opnet [OpNet] Nova Legislation

[Jager]

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Jager ]

[Jordan]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
...ah, Jordan? You wacked Snapdragon? Is that why Shrapnel has been missing my usual "I hate your ass and am going to shread you into so much kalamari" get-togethers? And I just thought it was because she heard that I was dead.

What's sad about the whole thing is that they don't even want to deal with the fact that Snapdragon was responsible for her own actions. I can understand Meldrun being pissed and wanting to gut me, thats a natural response to having someone you love iced. But to blame me for her death, well, it's kind of hypocritical of them isn't it?

[Jager]

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Jager ]

[Jordan]

She decided she didn't like my business partner and attacked us while in Bucharest. It was either her death or mine. I chose hers.

I'm not really afraid of the rest of his "rat pack" but I don't want to kill half a dozen Terats just to get them off my back. I'll deal with that when it becomes an issue, I guess.

[ 05-07-2002: Message edited by: Jordan Rossi ]

[Jager]

[ 06-01-2002: Message edited by: Jager ]

[Kaelan_Mas]

What an intriguing question Mr. Lonn has presented. After reading most of the replies posted I have come to the conclusion that no one on the OpNet wants to be bound to laws and regulations imposed by others. Everyone appears to only want to do whatever thier own code of morality will allow them to do. Sadly, it appears that most seem to choose the path of doing whatever they please without thought to the overall effect to those around them as long as they come out smelling like a rose in the end. So in answer to your question, I believe that like communism it is only possible in a limited area, in a limited degree. Everyone in the area must all have the same goal for a legislation like that to successful. Maybe after others see the success of a united state of novas, others would be attracted to and adopt a similar belief. I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone. I just believe that for this idea to be proven successful or a massive failure a united group needs to be formed and just do it.

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaelan_Mas:
After reading most of the replies posted I have come to the conclusion that no one on the OpNet wants to be bound to laws and regulations imposed by others. Everyone appears to only want to do whatever thier own code of morality will allow them to do. Sadly, it appears that most seem to choose the path of doing whatever they please without thought to the overall effect to those around them as long as they come out smelling like a rose in the end. So in answer to your question, I believe that like communism it is only possible in a limited area, in a limited degree. Everyone in the area must all have the same goal for a legislation like that to successful. Maybe after others see the success of a united state of novas, others would be attracted to and adopt a similar belief. I am truly sorry if I have offended anyone. I just believe that for this idea to be proven successful or a massive failure a united group needs to be formed and just do it.

Really...be careful not to blank judgement those that have posted here. Most of us would be willing to follow the doctrines of an agreed-upon Nova government. That this government does not yet exist does not mean we don't wish it to be, nor does its absence imply we desire to be entirely unrestricted in our behavior.

The logistics of creating any government can be daunting, sometimes appearing insurmountable, for a community of baselines. The challenge in greating a Nova government will be that much greater, and it is a struggle already opposed by the confusion and uncertainty of our own people.

Coincidently, seeing that you registered mere moments before writing that little diatribe, welcome to N!Prime, Kaelan.

[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: Ashnod ]

[Kaelan_Mas]

Ashnod, thank you for your welcome to N!prime. I apologize for appearing to place a label on those who responded to Mr. Lonn's question.

I just think that if a group of Nova's were to unite and form their own nation, we could accomplish things that we only dream about. Because we erupted from a baseline state, we limit the scale of our potetial by our own perspective. If a group of Nova's united in a nation, established their own laws for their nation, and worked together to accomplish their goals ... nothing would be unattainable. I do believe that this process will go through growing pains, but I also think that it is a necessary step for the growth of all Novas to see that a Nova legislation is possible. I am willing to take the first step, but I feel as though I am the only one on the forum willing to start making the laws and a movement to a Nova nation. I believe that anyone who wants to be part of it would have a voice and a vote for equal representation. I really think this is a worthwhile endeavor.

[Ashnod]

The first, and most immediate question that is going to be asked to you, Kaelan, is where? A Nova nation, if such a thing is to be recognized, must have a geographical locale.

While I'm certainly accepting of the idea that a Nova nation can exist abstractly, ergo, all Novas represent a Nova nation, I don't think most are and certainly the governments of the world won't be willing to recognize something of that nature as legitimate.

[Jordan]

Welcome Kaelan, glad to have you here.

Ashnod makes some very good points. Here are some others. Who is going to lead this new nation? Who is going to create these laws? Who will enforce those laws? Who will perform all of the tasks that most Novas percieve now to be "menial" (How many Nova janitors or garbage men do you know)?

A Nova nation sounds like a grand thing, but until we get off of our "I'm a God" kick, it isn't likely to happen any time soon. Add to that the diametrically opposed philosophies in the Nova comunity (Human vrs. Transhuman) and the task becomes that much more difficult. I wish you luck if this is your goal because our going to have a long and difficult road ahead of you.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Welcome aboard Kaelan.

A few questions (to anyone, this isn't the first time I heard this idea) about this Nova government/homeland.

1) Do we allow baselines in Nova-Homeland?

2) If so, do we let them vote?

3) If not, then who takes out the trash?

[Dampner]

For what it's worth here's my 2 cents.

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:

A few questions (to anyone, this isn't the first time I heard this idea) about this Nova government/homeland.

1) Do we allow baselines in Nova-Homeland?

2) If so, do we let them vote?

3) If not, then who takes out the trash?

,,

1) Sure they can come visit if they sign a waiver.

2) Nope coz they're just visiting.

3) All these hyper-intelligent, engineering marvels and not one of them can invent a robot that takes the damn trash out?

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Ashnod:

A Nova nation, if such a thing is to be recognized, must have a geographical locale.

The challenge in greating a Nova government will be that much greater, and it is a struggle already opposed by the confusion and uncertainty of our own people.

No one owns the Moon or Mars, I've heard them suggested before.

There are hundreds of Baseline nations on Earth, why not a half dozen Nova nations?

[Stigmata]

Forgive me here for not having faith in novakind, but I don't think we're up for the task. Governement is government. No one has proven to me that a nova government could be any better than a baseline-run system, and theirs are most certainly flawed.

In the event that we had our own little utopia, if there is to be such a thing as freedom, baselines could not be part of a nova nation. I'll take out the damn trash if I have to. I don't think we should be above taking care of ourselves.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Stigmata:
In the event that we had our own little utopia, if there is to be such a thing as freedom, baselines could not be part of a nova nation. I'll take out the damn trash if I have to. I don't think we should be above taking care of ourselves.

Lots of us have followers / groupies / husbands / wives / friends / children / brothers / parents that we wouldn't want to leave. Lots of us still need to eat & don't feel like farming. Presumably we get food from our fellow novas. So... do we use money? How do we deal with the insane/trouble makers? What laws do we pass? Do we name a king?

Mind you, I'm not saying this is a bad idea. I am saying I think there are questions that need to be answered.

[Twist]

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:

Lots of us have followers / groupies / husbands / wives / friends / children / brothers / parents that we wouldn't want to leave.

Yep. This is true. However a nova nation would probably not be an entirely safe place for baselines. Which I think led to Dampner's Waiver idea.

Lots of us still need to eat & don't feel like farming. Presumably we get food from our fellow novas.

Well plenty of novas currently make their living farming. What else would you cann Terraforming.

So... do we use money? How do we deal with the insane/trouble makers?

Money, we might need to figure out an alternative to that. Baseline style currencies are way too easy for our kind to undermine... and I don't mean by mega-intelligent novas necessarily.

What laws do we pass?

Rome wasn't built in a day. The citizens of any putative nova nation would have to decide on that. Which is why I think that we'd end up with more than one. Fortunately there's currently few enough of us that the citizens of any nation could talk it out.

Do we name a king?

Damn, I hope not. If we went for any baseline model of government I'd hope it'd be democracy or maybe we'll find alternatives they never thought of.

Mind you, I'm not saying this is a bad idea. I am saying I think there are questions that need to be answered.

I don't think it's a bad idea per se. I'm just not sure if we could live together and if we ended up with several different nations with different laws how long before we follow the baselines into warring over ideology?

Twist

[Kaelan_Mas]

All these questions can only be answered if someone takes the first step in forming a nation governed by Novas. For the nation to be a monarchy, democratic society, socialism, or God forbid, communism can only be decided by those who lead the movement. I am in no way suggesting the leaving behind of family and friends. I see no reason for excluding a baseline population in the baby nation. They would be aware of the risks of living among the channelers of quantum. I think the benefits would outway the disadvantages that many baselines and Novas would be attracted to living there. Currency would only matter if there were to be interaction with the other nations of mankind. We could have a barter system among the citizens for services and or goods. I guess the question really is, what would you want to accomplish living in a nova nation? Because if the baselines have functioning nations, why can't we?

[Preston]

Okay. I know this will sound weird coming from me, but;

Does a nova nation need physical boundries? Could it be something like an extra-territorial enterprise?

I still think the whole question about the status of baselines is a deal breaker.

Unless I fulfill the standard stereotype of a neanderthal, knuckle dragging cop, Welcome Mr. or Ms. Mas.

Okay, I have attempted playing nice.

Mas, were do you stand on baselines and their rights?

Are we a "they are beneath us" God-being like Apep, Leviathan and Lash,

or

a "we should respect them but not protect them" bench warmer like Mr. Meehan, Mr. Rossi and Ashnod,

or

do you think they have rights and values that should be protected? Even against other novas; Like me and, I guess, Endeavor.

One thing I did get from the earlier discussions here was that novas really disagree on what place baselines have.

When you make your little country, you will have to deal with the novas that disagree with you on this.

Make your own laws, Mas. See if you can do something besides pissing most of us off.

I believe the term you are looking for is "Participatory Democracy" unless you want to set up a taxed-based system and/or nationalize everyones property.

I do not spend every moment of my life in a deep, dark cave with my head buried in the sand.

[Kaelan_Mas]

Thank you for the welcome Preston. And it is Mr. Kaelan Mas. Mrs. Mas would not participate in a forum like this...

I am partial to the idea of having a physical territory for a Nova nation. Then the next question would be, where? I am sure there are some islands that we could purchase or some waste land that we could terra form to make a suitable place for the nation to exist.

I believe in the rights of all sentient beings. Some races just need time for them to grow into their full potential. I believe that this right should be allowed. In essence, I believe that Novas are just the beginning in an evolutionary advancement of the human race as a whole. Given time, I believe the number of novas are going to grow and the number of baselines will start to decrease. I don't know if all baselines will become novas but they might ascend in other ways. So, I believe in peaceful coexistance. I believe we should respect the baselines and protect the rights of all Nova and baseline alike.

I have not started a nova nation yet. As I was traveling in Russia, I found the ruins of a city that seemed to be forgotten. Baselines/People still lived there but they were dying because the ground was poisoned and the ground water was full of lead and other contaminates. I felt moved to help them and that is how I came to make this part of Russia my home.

There has not been a move to establish a government in this region. A sale offer was made to the Russian parliament and for all legal puposes the land belonged to me. I gave the land back to the people and they asked me to stay as an advisor. The first elections will happen in six months.

[Stigmata]

You know it's hard really to not feel superior to the baselines. So in a sense I feel they are indeed beneath us. But I don't see what's wrong with protecting them either. I may not go out of my way to do it, but if the situation arises, I don't think I could turn my back. I know that may confuse you considering I've pretty much said I used to involve myself in some amount of crime, but I never did anything that would harm someone who didn't deserve it(so I thought anyways.) Besides, petty crime doesn't make you heartless.

Yeah, they deserve rights. Without them they would be slaves and freedom just doesn't exist unless all parties involved are such. I refuse to live in a place where people are oppressed in such a manor.

But what's it matter? Novas can't agree on anything, certainly not a means to govern ourelves. The idea of not being bound by geography is beautiful in theory but so was the idea of communism that you despise so much. I have hope that something someday will work, but I'm afraid we will kill ourselves off trying.

Oh, and my vote's for anarchy.

[Cin]

I hate to burst your bubble Mr. Mas, but you didn’t take the first step. Asche Lonn took the first steps when he started talking about who novas could govern themselves. Then I think the next step was when I proposed the idea of a nova legislation. Then the next steps came with the input of various people here. So, in short, your step is far from the first.

Now, on to other things. I don’t think you are going to find a government around willing to sell/give you land to form a nova government, especially since the idea frightens many “baselines”. One government or another owns pretty much every speck of land on this planet already. If you pick someplace and try to form a government that the rest of the world doesn’t like, well, then you’ll find two things. One, you won’t get acknowledged by the other governments as a legitimate government and two, if they don’t want you to be a government (generally because that frightens them) ten they’ll make sure it does not happen. By force, if necessary, I proposed some time ago the idea of Venus. It is relatively easy to terraform from what I understand and Anteus should have a fun time of it.

In addition, I don’t see that novas necessarily NEED their own government. I think they can exist within the bounds of government that already exist. Like I said before, if we are considered citizens of various governments, then use your right to vote and run for office. Make changes within the existing laws and governments. I think you’ll find it much more likely.

The big thing when it comes to any laws anywhere (nova government or not) is who will enforce them?

Lucinda “Caliber” McGuffy

“The worst thing a just person can do is nothing.”

[Preston]

TERRAFORMING VENUS?

Okay, I hang out in a different clubhouse.

Doesn't it rain ammonia over there?

I find all this hard to believe. Not impossible, but hard to believe.

I dropped a line over to some brains at MIT before responding and they told me that it was possible, though hideously expensive in time and energy, for a nova like Anteus to do it... WITH the help that Project Utopia put into Ethopia backing him up.

Time would be in fricken decades. It is a whole planetary ecosystem.

I could be wrong here. You are talking about a scale of power that boggles the mind. Again, this is way beyond my level of play.

[Cin]

Yep. Venus. It would take decades, but terraforming a planet is not something done easily. Besides, alot of us are very long lived, or with a little help can be long lived. If a large group of novas decide it is worth doing and bring thier various abilities to the problem, working together like a community, then I can be done much faster.

It is just a suggestion. Heh.

Lucinda "Caliber" McGuffy

"The worst thing a just person can do is nothing."

[Sakurako Hino]

Too bad I've jumped into this topic now. It seemed to pop up overnight. Now I can't make an informed addition to this debate.

[ 08-29-2002: Message edited by: Endeavor ]

[Kaelan_Mas]

Thank you all for your warm welcomes to the forum.

Ms. Lewis, I feel compelled thank you soooo much for setting me straight. I can not believe that I got so many "critical" points wrong. I hope I did not offend you to the point where you feel compelled to shoot me with that pretty pistol of yours.

Regarding your disbelief in a nation willing to sell land, I feel I must remind you of the Lousiana Purchase and Alaska. Two chunks of land bought with cold hard cash. It is still possible, you just have to ask for it the right way. You never know what you are going to get if you do not ask.

You do present a good idea about terraforming another planet. Nothing is out of our reach if we unite and just do it.

Your question about who is going to enforce the laws the lawmakers make is something that is up to the lawmakers of the new government.

If you do not like the laws that are made, go and terraform another planet and make the laws there.

Why limit yourself to the laws and regulations that were made by men with a limited outlook? As Novas we are all limitless in potential... Forming a government would just be a progression in attaining our potential.

[Cin]

Wow.. Let me say a few things Mr. Mas...

"Ms. Lewis, I feel compelled thank you soooo much for setting me straight. I can not believe that I got so many "critical" points wrong. I hope I did not offend you to the point where you feel compelled to shoot me with that pretty pistol of yours."

Wow.

Every time I have killed it has been because there was no other option or because they were trying to kill me.

If you think that I would shoot you over something like that, then you REALLY don’t know me. I would have figured that your dad would have set you straight about me by now.

"Regarding your disbelief in a nation willing to sell land, I feel I must remind you of the Lousiana Purchase and Alaska. Two chunks of land bought with cold hard cash. It is still possible, you just have to ask for it the right way. You never know what you are going to get if you do not ask."

The two transactions you cite are quite old and from a time where the world’s populace didn’t quite know how much space there was on the planet. It’s nice to use out of date facts to support yourself though. It is true that you never what you can get unless you ask. But then again there something called “common sense” and “exercises in futility” which if you lacked the first one and asked, then you would be engaging in the second one.

"You do present a good idea about terraforming another planet. Nothing is out of our reach if we unite and just do it"

Yep. It’s a sing of failure if we have to do it just so the novas have a place to live or get away from “baselines” entirely.

"Your question about who is going to enforce the laws the lawmakers make is something that is up to the lawmakers of the new government."

Yes, but a government is not going to be formed and stand on it’s own two feet until that question is answered. The abilities of novas are so wide and varied that it is virtually impossible to police them, even with out novas.

"If you do not like the laws that are made, go and terraform another planet and make the laws there."

"Why limit yourself to the laws and regulations that were made by men with a limited outlook? As Novas we are all limitless in potential... "

,,

Huh? Is that directed toward me? If so, where in the blue hell did that come from? I don’t recall every saying I didn’t like the laws that are made. In fact, I have been encouraging people to obey and work within them. I think the cold of Russia is getting to you.

As far as outlook and limiting myself..

The law is the law and if you don’t obey them, then the people who made them and who’s country you live in will do their best to enforce them on you. To ignore the law is to make life very hard on yourself and wastes a lot of energy that could be better devoted to other tings.

Novas, theoretically, ARE limitless in potential, but very few will ever live up to that.

"Forming a government would just be a progression in attaining our potential"

That is your opinion. To me, having to make our own government is a sign of our failure to live with our fellow man and will only tend to propagate an elitist attitude that many novas already sport.

By the way, I'd watch the "we"s and "our"s, if you know what I mean.

Lucinda “Caliber” McGuffy

“The worst thing a just person can do is nothing.”

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cin:
I hate to burst your bubble Mr. Mas, but you didn’t take the first step. Asche Lonn took the first steps when he started talking about who novas could govern themselves. Then I think the next step was when I proposed the idea of a nova legislation. Then the next steps came with the input of various people here. So, in short, your step is far from the first.

Cutting out most of the banter between Fortune and Jager, and then a few of the off-topic conversations, this is the evolution of this thread.

1: Asche Lonn proposes question of Nova legislation and Nova leadership.
2: Strobe proposes Nova extra-national status.
3: Prodigy touches upon separation of Nova and baseline.
4: Ashnod suggests council of intelligent/socially adept Novas as form of government.
5: Oddsrunner mentions Nova nation may threaten baseline world government.
6: Strobe mentions baseline opinion should carry no weight in this matter.
7: Ashnod mentions the only authority baselines have is that which Novas give them. Suggests Separation/Education/Integration idea.
8: Oddsrunner cautions not to underestimate baseline numerical power.
9: Asche Lonn asks who could wear a Nova crown, and states all it would take is Novas deciding to make a nation for it to happen.
10: Ashnod against cautions a single figurehead government.
11: Oddsrunner seconds caution against single figurehead government.
12: Strobe suggests extra-terrestial colony.
13: Argent seconds extra-terrestial colony suggestion.
14: Oddsrunner asks how Novas can abandon baseline humanity.
15: Strobe states sentimental reasons are not sufficient to prevent colony from happening.
16: Prodigy cautions against sentimental attachment.
17: Strobe concurs with Prodigy.
18: Ashnod cites that future Nova generations will not consider themselves related to baselines.
19: Prodigy ponders the problem of raising a Nova child.
20: Stheno ponders the baseline vs Nova nature conflict.
21: Fortune gives his opinion on Nova children perception.
22: Jordan agrees with Fortune, cautions that proper education might avert hostility.
23: Prodigy questions effectiveness of such education.
24: Jordan reinforces his warning.
25: MacKenzie cautions Jordan about hate and jealousy.
26: Jager accuses Teragen of killing supposed baseline children born of Terat parents.
27: Ashnod retorts Jager's accusations.
28: Jordan states Novas must take responsibility for their actions, including forming Nova nation.
29: Gareth Mayweather suggests society, becoming dependant on Novas, is already a Nova nation.
30: Vile Bill states he enjoys the perks of being a Nova in a baseline society.
31: Elizabeth touches upon Novas forming relationships for matters other than sex and reproduction.
32: Fortune spars with Jager, also mentions that Nova society doesn't equal peaceful co-existence.
33: Fortune cautions that thinking of ourselves in baseline terms is dangerous to baselines.
34: Cin presents the "if you live in a baseline country then obey the their laws" or "establish society outside of baseline boundaries," perspective.
35: Ashnod states Novas living in baseline terms is detrimental to baseline society's progression.
36: Prof. Holland retorts Ashnod's claim, mentions scientific feats.
37: Prodigy defend's Ashnod's claim, cites only scientists hear of them, media no longer pays attention.
38: Jager mentions baseline athletics to defend Holland's claim.
39: Prodigy retorts Jager's argument, cites human achievement becoming boring.
40: Fortune defends Prodigy/Ashnod's claim, cites baseline media is responsible for baseline atheletics decline due to overwhelming interest in Nova athletes.
41: Prof Holland retorts Prodigy's claim, citing scientists never get attention to begin with.
42: Fortune retorts Holland's claim, stating that Nova scientists due garner attention.
43: Jager and Fortune debate Nova evolution and biology.
44: Prodigy mentions that Novas are unattainable role models.
45: Jager states Novas will never agree on anything, cites Nova nation is therefore impossible.
46: Prof Holland adds his perspective to Nova biology.
47: Ashnod replies to Jager, says if anything is possible for Novas, have hope in our ability to create a society.
48: Asche Lonn presents a single Nova offering to lead the way scenario.
49: Prodigy states such a Nova would be doomed to failure, and that Nova legislation is not enough to curb baseline/Nova tensions.
50: Kaelan Mas posts for the first time.

To be fair, you suggested working within baseline society, becoming elected officials, and working within the system to change baseline legislation, but as this falls within the area of living within baseline society, you have grossly overestimated and overstated your influence in this matter. Be careful when chastising others lest you find yourself in the wrong as well.

[ 08-30-2002: Message edited by: Ashnod ]

[Asche]

Thank You Ashnod for your keen observations. I can see you put your power to good use.

I am very pleased to see that this topic has spurred off into more discussions and is still in the frorefront of many of your minds. But I fear the repurcussions of what is happening to two of my friends. Kaelan and Lucinda. This banter leads to nothing good, no offense to either of you.

First, Kaelan my son. You are somewhat slap-happy and are acting in haste and ultimately is not OUR place to do Anything about any form of Nova leadership. Unless you are planning on developing this government and handing over the mantle of leadership to those who will rise to it.

Secondly to the rest of you gracious enough to continue delivering input to this topic; Thank you. You have all helped me realize that this concern is out of time right now.

This is a concern for the Population of Nova's in perhaps a decade or three. Maybe your children will be more open minded and cooperative toward one another. Maybe by then, it will be realized that no form of lawmaking for Nova's and their ilk is possible due to the diverse range of feelings and cultures. After all, is the world of Baselines united under one flag?

The best idea so far was for all of you gifted ones to just admit that wherever you are, you ARE subject to the laws of the land, Nova or Baseline. Until the time when the Nova Population asks for a leader, this discussion is moot.

In the meantime, I will lend hand to thee who is falling.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

RE: No land available. Isn't there a nova or two who can raise islands?

RE: Lack of Uniformity of Nova viewpoints. True, and a point, but why stop with one? Say someone/somegroup creates a Nova island, and passes laws. They could answer the various issues in their own way, others could try the same thing on different islands. Each would try to attract nova/baseline citizens.

If someone comes up with a workable attractive solution, bingo, many of today's problems with nova-baseline interaction are solved.

[Kaelan_Mas]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
RE: No land available. Isn't there a nova or two who can raise islands?

RE: Lack of Uniformity of Nova viewpoints. True, and a point, but why stop with one? Say someone/somegroup creates a Nova island, and passes laws. They could answer the various issues in their own way, others could try the same thing on different islands. Each would try to attract nova/baseline citizens.

If someone comes up with a workable attractive solution, bingo, many of today's problems with nova-baseline interaction are solved.

Thank you Dr. Smith. In those short words you expressed what I have been trying to say.

I guess I should follow your example and keep by messages short and sweet.

[Jager]

Here is a little something to add to the fire:

What is the purpose of a government? Seriously, think about it.

They enact and enforce rules for its citizens to live by.

They conduct affairs with other governments on its citizens behalf.

They do a thousand other things, like maintain a currency, protect/infringe upon our rights and priveleges, and wage war.

Do novas need these things done for them, or could they take care of such concerns on their own?

Take me for example.

I am not really a citizen of any country. Okay, I have valid ID's for over a dozen countries, but they aren't real. I made them up or bought them.

In essence, I conduct my own foreign policy by chosing how I interact with various governmental and law enforcement agencies ... and novas. I choose.

I decide on what form of commerce my nation (of one) will conduct. Do I barter favors, knowledge, or borrow another countries means of exchange? I choose to operate in a global economy. It is convienent, but not a necessity.

Likewise, I am alone. If I am attacked, it is up to me to decide what how I will respond. If a person or nation that I have a relationship with is attacked, I decide what level of response is necessary, if any.

True, to a degree, a baseline could live like this. The difference is, as a nation of one, with no fixed address, it is far more difficult for other nations to 'get' me. Being a nova provides me with this level of freedom.

Here is a clue. Governments operate on a level of consencus. That implies repressing some degree of your freedoms to exist in such a structure. Why would I want to give up any of my freedoms? For that matter, why would you?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Jagar,

That reminds me of a story/moral/warning about an army. The claim was that it was much beter, survival-wise, for any individual to run away from a battle. But if everyone did that, their group survival rate would be terrible.

With respect, you aren't dealing with governments, you are avoiding them.

[ 08-30-2002: Message edited by: David 'Dr. Troll' Smith ]

[Stigmata]

But he's so right, we don't need them. Hell, we don't need war either. If all the soldiers ran away, there would be no one to fight and no war. Wouldn't that be nice?

Down with the Man!

[Jager]

Dr. Troll, I am going to take a different approach here. I am just going to lay out my reasoning.

I do deal with governments in a way that we both can handle.

If I sat up and said that I was a nation unto myself, what would happen? Short of hiring a bunch of novas to track me down, they can not touch me. While I guess I could sit back and say I was the 'first', what does that get me? Okay, Divis Mal was the first, but I ain't him.

Instead, I operate in a method that satisfies both of us. I get to go around and tweek things toward my desired goals. I help people out and try to make the world a slightly better place. I do so quietly so that the world governments can ignore me. They don't have to face up to the difficulty of hunting me down or trying to stop me. They don't have to face the difficulty of stopping ANY nova who puts their mind to something that works outside their world views. I am happy and their fears stay in check.

Do you understand what I am saying?

As Stigmata said, kinda, if they declare war and I don't show up, what happens? I guess we don't have a war today.

[Cin]

Ashnod,

First of all, good to hear from you again. I hope you are fairing well.

Secondly, yes, that is pretty much how the thread here went. What is not there and what you do not know of is what I stated before. Asche Lonn brought this idea up to me long before he posted it here. In our conversations I coined the phrase “Nova Legislation” in fact. It was only have many long night of conversation that he decided to ask for input here.

Dr. Smith and Mr. Mas,

There are novas that can raise islands. But you also have to consider the ecological disaster it would entail, the effect on the world’s ocean currents and tidal patterns as well as ocean level. Just raising an island like you suggest is utterly selfish and disrespectful to the Earth and the various creatures that reside here. What you suggest is just the kind of shortsightedness that leads to disaster. In addition, anywhere you choose to raise an island (if you were, theoretically to do so0 would still be under the control of a nation or in international water. Either way, if the existing governments don’t wish your island and government to exist 9generally due to fear), they will make sure it doesn’t happen, or at least it won’t exist for long.

Jager,

You make some very good points and that is probably the best explanation of “nation of one” I have yet seen. Kudos.

Lucinda "Caliber" McGuffy

"The worst thing a just person can do is nothing."

[Ashnod]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cin:
Ashnod,

First of all, good to hear from you again. I hope you are fairing well.

Secondly, yes, that is pretty much how the thread here went. What is not there and what you do not know of is what I stated before. Asche Lonn brought this idea up to me long before he posted it here. In our conversations I coined the phrase “Nova Legislation” in fact. It was only have many long night of conversation that he decided to ask for input here.

Cin,

That's all well and good, but it's still unfair to criticize poor Kaelen for something he could have absolutely no public knowledge of. We don't have means of divining what occurs before it is posted, so we act and respond according to the posts.

You might have explained that further, that the origins of this topic came about off-forum, rather than state it the way you did.

Incidently, I'm glad you are well.

[Kaelan_Mas]

Thank you Ashnod for sticking up for someone you have barely met. Ms. Lewis and I are of two different ideologies, therefore we bump heads whenever we express our opinions. What I view as progress she deems as failure and so on.

Thank you to everyone who have responded to the proposals. It is refreshing to hear many different opinions.

[Liam VanGilder]

Jager,

Your are right that avoiding antagonising governments is a workable solution. Howveer, there is a problem for novas in the long run. At the moment much of what we use for society is taken from basline infrastructure. We live in homes made by them, communicate over networks built and maintained by them and eat the food that they have grown and prepared.

To use all of these things and think that we are separate from basleine humanity is self-deception. Unless we are willing to do all the scut work; clean the streets, deliver the mail and build the machines then we have a choice between being parasites or symbiotes to the baslines.

Do not forget the countless ways most of rely on civlisation for or survival and creature comforts. Either we work alongside the baselines, really do all the work ourselves or we desecend into quantum powered barabians.

Novas may be able to survive without a technological infrastructure, even without food, water or air. However, if we do so we risk becoming petty warlords cut off from anything greater than ourselves, from our own culture. I don't think even the Teragen would be content with a nova race that evolved into something less than baseline humanity.

[Cin]

Ashnond,

What you say is true. Unfortunately, Kaelan did know about Asche Lonn's conversations with me before they showed up here. Asche Lonn, Kaelan and myself see each other and talk frequently. He did know, but I like the way he does not mention it and tries to hide behind you “sticking up” for him as he put it (no offense to you, Ashnond). He tries hard to sway public opinion, but it don’t always work as well and he’d like to think.

But, as you said, this is starting to get a bit off topic.

Lucinda “Caliber” McGuffy

“The worst thing a just person can do is nothing.”

[Kaelan_Mas]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cin:
Ashnond,

What you say is true. Unfortunately, Kaelan did know about Asche Lonn's conversations with me before they showed up here. Asche Lonn, Kaelan and myself see each other and talk frequently. He did know, but I like the way he does not mention it and tries to hide behind you “sticking up” for him as he put it (no offense to you, Ashnond). He tries hard to sway public opinion, but it don’t always work as well and he’d like to think.

But, as you said, this is starting to get a bit off topic.


Lucinda “Caliber” McGuffy

“The worst thing a just person can do is nothing.”

Ms. Lewis,
You assume too much. I, Kaelan Mas, have never been involved in a conversation with you or Asche regarding the possibility of forming a nova legislation. Frankly, I find any conversation with you difficult and frustrating.

As I said before, hearing all the various opinions on the forum is very refreshing.

Hopefully, we can set our "dirty laundry" aside and stop making it public knowledge so we both can enjoy the forum.

[Cin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaelan_Mas:
Ms. Lewis,
You assume too much. I, Kaelan Mas, have never been involved in a conversation with you or Asche regarding the possibility of forming a nova legislation. Frankly, I find any conversation with you difficult and frustrating.

I do not assume, Mr. Mas. You ben involved in the converation at various degrees and at various times and you knew of it before you began posted here. You didn't say or do much, as usual, but you were there. Your selctive memory is, once again, very interesting.

Like I said, the cold must be getting to you.


Lucinda "Caliber" McGuffy

"The worst thing a just person can do in nothing."