opnet [OpNet] The terrible loss of glory

[Memnon]

So this is where the retired Elites go to spend their days? You know who you are. My brothers in arms or my enemies.

You stop the shedding of blood for what? Love? Inner Peace? Penance?

I weep for you. It would be a far far better thing to die a slow and painful death on a battlefield than to rot slowly, standing idle as the world is reforged.

Pity

[Mithril]

Yeah, because killing is *totally wicked cool*. HURRRRR!

F-----g elites.

[Doctor Nova Madigan]

Erin, there are times I could just hug you.

[Memnon]

So says the little girl made of metal. I think you would serve a better purpose if you were a sword little one. I would at least hope your edge would be far sharper than your wit.

[Edison]

Shove it. I've met bottles of mad dog 20/20 that's made more sense than you.

Fuckin' trolls.

[Singularity]

Quote:

Originally posted by Memnon:
You stop the shedding of blood for what? Love? Inner Peace? Penance?

Fulfillment.

[GDP_ST]

Shedding blood for baseline money is no better than lying on your back for a fat overweight businessman to vent his lust on you.

In short, most Elites are nothing more than prostitutes, doing for cowardly baselines what those baselines don't have the stomach or ability to do for themselves.

Oh, and you speak of the world being reforged? It's not Elites doing that. They are just the hammer and tongs in the hands of baseline powermongers. You are nothing more than a tool for others to try and reforge the world for their own ends.

As long as idiots like you believe that your ability to destroy on the behalf of others makes you important, the world will continue to stagnate. You are junkyard dogs who savage whoever they are told to savage, and yet somehow fancy themselves kings of the junkyard.

Think for yourself for a change.

[Soames]

Peeps, if you got nothing to say then think about moving along. I do it all the time when I come here. I see something that don't mean nothing to me and just shine shine it on.

I was never elite. Maybe I could have been and maybe its better I never was. I had other things to take care of. But I was something enough like it to know what you're talking about Memnon. I got just enough sympathy for Procy to see where he's coming from even if I think he's seeing stars instead of what's real. Bottom line is you can choose a life or you can let the life choose you. If your doing what you love then do it. But if your not then its time to move on to find something different.

[Doctor Nova Madigan]

Quote:

Originally posted by 'The Tattoo' Soames:
Peeps, if you got nothing to say then think about moving along. I do it all the time when I come here. I see something that don't mean nothing to me and just shine shine it on.

Translation: If you don't agree with me, be quiet.

Quote:

I was never elite. Maybe I could have been and maybe its better I never was. I had other things to take care of. But I was something enough like it to know what you're talking about Memnon. I got just enough sympathy for Procy to see where he's coming from even if I think he's seeing stars instead of what's real. Bottom line is you can choose a life or you can let the life choose you. If your doing what you love then do it. But if your not then its time to move on to find something different.

Translation: Blah. Blah. Blah. Lame cliche. Lame cliche. Obvious conclusion.

You're the one with nothing to say, it seems.

[Slattern]

Seems the subject of Elites elicits some strong reaction. Can't say I'm surprised. Base servitude and thoughtless violence tends to garner powerful emotion.

[Y.T.]

Isn't it easy to judge the actions of others when you have never been in their shoes or did what they did? It is easy to say violence is wrong. It is easy to say what elites do is wrong. It is harder to prove.Wars are smaller,fewer and have less blood shed.

You want to say what I do is wrong go right on and say it, but I know I do not live in a dream world where I believe no mater what I do it is right.

Procyon have you ever been so hungry that killing someone for food seemed reasonable? Have you ever been chased down by people who would kill you because of what tribe,nation,religion ect.. you are? Hell, I dare you tell me the worst thing that has ever happened to you, cause from my point of you are nothing but whiny drama-queen filled bitch who thinks he has found enlightenment.

[Doctor Nova Madigan]

Quote:

Originally posted by Y.T.: Isn't it easy to judge the actions of others when you have never been in their shoes or did what they did? It is easy to say violence is wrong. It is easy to say what elites do is wrong. It is harder to prove.Wars are smaller,fewer and have less blood shed.

It's not necessary for me to fight in a war to say that war is wrong, no more than I have to ingest poison to say that poison is dangerous.

You're trying to solve a philosophical question with empirical observation. You're using the wrong tool for the job. Of course, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail to you.

Quote:

You want to say what I do is wrong go right on and say it, but I know I do not live in a dream world where I believe no mater what I do it is right.

That's a straw man argument, and is invalid.

Quote:

Procyon have you ever been so hungry that killing someone for food seemed reasonable? Have you ever been chased down by people who would kill you because of what tribe,nation,religion ect.. you are?

More straw men. See above.

Quote:

Hell, I dare you tell me the worst thing that has ever happened to you, cause from my point of you are nothing but whiny drama-queen filled bitch who thinks he has found enlightenment.

An ad hominem attack instead of reason.

You underwhelm me, sir.

[Jager]

Its simplistic to say that elites fight for money. They get paid, and usually by baseline agencies, but it's hardly the prime motivator for any nova who has been an elite for any length of time.

Wars are less murderous, but could that be because the World economy is stronger now than it has been in the past? The enviroment is cleaner, we are producing (and re-using) more resources than ever, and there is no bipolar global political dynamic. Low Intensity conflict is "in", and that is something novas excel at.

I was an Elite because it suited my needs at the time. I am no longer an Elite because I developed different needs and altered course. I moved on.

Flicker, War may be wrong, but sometimes not fighting is worse.

[Soames]

Quote:

Originally posted by Flicker:
Translation: If you don't agree with me, be quiet.

Nothing like that kiddie. Just pointing out that when you got nothing to say it comes through whether you say something or not.

Quote:

Translation: Blah. Blah. Blah. Lame cliche. Lame cliche. Obvious conclusion. You're the one with nothing to say, it seems.

Maybe but I wasn't talking to you. So we'll just see if Memie's got the same problem. If he does then we got nothing to say to each other. Not trying to put you under the thumb either. I don't give a rat's ass and pretty much figure you don't either. So nothing lost.

[Y.T.]

Quote:

Originally posted by Flicker:


You underwhelm me, sir.

And you do not understand me. I am not talking about the war, rather those who fight in it. i do not think war is the best answer to most things it is however sometimes the only answer.

Now go back and read my post and look at the fact I am talking about elities not war. Look at the fact that you have no right to judge the actions of others in sucha broad scale if you have never been threw anything akin to what they have. If you wish to talk to me about life and death i can show first hand how close those two states of being are in many parts of the world.

[GDP_ST]

Quote:

Originally posted by Y.T.:
Procyon have you ever been so hungry that killing someone for food seemed reasonable?

Yes. Seven years before my eruption various circumstances, some my fault, others not, combined to leave me homeless and hungry. I was that way for 10 months, then I picked myself up and got myself a job. Through a little luck and a lot of hard work, I picked myself out of the gutter. I met my future wife, and shortly afterwards we married. Not once during my time as a bum did I harm or kill anyone. Yes, I shoplifted and begged somewhat, but no-one suffered as a result.

Quote:

Have you ever been chased down by people who would kill you because of what tribe, nation, religion etc.. you are?

Yes, and I have fought and killed as a result. But that has nothing to do with being an Elite. That argument is specious to say the least.

Quote:

Hell, I dare you tell me the worst thing that has ever happened to you, cause from my point of you are nothing but whiny drama-queen filled bitch who thinks he has found enlightenment.

You know nothing about me, and you make a judgement like that. Assuming you actually are interested, and not being the arsehole I think you are, the worst thing that ever happened to me was my wife being murdered 4 months after my eruption. She was knifed to death in our flat in London by a junkie burglar. The burglar got 15 years in jail, and would have been out in 7 if he behaved himself. Where was I? Off training to save the world. That occasion precipitated the first time I took a life, and it wasn't for money.

I have fought for a country not my own. I fought for personal belief and for a small amount of compensation. But I never considered myself an 'Elite'. I was a mercenary. Elite is a term that smacks of hubris and glorification of something which is, at heart, fundamentally tawdry and base.

Now, I have been reasonable and explained myself as much as I care to to the likes of you. Take my words as you will, because it no longer matters to me.

[GDP_ST]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Its simplistic to say that elites fight for money. They get paid, and usually by baseline agencies, but it's hardly the prime motivator for any nova who has been an elite for any length of time.

You're right. Most do it because they are so emotionally and spiritually stunted that the only way they can feel alive is through violence.

Quote:

Flicker, War may be wrong, but sometimes not fighting is worse.

There we agree. There are times when fighting is the only logical solution. But fighting on behalf of others for a cause you care nothing about is cold-blooded cynicism.

[Memnon]

I am a whore to my baseline handlers? I do this for the money? I enjoy killing?

What else do you need to condem me with?

Any of you who have stood on a field of battle. And a field of battle is when you must choose for you to take life or for your life to be taken. In those seconds that feel like years. Between the thud of your heart and the surge of adrenaline. Those moments become more real than anything. The feelings more intense than any other. You can lie and deny it on here, and be outraged by what I say.

But the fact is you cannot lie to yourself.

[Y.T.]

Quote:

Originally posted by Procyon:

But I never considered myself an 'Elite'. I was a mercenary. Elite is a term that smacks of hubris and glorification of something which is, at heart, fundamentally tawdry and base.

funny you should end ith the word base,as base line is just flip side the Elite coin. Then again you may think baseline being a comonly used term just means a human who hasn't eruopted and if so...Then think of elite as a term that means nova who is a mercenary. It is just a word to me.

Me I think of myself a someone walks the line of lesser evil. I know what I do is not right, but it is less wrong than anything else.

[Singularity]

Quote:

Originally posted by Memnon:
But the fact is you cannot lie to yourself.

Precisely the reason why I stopped.

[Jager]

Quote:

Originally posted by Procyon:
You're right. Most do it because they are so emotionally and spiritually stunted that the only way they can feel alive is through violence.

Don't confuse your own issues with those of the elite community at large. For some, violence is spiritual. It is a means for them to live and grow.
That didn't work for you and that's fine. You killed thousands in your rather pointless political actions, and as far as I know, you have no regrets. You decided they were "The Bad Guys" and you butchered them without remorse or regret.

In the end, you killed because you could. Whatever window dressing you have chosen to place upon your actions is just fine, as long as you recognize you killed those who largely could not have killed you.
You chose to be the Killer. You chose your Cause and you chose Violence as your tool.

For me, you are still the guy whose actions I had to explain to a grieving mother. I had to explain to her why her thirteen year old son wouldn't be coming home, because some other simple-minded bastard put a gun in his hand and you chose to incinerate them both.
Or the Kongo, were you turned an army of ruthless, murdering bastards into a leaderless mob. Of course, with you gone on to your next crusade, it fell to the less God-like to go in and protect the humanitarian aid workers from the bandit gangs you had created.
Too bad there was no one left to negotiate with, but you got to kill "The Bad Guy" yet again. I imagine that counts for something, somewhere, to somebody.

If you are forever going to be big on the Flash, but short on the Follow Through, stay out of way of those who look at something beyond ego-stroking.

[Origami]

Well, Jager, I could write a couple books about you. The truth about being an Elite. Perhaps once the harsh reality set in, Humans and Novas might realize war is war. With or without a Node.

[Hugin]

Individuals have individual reasons for their individual actions.

Painting an entire community such as Elites with a single brush is simplistic and infantile. I think we really should move beyond that.

Not all Utopians are mindless drones in thrall to a hopeless dream.

Not all Terats despise humanity and wish to supplant it.

Not all Elites are bloodthirsty villains who trade blood for gold and glory.

Some? Of course. But all?

Please, how about we try think things through enough so that we can look at each individual and their actions before we speak ill of them?

Fuusen is a thoughtless invention freak with some very odd fixations.

Lemmy is a self-aggrandizing fool with little thought that occurs outside of his pants.

Sandcaster is a type A personality and an unpleasent administrator.

Jager is incapable of speaking an entire sentence without refering to some good he has performed.

And I am an egotistical, monomaniacal idiot.

Isn't that much easier?

[Wakinyan]

Oooh what am I!?

[GDP_ST]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
Don't confuse your own issues with those of the elite community at large. For some, violence is spiritual. It is a means for them to live and grow.
That didn't work for you and that's fine. You killed thousands in your rather pointless political actions, and as far as I know, you have no regrets. You decided they were "The Bad Guys" and you butchered them without remorse or regret.

In the end, you killed because you could. Whatever window dressing you have chosen to place upon your actions is just fine, as long as you recognize you killed those who largely could not have killed you.
You chose to be the Killer. You chose your Cause and you chose Violence as your tool.

For me, you are still the guy whose actions I had to explain to a grieving mother. I had to explain to her why her thirteen year old son wouldn't be coming home, because some other simple-minded bastard put a gun in his hand and you chose to incinerate them both.
Or the Kongo, were you turned an army of ruthless, murdering bastards into a leaderless mob. Of course, with you gone on to your next crusade, it fell to the less God-like to go in and protect the humanitarian aid workers from the bandit gangs you had created.
Too bad there was no one left to negotiate with, but you got to kill "The Bad Guy" yet again. I imagine that counts for something, somewhere, to somebody.

If you are forever going to be big on the Flash, but short on the Follow Through, stay out of way of those who look at something beyond ego-stroking.

You know nothing of me, and you make assumptions every bit as asnine as Y.T's.

Ever stopped to ASK me if I regret those I killed? Of course you didn't. People make mistakes, and people change, Jager. Or do you reserve that right for yourself and those you happen to agree with at any given moment in time?

When I was slaughtering in the Congo, I was at the lowest point in my existence. If I live for millenia, I will never atone for that shame. I was mindless and stupid, consumed with the need to destroy.

Yes, my actions were thoughtless. Yes, they created as many, if not more problems than they solved. You are right: I killed because I could.

I don't know how much you have been keeping up on current events, Jager, but in case it hadn't crossed your narrow field of vision yet:

I'm not doing those things any more. And haven't for about a decade.

Something for you to think about, or something for you to come up with a dazzling rebuttal to?

Either way, I care not. People will listen to what they want to and make of it what they will. A good example of that is the fact that I stated:

"Most do it because they are so emotionally and spiritually stunted that the only way they can feel alive is through violence:

From that, you came back with:

For some, violence is spiritual. It is a means for them to live and grow.

Examine those two sentences. Think about the points of view. They are not mutually exclusive.

[GDP_ST]

Quote:

funny you should end ith the word base,as base line is just flip side the Elite coin. Then again you may think baseline being a comonly used term just means a human who hasn't eruopted and if so...Then think of elite as a term that means nova who is a mercenary. It is just a word to me.

Me I think of myself a someone walks the line of lesser evil. I know what I do is not right, but it is less wrong than anything else

I never mentioned baselines. You take the word 'base' and digress into total semi-cognitive babbling.

And however you want to think of yourself or me, thats fine by me. Self-delusion feels pretty good going down, but it's a bastard of a hangover when you wake up. I speak from experience.

[Jager]

Quote:

Originally posted by Procyon:
You know nothing of me, and you make assumptions every bit as asnine as Y.T's.

I base my observations on history, rants, and current actions. You were always charming when you wanted to be, just like you killed remorselessly when it pleased you.

Quote:

Originally posted by Procyon:
Ever stopped to ASK me if I regret those I killed? Of course you didn't. People make mistakes, and people change, Jager. Or do you reserve that right for yourself and those you happen to agree with at any given moment in time?

I haven't been living in exile, bud. I'm relatively easy to get a message to, if not find outright.
Do you regret your killings?
People change, but not always for the better. Sometimes they just become more clever in how they present themselves.

Quote:

Originally posted by Procyon:
I don't know how much you have been keeping up on current events, Jager, but in case it hadn't crossed your narrow field of vision yet:

I'm not doing those things any more. And haven't for about a decade.

Something for you to think about, or something for you to come up with a dazzling rebuttal to?

An apartment, reputed to be one of your domiciles, in Hong Kong with a passel of dead bodies and two novas associated with the HTT gone missing last seen at your abode.

A star fell on Jakarta and a warehouse blew up, killing over a dozen. Another HTT operation incinerated.

Those are just the headlines from this year. You are still leaving dead bodies in your wake. You are still playing judge, jury, and executioner.

Quote:

Originally posted by Procyon:
Either way, I care not. People will listen to what they want to and make of it what they will. A good example of that is the fact that I stated:

"Most do it because they are so emotionally and spiritually stunted that the only way they can feel alive is through violence:

From that, you came back with:

For some, violence is spiritual. It is a means for them to live and grow.

Examine those two sentences. Think about the points of view. They are not mutually exclusive.

If you didn't care, you wouldn't post a response.

You used the words "stunted", not me. Certainly, not every elite uses violence as a means of spiritual growth, but to call their path 'stunted' is ignoring their point of view.

[Sandcaster]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hugin:
Please, how about we try think things through enough so that we can look at each individual and their actions before we speak ill of them?
...
Sandcaster is a type A personality and an unpleasent administrator.

To the best of my knowledge, Hugin:

1. We have never met.
2. I have never been in an administrative role involving you in any way, shape or form.
3. You have not had anything resembling ample opportunity to perform a valid psychological or professional evaluation of me.

I'll thank you to "look at [me] and [my] actions before [you] speak ill of [me]."

[Hugin]

Oh, but Sandcaster, for someone as earth-shatteringly brilliant as myself you've already given me more than enough.

By the way, I consider neither of the descriptors I applied to you a negative. They are admirable traits in many ways.

[Origami]

Actually, Type A personalities aren't really a problem. There needs to be the hard-charging types in life.

As for being an Unpleasant Administrator... I do not know about that. Needless to say; to rule with an iron fist, you leave bruises.

[GDP_ST]

To those mercenaries who take jobs for moral as well as financial reasons, and try to find a deeper meaning to their work: I salute you.

To Jager: You mentioned Hong Kong and Bali. It's really very simple. People that make a choice to kill others for power, pleasure or profit. People whose path includes harvesting nodes from novas. I won't sit back and condone such acts through inaction. If that makes me 'judge, jury and executioner' in your eyes then so be it.

If people attack me with two novas and a host of trained killers armed with blacktech weaponry, I'm not going to give them a slap on the wrist. I'm going to assume that they have done their research and are capable of harming me, and react accordingly.

Yes, I regret the mindless killing I have committed in my past. I'm not going to allow that regret to force me into moral cowardice in the present, however. Everyone has their ways of taking action against those things that are abhorrent to them. You have yours, I have mine. The point of this post is to draw a line under the statement I made regarding wholesale slaughter of the misguided and uneducated.

I don't do those things anymore.

[Emily Williamson]

I'm not sure about elites. I mean, making a living out of fighting for whatever cause pays better hardly seems very morally correct, and I certainly can't imagine what kind of person would choose a lifestyle like that, but it is true that the existence of elites has quite possibly made warfare less lethal, and at least they get paid for it and choose to do it, they're not some poor conscripted kids sent to die without much choice in the matter.

But, if they are free to choose their lifestyle, I'm sure they should be as free to choose to leave it, and hardly believe they can be considered traitors or deserters if they do, simply because they weren't fighting for a cause in the first place.

[Jager]

Procyon, why don't you approach this as a nova-wide problem and not another personal crusade? Seriously, many novas are at threat, but have you even considered seeking allies?

So far, your approach to the problem is the same. It didn't work last time. Try something different.

[GDP_ST]

How do you know I'm not?

[Jager]

Thus the questions.

You are a fanatic, but also bright. Glad to see that pride may not be the sole guiding force in your life.

[GDP_ST]

Surprising and astonishing though this may be, it hasn't been for a few years.

We should have a drink sometime, if you could stand my doubtless stomach-churning presence that long.

[Long]

Some Elites fight for money, some for power. Some fight because They feel it is right. Some fight because they were told to do so. Some fight for their own honor, to prove themselves.

For some the Life on an Elite is romanticized, it would be great to make so much money, but what is forgotten so often is that you have to survive to spend it.

For others, due to the powers they wield, a Life of war is all they're suited for. I knew several like that.

In the end all Elites make the choice to become Elites, for whatever reason. That is their right, and who are any of us to judge them for doing what they wanted to do?

[Y.T.]

Quote:

Originally posted by Procyon:
]I never mentioned baselines. You take the word 'base' and digress into total semi-cognitive babbling. [/QB]

"In short, most Elites are nothing more than prostitutes, doing for cowardly baselines what those baselines don't have the stomach or ability to do for themselves."

Am I some how misquoting you?Did I some how take you out of context? Please tell me how you can say you never mentioned baseline. I would really like to hear that story.

[Jager]

I understand there will be a special club opening very soon. Meet you there?

[GDP_ST]

Quote:

Originally posted by Jager:
I understand there will be a special club opening very soon. Meet you there?

I'll be there