Unbeatable

[Troy]

Quote:

Originally posted by Vixen:
You could call it the soft-continuity principle.

DC calls that Hypertime. Infinite parrallel universes being created, dying and overlapping continuously. So Donny Blake (cuz I'm not touching the other example) makes an adroid somewhere, just not in this reality. Its didn't happen to anyone in the current universe. Only the readers know it because they got a peek into another reality that briefly overlapped and then split away. Jager beats the hell out of Geryon and we read the story to appreciate the effort. Then we go about our day because it didn't actually happen. I don't think that's what he's aiming for though. Or if it is he's taking the long way to get there. I think he at least wants Geryon to remember that he beat the hell out of him.

I think Jager wants to talk about it too and not have people tell him that he couldn't have beaten Geryon up because the toad died last year in a T2M raid.

Hey! I just got an idea! Let's kill off all the canon characters over the next couple of months. It'll be great. Mall kills off the terats, the elites do their normals dying in the field thing and Utopia gets hit by a new plague or something. The old guard dies off and we can either replace them with our characters or their little niche gets eaten by a bigger fish. Or Mal could accelerate the clock and *bamf* all the Q5+ novas to an alternate reality to duke it out leaving us to pick up the pieces.

Jager can be Mal, I want Pax's seat without the obsession on Mal, and Vixen can be the kinder gentler killer elite. Man, I'm getting excited just thinking about it. Let me know what you guys think. Armeggedon or Ranorak. Either one solves the problem.

[Vixen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Troy:

Quote:

Originally posted by Vixen:
You could call it the soft-continuity principle.

DC calls that Hypertime. Infinite parrallel universes being created, dying and overlapping continuously.

That is precisely what I am talking about. Glad to see that I'm not the only one who remembers Grant Morrison and Mark Waid's baby.

[Jager]

My point has so been lost here, almost ...

What I am asking is this:

Why are canon NPC's sacred cows that can't be beaten in their area of expertise? Outside of Mal, who breaks all the rules, ever other nova seems to be on, or Post N-Day and within the perview of what PC's can achieve, thus beatable.

Why does this come up with me? Well, I guess it is because I'm the only one who thinks it matters for a doable aspect. I think they can be beaten. I think they should be beaten at some point and time.

People either don't want to touch the canon NPC's, use them as window dressing, or use them as icons ... not characters.

I would like to know why people feel this way.

Btw, it also occurs to me that I don't see what is written here as inherently changing that NPC's worth.

Vixen beats Geryon? Well, she did. I dealt with it. It didn't cheapen him in my mind. In the end, I think only the individual author can decide whether someone else's event changes their perception of a character.

It is not my intention to change how people view the NPC. To me, it is about putting a character in context to the canon world. It is not the only avenue I have, but it is one I like to explore.

[Ptesan-Wi]

The problem isn't a PC besting a canon "mover-and-shaker" NPC on said NPC's own ground. That is something that should be possible, albeit in limited doses and with (1) damned good reason, (2) rock-solid tactics, and (3) reasonable exposition of the "above-and-beyond" effort made. It's the sort of thing that should be a major climactic point in a storyline.

The issue that was the catalyst for this thread, however, didn't live up to the above. Jager pounded the stuffing out of Geryon and Leviathen together, apparently without breaking a sweat, for the purpose of (if I recall correctly, as you've pulled the posts) seeing or getting a message to a particular romantic interest. The reasoning was almost casual, no mention was made of the tactics of how this feat was achieved other than the remarkably bad tactic of fighting not one but two of the Teragen's finest at once, and there was pretty much no exposition of how the feat was done. It was, in effect, a PC grossly overmatching two canon "mover-and-shaker" NPCs on their own ground for pretty much the purpose of window-dressing.

[Noir]

I also think it is a matter of consideration for the others players. Doing things to Canon NPCS affects the NPCs for the rest of us, and just going and beating up Levi and Geryon without talking to people about it and so on before hands was just plaine inconsiderate. You are trying to tell your story Jager, but so are other people. And it is possible in the telling of your story that you can ruin or affect things for other people in avery bad way.

In addition, you seem (have not read -every- post on this board) to be the only one who has this burning need to define or validate your PC by the canon NPCs. Other people have gotten across the distinct imperssion of being quite powerful without having to do so. Why is it so important to use the canon NPCs to define/validate Jager?

And the whole "just ignore it if you do not like it" does not work. For example, if I Noir is interacting with Jager, then those stories that Jager has written I have just ignored Jager do exist for Jager. He is not ignoring them. They did happen for him and have affected or are affecting his character. When he mentions that he did "thing X" that I have chosen to ignore, do I go "No you didn't."? It doesn't work. If these were all characters that never interacted with each other, then the "just ignore it" might work. But that is not the case here.

~Noir

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
My point has so been lost here, almost ...

Well, the two points are pretty connected actually. Should NPCs be unbeatable? Probably not. But should Jager take out the big boys so causually? Doesn't that de facto place him at the top of the heap? Not just of NPCs but PCs as well? I mean, unless someone decides to write about beating the ever loving shit out of an entire T2M contingent we have handed Jager the top-spot among all the players if we accept his fictions.

The way it was done does carry weight as well James. It was easy. A breeze. And it's not the first time you've done it.

Anyone remember this?

http://www.nprime.net/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=000010;p=0&r=nfx

In the last section you wax Apep, Lash and Epoch. I figure you had Apep's permission for that. I have no clue how tough Lash is supposed to be but Epoch's number two on the all time list of badasses of the Elites. He went down like a punk. So, Leviathan, Geryon and Epoch went squish under Jager's heel. Both times in piss-poor odds and both times Jager is so far above them as to be a Nova above baselines.

It's about the NPCs, them being treated like children and it is also about you placing Jager so far above them and by implication, us.

Vixen beat Geryon, but she got lucky. Looked like a one shot to me, one that he'd never fall for again. I got the impression of someone clearly outclassed but winning through moxie and guts. It seemed like a fight. Maybe not a bad ass brawl, but a real conflict just the same. What you've given us is nowhere near that.

[Ashnod]

And Vixen's fight with Geryon did cause a ruckuss amongst the players, if you remember correctly.

[Wakinyan]

Cannon PCs are out there for us to play with. Can they be beat? Yes. Should they be beat? That is a case by case basis.

Keep in mind that every single time one is used either one way or another it can shift the perceptions of them. Jager owned Levi and Gery but they owned Waki. Does that balance it out? I dunno really.

In a TT it is fine to run over these guys then back up and do it again. Here it is a little more tricky.

In general I guess it is a matter of how we are allowed to use the NPCs. If we all did a Geryon story it would just start getting silly unless we all decided that Geryon was gunning for Novas who used Nprime. (which would be amusing) The trick is we have a choice with NPCs that we do not have with PCs and that is we can use them without consent. From the Cannon NPCs to the NPCs we make up for a story we call the shots we get to win or lose on our ground and no one elses. (Another reason a ST would be good here)

I myself used Geryon and Leviathan to link Apep's past to Wakinyan and bring them closer together. I also used them to further Waki's own story and I even added a dash of IC conflict here to the mix in regards to Charr.

We all are telling a story about our characters but in doing so I think some forget that NPCs are characters as well and deserve their own story or at least a little credit. It keeps them from being undermined to the point that they are a joke.

[Jager]

Okay. In general, the canon NPC's are sacrosanct and mostly unbeatable. I will use one more (in my current Preston story) and otherwise attempt to avoid canon associations in the future.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Okay. In general, the canon NPC's are sacrosanct and mostly unbeatable. I will use one more (in my current Preston story) and otherwise attempt to avoid canon associations in the future.

I really don't think that's what we're trying to get across. There is a middle-ground between taking out two top-tier NPCs singlehandedly and without breathing hard and NPCs being almost unbeatable.

It doesn't have to be the two extremes.

[Ptesan-Wi]

Prodigy, I suspect that Jager knows that, but this is similar to his response to my anger over the "Neil figures out Thoughtwave's secret in three seconds" thing. His initial "solution" was for me to tell him who all of my alts are so that all of his can avoid interacting with them.

It's a variant of taking one's ball and going home. At least I hope it is, because otherwise it's a profoundly black-and-white mindset.

[Jager]

Thoughtwave, out of the blue you jumped down my throat. In an attempt to avoid that in the future, I asked that I be allowed the opportunity to not piss you off.

I realize there is a middle ground, people. I also realize that middle ground is wide open to interpretation, so that if I decide to write a story about what I consider to be a serious interaction of one of my characters and a canon NPC, I will have to get some kind of support for the story before doing it.

Basically, what is white to me may be grey to someone else, and black to yet another.

I just need to gather up enough grey before putting my fingers to keyboard ... or wrap my mind around doing non-canon stuff.

[Troy]

I still think we should get rid of all the canon characters. Maybe dump their bodies in shallow graves. No one else seems to like this though.

Since we're all mature about this there is something I want ask. It involves this quote...

,,

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:

To me, it is about putting a character in context to the canon world.

Since Jager got brought up so often in this thread I'd like to know what it takes to beat him. No plans but now I'm curious about what you seeing it taking to catch the man with his pants down to filch his cookie.

Middle ground is great stuff. Lots of fun on the middle ground. Good for everyone.

[Jager]

What it would take, Troy, is a bit of trust.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
What it would take, Troy, is a bit of trust.

???

So, you wouldn't share that knowledge with anyone unless you trusted them? I mean, it's not like if you gave me a blueprint on how to whack Jager that I could. You still have complete control over him.

I wonder, and maybe Troy wonders too, is, is Jager beatable? And if so, by whom? You ask that about NPCs.

[Jager]

No. If someone wants to write a story were Jager gets beat, I would have to trust them to do a good job of it. It doesn't matter to me what some character sheets says, if it makes a good story, I'm interested.

Carver is doing some interesting stuff with Jager. Stuff I hadn't really thought of and things I have next to no input on creating, but it has made for a series of stories I like very much.

If Wakinyan wants to write a story were he and Jager tangle, and after a long battle, Jager barely wins, I'm game. If Edison wants to write a story were he tricks Jager, I'm also interested. Sing and Jager fight to a standstill? Good enough.

Long and TimeSlip cripple Jager? Let's hear about it.

Sure, I like it when Jager succeeds, but he doesn't always, and that is part of being an interesting character as well.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Troy:

Quote:

Originally posted by Vixen:
You could call it the soft-continuity principle.

DC calls that Hypertime.

Really?

I call it lazy storytelling.

sorry, I just had to say it. Man I hate that "fuck it, let's change the story again because my idea rules and Byrne's sucked dick.

[Hugin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
No. If someone wants to write a story were Jager gets beat, I would have to trust them to do a good job of it. It doesn't matter to me what some character sheets says, if it makes a good story, I'm interested.

Carver is doing some interesting stuff with Jager. Stuff I hadn't really thought of and things I have next to no input on creating, but it has made for a series of stories I like very much.

If Wakinyan wants to write a story were he and Jager tangle, and after a long battle, Jager barely wins, I'm game. If Edison wants to write a story were he tricks Jager, I'm also interested. Sing and Jager fight to a standstill? Good enough.
Long and TimeSlip cripple Jager? Let's hear about it.

Sure, I like it when Jager succeeds, but he doesn't always, and that is part of being an interesting character as well.

Cool, good to know.