Aberrant RPG - Quantum 6+

[Tangent]

I have noticed that a lot of people assume a high Quantum rating means untouchable and all powerful in this game. I have never thought that Q alone was the only indicator of a Novas true power.

It can be said that because of experience and time it takes to develop a higher than 6 rating that the person will have a great many powers to pull from. This isn't exactly the case. A person could have devoted all their play XP into developing a higher quantum and put little to no points into developing powers. This can even be explain IC by the person just naturally (or unnaturally) growing without taking the time to practice. The concept of huge potential but no discipline.

Other things to consider are Node as well as levels of powers. Having the raw power doesn't mean you can channel it well or know the finer points of control.

On another hand we have the specialist. A high Q and high power rating in only one area. This makes them particularly powerful in one aspect but doesn't help them in a broad sense.

But keep in mind that by 2010, 12 years after Nday there are several Novas with only slightly less Quantum than Mal yet, he still far exceeds them. Not because of his raw power but, how well he knows what to do with said power.

I guess it all comes down to individual perception.

[Hugin]

Well, having been in two campaigns that have destructed once Q6 was attained I have opinions.

Q6 allows for level 4 powers which are poorly written and some of which should never be allowed in gameplay. Q6 allows for Mastery, which is also poorly written. There is no requirement for Mastery stating that someone has to have 5 dots in a given power, so you can have Quantum Bolt 1 with Mastery slapped on it for extremely cheap.

You don't need a node score. You can instar Node and still use Q6 and level 4 powers quite happily. It can be nice, but it isn't mandatory or even overly helpful.

As far as the difference between here and a TT setting goes I think the difference is important when considering Q6. Here, there are no 'points'. If you open the Q6 door you can have pretty much everything. There are character who've been here for years that are still Q2s and seem to have no problem running well throught out and deep characters. So, I don't see the need for access to Q6+ in order to make a fun character.

[Tangent]

This isnt a arguement for the need of Q6+ characters here. This is just my observation on those quantum scores in general. If Mastery bothers you or any of the lvl 4+ powers then simple house rule them. Fix what you don't like it works for TT it should work fine here.

Your absolutely right there are stories for Q of 2 but there are stories for every Quantum rating. Q does not and should not ever impede or hinder a story.

As I said though this post isn't just about here. It's in general.

[Hugin]

Most of my response was regarding Aberrant in general also.

Next game I run, NO mastery and NO level 4 powers. I just don't appreciate that I have to house rule like that in order to keep the game from going kerblooey. WW seems to think that making the primary rule of the ST system "What the ST says, goes" gives free reign for putting out shit editing or poorly thought out product. I would say that there are stories, great stories even, for Q6 characters out there. But those stories are hard to get when the rules for Q6 characters are a giant steaming pile of shit. And saying "well, don't rule's lawyer it or power game then" doesn't cut it. Any system, ANY system can be cut open by a rules lawyer or powergamer, but these rules invite it, hell encourage it while at the same time claiming to be above it. It's annoying.

[Essex]

James, I do see your point but I also see PheonixForce's. Level 4 powers and Mastery can completely alter the face of the game. In some ways they are meant to. However, that soldn't preclude their use and exploration in a contained setting. You've had bad experiences with them. I haven't. So who's opinion is right?

Believe me when I say I've played both end of the power spectrum (here and at my TT game) and while I see a need to be cautious and respectfull, I don't see a need for paranoia and ourtright banning of these things.

My goal with Jason was to have fun and tell a darn good story. It was the same goal I had with Jordan. So why is one okay and the other not?

[Hugin]

When you've been fucked twice by something it isn't paranoia, it's learning. Neither of these intstances were the result of rules lawyering or powergaming either. Simply from the game not being able to handle to consequences of those power levels and survive. Fuck, someone gets dominated and we lost all of Tokyo!

[Essex]

And your point? Because Tokyo was vaporized meant that the game must end? My GMs are very big on actions and concequences. In the game I was in, one of the players caused California to go bye-bye. We were shocked but it didn't make us stop playing; we just took our game to a whole new level and had a lot of fun with it.

[Tangent]

Tokyo always get's it. It's the wipping boy of every super powered teenage brat, Conquesting aliens and giant lizard/robot. That's just to be expected.

[Hugin]

It also involved player deaths and was close enough to the planned end of the game that we just threw our hands up.

My point is that one simple, basic, common occurence led to extreme circumstances. I consider that sloppy design.

[Essex]

Some could also say that it was sloppy prepairedness (is that even a word?) on the part of the GM (No offence meant by that). I do, however, agree that WW didn't really put much though into the ramifications of these powers, but then they are notoriously bad for that anyways.

[Hugin]

Some offense taken actually. You will likely not meet someone as self critical as I am. If I felt that there was a chance I had fucked up I would never blame the system. I'd blame myself.

It was a domination. The dominator told them to kill each other (using Area, thus making sure even if he only got one they'd have their hands full). This is basic Gaming 101. Domination, happens in nearly every single genre. Hell, I went to a Con once and my buddy Chris was dominated in every single game we played during the con!! Five games, three different genres. A game that demands you drop concepts as the power gets up there because it can be uncomfortable is a poorly designed game.

[Tangent]

So are you saying a person would have to have Q6+ in order to dominate? It just seems your talking about one broken power. Which to be honest anyone with high will, psychic shield or invun: Mental could have resisted.

The point is it doesn't seem to be much of a real power issue. The same thing could have been down to anyone high or low power.

[Hugin]

Nooooo. The dominator did have Q6 yes, but it wasn't his quantum score that happened to be the problem. It was the Spacial Manipulator with Q6 Area/Mastery that happened to get dominated that caused the problem.

As to the second point, without Mastery the damage wouldn't have taken out the entire city, but rather just a block or two. You can deal with that kind of destruction in a story a little easier. Whenever any mistake results in another Sao Paolo it gets silly.

[Tangent]

Isn't that the point of those levels of power? Not that the system is broken but since a Q6 can destroy a city and it did destroy a city it did exactly what it was supposed to?

Plus it still looks like your problem is dominate not Q6+

[Hugin]

There is just too huge a jump in range and area of effect due to Mastery. The effect dice or levels only double, but the area of effect and range is multiplied by 1000? Bad design.

Again, Dominate is a basic power that appears in nearly every single game in some form or another. You dominate in another game and usually you don't have the landscape modified in ways visible from space.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

It does answer the question about how a handful of people caused the war and threatened mankind.

Rule to be learned (and it is a player thing, not an ST thing), if you are a walking nuke, then have some way to defend the switch.

[target]

ok, I ran a game that ran into mastery. The game lasted for a timed 35 minutes afterward!!!

when you get a character that can clone and teleport at will, no cost, no upkeep, and able to shoot qbolts at everything!!?!?!?

WORLD DOMINATION!!!!!

and NEway, if a charcter gets that powerful, don't you think the quantum sensitive powers that be would have something to say about it, like leviathan, PAX, T2M, hell even proteus would get their hands into it.

yes it changes the game, from hunter to hunted!!!!

make sure the charcter accepts the resposiblities for his actions, and he can always make a new charcter!!!

[Neil Preston]

I am curious how you get Clone at no cost and no upkeep at Q:6?

[Hugin]

At Q6 you get to exchange successes for cost. You can get freebie uses reeeeeealll easy.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Clone + Mastery.

He can't have "free" extras on that because it is a level 4 power, but he doesn't need to.

Assuming you create them one at a time, each Clone costs 0.5 q, and lasts for Q+L hours or scenes. Many/most ST's let Clone pay maintenance to maintain the clones. Say you make 10 clones which were created at different times, you could argue that each pays his 0.5 q (i.e. nothing) seperately. And even if he does have to pay 5q once or twice a day, he probably regains that pretty quick.

For an added trick, if you have Node 4+ and Adaptability, one of the clones can go to the center of the sun and regen 1q per round (the sun is an atomic reactor). You could even have the orginal do it.

Teleport + Mastery + Reduced Q Cost + Combat Teleport.

A level 3 power with Mastery and Reduced Q-Cost would have a q cost of 3 => 1 => 0.

[Essex]

I hate to tell you guys but the Extras aren't free; they just don't bump the power up a level. You still have to pay for the extra (although it's a lot cheeper than extras that raise the power's level).

[Hugin]

With Q6 you can exchange successes for extras really easy. You don't need to purchase them outright. And, once you've got to Q6 you will usually have a nice enough dice pool to be able to do so without losing a lot in doing so.

[Jager]

On the Clone front, I don't think you can create one clone, then another, then another, add infinitum.

1+1+1+1=4 (or, 0.5+ 0.5 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 2, if at half cost), not 0.

With Mastered Clone(6) at Q 6, you could make 24 clones for 12q (you can create Q+L clones; mastery doubles the numbers and halves the cost).

Your way would allow someone to create 24 clones a round, until they ran out of quantum. Though it does not specifically say you have a limit on the total number of clones, it does state that

{APG, pg.63

,,

Quote:

... he spends one quantum point per duplicate he wishes to create (up to the maximum listed above).

I read this to mean that you can create a maximum total of Q+level in clones, and that is the total number of clones you can have in existance at any one time.

Otherwise, we should go back to the original definition of clones to stop the madness (and castrate cloning).

Boy, I love the editting done on these books.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

You can't spend a half a point of quantum and if you are in that possition it rounds in favor of the character.

Claws + Reduced q cost doesn't charge you a point of q every other time you turn it on.

Thus if you make 5 clones, one at a time, and they are at half cost, then you pay nothing. Ditto if you have Healing+Mastery and keep it to one health level. Every power activation is a seperate action and doesn't "remember" the other actions.

On a side note: It isn't half cost, it is one quarter cost. Every point of q normally generates 1 clone. With Mastery, the cost is cut in half (0.5), and the effect is doubled (2 clones). So it should cost 0.25 for a single clone. Ditto for healing, 1 q heals 4 health levels.

As for the number of clones, I always assumed the total number was Q+L (or 2x[Q+L] if you have Mastery).

[Jake Cosmos Stafford]

Why does it matter how many you can have. As I understand it they wouldn't they have straight 1's bye that point?

[Kirby1024]

The Player's Guide changed (for the better, I think) how Clone works. Now, Clone effectively gives up to (Quantum + Clone) identical clones, but you have to spend 1QP for each clone, and (I believe). The reduction of Traits has been eliminated.

[Jager]

Doc, that would require a ST's definition of what Mastery does, I guess.

So, does it double the number of clones you can have (the maximum allowed) or does it double the effect of the quantum expenditure, while it halves the cost?

My definition, and its only my interpretations of what the rules say, is that the overall effect is doubled (the Q+Level # of clones is doubled), while the quantum cost is halved, not quartered.

Thus,

Clone 1 cost 0,

Clone 2 costs 1,

Clone 3 costs 0,

Clone 4 costs +1,

up until Clone 24 costs you a total of 12.

Doc, would your method allow only 12 clones max.?

Also, the duration doesn't seem to increase, because the power isn't maintenance.

Me, I would increase the duration to hours, though it doesn't specifically say so. It makes sense that the duration would be increased somewhat. Mastery II has Concetration powers becomeing maintenance (Q+Lvl)hours. It would make sense to do the same thing at Mastery I for a power that already lasted a scene.

Kirby is right, in that APG improved Clone. I think to use Clone+Mastery in such a manner to create unlimited clone at no cost is abusive.

A limit is mentioned. I think it should be used.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Jager:So, does it double the number of clones you can have (the maximum allowed) or does it double the effect of the quantum expenditure, while it halves the cost?

Generally speaking, all perameters of the power are effected. There shouldn't be an "or" in there.

Limits are increased by a 1000 (area and/or range).
Effects doubles (damage, soak, etc).
Clone limit isn't specifically covered by either of those, but I think doubling it is better than x1000.

Quote:

Jager:Also, the duration doesn't seem to increase, because the power isn't maintenance.

The examples they gave stopped at "scenes", but durations longer than "instant" always increased. I would move it to Q+L scenes or hours.

Quote:

Jager:I think to use Clone+Mastery in such a manner to create unlimited clone at no cost is abusive.
A limit is mentioned. I think it should be used.

Not unlimited. Limited to the clone limit.

Quote:

Jager:My definition, and its only my interpretations of what the rules say, is that the overall effect is doubled (the Q+Level # of clones is doubled), while the quantum cost is halved, not quartered.
Thus,
Clone 1 cost 0,
Clone 2 costs 1,

Q-Cost is halved, but effect is also doubled, just like any other power.

I am slightly uncomfortable increasing the q cost for the second clone. Normally, a use of a q-power doesn't depend on previous uses, but the counter arguement is in this case Clone is an active power. However, the rules are pretty clear that 1 q would create 4 clones, not 2.

But Clone falls into a fairly grey area since it is so unusual.

Would you have Healing do 1 q for 4 health levels?
Would you let Healing heal one health level for 0 q, once per scene?

[Jager]

Q-Cost is halved, but effect is also doubled, just like any other power.

The cost is halved (1q = 2clones), and the effect is doubled {Q+L becomes (Q+L)x2}.

Would you have (1q = 4clones), but keep the maximum (Q+L) in place?

This isn't a Quantum Bolt. It's Clone. Q-Bolt has a set cost, while Clone has a variable cost. Also, the Clone does not qualify for the Area Effect or Range increases because the clone is created on contact. Range:Self.

I am slightly uncomfortable increasing the q cost for the second clone. Normally, a use of a q-power doesn't depend on previous uses, but the counter arguement is in this case Clone is an active power. However, the rules are pretty clear that 1 q would create 4 clones, not 2.

Doc, it is clear to you, but I precieve it as abusive and not clear cut. I find creating 24 clones for 6q to be insane, even for Mastery.

Also, could someone create multiple forceFields with the same power?

I have seen ST's allow someone with the Wall extra use it while their personal FF was up, but they only got the benefit of the best soak, not both.

But Clone falls into a fairly grey area since it is so unusual.

Damn skippy. I wish they had an official errata site we could post this to. Get an offical call on this.

Would you have Healing do 1 q for 4 health levels?

No. I would allow the maximum allowed healing to double. That is, you could spend 1q to heal two levels, up to a maximum/scene of Levelx4 Bashing, or Levelx2 Lethal. Also, you could heal 2 levels of Aggravated Damage for 3q (pg. 254), up to a maximum of Levelx2.

Would you let Healing heal one health level for 0 q, once per scene?

Yes. The limitation of one use per scene is still in effect, so that would work.

Yes, they could do this to as many people as they could touch during a scene, too.

Too many of the powers need individual attention when it comes to mastery. Clone does not equate to Healing, does not equate to Density Control.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Too many of the powers need individual attention when it comes to mastery. Clone does not equate to Healing, does not equate to Density Control.

True, and if I were blessed with Q6, and I had Clone+Mastery, I would be happy to live with your interpretation.

For Heal, Mastery might not be a good idea. It might be better to get Ranged and Reduced Q-Cost. Then you could powermax and slap MIRV on it and heal everyone you can see for one health level. This in turn raises the question, what is the Difference between Mastery and Reduced Q-Cost for Heal? Perhaps we should allow it to be used twice per scene?

[Matryoshka]

Mastery with q-bolt,with MIRV means that you havea nova that could level every city on the earten sea board within a span of a minute.

That is with one power, then add a few things like hyper movement/telaport, maybe precog blocking.Bang, roughly 70 places on earth that could have 100 million plus ex-living people, with no reasonable way to stop it.I would say dead, but dead implies that there is a body .

Now, that is not counting the fallout. I mena, think of the winds,and eveormanital changes that hapen with all that new carbon in the air, to say the least.

[Jager]

Doc, Mastery would allow you to double the effect of what you could heal in a scene. It would also reduce the quantum cost.

On the other hand, Area Effect+RQC would cause a wave of healing to come out form you and heal everyone in a 60m radius for up to 12 bashing, or 6 lethal levels for a cost of 6q.

[Jager]

Signy,

If someone has that much power, their existance is a threat. Thus, the concern about Pax and Mal, who can do things just like what you describe. They don't have to be criminals to be feared.

Hypermovement and Teleportation? Why? Do you understand that with Mastery and Teleport, your combat teleport is in kms, anyway.

As an ST, I wouldn't think this person would survive the first attack. The death of 100+ million people makes quite an echo. The Precog might not see you, but they see the carnage you commit. See, you forgot to mention Intuition.

The rest is just power-gaming. Precog blocking with a city wasting power? Pointless.

[Matryoshka]

But the novas that have the power to stop you are few and far between so the precog blocking powers would hide where you are..So they know you are somewhere in texas...

[Jager]

No, Signy, they know were you are going to show up, not were you are. Yeah, we lose part of NYC, but your over-powered character is toast.

Thus, one of the most likely start of the aberrant wars.

[Matryoshka]

Mastery makes the range to be something like a thosand miles.They know where you are down to an area the size of most nations.

[Hugin]

Since we are talking silly powergaming here, I've always been entranced with Quantum Blast 5 + Extended Range (line of sight) + MegaPerception 5 and Telescopic Vision (100,000X Vision) + Flight (Only a Dot needed) + Hypermovement (Only a Dot Needed, maybe two) and enough MegaStamina to live in near orbit.

Fly in the sky, say 100 miles above the earth, max to get 2 successes, trade those for Area on the Q Bolt, and shoot the White House from Orbit.

Jager, Precogs are only aware of the stuff coming if they concentrate on an area or a person and only get a short time span. They are far, far, far from infalible.

[Jager]

Quote:

For dramatic purposes, the Storyteller may, at his discretion, increase the timeframe.

As an ST, I would think that the death of 100 million people, and the resulting economic devestation, would possible enter the visions of a few Precogs.

Or, Preston, looking to see how the RedSox are going to do this year, discovers that they all die. Everyone in the stadium is vaporized. I think that would be a clue.

Or, a Precog looks at the Stock Market for next week's possible results and trend. Whoops, the market ceases to exist in a week.

The problem with what Signy describes it that it has such a vast effect on the entire planet. The cascading effects are just too big.

Or, Precog is looking at the Stock Market in early Sept. 2001. Something closes the market for a few days. He/she looks further, and discovers the attack on the twin towers. Cascading effects.

[Jager]

James, your space-gun guy has possibilities, but then I have to ask, "Why?"

Again, he is asking for a group of novas to be formed just to hunt him down.

[Hugin]

Oh, I was just coming up with some sillines. Nothing really justifiable or even that interesting.