opnet [OpNet] Who are you?

[The White Rat]

Lemmy: I think your music is great. The world is much better with you alive. Keep on rockin'.

Sandcaster: Can't we bury the hatchet? You bury yours, and I'll bury mine...I'd be interested to see if you bleed sand.

[Y.T.]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandcaster:
By the way: if the rest of you Terats want to do something useful, a grand start would be to hand over the White Rat for trial.

Better for who? Not better for me. Not likely even better for you. You do not want me to act. You want me to stay away form you, your toys and your games.

[Sandcaster]

Better for all concerned, Y.T. Better for his potential victims, better for the memory of his past victims, and better for the reputation of novas everywhere. The White Rat is a bad deal for all of us, and the sooner he is out of circulation, the better.

[Y.T.]

Sandcaster, that is all nice and happy. Now go cry for the blood of Philip Morris or RJ Reynolds. Their list of victims is on a completely different scale than White Rat. Wait you are on those people who cares how someone dies more than the fact someone died.

[Sandcaster]

Perhaps I missed the part where a death caused by A excuses an unrelated death caused by B, Y.T. Your efforts at redirection are moot. The long and the short of it is that the White Rat is a remorseless killer, is a fugitive from justice, is most assuredly going to kill again if he remains free, and is exactly the kind of creature that generates fear of novas by the populace as a whole.

[Y.T.]

Sandcaster, so now it is about goals? Those tobacco companies kill more people, but their goal is money and they do it legally. That being said, they still kill people. They knowingly and willingly sell products that kill people. They in fact do so in way that takes years to kill you. They erode you body,slowly and want you to pay for it.

Seeing as you forget who are talking, I have killed more people than White Rat. I did so in no illegal ways, but three countries have tried to bring me up on crimes against humanity and war  crime. They lacked proof.

[Sandcaster]

Y.T., you are arguing a false dilemma. Look it up.

[Y.T.]

You are right, stopping RJ will not lower the amount of deaths White Rat causes, nor will it make humans any more happy with novas. Stopping White Rat will not stop RJ form killing people and may give novas a better name. So are you willing to let countless people die so you can have a better name?

In the end are you trying to save lives or get yourself a nice happy gold star from the humans?

[The White Rat]

Y.T.: It's not the number of people you kill, but how you kill them.

My favorite method is live vivisection- I love it when they scream as I pull out their intestines and organs. It is such a rush.

My second favorite is to infect them with a virulent flesh eating bacteria. I taunt them as they beg for mercy until their bodies liquify. It's even better when you make their loved ones watch, before doing it to them.

Give me time Y.T. I'll catch up.

[Sandcaster]

Y.T., since you want to argue like a child, I will answer you as if you are one and explain the obvious.

Those of us who are protectors of the law try to arrest the bad people who break the law. But we can't arrest bad people who don't break the law. That's why we have a legislature - they make laws, and then we enforce them. I am not a legislator, so I don't make the laws.

There. Is that simple enough for you, or do you require a diagram? If you want tobacco companies held accountable, get the laws changed so that they can be held accountable... at which point I believe you will find the baseline law enforcement agencies more than sufficient to round them up, rather than drag nova resources away from a problem where those baseline agencies are ineffective.

[Stormwarden]

My love, please stop throwing your time away on people who care for neither law nor justice. We both know they are so full of themselves that no amount of compassion and reason will sway them.

[Access]

Who am I? I'm nobody, and I'd like to keep it that way.

[Y.T.]

White Rat, you can kill all the humans you want. You are only killing humans. I was pointing out that, the only thing you have done that I haven't done is killed people in a clearly illegal way. She doesn't seem to want to hunt me down, not that she could. She is so human in her think, she couldn't grasp my plans or motives.

[Chaos]

Y.T. Consider it pointed. Thanks for giving us a background into a social problem that's 20 years ago in the bad old days when tobacco was addictive, carcinogenic and usage was wide spread. Thanks for the history lesson.

Did you have something to add? Something relevant maybe?

Access I'd promise to do my part but I'd have to know who you are so there goes that plan. You don't announce and I won't go looking. Fair enough?

Sandcaster, my faith is restored.

Stormwarden, I'd recommend you rethink that but that might be a low probability scenario. Instead, let's say something like; its not about conservation of time or energy. Its about social consciousness and saying, "This far and no farther."

I also think its about making a stand but that's a topic for another time.

The White Rat: craziness really doesn't even begin to describe it, does it?

[Access]

Chaos, unfortunately I have a high profile job which doesn't reward me my desires for discretion.

I was just having a bit of wishful thinking, but I do think your offer was very fair.

[Chaos]

Yeah, its kind of a pain. Sometimes I think I'd like to do the small bungalow on the beach thing somewhere, Oregon maybe, but reality is a little different. As soon as the word is out there'ld be lines, helicopters, paparazzi and stalkers.

[Good Alice]

What I am I? Well I could tell you what I think I am. Or I could tell you what others think I am. They both aren't the same.

I see myself as builder of hope. I build home for those who wonder. I make rivers flow backwards to feed crops. I give to those who need.

I pray to the gods, and dream of a better world. I believe the world is full of more wonderful things than those that can be explained with numbers. I know that deep down people want to make the world a better place. Sometimes they just are confused on how to do it.

I see myself as a woman who knows what she wants, and gets it. I do not wait for others to help me,I go for my goals and work threw hardships.

I am just a person. I am not prefect.I am not a god.

[GDP_ST]

Quote:

Originally posted by Sandcaster:
Y.T., since you want to argue like a child, I will answer you as if you are one and explain the obvious.

Those of us who are protectors of the law try to arrest the bad people who break the law. But we can't arrest bad people who don't break the law. That's why we have a legislature - they make laws, and then we enforce them. I am not a legislator, so I don't make the laws.

There. Is that simple enough for you, or do you require a diagram? If you want tobacco companies held accountable, get the laws changed so that they can be held accountable... at which point I believe you will find the baseline law enforcement agencies more than sufficient to round them up, rather than drag nova resources away from a problem where those baseline agencies are ineffective.

What a wonderful way to duck the troublesome rumblings of conscience, assuming that they DO trouble you, of course. "If it's not illegal, it's out of my hands, and I have no obligation to stop it happening."

Of course, your wonderful status-quo-preserving argument just so happens to ignore the very real problem: As long as 'democratic' governments (or rather the industrial and corporate structures that support them) make money from dealing death, that particular means of dealing death will be legitimised. Therefore, the real causes of 90% of wrongs in the world will be forever beyond the reach of 'good citizens' like yourself.

What is perhaps most telling is that you regard yourself as a 'protector of the law'. Not 'the people'. Not 'justice'. Not even 'good'.

The law.

The same law that allows large companies to exploit Third World countries.

The same law that allows millions of people to die every day in the name of the ever-bankable bottom line.

The same law that allows Utopia to build a facility at Bahrain and act with a license that would make Mengele, Stalin, and McCarthy turn green with envy.

The same law that legitimises the right to exist of the Church of Michael Archangel, a sanctimonious cover for sub-moronic, atavistic hatemongers with guns, supported by elected representatives.

Modern law defines as 'criminal' anyone who does not live by its often two-faced strictures, whereas the true criminals are the ones who make such unjust laws.

What an admirable position you take.

[Sandcaster]

Procyon, I am all too familiar with your brand of "subjective morality". It sounds all nice and noble, right up until you hit the point where one person's altruistic act is another person's jack-booted thuggery, and one person's exercise of freedom is another person's subversive evil. Your path is a recipe for chaos, and I'll stick with an objectively-applicable rule of law, thank you very much.

[Leliel]

The only flaw in that, Sandcaster, is that it binds the destiny of the One Race to baselines. Whereas that may be necessary in the short term, I believe in the long run it will lead to either our enslavement (Look at Utopia for the start of this) or even extermination.

I fully agree with you on the need for Rule of Law. We just need to develop our own codes of laws. Mal said as much in the Manifesto.

We could safely ditch the shysters though. Nothing much decent ever came out of lawyers...

[Ulysses Bailey]

Quote:

Originally posted by Leliel:
We could safely ditch the shysters though. Nothing much decent ever came out of lawyers...

I believe Mr. Roberts, Wakinyan, and (if all goes well) Sylvan will disagree with you.


As for the law, it is easy to point out mistakes or excesses committed by those who would abuse it. But when it works correctly, many people never notice it.

[GDP_ST]

Funny. You say 'objectively-applicable rule of law', and I hear 'jack-booted thuggery' also.

I suppose we shall have to agree to differ.

[Neil Preston]

When novas seriously consider picking and choosing which laws they will obey, and which they will oppose ... fates protect us all.

I have broken the laws in three nation-states; in my homeland I paid the fine, in Edcuador I would have gladly stood trial, but Project Utopia and the government had a change of heart, and the People's Republic of China refused to disclose the evidence behind my warrants in the provinces in question, though Amnesty International will be glad to provide my cooberating evidence to the testimony provided to the US consulate at the time those warrants were issued.

If you have the courage to stand up to unjust laws, have the courage to face your accusors in a fair court of law. If you are a citizen without a country then take it to the Hague. Be a true protector of personal freedoms and liberty by making the necessary stand. Be more than a braggart.

[Chaos]

To obey an unjust law is in itself an unjust act. I hate to sound like I'm giving support for a t-rat in the system, I'm not, but the fact that it is a law doesn't make it right or just. I don't advocate bombing a business.

I dealt with GreenWar once when I was in New York. They had my sympathy up to a point. Only up to a point though.

[Warren Verona]

I handle myself. Anyone who crosses me, deals with me. I don't see the need to call in other novas or baseline law enforcement.

Lex talionis.

White Rat: Whole sale slaughter for the sake of killing, is just ignorant. When/if your self proclaimed 'One Race' ever gains a foot hold on this planet you'll quickly be exterminated by your peers. You're unstable, a liability.

Get yer shit together.

Procyon: Dude, that stink your bitchin' about was goin on long before 'we' ever got here, and it'll happen long after our asses are gone.

Yer preachin' to the choir.

Sandcaster: Justice is not the only right in this world. I'm not saying your views are wrong, but, like the tail end of the coin, they are flawed. There is no law without chaos.

One day 'jack-bootin' thuggery' is gonna be all you have to get yer ass out from a jam.

Providing you ever get yer ass out from an office chair and do some real 'Municipal Defending'.

[Sandcaster]

Funny you should say that last bit, Revenant; I'll take it that you didn't get the memo. I suppose that this is as good a place to make this public as any, though. On the 12th of September, my resignation from the Windy City Knights goes into effect; on the 13th, I will be the new municipal defender for the city of Boise, Idaho.

[The White Rat]

You're leaving? I am going to miss you.

Maybe I'll follow, because I like you so much. Would you like that? Yes I think you would. I think you would love it, if I moved to Boise.

The people there need me as well. I could come and give them my gifts. It is a small town, and in only a short time, they would not need you anymore. They will have been saved through my enlightenment.

[GDP_ST]

Quote:

Originally posted by Revenant:
I handle myself. Anyone who crosses me, deals with me. I don't see the need to call in other novas or baseline law enforcement.

Lex talionis.

I quite agree. I have no moral need to call upon 'law' to protect myself or that which is mine.

Quote:

Originally posted by Revenant: Procyon: Dude, that stink your bitchin' about was goin on long before 'we' ever got here, and it'll happen long after our asses are gone.

Yer preachin' to the choir.

I realise that. Unfortunately, hearing people say "It's the LAW, we HAVE to obey it, or else the Commies/Anarchists/Terats will GET us!" makes me twitch in a way not conducive to the well-being of my surroundings. It's the call of the shepherd, willing echoed by sheep.

My reaction to it might be old news, but think of it more as a reflex twitching of outrage.

[BlackThorn]

Sandcaster, you will be missed, but by not nearly enough until far too late. I wish you all the best on your new beat.