? That has and does take action to assure that such genetically defective children are not brought to term?"

You brought it up and left it up. If you don't want to talk about Bounty fine, then take it down. Not exactly rocket science here.

Other than unsubstantiated slander of a Terat, I thought it was just a dandy hypothetical question to pose to you in order to ascertain where you stand on things. A phrase with the words 'hoist' and 'petard' in it comes to mind right about now.

---

A quick revisit to groups and family here. Yes, I think your example was reaching even for baseline societies. As for applying the example as a social dynamic based on the fact that it had a disproportionate effect on the world... Yeah, I still think your reaching. Forget that for a moment though or dismiss it as me being argumentative. I'm talking about personal relationships. Family. And before you start quoting me the stats from the Encyclopedia Britannica remember that we aren't talking about baselines. That's why I don't want to hear "Utopia sterilized me by putting chemicals in my wheaties but I'm still a god" from anyone. I got family. Not friends, not drinking buddies. Family. None of them fall under the heading of blood ties that any baseline would recognize but that's not my problem now is it?
---

Elizabeth, I like your definitions. Not certain that I agree with them but I like'em. Glad to hear somebody out there is actually hooking up with others for something besides the horizontal bop.

I am a little annoyed with that whole "you couldn't imagine" riff though. Aside from the insult to my ego, what do you know about me that justifies you making the assertion.

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: Jack Chance ]

[Teknokat]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
Not too defensive are we?

Maybe a little. You came across rather condescendingly. I dislike that intensely.

Quote:

Nice, I admit it. Interesting how that data, my goodness, the entire theoretical field, is absent from academic journals.

I have a friend, Michael by name, who has come across some equally intriguing packets of data. Interesting thing this, data of a type where that kind of data should not be. A mistake? A hidden cache? The imagination reels.

Any opinions?

A few, but if any of them have weight, there's no way I'm placing them on a public forum. Make of that as you will.

[Fortune's Son]

[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: Jack Chance ]

[Guest]

For the past few days I have been considering the things that have been written here since my first post and I suppose it all comes down to this.

Why is therre so much hostility towards one another here? Mr. Chance, I posted my questions in the spirit of debate, trying to keep as much of my personal opinions out as possible, to be objective. I believe Mr. Jager was attempting the same. Is there something wrong with doing such? Should we all just stick to our own opinions and refuse to see the issue from another perspective? Just how far is that going to get us in trying to understand one another?

I understand there is quite a bit of personal history between mebers of this electronic community but I am left wondering if all nova social environments lower themselves to this level of mud slinging?

How I long for the days when simple politesness and common curtesy will once again be fashionable.

[Jager]

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Jager ]

[Fortune's Son]

Gareth,

1. This isn't hostility though I can see where you might think it to be that. You erupted a month ago, give it some time and you begin to see that you have a new set of rules. Some of them are functionally identical to the ones you learned back when you thought you were a baseline but it's still a new rulebook.

2. I understand that the gentility and civility you seem to value so highly are more obviously present in Jager's demeanor than my own. And you're right; my manners are bad and I grieve over them on long winter evenings. I still won't tolerate attempts to manipulate, patronize or condescend to me.

I can't fault you in your observations here. Yes, Jager seems to be courteous at all times. Even when killing people or glossing over his involvement in murder, conspiracies and acts of terrorism, Jager never seemed to be anything other than the very soul of professional courtesy.

Is he a 'bad' man because he kills?

My personal opinion is that there are people out that "need killing". There are some that just can't be dealt with any other way. Is it the only answer? Is it the answer of last resort?

I personally don't know, Gareth. What do you think?

And yeah, in a fight I would rather deal with a slobbering nutter, screaming about his mission from god and the higher powers of the universe, as I place a higher value on the nutter's honesty in madness. This is, I must admit, a matter of taste.

3. Objectivity?

Gareth, I highly recommend you re-read those posts following your own again. It is my personal, and therefore highly suspect opinion, that you have confused courtesy with objectivity. These were the posts wherein Jager offered unsubstantiated allegations of murder in the name of supremacy and convenience.

4. Refusing to see the other side?

That is exactly the endeavor that I am engaged in though you don't seem to like my tone. I want to know where he stands on the issues and he's less than forthcoming of his own accord. If I thought I could get the information and answers I was looking for by asking a simple polite question then I would have done it.

5. History? The archives are filled with evidence of a 'history' between Jager and;

Apep

Ashnod

Atwight

Avenger

Cornelius

Elizabeth ne Wizard

Prodigy ne James Meehan

... but a history with me? No, there is no history between us.

6. I hope you find that world of simple politeness and courtesy that you long for. I do not believe it ever existed but that's irrelevant in your quest for it.

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Jack Chance ]

[Fortune's Son]

Sorry for the delay in replying. I was dealing with Gareth and we posted at about the same time.

You make many good points, Jager. Let's look at a couple;

Usually groups adopt the structure of respecting each others thoughts, persons, and well-being.

You're right in what you said before this and on this statement. The point I believe you consistently miss is that our very nature change the forms that respect takes. Your example of what not to do is a baseline one and made under baseline assumptions of what is 'harm' and what is 'reasonable'.

I've seen the very example you used in action and the motivation involved was one of concern. 'Course the nova on the receiving end regenerates faster than god himself but that's the point. Those 'baseline' assumptions creep into your reasoning at all levels and in accepting what is used 'only as an example' you blind yourself to the fact that you are accepting those underlying assumptions as truth.

You say baselines don't understand family groups based on something other than blood.

Actually I didn't. I said the realtionships of my family weren't based on any blood ties that a baseline would recognize. I draw your attention to the fact that I specifically said blood ties there. You jumped on a possible implication that baseline don't have the capacity for forming or appreciating relationships beyond blood. Was that because I regard myself as something other than baseline?

Truth to be told, I wanted to hear what other nova were doing. And I did NOT want to hear the same old tired Gen-Q conspiracy theory on sterilization again. In a round about way I was deliberately slapping in the face those novas that believe in their own divinity while simultaneously bitching about how someone abrogated their ability to spawn like "less evolved" critters. That's why I very bluntly told'em they don't get it both ways.

You tend to classify me with other, older novas. Why?

Nearly as I've been able to ascertain you've been around as long as there have been novas and there's even some admittedly contradictory evidence of your eruption having take place even further back than that. That doesn't really answer your question though. The answer is that the trends in your spoken opinions mirror one of the two major trends of the other Gen-Q novas. Not a baseline assumption here, J-man. A deduction based on identification of the major trends and then correlating your own publically expressed opionions to those trends.

Propaganda implies a certain "rightness of cause". I don't believe that my cause is right or just.

Hmmm... I asked this because your 'cause', as you characterize it in your public conversations, seems to be one of NOT "openness to ideas". Rather "openness to ALL ideas". On the surface this seems like a very beneficial thing except that you can be very critical of anyone not sharing that openness. Hence my question about propoganda. I can see you're not doing it for a personal or political gain but you seem to be advocating a "rightness of cause" nonetheless. You're openness to ideas is more than a little militant when applied to others that don't share that openness.

Right. Geryon and I are old friends. Do you find it hard to believe that we find the passions of our beliefs to be a unifying force.

No, I find it difficult to reconcile your tolerance of his actions with your intolerance of others having similar opinions but with whom you aren't friends. That's what I mean about it being applied selectively. It's not your friendship with Geryon or tolerance with his actions that I don't understand. It's how you can slam somebody else and call them a homicidal maniac outright. Same with Avenger but I'll add to that one in a moment.

As for Ashnod, I believed the core of our differences to be how novas and baselines should get along.

The question of Ashnod aside, which is admittedly none of my business until you or Ashnod make it my business, how can you argue integration of the species without understanding what effect that would have? Not just on the novas but on the baselines themselves.

Okay, you already know I don't think you grasp the fundamental differences of being a nova compared to a baseline. And if I'm wrong on that then I'm off base completely. When I say that you only get the baseline perspective, I am saying that you look at everything from the perspective of a baseline. You defend baselines almost automatically and I think you do it without actually looking at the overall issue. Yeah, I personally think that there are aspects of our nature we're not going to explore while living in a baseline mentality so you can say I agree with seperation. What you seem to miss is that novas integrated into baseline societies will destroy those societies.

See the thin line there?

It's not that I believe so strongly in seperation. It's that I am completely against integration.

Mal is not alright with my 'baseline pirates.' He does seem to believe that I should be allowed to explore my own possibilites, though.

This one is going to have to go by the wayside. No, I don't really believe it as you characterize it but I can't prove otherwise and you don't really care if I do believe it.

Exactly how well do you know Avenger, Jack?

A misstep on your part here. I refer you back to the qualifier "self admitted". You want to see something here deeper than what the man himself sees then you are welcome to it. All I have to go by is his own admissions and he leaves no room for doubt in what he believes himself to be. Undermining a position by calling into question my own judgement is a valid debate tactic but my judgement isn't the point here is it?

Other than that, I've already answered your question as to wherein my confusion lay.

You seem to have trouble grasping that concept even though you seem to apply it to your own life.

No, I'm trying to understand it from your perspective. I already know it from my own perspective; which areas I feel confident in and which areas are less than satisfying to me.

Not everyone that craps on you is your enemy, Jager. Don't worry about me claiming to be your friend though. That won't happen unless it's true and if it does happen you'll know me well enough to know that it's true.

Killing Hitler as a small child would make the world different, not necessarily better.

Agreed.

...the cause of this problem is the existance of novas.

See? This is where we disagree and I claim baseline mentality on your part. The "cause" of the problem is the freedom from aspects of the human state and the potential inherent in the of novas. It could have come from technology or been a purely social change. Hell, it could even have been political in nature but it wasn't. The problem is duality and the baseline have never been able to appreciate that in their long history on this planet.

Oh, they can see it; Good/Bad, Right/Wrong, God/Satan...

The list goes on way too long to even begin to touch on comprehensively. Ashnod, for as little as I know about the lady is spot on one thing when she said;

We aren't the problem.

...no hard info will be forthcoming.

No problems with what you gave, I got the answers to the questions asked. The mission isn't accomplished until you look at the situation from other than what you think of as a "baseline" perspective though.

I'm not trying insult you, Jager, and no one's figured out what I'm saying if that's all they can see. You think you understand the potential of novas because you are one. You think you're being fair to the baseline by seeing their perspective.

I don't think so.

I do think you're endangering them.

That might just be me though. I already said that for me it's not so much being for seperation as being against integration. Much like the Hitler question, having a 'good' thing isn't just counter-productive if the time isn't right. It can be down right dangerous.

[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: Jack Chance ]

[Vile Bill]

Hey you two! Knock this the fuck off right the fuck now! I for one am tired of all y'alls bickering and bitching.

Jagermister and No Chance, I only got one thing to say to y'all.

Just fucking kill each other all ready.

Gareth, boy, shut the hell up till you've been swinging Nova dick for more than a few weeks. Y'all are talking to do mighty nasty bastards in their own right and yer trying to tell them to act *nice*?

Screw that! I'm tired of this namby pamby bullshit. You two obviously hate each other's guts so why don't y'all just start blasting caps and slashing throats already? Damnit, I used to respect you Jager, you the man. I expect No Chance to try to talk, he's a slippery sonofabitch (Hell, I can't believe I didn't get you last time. How the hell'd you gettaway?)

So, lets see some blood people! Arguing is for Harvard professors and for people trying to reload. Ampwells for the winner on me!

Hey, Chancy, just in case you're still alive this weekend, just a warning. I accepted the Montez Contract. I'd hate to see you on the other side of the fence. Wouldn't want to mess your pretty clothes up with the ol Nasty Black now would we? Steer clear and I'll buy ya dinner.

Remember people, walk the earth like you got a pair.

[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Vile Bill ]

[Teknokat]

Quote:

Originally posted by Vile Bill:
So, lets see some blood people! Arguing is for Harvard professors and for people trying to reload. Ampwells for the winner on me!

Bill, Some of us happen to enjoy arguing. Besides, you can live the fun of arguing with people again and again. You can only kill a person once...

Don't stop us from fighting with our brains just 'cause you don't like using yours...
(And I don't mean that as an insult, BTW. Some people just dislike thinking more than they have to. There just happens to be very few people like that here...)

[Jager]

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Jager ]

[Cin]

Okay. I’ve been checking this out for sometime and there are a few things I have to say and/or point out.

“Force is the power from which all other power descends.”

Why are there countries and the like?

Because of force.

How do we make sure laws are obeyed?

The threat and/or use of force.

When it comes down to it, what we consider ourselves doesn’t really matter. If we choose to live in a “baseline” country then what they believe is really what matters. They feel have the right to enforce their laws on us in their country. Like it or not. If somebody kills an American citizen in New York, then guess what? All sorts of laws are going to applied to him. It doesn’t matter if he considers himself an American citizen or not. The murder was born in New York and has lived there his whole life, then by law, he is an American citizen. The baselines don’t consider us a separate species. That is what really matters. So you have a choice to make.

1) Live in a “baseline” country and live by their laws.

2) Live in a “baseline” country and do what you want. Go ahead. Break their laws. Do so and they’ll enforce their laws because they feel they have the right. You are in their country.

3) Go someplace else. Where you ask? Well, not here on Earth. Pretty much every speck of land is claimed by one country or another. So living here means you go back to choice 1 or 2. That means we need to head out, find a planet and form our own nation, whatever that may be. Novas have the ability to make places like Venus livable. Now THERE is a job for Anteus. Hehehe.

So if we want to stay here then the best option is to live by their law and work within the system. If the US of A considers you a citizen with the same rights as others, then great. Run for office. Become Senators and the like. Legislate laws to change the ways novas are treated in that country. It’s not as hard as some of you think it is. Otherwise the Directive is just going to get bigger and better funded as the various nations try to enforce their laws on us. Well there are a lot more of them than us and some novas even work with/for them. Given time, they will be able to their job effectively. That or we’ll all kill each other.

People are always afraid of that which they don’t fully understand. We frighten and/or intimidate the baselines. It doesn’t have to be that way. It just takes time, work and understanding.

~Lucinda "Caliber" McGuffy

"The worst thing a just person can do is nothing."

[Ashnod]

What many of you "live with the baselines if you feel that's what's right for you" believers are neglecting is the damage we are doing to baseline society simply be trying to be accepted as one of them.

Prodigy has stated before that separation must happen in order for the baseline nation to regain both its pride and its recognition of itself. And he's right. When was the last time you heard about any baseline athlete breaking a speed record? Or a baseline scientist coming up with any new discovery that wasn't in the field of Nova sciences?

The fact is, as long as we exist among them as faux-equals, all attention will remain on us. We will be their idols, and that is not something they will ever be able to aspire to without the proper genetic sequencing. It's not fair to them to have to live in our shadow.

Nor is it fair that we will be expected to shoulder the burden of their defense, or their exploration, or their sciences. They must relearn to rely only on themselves.

Separation. Education. And then integration. Only when both sides respect and understand the differences between us, while acknowledging our similarities, can co-existence happen.

[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: Ashnod ]

[Prof. Sydney 'Photon' Holland]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

Prodigy has stated before that separation must happen in order for the baseline nation to regain both its pride and its recognition of itself. And he's right. When was the last time you heard about any baseline athlete breaking a speed record? Or a baseline scientist coming up with any new discovery that wasn't in the field of Nova sciences?

Easy. I can think of several just in the past few years:

• 2010: Professor Daniel Fourier and Doctor Jacqueline Benman of New Mexico Institute of Technology, the creation of a new computer Algorithm that allowed them to create a English-Chinese translation matrix with 99.5% accuracy, the highest recorded before that time for a computer translator involving either of those two languages, let alone both. They have since increased the accuracy to 99.759%, and used the algorithm to increase the accuracy of many other translation software matrices. The algorithm has since become hot property, with translation devices based on the algorithm being used by diplomats all over the world, as well as new devices by De Vries, Project Utopia, and I believe the Directive.
• 2011: Doctor Esteban Mako of Madrid University, Who identified a way to increase the efficiency of hypercombustion engines by approx 4%, without nova assistance.
• This year: Professor Helmut Bierschwale of Munich University, who identified an error made by a nova geneticist, about a set of genes that was originally thought to be Junk DNA. It was actually a set of genes that influenced lower muscle development.

And this is just off the top of my head.

Admittedly, a lot of these baseline researchers get lost in the daily media, but then again, they tended to before N-day as well. I hear of them because I'm in academia myself, and tend to read a lot of scientific journals. With so much spare time on my hands (since I don't need sleep, rest or food), I read a rather diverse range of journals.

But they are out there. I mean, I was one of those baseline scientists on the cutting edge before I erupted. They don't get the attention that nova scientists do, but they are there, and they do occaisonally make an impact.

[Hugin]

Prof., far be it from me to speak for Ashnod, but I believe that you read a bit too far into what she was saying. She never stated that baselines had ceased their efforts altogether.

She asked when was the last time you *heard* of a baseline expanding human potential. You, being an academic, have a great deal more attention on the subject than most. I notice you didn't mention any baseline athletes.

When was the last time, in the last 7 years when a baseline scientist received notoriety for their work? The past 7 nobel winners in every catagory? Novas or baselines whose work was greatly dependent on Nova contributions. We are also talking about something far beyond science. We are talking about pride in one's race. A few examples. I am a Nova of diverse interests so I look around a bit. Here is what I have noticed.

Last year's sales of entertainment product. The music industry posted sales show that Novox entertainers account for 53.8 percent of all sales while only making up a total of 2.1 percent of the total number of active recording artists. In the film industry, 8 of the 10 boxoffice leaders last year either featured Nova personalities or were focused on Nova subject matter. Last year's top four best selling books? Alejandra's semiautobiographical "I Walk A Path", the ghost written memoirs of Lance 'The Stone Badass' Stryker, When Gods Die:An Investigation into the Deaths of Novas, and Memoirs of a 21st Century Grappler; Life Inside The XWF.

Did you enjoy the 2006 Olympics? Oh wait, I am sorry, I forgot. They were cancelled. Intereste in baseline sports declined to the point where coprorate sponsorship was nonexistent.

My Father, educated and upper class he may have been, but we was an avid fan of sports. NBA, NFL, NHL, you name it. I'm sorry, don't recognize those names? That's because what used to be a multibillion dollar industry in the course of a little over a decade was reduced to semi-pro status. There are still diehard fans out there, but face it this generation doesn't think athletic excellence and picture a one handed dunk from the baseline. No, they picture the Core Meltdown being performed on some sad mitoid.

You can bring up specific examples all day long Professor. I can show you the social trends. The deaths of billion dollar industries. The world has changed, and not for the better when it comes to the baseline sense of self-esteem.

[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: James 'Prodigy' Meehan ]

[Jager]

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Jager ]

[Hugin]

Jager, you make some points, but I don't think they address the truth behind the matter.

Yes, the Olympics were only a bare century old when they died. The NFL, NBA, NHL, Professional Baseball, all of these were considerably younger for the most part. I would not have brought them up if their lifespans had simply come to an end. If the NFL had died out because the public had become bored with it, had it struggled through seasons of declining interest I would not bring this up. But they didn't. The Olympics were bigger and bigger each time around. Professional sports experienced normal patterns of waning interest but in general, they pulled in more fans and more money every year. Then we came along. Professional sports died out near instantaneously. The Olympics lasted for one last go and no one noticed. This was not a part of a regular cycle of life and death for any public spectacle. Human achievment became boring, because we do it so much better.

Now, as to how I feel segregation will come about? I don't know. I have run numbers on the likelihood of any of a dozen possible outcomes. How will it happen? I don't know, I don't even *know* that it will. I believe that it is one of the more preferable options left to us. I hope and pray that every Nova who reads my work, watches the occasional interview, who talks to me in a bar, I hope that maybe I can sway them in a certain direction. I am not a leader however. I have data, I have opinions, I have posted them on a dozen OpNet Sites and I have printed them in books. That is the limit of my capabilities in this regard. It is up to those of you out there to listen. If you chose not to, that is your right. But please, do not expect me to mourn you.

[Fortune's Son]

I'm in a mood to be doing other things right now but since some of you asked me questions I'm going to try and answer.

Holland;

I wrote a terribly lengthy reply just to you but it was too verbose and in many ways too harsh. I can't blame you for being an academedian. Or should that be academecian? I never cared enough to keep it straight so let's keep it simple;

1. The baseline societies didn't give a crap for any of your examples. Sorry, but I don't make the choice of what articles to run or how to slant them. The baseline run media did that based on what sells to their consumers.

2. You really considered the guy that tweaked another guy's designs or the one that checked someone else's homework as good examples of the baselines standing tall? I have goose bumps just from hearing about it.

3. Check your research before you spout off about dates.

4. Damnation, get out of the house more. The issues aren't as simple as "Separation Bad / Integration Good".

--

Jager;

I'm going to make the broad and completely unfounded assumption that after hearing from Prodigy and having had time to think it, you wish you had taken a different approach to your sports insights. If I'm wrong feel free to point it out to me and I'll happily engage on that discussion point. It would be too easy but I take'em as they come.

what do you consider to be the traits that make you non-human?

Let's start with not needing to eat or sleep. How do you feel after a month of being on the go without rest, J-man. A little tired, irritable, maybe a little depressed? It took me a week to figure out I didn't need them like before and another two months to break many of the habits associated with those two non-existent needs. Now I'm trying to find out if there's an upper limit and so far haven't encountered one.

So is the question; how is my quantum twists different from yours? Or is it; what have I let go of that you haven't?

Personally, I prefer the pyramidal structure of needs simply because those two basic needs sit on the bottom and removing them from the equation has an effect on all the higher order needs. Jager, in many ways baselines have more in common with dolphins or whales than they do with me and I only mentioned the two most basic needs of simple biological entities.

Can you imagine, just for a moment, how little Holland has in common with baselines? It doesn't matter that he consciously clings to the trappings of his former existence nearly as much as the fact that, for him, it is a conscious choice. For the baselines it is NOT a choice except between life and death.

how do you intend to accomplish your seperation from baseline influences?

Something you're overlooking here is that it's already begun and will continue regardless of conscious choices. The question is only how long it will take me to travel a road and which road I will choose to travel, not whether I will be traveling. For me to maintain even a passing semblance of 'human' lifestyle requires me to make choice that baselines will never have to worry about making.

On a whim I find I am utterly free from the need to consume any organic/inorganic matter to survive. What I eat or drink I do so for the pleasure it brings me and even now I can see that's merely a echo of my pre-eruption life. It amuses me today but no amusement last forever. At the moment I drink shots of cynide when the mood takes me because it tastes good and I enjoy the sensation of metabolizing it. I flavor my spaghetti with powered lead for the same reason.

The separations, both personal and societal are already in progress. That's why you're talking about it now. You've already seen the signs. And just think; a year ago I ~knew~ I needed to consume certain materials on a cyclical basis or die. Three months ago I learned that I subsist entirely on ambient energies and I ~know~ I need not eat.

Can you guess what I'll know tomorrow?

The how and why of our evolution is the catalyst for the social stress society is going through.

The stress points of the baseline society were already there. Our emergence is the trigger for the force being applied to those stress points. I understand your point and even agree with it in a limited fashion but feel you are still concentrating on the symptoms rather than the problem. Yes, I caught the idea that you liken these symptoms to those of a disease and are attempting to ease the patient long enough for someone else to arrive at a cure.

Let's be blunt; without a treatment plan you are shooting in the dark and hoping that maintaining the status quo is a beneficial thing. How sure are you of that?

Do you want to borrow a hammer to pound on that rock?

I'm going to stop here having only given you a partial answer while I go look for something. You talked about evolution and I recall someone else talking about that a couple of months ago. I'm gonna go find the article and re-read it now since it seems to have an immediate effect on our discussion.

Vile Bill;

Dammit!

You still owe me for the last time. With the rumor that you got ambushed on that Russian job... Hell, we already had the wake. That's what led to the throw down with those merc jerks you party with. We stiffed'em for the tab.

Gore Hound was the brain trust of the group. What can I say, it was just too easy...

You didn't miss. I was standing there when that black crap spewed all over your mustache but decided not to stick around. Annie wouldn't cover the expense so you still owe me for the dry cleaning.

Don't worry about me this weekend. The high lord consort to the Queen put me under sanction again. Got a little action planned elsewhere with some Michealites so no loss there. Joseph Weber didn't come through for me but I had a plan B ready.

[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Jack Chance ]

[Prof. Sydney 'Photon' Holland]

James, I won't argue with you on the Sociological aspects of this argument (I'm not a sociologist, nor do I have any particular interest in the field), but I will say that at least in the academic field, the limelight has never been particularly bright here.

N-Day didn't change the fact that Scientists of most stripes don't get much recognition in the public eye. I was an academic both before and after N-Day, so I think I can say that with some authority.

Think about it: How many Nobel Prize winners can you think of? Of those, how many can you remember that didn't win the Peace Prize? I'm talking both pre- & post- N-Day, here. The Nobel prize, the greatest prestige, and yet so few people can actually recall who won it each year. Thus is the plight of the academic. Noone goes into it to get famous!

Oh, and speaking of the Nobels, did you know that of the 84 awards given since N-Day, only 32 were given to novas? Of those 32, 12 were for Medicine, 9 for Physics, 4 were for Peace, 3 for Economics, 3 were for Chemistry, and only 1 was for Literature. These include those given to Nova Organisations (like Utopia). Interestingly, it proves both James's and my points to some extent. James's, due to the high proportion compared to population, and mine because baselines have still won the majority of the awards.

While the public perception of science, I agree, has been pervaded by novas, there aren't a lot of baseline scientists I know that are particularly depressed about all the discoveries by novas. Most of them are just trying to get their own discoveries out there. Not all of them are reduced to lab assistants for novas. Lord knows, there's still too few of us to do that!

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

Originally posted by Prof. Sydney 'Photon' Holland:
N-Day didn't change the fact that Scientists of most stripes don't get much recognition in the public eye.

Unless they're novas. In that case they can be boring as hell and working on something that no one really cares about other than the 100 or so other people on the planet that work in their disciplines and yet...

And yet their every move is monitored by an adoring public. They get asked for autographs. They wait for tables at restaurants only if they look indistinguishable from baselines and don't think to trade on their status. Everywhere they go, they are outshined only by other novas. Which, correct me if I'm wrong, is the point.

Holland, even I can see that the effect I have on the baselines around me is alarmingly disproportionate to my contributions. We aren't just one of the guys and gals anymore. God is in the details here, the details of perception specifically, and your life as you knew it ended the day you erupted. Sydney Holland the baseline ceased to exist and your problems reconciling yourself to that aren't just going to affect you anymore. Now an eminently forgettable professor living in a boring little city in the middle of nowhere can not only change the world. He's expected to.

We don't ask to be born and we get no choice in whether we erupt. Live with it.

[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Jack Chance ]

[Jager]

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Jager ]

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Your biological functions are of some interest, Jack, but fail to convince me of the greater impact that they may have on the majority of us.

I am disheartened, Jager. Disheartened and annoyed. Rather than give in to those feelings though I am going to try a magic trick while offering you an analogy to illustrate whence comes those feelings. The actual trick is to be frank with you while not losing sight of tact.

Jager: So tell me, Jack, what colors do you feel have the most effect on your life making you uniquely you?

Jack: Well, that's a complex question and one I don't feel comfortable being completely open about. Let's keep it simple and discuss just one primary color, blue, and how it affects me.

...short discussion on the color blue...

Jager; That's interesting, Jack. Unfortunately, you didn't account for the smell of oranges therefore I am unconvinced of the greater impact on other novas...

This would be the part where I ask who the hell said anything about the smell of fruit. Or about novas in general. Look, Jager; if you want to talk about me in the singular we can do that, which is the question you asked me by the way. If you want to talk about novas in general and as a group we can do that too. If you want to extropolate from the singular, me, to the group then I'm down with that too and will happily assist. You must make up your mind which you want to talk about. Leaping from one to another and then back again is less than productive.

Now that we have that out of the way; let's talk about humans. There is still too much of the old "I was born a man but I have these cool powers therefore I'm not human" crap out there in the world. I assume that's why you keep failing to hear what I am telling you as simply as I can. Let me see if I can make this clear for you. It is not about the abilities, powers, the blessing of god or however you want to characterize the things we can do.

That's baseline mentality.

So, if it's not about the kewl little bennies like shooting a blast of fire out of your left nipple, what is it about? Well, there we finally come to the crux of the matter.

And let me be honest here, Jager. This is not a discussion which I have any thought towards 'winning'. I asked some questions, you answered and the discussion was over. Don't I feel a need to convince you of the inherent 'rightness' of my cause.

Nope.

I've read the archives and seen where Ashnod explained it to you on several occassions. I've read Prodigy explaining it to you. I've examined the words of Wizard trying to explain it to you. Even Apep took a shot at it. I can understand the extra politness to Apep, I've got a thing for her too. Unfortunately she's probably discerning enough to turn both of us down.

Am I impugning your motives? Nah, I haven't a clue as to what they were though I could have some fun guessing. Am I judging you? I'm trying not to but I can't be optimistic about this finally sinking in after reading those records. So if there is even the slightest concern in your mind about 'winning' or 'losing' you can put it out of your head now.

Human. To be human. What adaptable little critters comprise the race called humanity. They encounter a problem and adapt to it's presence, change the environment or die. Luckily for them they breed well and have no natural predators so those three options are really all they need to prosper. Even when a group adapts a little too well and becomes complacent it's okay 'cuz somewhere else in the world is another group not so complacent. And so the race goes on since there could never be anything capable of affecting all of them worldwide at once.

What do you think Jager? Is there anything that could affect them worldwide all at once? Any particular knowlege that might affect them?

So anyway, we have these cute little critters who adapt to situations they can't overcome, adapt to change or adapt to the inevitability of death. Very adaptive critters. Now something emerges from the gene pool of those cute little critters. Something that sees the universe in a completely different manner. Let's say it can directly perceive ambient motion in molecules otherwise known as heat. It's consciousness can actually extend through that energy field and it even learns some cool tricks it can do with heat. Next we come along, you and I. I say that this critter is different from the other critters because it perceives the universe in a manner completely unlike the others. You tell me it's the same, it just shoots fire out it's left nipple.

I'm not unhuman because I don't need to eat. I'm unhuman because I don't share the worldview of the others that will not and cannot share that experience or one very much like it. It's not like going down to the coast and renting a jetski for the weekend only to return on Monday to tell my more sedentary pals at the office what it was like. They can never come, never experience anything like it and I don't want to go back to sitting in the office.

I could deconstruct your example with the girl but does it really matter?

Granted it's not a bad observation, we could argue it out, but you have only to examine the reaction of the baseline population to the 'nova-ghoul' and you'll see that it lends credence to my position rather than your own. We'll never know for certain if they would have killed her had Utopia not arrived on scene but she doesn't seem to get invited home very often does she. Or out to dinner.

Is the relevant factor that she still needs to consume organics, even very specific ones, or the fact that the baselines want nothing to do with her. The world changed and suddenly she wasn't part of it anymore. Personally, I think Utopia never made more than a half hearted attempt to come up with a substitute for the dead flesh. She doesn't fit the pretty plastic world of the future and her existance raises too many question for those mealy mouthed bastards.

Sorry. A sore point with me.

Her name was Lisa Anne Debouse and we occassionally work together. We never talk about her eruption or what happened after it but I like her. She's funny, easy on the eyes and looks like a little girl on Christmas morning when she discovers something new. She can ride air currents, crack a security system faster than you can draw a gun and sense living tissue anywhere within her range. Get drunk with her sometime and she'll tell what she really misses about her pre-eruption days.

Her scent is unusual but much like Steak Tartar it's an acquired taste.

I am also aware (in my experience) that your ability isn't as free as you make it out to be.

Free?

Okay, I can see where someone might draw that conclusion. Count your calories in a given day and then compare the total caloric intake to the energy burned. It almost always comes up short but that doesn't invalidate your observation here. What brings it into question is that I don't need the caloric intake to survive or operate.

If I did what you suggest, and I assume that's why you and I react differently to privations, why would I be doing it? Even if it was only to maintain my common ground with humanity, I would distancing myself just by the option of making the choice. I remember what it was like to need food but can see someday the memory will grow distant. It sounds like you're saying this is the price I pay from the coin of my humanity. You're right from a baseline perspective provided you assume that being a baseline is "normal". Another perspective is that this is simply what I am and a part of me.

Shall I rail against fate and the gods because that part drives home the point that I'm not like the other 8 billion critters that resemble me? Shall I refuse to examine it because it drives that point home? Did I force the adaptation or accept it as part of what I am?

I think the answers depend on whether you see baselines as the 'normal' condition.

...did you go through massive DNA alterations? Most of us don't, you know.

Yes, I do know. And you're trying to gloss over the fact that the same tissue that makes up the MR Node also forms a spiderweb tracery throughout the body of even the most baseline-like of novas. In some areas it completely replaces the nervous system while in others it merely augments it. Remember KickJack and the eletrical discharge display live on Opnet? Everybody's seen it though most people forget about the technical discussion that preceded it. Look it up and then tell me how little the body of a nova changes. I'll wait.

Any guesses as to which one makes you the tougher nova?

Yeah... the one that keeps you alive without actually growing complacent and eventually decadent. Personal mileage may vary. Terats as a group seem to exemplify those that want to push the envelope while there are the other novas that cling to their 'human plus' mentality like it was life itself. In between those two extremes you have the majority of us.

I think that's what Wizard and Prodigy were trying to tell Avenger except that he didn't want to hear it. The guy's a combat monster from the sound of it, keeping the real twists inside, but those twists are weaknesses to be exploited just like any other. "Tough" is a relative thing.

...jellyfish...

Good example but again I don't think it strengthens your position. Try explaining McDonald's, chilidogs or Sunday dinner to an intelligent jellyfish. Sure it might grasp the concepts on an intellectual level but do you really think there's going to be an empathic sharing on this experience?

And nowhere did you see me use the phrase "more evolved". I've seen the supremacist arguments in the archives and this isn't going to be one of them. Truthfully I find the implication more than a little insulting as well. You already figured out this isn't one of those "We're Gods and Baseline's Suck" discussions so why bring it up?

The environment that is automatically supporting me goes by a very simple name. Reality. You can't starve me without unmaking the spacetime continuum. I think that's worth a little more than a footnote. I really liked your mox example but is it anymore relevant than feeding cuirare to a baseline and wondering why he died?

Likewise, you think you don't need sleep, but just how much did your mammilian nature change? Not that much, I think.

I firmly believe that technology will eventually yield a baseline alternative to sleep as far as the physical side is concerned. Possibly even resulting from the studies of nova physiologies. The important part is not the physical side, it's the mental side.

Yes, I have read the studies I could lay my hands on. And then went to school to get the knowledge I needed to understand them properly. Relate it to mammalian nature as much as you like; I don't need sleep, Jager. It's absence doesn't make me psychotic or paranoid. Matter of fact my monthly psych review with my Devries 'counselor' pretty much summed it up;

"STABLE. ANNOYING AS HELL,. NOT A TEAM PLAYER. GET LENNY TO DO NEXT MONTH REVIEW."

I actually like the guy but he needs to lighten up and he's fun to play with.

Jager, you know as well as I do that there is no way I could go for months at a time without sleep no matter how much ambient energy I pulled to offset the physical demands. Not unless there were major changes to my brain chemistry and thought processes. If I haven't gone crazy yet then lack of sleep alone isn't going to do it. And YES, there are psychological changes.

That's what this discussion is ALL about.

I kind of missed that period of unconsciousness that divided up one day from the next but found there are substitutes for it. I missed it for the simplest of reasons imaginable; it divided the future from the past for me. I still need that crutch to separate the good days from the bad.

This has gone on a little long and I need to meet a friend of mine for a road trip. I look forward to your reply.

[ 05-04-2002: Message edited by: Jack Chance ]

[Hugin]

Jager, unlike Mr. Chance I am going to make this short. I have already come to the conlucsion that for the time being you are lost. If my profile on you is correct, you will come around someday, at least there is a great chance you will. If not, I mourn the loss.

However, that dreariness aside, you stated that we have replaced the stars in baseline society and that baselines in fact have adapted well to our presence. One last attempt here to explain to you the insidious effect our presence has on baseline society.

Polls are terrible things, the data collected can be twisted and turned about more than Gumby turning a trick. However, if you have access to enough data, and take enough polls into account you can still come to some interesting conclusions with a great deal of accuracy. I've done this. You know what I've found?

Novas define beauty for baselines. Novas define what is cool. We are what is desirable. We the icons they look up to. "Duh" you say. "Big deal" you say. "Look back twenty years and Britney Spears was sexiness, Kobe Bryant was athleticism, and some other blow dried twit was cool." Yes, exactly.

Kobe was human, he was attainable. Yes, he had natural talent, but that was a talent that was available to humanity. Britney was human, she was attainable. With enough engineering, dieting, and breast enhancement duplicating her was possible.

Lets look at Jordan, you and I both know him. He's taken the path of the paid warrior but lets say he had taken the path of media superstar. He is strong and agile. Stronger and more agile than a human can ever be. He's smart, perceptive and witty. Again, more so than any baseline has a chance at achieving, regardless of how many drugs they pump into their systems. He's gorgeous. My core personality is straight, but it wouldn't take but a minimal effort on his part for my more adventerous aspects to be clamoring for control. He looks better than any human, regardless of good breeding, good diet, and the most talented of surgeons can ever hope for.

Do you really think it is a good thing for children to look to him as the 'ultimate'? They can never, ever be him.

You've studied history, this much I know. For black children in America, was it a good thing that the standard of beauty was white? Was it a good thing that this was so accepted that hair straightening was all the rage? Limited, clumsy baseline sociologists, with their blunt, primitive tools even then were able to discern the self hatred that would so often develop when the message "This is beautiful, this is what is good, this is what you are not" was pounded into their heads so often.

Even now, after such a short time on this planet we have had deliterious affect on baseline self images. Mite addiction is 13 percent more prevelent this year than last. Cases of surgical addiction in the field of cosmetic surgery is up 58 percent in the last decade. Cases of Bulimia and Anorexia are rising at a rate that would stun you. 'NovaEyes' contacts are selling so strongly that their inventor has just released 'NovaGlow', an energized powder that can mimic the soft glow that some of us generate. WallStreet is panting for his IPO.

No, I wouldn't say that baseline society is adapting all too well. But, maybe I just focus on the details too much. Maybe that's just me.

[Jordan]

"Path of the paid warrior?" Moi?

Meehan, your slipping. Stop listening to the slanderous fantasies of your friends in the Primacy. The Confederate is gunning for me 'cause I killed his blushing bride, Snapdragon, but mark my words Prodigy. I am on no ones payroll and despite what N! puts on their damn list, I am not an Elite.

You should get out more, raw data isn't always accurate.

[Prof. Sydney 'Photon' Holland]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Chance:
Holland, even I can see that the effect I have on the baselines around me is alarmingly disproportionate to my contributions. We aren't just one of the guys and gals anymore. God is in the details here, the details of perception specifically, and your life as you knew it ended the day you erupted. Sydney Holland the baseline ceased to exist and your problems reconciling yourself to that aren't just going to affect you anymore. Now an eminently forgettable professor living in a boring little city in the middle of nowhere can not only change the world. He's expected to.

We don't ask to be born and we get no choice in whether we erupt. Live with it.

I am. And I consider that an achievement, considering what godhood stuck me with. Loss of 3 of my 5 senses, and a crippling of a fourth, as well as being unable to touch anything. The inability to enjoy my favourite food, drinks and music. Loss of any chance to reproduce.

Just letting you know that Eruption doesn't bestow us all with the greatest condition on earth.

[ 05-04-2002: Message edited by: Prof. Sydney 'Photon' Holland ]

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

Originally posted by Prof. Sydney 'Photon' Holland:
Just letting you know that Eruption doesn't bestow us all with the greatest condition on earth.

Noted.

Did you have anyone in mind for the reproduction effort or was that just a generalized complaint? I'm not mocking you, just wondering what you would think of your situation after examining that of another. Try an Opnet search for 'Graveyard Jill' and think about the alternatives.

Greener grass and all of that.

[ 05-04-2002: Message edited by: Jack Chance ]

[Jager]

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Jager ]

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:


As we percieve ourselves to be less human, we will become less human. Likewise, our ability to relate to baselines, and their ability to relate to us, will diminish. Your right, it isn't so much becoming superior as evolving in a different direction. Novas really do need to free themselves from baseline thinking. It's not just conterproductive, its dangerous. Dangerous for both races.

Back to the main point for a moment. The idea of Nova Legislation is ludicrous. That all novas, or even most novas, could come together to form a nation on par with the baseline nations is a fairy tale. Novas are too diverse and headed in too many different directions to be fit into any pre-existing framework of society.
Sorry, but I have been dying to get that out since I first read the thread.

Wow. In one paragraph, you state we must evolve beyond baseline thinking. In the second, you state the idea of a majority of Novas agreeing on a legislative body was ludicrous.

Is it not possible, Jager, that our post-baseline perceptions could adapt or create a new society framework? Perhaps not now, this early in our evolution, but a few years hence?

It troubles me that you believe we will never be able to recognize what unifying ties we all share.

Have hope for us.

[ 05-05-2002: Message edited by: Ashnod ]

[Prof. Sydney 'Photon' Holland]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Chance:
Noted.

Did you have anyone in mind for the reproduction effort or was that just a generalized complaint? I'm not mocking you, just wondering what you would think of your situation after examining that of another. Try an Opnet search for 'Graveyard Jill' and think about the alternatives.

Greener grass and all of that.

Just looked her up. Just goes to show that no matter how bad you think you have it...

She does prove my point though. Sometimes when you erupt, who/whatever's up there decides to give us the short straw.

[Fortune's Son]

Or it gives us a clue about ourselves at the moment of eruption. Think of it as the ultimate in practical jokes; it forces us to face something about who we really are and how we really feel. Maybe that's why the most powerful of the erupted tend to follow archetypical forms.

Often there seems to be almost mythological overtones to what we become. A pity the psychologist Dr. Jung didn't live to see us. I think he would have been thrilled to see his theories in action.

[Jager]

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Jager ]

[Asche]

Well it seems that this topic has stirred up many a fire in a number of very different hearts.

When this was post was originally conceived, it was under th understanding that many here would remain focused and merely banter about the topic at hand. However it seems that you are as a whole, more interested in bickering about some form of seperation or sterilization. I have allowed this discussion fester without any of my interjections in the hope that you all would all get back on track and check your ego's at the door. So to speak.

Thus, let me rephrase the question. I originally asked if Legislation was an answer to the problems the world of Novas is having. I also asked what would it take for a NOva to get the gears moving toward some Nova standing up and perhaps being an icon for all novas. Instead, let me send this to you:

What would all of your responses be to a single Nova stepping up and taking a stand for ALL Nova's and perhaps being an icon much like the president of the U.S. is? The President is merely a front man for the citizens after all and he must report to all the governing bodies around him fomr any things.

Lets assume that the person is likeable by all in a general sense, for intents and purposes.

Remember, this is not the same as Randall Portman being elected the president of the baseline government. This would be a Nova leader for Nova persons. (is that a title?)

I know there are alot of other factors involved in this decision. But for the sake of arguments, lets assume that this is the ONLY problem we have left; lets pretend for a moment that all of the nova's just discovered a large area of land to claim as thier own (or a planet).

How would you all react to laws made by a Nova for a Nova nation? (this is a trick question)

[Fortune's Son]

"Here lies the remains of Jack Chance's reply to Asche Lonn on what he felt to be a cognitive error. It was insightful in a minor way, somewhat funny but just a touch harsher than an objective observer might find justified.

Really.

Regretfully, if Mr. Lonn actually made it to this point in the thread and still felt the need to make the above comment then it is unlikely he would have appreciated the counterpoint being made by Mr. Chance, or the manner in which he chose to make it.

It is also unlikely that Mr. Chance is actually privy to the details he quoted concerning Mr. Lonn's sorted family history or psychological make up. Indeed, I must admit to being somewhat suspicious regarding the acts ascribed to Mr. Lonn's grandmother and an unnamed member of the primate family. To be blunt, they strike me as physiologically impossible and most likely a complete fabrication on the part of Mr. Chance.

My condolences to those affected on this forum. And to the descendents of that poor little monkey."

G.J.

[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Jack Chance ]

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Asche Lonn:
I have a question for all of you out there? Do you think Nova Legislation is the answer to many of the problems between Baselines and Novas?

I mean, what for instance, would it take to get a Nova to stand up and start the ball rolling toward a government or legislation run BY Nova's and FOR Novas?
Is it merely that most of you out there fear the spotlight? Or perhaps its Mal you fear?
I'm curious about this as it seems that quite a bit of the negative PR the Nova's are getting are due largely in part to groups like Nova Vigilance and the Primacy, If someone were to stand up and offer to be a figurehead for Novas, maybe they could get some legislation passed and the Terats would stop whimpering.
I often ponder this and decided I would try out my "Anti-Flame" filter.

You've complained that your little question was not addressed to your satisfaction. I am ever so sorry that we as a group here failed to present you with an acceptable response, truly I am. I will now do my best to address your question and your question only, without interjecting any original thought of my own that might detract from you being satisfied with my answer. Here we go.

Do I think Nova Legislation is the answer to the problems between Novas and Baselines? No, no I do not. I don't feel that you have defined what you mean by Nova Legislation very well at all, so I am forced to assume that you mean Legislation developed by a body of Novas that have come together in some form of a ruling body to administer to the needs and protection of the Nova community.

What would it take for a singular Nova to take the lead in developing a Novacentric Government? I take it you mean successfully take the lead. That can be simply answered. An act of god would be required. God himself would have to come down in an undeniable form and point his holy finger in the direction of said individual and declare this one to be the Nova messiah.

Do most of us fear the spotlight? Are you mad? Are you blind? We are on the OpNet daily. We are the subject of untold interviews and personality segments. As a group we thrive on notoriety, it is our bread and butter. That much is obvious. Yes, there are individuals who crave privacy, but they are definetly not the majority.

Is it Mal we fear? Personally I couldn't give three heaping spoonfuls of shit as to whether or not Mal cared about what I did. I personally do not fear Mal, at least no more than I fear random meteor strikes or similar natural catastrophes. Mal has encouraged us to do what we will in so many words. That is hardly the attitude of a Nova looking over our shoulders constantly.

Maybe if we would be offered a figurehead we could all get behind him to get the ball rolling and the Terats would stop whimpering? Uhhhhh, yeah. This one isn't even worth addressing.


My Lord but I am so sorry that the evolving organic flow of the discussion was not to your taste. I apologize profusely for not hamstringing our conversation the minute that it wandered away from your chosen topic. If you had not noticed your question was addressed and then things moved on. This tends to happen here quite often. Get over it.

[Jager]

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Jager ]