opnet [OpNet] Enough: A Jury of Peers

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Originally Posted By: Leliel

...How then does "Novas are not permitted in this city" differ from "Blacks/Whites/Orientals/Latinos/Amerindians/Irish/Fill in the blank are not permitted in this city"?

It doesn't. The law was as you put it, patently immoral and unconstitutional on the face of it.

Had the system been allowed to work, then the law wouldn’t have survived it’s first legal review. First judge to get a chance to look at it would have tossed it out. The mayor hopefully would have been heartily embarrassed and had his political career ruined. I would guess that’s was Utopia’a planned way of dealing with this one.

Originally Posted By: Leliel

Leaving out the Nova/Baseline, Utopia/Teragen angle entirely, enforcing laws like this in general leads down a VERY dark path...

You didn’t answer my question. Is it OK for the police to ignore laws they don’t agree with, and does that mean pro-life police can let clinics be shut down and doctors be killed? How about racist police, could they let off any white for attacking any black?

Originally Posted By: Leliel

...Some laws are patently immoral...

Very true. The problem is that different people can have different opinions on which laws are which. The question then becomes, who do you want making that decision? A judge working in the public eye or some beat cop out on the street? And in case anyone has forgotten, we’ve got a nova on the supreme court.

[Preston]

Dr. Troll, it is the job of the legislature to determine what the law is, not the judiciary. The judiciary has some leeway in interpreting a law, but they normally don't decide which ones are immoral. Judicial review can decide wether a law is legal, or not, by comparing it to existing and/or higher statutes like the Constitution.

It is the Executive branch that determines how the laws will be enforced, though. Follow that command ladder down far enough and you end up with the beat cop. Your local police force has to decide daily on how it will enforce all kinds legislation each day with the resources it has available. Beat cops are making judgement calls all the time. Its part of their job and if you were a law enforcement professional, you would have know that.

As I'm looking at the resources being devoted to Domestic Violence and Youth Crimes task forces, I can but hope my officers will be more than mindless automatons. I would prefer them to be thinking guardians of the society they are members of.

As for the rest of it; the municipal ordnance expelling and excluding novas from within Tampa city limits was immoral at face value. Yes, it was legal at that moment in time, and yes its a personal judgement call of mine. I still would not have enforced it, even at the cost of my job. That why actual police officers get ethics training these days.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Dr. Troll, it is the job of the legislature to determine what the law is, not the judiciary.

True, but that one was unconstitutional.

[Machina]

I always wondered what a dozen mutants jerking off in unison would look like.

[Warren Verona]

I dont think Timeslip intended this to become a legal debate. Your opinions of the laws don't mean shit. Why? Because you don't have any power to change them, so shut up, bend the fuck over, and take it like the rest of the people who choose to live by them.

Or become a Terat.

Timeslip posted asking for Four, Four, and Four. Not for a fuckin dick waving contest, seriously people, either volunteer, or shut the fuck up already, I'm already sick of reading people post half cocked truths about ther laws and not a single one of you morons are even pecialists in the field.

Just because your a mega brain and you read a book on it does not make you an expert. Hell, compaired to half of you I'm a damn expert and I only took the exams needed to get this badge and a few months shaved off my probation.

Quit wasting the ladies' time.

[Sandcaster]

Why the wonder, Machina? You could have just recorded yourself and run a mix.

*sigh*

As to this whole trial business... no. This happened in Dutch territory, and jurisdiction falls under the Dutch court system. Timeslip, if you want your day in court, that's where to find it. Jury selection will keep the worst of the novaphobes - and novaphiles - from taking part. If Project Utopia has any sense at all, they will not accede to your demands of apartheid; the damage to the Zurich Accord would be irreparable.

Frankly, in my opinion, you killed an officer of the law; the burden is upon you to establish that said officer was not in the legal exercise of her duties at the time, and could reasonably be believed to be an imminent threat to your life. If you cannot establish such, I rather hope that you find yourself moxed in some dark hole for the next century or two.

[z-Silvestru]

Originally Posted By: Revenant

Timeslip posted asking for Four, Four, and Four. Not for a fuckin dick waving contest, seriously people, either volunteer, or shut the fuck up already, I'm already sick of reading people post half cocked truths about ther laws and not a single one of you morons are even pecialists in the field.

For someone who claims to have some specialized knowledge, Revenant, you sure don't know what you're talking about. You don't volunteer for a jury; that's Civics 101.

And as Sandcaster so aptly put it, this entire affair has been a dick/clitoris waving contest: there is no way this trial will go forward in any legal fashion. Even if a group did put it on, they wouldn't have the authority to do so.

I believe that it's your turn to shut the fuck up.

[Preston]

There is a gulf between the current legal institutions and the ability of society to enforce these laws on an unwilling nova population. Christ on a crutch, is it that hard to wrap your minds around?

Sitting around and saying "the system works" is suicidal, and obviously so, or hasn't the fact that Divis Mal and Geryon, as well as Timeslip, stilling being free registered?

Wake up! Pax lost and Mal won. It no longer 'a matter of time' before Project Utopia and Team Tomorrow bring the criminals in the Teragen to justice. The reality is that they, baseline humanity's strongest force, don't have the ability. With the number of novas defecting from Utopia's ranks and the rising number of terats, it is not going to happen eventually, either.

If novas do not find a way to reign in independent-minded novas who have a total disregard for the lives and livelihoods of baseline humans, it will be genocide. Even worse, it will be our own damn faults that we couldn't rub our super-freaking intellects together long enough to come up with a solution. I'm not jumping for joy over the idea that this may result in some kind of trial or tribunal. It sickens me, but if we don't start somewhere, we wont get anywhere.

[Warren Verona]

Originally Posted By: Sylvan

Originally Posted By: Revenant

Timeslip posted asking for Four, Four, and Four. Not for a fuckin dick waving contest, seriously people, either volunteer, or shut the fuck up already, I'm already sick of reading people post half cocked truths about ther laws and not a single one of you morons are even pecialists in the field.

For someone who claims to have some specialized knowledge, Revenant, you sure don't know what you're talking about. You don't volunteer for a jury; that's Civics 101.

And as Sandcaster so aptly put it, this entire affair has been a dick/clitoris waving contest: there is no way this trial will go forward in any legal fashion. Even if a group did put it on, they wouldn't have the authority to do so.

I believe that it's your turn to shut the fuck up.

Oops, my bad. Sorry. I forgot, you have vastly more legal experience than I do. First you kill your husband, then your daddy. What's next, gonna gut mommy and find away out of that too?

Fuck you people. I'm done with this.

Wave your dicks, have fun. You all can fuckin' rot for all I care.

[Gryle]

Tampa's hastily-repealed law was the act of a fool. He wanted to create an incident, that much was obvious. Maybe some press coverage of him 'standing firm' against protesting novas, some reaping of praise for his 'courage' for taking such a stand against the super-men. And all the while hiding behind baseline law and Team Tomorrow's skirts like a spoiled child throwing rocks at his elders then retreating behind his mother.

It never occurred to him until too late that there are big kids out there that don't care who his Mommy was, that have their own code of conduct and live by it. Geryon's takedown of Rupert was messy, to my eyes. He killed and injured a lot of baselines simply as punctuation to his statement, and to work off a little aggression too, I don't doubt.

A much more powerful statement would have been made if he ignored the others present and just killed that fool of a Mayor, then left. That would have given the impression that he came to deliver his brand of justice, and having done so, was no threat to anyone else present.

That sort of restraint is worth a thousand needless deaths when it comes to making a statement. Cold-blooded execution makes a louder noise than a roaring, rampaging monster.

As for the rest of this:

Timeslip, I do not think you will get your trial. Too many novas think of themselves as humans with add-ons, too many humans regard novas with fear and awe to ever be reliable when one is in the dock. Awe and fear can turn so quickly to spite and ranting when they see the 'gods' descend to their own level.

The human loves nothing so much as to tear down his icons and break them, so that he might rise above them. And too many novas are human under the node.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Tampa's hastily-repealed law was the act of a fool. He wanted to create an incident, that much was obvious.

Shades of Governor Orval Faubus and Little Rock. I haven't bothered checking but I'd guess Rupert might have also been giving himself cover for a tax increase.

Quote:

Timeslip, I do not think you will get your trial. Too many novas think of themselves as humans with add-ons, too many humans regard novas with fear and awe to ever be reliable when one is in the dock. Awe and fear can turn so quickly to spite and ranting when they see the 'gods' descend to their own level.

Nonsense. She could get a trial right now by surendering herself to the Hague or where ever.

However I can't immagine 4/4/4. I'm even having a hard time beliving that 0/0/12 is a good idea.

[Leliel]

Originally Posted By: David 'Dr. Troll' Smith

Quote:

Tampa's hastily-repealed law was the act of a fool. He wanted to create an incident, that much was obvious.

Shades of Governor Orval Faubus and Little Rock. I haven't bothered checking but I'd guess Rupert might have also been giving himself cover for a tax increase.

Quote:

Timeslip, I do not think you will get your trial. Too many novas think of themselves as humans with add-ons, too many humans regard novas with fear and awe to ever be reliable when one is in the dock. Awe and fear can turn so quickly to spite and ranting when they see the 'gods' descend to their own level.

Nonsense. She could get a trial right now by surendering herself to the Hague or where ever.

However I can't immagine 4/4/4. I'm even having a hard time beliving that 0/0/12 is a good idea.

Which brings us back to the whole point. Yes, she could get a trial easily by turning herself in to the World Court, UN, or some other baseline organization. The question is could she get a fair trial by doing so.

I have my doubts.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Define "fair". If that means a trial where her fellow Terats get to threaten the jury, then I hope not.

If "fair" means a review and judgement by a neutral body, with presumtion of innocence, then probably yes. She might even be able to specify a judge, there are a few nova judges around.

[Timeslip]

In many instances, naïvety can be an endearing trait. In this instance, Dr. Troll, it is not.

Even if I were to submit to trial by a separate species from myself (and no, a politically expedient declaration by the United Nations does not a fact create), I could not receive a fair hearing under said conditions. When a member of the One Race has undergone any significant degree of evolution, there is no longer any such thing as an "impartial" reaction by baselines to said nova; we strike a primal chord of dissonance within them. While a minority react to this effect by becoming enamored with us (a minority that would most assuredly be screened from any prospective jury by the prosecution team), the vast majority find us to be unsettling at a fundamental level. Under these conditions and the limits of baseline cognitive strength, expecting anything resembling a "fair trial" by them is naïve to the point of laughable.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Not naivety, TS, ignorance. We've never met, and over this forum you don't come off as altered.

I guess my first reaction is "Dear god woman, what have you been doing to yourself?" But that's not helpful.

...part of me feels there is a level of dis-ingenuity here. This reminds me of the joke about the man who, having killed his parents, pleaded for clemency because he was an orphan. You rejected law, tainted yourself up, rushed into a dangerous situation, killed a cop, and now you complain about the difficulty of a fair trial.

However that’s not helpful either, and there are three considerations that strongly say this issue should be dealt with. In order of importance, first, because you have the right to a fair trial. Everyone does. Second, because taint and trails are going to come up again. Third, because you aren’t a captive and thus there won’t be a trial without your approval.

…the only possible solution I see for this is a nova judge. Would that be acceptable?

[Leliel]

Originally Posted By: David 'Dr. Troll' Smith

Define "fair". If that means a trial where her fellow Terats get to threaten the jury, then I hope not.

If "fair" means a review and judgement by a neutral body, with presumtion of innocence, then probably yes. She might even be able to specify a judge, there are a few nova judges around.

I refered to the second, but I find myself agreeing with Timeslip's last post. Novas, especially Elevated Novas, do indeed seem to have a dissonant effect on baselines. Whether this reason is physical, quantum-based, or psychological I do not know.

But the end result is the same. The further we evolve, the more disconcerting we are to baselines. Because of this I must concur with Timeslip's assertion that it would be difficult to say the least, for her to get a fair trial in a baseline court.

And Timeslip, I for one find the starfield effect that surrounds (or is?) you very attractive. Your husband is indeed blessed among the One Race.

[Timeslip]

Dr. Troll: I did not "taint myself up". My appearance - a photograph of which may be found here - has remained constant from the date of my eruption. Yes, my evolution has continued beyond that point, but it has done so in a far more managed format, and my unique elements (such as my voice) are by design.

Did I "rush" into a dangerous situation? Of course I did, as did everyone else present. The feral nova was a fast-moving and somewhat unknown variable that did not permit a great deal of luxury in that regard; time was of the essence.

Did I kill Excavator? Yes. That said, and as has been made clear before, my action with regard to Excavator were purely from self-defense. Had she acted within the constraints of her (dubious) office, had she issued a warning of some sort rather than attempting to attack me without warning, she would still be alive today. Indeed, she is still alive today in any number of temporal streams where she showed proper discretion in the exercise of her office.

Finally, as to the trial, a nova judge is not only acceptable, but is required. But the matter does not rest there. The judge does not reach a verdict; rather, the jury has that obligation. And when all else is set aside, a baseline jury is simply incapable of reaching an objective decision regarding a defendant of the One Race.

Leliel: If my husband was blessed, it would seem that he does not believe so; he is pursuing a divorce at this time, in large part due to this situation and its impact within the baseline Japanese cultural paradigm.

[Neil Preston]

Elevated novas? Reason #2 why I won't join the Teragen.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Originally Posted By: Timeslip

Finally, as to the trial, a nova judge is not only acceptable, but is required. But the matter does not rest there. The judge does not reach a verdict; rather, the jury has that obligation. And when all else is set aside, a baseline jury is simply incapable of reaching an objective decision regarding a defendant of the One Race.

You missed my point. You have the right to demand a trial by jury. AFAICT, you don't have the right to pick people for it.

However, a trial does not actually need a jury. If the defendant is willing, Judges can make those calls. There are advantages and disadvantages to having a trial by Judge. They are less prone to being confused by council's legal manuverings, etc.

So I'll ask the question again, are you willing to face trial by judge if it's in front of a nova judge or judges?

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Timeslip

Did I kill Excavator? Yes. That said, and as has been made clear before, my action with regard to Excavator were purely from self-defense. Had she acted within the constraints of her (dubious) office, had she issued a warning of some sort rather than attempting to attack me without warning, she would still be alive today. Indeed, she is still alive today in any number of temporal streams where she showed proper discretion in the exercise of her office.

Wow, talk about blaming the victim! Timeslip, you just lost any respect I might of had for you. The choice to kill was yours and yours alone. You can blame no one else for for what you did, and it could even be said that if you had chosen not to interfere in a legal situation then things may have gone very differently. Choices. I would think someone who can manipulate time would've gotten that by now.

I am curious, while you sit here and moan about how a fair trial is impossible and think up stupid ways to try and twist the laws to your advantage, have you given any thought to your victim and the people she's left behind? Have you bothered to find out Excavator's real name? Whether she was married or had kids? Have you bother to find out how your actions have affected the lives of her loved ones?

To be honest Timeslip I hope you are somehow held accountable for you actions and poor judgement. I hope you are somehow punished. Excavator's family deserves that Justice.

[Timeslip]

Tempest, I am well aware of the identity and circumstances regarding Min "Excavator" Ho. She had remarkable potential, and her death is far from lost on me. Indeed, her death haunts me on a daily basis, and not only because of my legal status. That said, what precisely is it that you would have me do? She was about to reduce me to my component atoms, and to be blunt, my choices at that moment were to permit my own death or to "shoot first".

I don't like inflicting harm on novas. It is something that I take rather great pains to avoid. At Ibiza, I protected novas and baselines alike at the triage hospital. When Shen Khan threatened deadly harm on my family, I counselled all involved to spare his life and impose exile instead. And even in Amsterdam, Dauntless of T2M owes me her life when I protected her from the idiotic actions of Tremor.

But when someone is about to kill me, when they have me flat-footed and without other recourse, I can and will defend myself with deadly force: it is my right. If you want to see me punished for defending myself, I would suggest that you are in the wrong.

[Timeslip]

Dr. Troll,

I find your proposal acceptable. I will waive my right to a jury of my peers and accept trial by a judge of the One Race.

That said, if Project Utopia does not recognize said trial, the matter is largely moot; there is little point to the effort if they will not recognize the result. If you would be so kind, please make contact with the requisite people in your organization and inform them of my intent.

[Trooper]

Originally Posted By: Timeslip

Indeed, her death haunts me on a daily basis, and not only because of my legal status.

Why the fuck? I mean, would you rather she excavated your rib cage? No? Then fuck her. She lost, you won.

[Roma]

Originally Posted By: Tempest

Wow, talk about blaming the victim!

Maybe this is a taint thing. They say taint can fry your brain.

[Timeslip]

It is possible, Trooper, to regret even a necessary death.

[Trooper]

Originally Posted By: Timeslip

It is possible, Trooper, to regret even a necessary death.

I know it's possible. It just ain't necessary. Get over it.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Originally Posted By: Timeslip

Dr. Troll,

...If you would be so kind, please make contact with the requisite people in your organization and inform them of my intent.

I'm sure this is monitored, but consider it... (pause while email is sent out to various people) done.

Who's your lawyer?

[Timeslip]

At this time, Dr. Troll, I have little choice other than to represent myself. Lawyers of the One Race are few, far between, and booked at least several months in advance.

[Tempest]

Originally Posted By: Timeslip

She was about to reduce me to my component atoms, and to be blunt, my choices at that moment were to permit my own death or to "shoot first".

How about not blaming her for a choice you made? Your choices in that instant were yours, not hers, regardless of how much your options sucked. Blaming the victim for your actions is just pathetic and cowardly.

Quote:

But when someone is about to kill me, when they have me flat-footed and without other recourse, I can and will defend myself with deadly force: it is my right. If you want to see me punished for defending myself, I would suggest that you are in the wrong.

No. You involved yourself in a police action (the equivelent there of) by choice. You put yourself in that situation for whatever reason and because of your meddling and actions, Excavator is now dead. At best that's reckless endangerment and wrongful death of an officer, at worst your a cold blooded murderer. The fact that you cannot see the stupidity of your own actions and think I'm wrong for want to see you punished just proves to me that this whole trial bit is a sham. You aren't interested in Justice, you just want validation for murder.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Originally Posted By: Timeslip

At this time, Dr. Troll, I have little choice other than to represent myself. Lawyers of the One Race are few, far between, and booked at least several months in advance.

This is going to be a media mess. Expect offers.

[Timeslip]

A police action, Tempest? I think not. No, the situation was something of a free-for-all, with everyone present at cross purposes and no realistic effort - by Team Tomorrow or anyone else - to "arrest" anyone (with the exception of poorly-executed efforts to grab the feral nova).

When someone, with or without a badge, points the equivalent of a very large canon at your head and starts to squeeze the trigger without preamble or warning, they are not acting as an "officer of the peace"; rather, they are acting as a soldier at best and a killer at worst.

The sad thing - the truly sad thing - is that the few efforts that were made that day to limit the debacle were unsuccessful.

[Preston]

Police officers are not always required to announce themselves when acting in an official capacity. Unless they are acting in an undercover operation, they may act in the manner that saves the most lives. Otherwise you would have SWAT snipers being forced to give themselves away in breaching operations, which would endanger the lives of the other officers.

If a police officer shoots anybody, there is automatically an investigation. If they are found to have used excessive force, they face charges like everyone else.

The problem is that having recognized a member of T2M, Timeslip chose to lethal force. Will the court recognize T2Mers as legitimate law enforcement agents?

Will they accept that in this incident that T2M was acting in a legitimate capacity, trying to apprehend the feral nova?

[Leliel]

But on the other hand if a police officer has not identified him/herself as such, and appears to be just a guy holding a gun, someone facing that gun could indeed feel that their life was in danger.

[Timeslip]

Preston: I hope you can understand why the knowledge that, had I stayed my hand and allowed myself to be disintegrated, Excavator would have been investigated by Team Tomorrow would be a rather cold comfort to me.

[Tempest]

And had Timeslip not attemped to take the law into her own hands Excavator would still be alive...

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Originally Posted By: Leliel

But on the other hand if a police officer has not identified him/herself as such...

If you can see the uniforms, then they've identified themselves.

But as far as I know, that's not an issue.

[Preston]

Leliel, not only has Timeslip said she recognized the deceased as a member of T2M, but that she even knew precisely which member she was. The fact that she recognized Excavator is part of the basis for her defense that she felt her life was in immediate danger.

Timeslip, I hope you understand how much law enforcement officers need the leeway to make the judgement call of what to do. In general, it is more useful to announce your presence and what you want the suspect to do. I don't know what was going threw Excavator's mind in the moments before her death. I do believe that any judge that accepts the legitimacy of T2M's actions will find you guilty.

[Leliel]

And just what law are you refering to? Is T2M now the "official" group to bring in new novas such as the feral one in question?

By all of Infinity I hope not. They likely would have brought him to Bahrain, and if 5 percent of the rumors I have heard about the place are true, it belongs in the annals of history right up there with other facilities such as Bergen-Belsen, Birkenau (Auschwitz's "Extermination section", and Buchenwald.

[Sakurako Hino]

Originally Posted By: David 'Dr. Troll' Smith

Originally Posted By: Leliel

But on the other hand if a police officer has not identified him/herself as such...

If you can see the uniforms, then they've identified themselves.

But as far as I know, that's not an issue.

So, if some common joe puts on a police uniform, does that make him a police officer? Because that is just what you implied. I thought I'd point that out.

[Tempest]

NO Endeavor, but if you saw someone in a cop's uniforn would your first assumtion be that they were or weren't a cop?