Aberrant RPG - Mega Stamina Not So Mega afterall?

[Asche]

I was going to post this on the House Rules Post I started, but this isnt something I've actually implemented into my game. Yet.

Compared to all the other Mega's, doesnt Mega Stam let you down just a tad? I mean after all the talk about bullets bouncing of you at lower levels and then boasting that MISSILES bounce of your chest at Level 5, its a let down to see the soak at the meager levels listed. I really believe they were thiinking of making higher soaks at the various stages of Mega Stamina and lost the nerve at the end. Then in typical WW fashion, never edited it.

What we have been duscussing lately is possibly an additional number of soak be given at each level of M-Stam. Perhaps 7B/5L per level of mega Stam. This would be a total Soak at M-Stam 5 that is enough for Some Missiles to actually bounce off you. Is this over the top to all of you? It definately caters to the defensive Nova's, like they really need it. But I was just brainstorming a couple of days ago and thought I oughtta set it here for awhiel and bring it to a boil before I actually use it.

Another way I made Mega Stam a bit better was making it gove extra Health levels in each wound level. I'll post that in House Rules.

On the other side, Does Mega-Stam seem balanced to you already? What with all the cool enhancements and all . To me, as it sits by the book, M-Stam is one of the weakest Mega's.

My thanks in adnvance for your helping me cook this one.

[ 09-25-2002: Message edited by: Asche Lonn ]

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Asche Lonn:
Perhaps 7B/5L per level of maga Stam.

Combine Q=5 + FF + M-Stam=5 and you get...
19/19 + 10/5 + 35/25 = 64/49 (or 69/54 with EuFiber).

The Puny Human rule would then apply to anyone not doing 35D damage, which include most people with Mega-Str=5.

I don't see how this is balanced against Mega-Wits, Mega-App, etc.

[Asche]

I'm merely referenceing Stamina ALONE and WITHOUT ANY powers to back it up. The blurb under the mega-stamina description level 5 states ..."missiles...bounce of your chest."

Please DO NOT REFERENCE ANY POWERS FOR THIS DEBACLE. I'm relating Mega-Stamina ONLY.

[Hugin]

Asche, I think you are doing what a lot of people (including me at certain points) have done. You are mistaking color text for the system. The two are completely seperate. If you read the color text someone with an Intelligence of 1 and MegaIntelligence of 1 is automatically smarter than any normal baseline could ever be. That doesn't fly.

I agree with Troll, the soak totals you are looking for, even without the ForceField additon, are too high. IMHO of course.

[Asche]

The totals looked too high for me as well. Thanks. I had never thought of it before, the color text that is.

Has anyone done a work around or any slight "twinkage" to M-Stam though. Now I'm just wondering. It does seem like the worst mega to me. Very unbalanced as far as the physicals go.

[Condomble]

That certainly seems true.

Dexterity is the essence of combat and allows incredible feats such as catching bullets. The examples of strength are truly awe inspiring even without enhancements. One characteristic provided by stamina that isn't matched by the other physicals is increased life span. Asumming you aren't killed by an enemy high stamina affords the opportunity to out live them by centuries.

[Hugin]

I think the strength of MegaStamina is in its enhancements. Adaptability, Hardbody, Regeneration, all of these enhancements are very potent. Look at Dexterity's. Accuracy? What, lose a round and gain three extra dice? Maybe that's nice for the occasional impossible shot, but I wouldn't compare it to Regeneration. Physical Prodigy? Specifically states that it can't be used for dodges. I don't mean to suggest that the other enhancements are useless, merely that Stamina's enhancements are a tad better, bringing up the value of the stat as a whole.

[Condomble]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
I think the strength of MegaStamina is in its enhancements.

That's an interesting thought! Perhaps the color text is referring to the mega-attribute and the enhancements as if they were all parts of a single package.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

It is very hard to build a "soak" character without lots of Mega-Stam. With INV & Armor it can be done, but it isn't easy. Mega-Stam 5 + FF and bang. Not only do you have lots of soak, but you have extra health levels and are immune or resistant to lots of misc stuff (Radiation, Stun, Poison, Nerve Gas, being stunned, etc).

[Cin]

I posted this before, but it seems to have vanished.

Now Mega-Stamina doesn’t give you a spectacular soak to the same degree that Mega-Str gives you lifting power or Mega-Dex give coordination that is like beyond belief. But I think it is all the “little” things with Mega-Stamina that balance it out. You can heal remarkably fast with mega-Stam without having the Regeneration enhancement. You also have a very long life span, become almost immune to disease and get several dots in a couple of skills for free.

Yeah, It might not give you a utterly haneious soak, but it is still good when you look at the typical nova and weapons they be encounter.

It is easy to get caught up in a powerful character and loose sight of the more common things. Yes, Cin’s Q-bolt does something like [24]+40 lethal and is AP, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t recognize a soak of 20 lethal as REALLY good. Charters like Cin are the extreme. Taking one power and working it to the max, and then slapping on Mastery.

[Sakurako Hino]

Did my post get removed? I could have swore I made one.

Anyways it was late, I probably didn't type anything coherent anyways...

[Sherazahde]

Quote:

Originally posted by Endeavor:
Did my post get removed? I could have swore I made one.
Anyways it was late, I probably didn't type anything coherent anyways...

Mine got removed too, dear. It's not just you.

[Sakurako Hino]

Grrr.

Looks like the little web-daemons are out in full force again.

I don't remember what I posted, so I'll just leave the thread to you guys.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

You said something about buying M-Stam(Regen) real soon. That would speed your hospital stay quite nicely I imagine.

[Sakurako Hino]

Yep, in fact she's out now.

That's why I say Mega-Stam is MEGA.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Great! Maybe you can join Bill and me at the AmpWell.

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by Endeavor:
Grrr.
Looks like the little web-daemons are out in full force again.
I don't remember what I posted, so I'll just leave the thread to you guys.

Don't worry, it looks like we've managed to throw them out again. It's starting to quiet down...

*CLANG!* Um, could you excuse me for a sec?

<FONT SIZE="5" COLOR="#FF0000">WHACK!!!</FONT>

Hah! Got him! Um, er, nothing to see here people...

I agree with the other people though, M-Stamina makes up for the lack of potency with it's primary function with the myriad of side-effects. Not to mention that with the possible exception of Durability, There aren't too many dud Enhancements for M-Stamina.

[Sakurako Hino]

*grins* No love for those little beasties.

Yeah, M.Stamina has what's needed for the tougher novas. I bet it's EXTREMELY useful if you plan to go full throttle with anyone in the XWF.

*bong...bong...* Erm, wait a minute...

KA.....ME....HA.....ME.....HAAAAA!

BOOM!

Ahh, satisfying.

[Dr. Arcturus]

Asche Lonn,

First off, great to hear from you again. Now, to business:

Ive got to agree with the esteemed panel on this one. As Cin was saying, you really have to think about the advantages this Mega and its enhancements give you in day to day like. Unless, of course, you make it a habit to tug on Divis Mal's cloak when he walks by...

Ponder on this scene:

Kyle Chards (secretly the Brick Who Walks) waltzes into gang territory without paying the toll, and is promptly assailed by about 6 gentlemen who dont exactly look like they sing in a choire on Sundays. Two of the gentlemen are armed with heavy pistols; three are wielding make-shift clubs. This leaves the gentlemen in black, who stands back and preparesto take in what will no doubt be a blood bath....

Or will it? Fortunately for our hero, his player invested heavily in Stamina (5) and Mega-Stamina (5, with the enhancements Durability, Resiliency and Regeneration). Even assuming Kyle has no education in the fighting arts and a weak jaw (something the mutilated punks soon found out was not the case), these guys could wail on him until the cows come home, and the man in the white hat will be none the worse for wear. Sure, he COULD just soak that pistol damage as lethal (it only does 5L, he has a lethal soak of 8, including the two from Stamina), but he doesnt know what these hoods are packing and decides not to risk it. Man, all it takes is one Quantum point, and suddenly those bullets have to contend with a bashing soak of 15. The goons with the clubs arent even worth mentioning,as they have the same chance against this bashing score as the bullet bouncing off of Kyle's skull.

As you can see, even one of those enhancements can make life a lot easier (and less dangerous) for a given Nova. Those extra bruised health levels and increased healing times dont hurt either.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

"..Durability.."

HA!

For one more point of experience, you can buy Armor +0B/+6L. This works without the quantum cost.

I always define this armor as "lethal attacks don't work any better than bashing".

[Cin]

Quote:

Originally posted by David 'Dr. Troll' Smith:
HA!

For one more point of experience, you can buy Armor +0B/+6L. This works without the quantum cost.
I always define this armor as "lethal attacks don't work any better than bashing".

Umm, that is pretty twink (or munchkin).

Armor that ONLY works against leathal and NOT bashing? So you armor stops a bullet but a 6 year old kind hitting your would go right through? Um, no.

It wouldn't be allowed in the game I play in and I doubt many others would allow it too.

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cin:
Umm, that is pretty twink (or munchkin).

Armor that ONLY works against leathal and NOT bashing? So you armor stops a bullet but a 6 year old kind hitting your would go right through? Um, no.

It wouldn't be allowed in the game I play in and I doubt many others would allow it too.

Actually, not necessarily. Someone who mentally perceives "Sharp" attacks and "Blunt" attacks as different, and is only has protection against one or the other would be perfectly acceptable (consider the example of a person who survives a firing squad, but only developed armour to that type of damage. They later realise this and beat him to death. Not so smart, but perfectly understandable

Of course, Durability + Lopsided Armour has problems. For one thing, Durability only defends against kinetic attacks like knives and bullets. Energy attacks like Fire and Electricity will go directly through.

Being ST has it's advantages. For example, Take Deflect/Redirect and Force Field. They both have the same sort of visual effect, although they both go about it in a different way. Which one to use? Well, Force Field is more general, you can use it against anything. Deflect/Redirect is only useful for Range Attacks. Fortunately, if you have Deflect/Redirect, the cheaper price allows you to invest more in other forms of protection. Both are about the same in value.

Cool, is it not?

[ 09-29-2002: Message edited by: Kirby1024 ]

[Paradise]

I forget the whole nuber off hand but I had a nova who with his powers.. too have the power to get 44/40 soak imuune to ag, well it turned ot leathel..He was mad up of cold forged ceramics. Teh stuff the use make tanks now..Man that stuff is justdick.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cin:
Umm, that is pretty twink (or munchkin).

Armor that ONLY works against leathal and NOT bashing? So you armor stops a bullet but a 6 year old kind hitting your would go right through? Um, no.

Personally the characters who take this already have soaks in the 30s. It turns a 37/29 soak into a 37/35 soak.

I define it as 6 bashing soak which also work against lethal attacks. Or in other words, lethal attacks don't work any better than bashing ones. It is also expressly permitted under the rules for "Armor".

But even at low levels it is possible to have characters for whom this would be reasonable. Someone bodymorphed into water could be immune to firearms and knives but could still take damage from blunt force. Even blunt force from a 6 year old.

Or if you prefer the +6/+0 option, someone made of rubber could be immune to blunt force and vulnerable to cutting attacks and/or bullets. I wouldn't employ either of those latter two options, but some people like having attacks to which they are vulnerable.

[Cin]

"Personally the characters who take this already have soaks in the 30s. It turns a 37/29 soak into a 37/35 soak.”

If they already have a soak that high why are they buying their FIRST point of Armor?

”I define it as 6 bashing soak which also work against lethal attacks. Or in other words, lethal attacks don't work any better than bashing ones. It is also expressly permitted under the rules for "Armor". ”

Then what you are says is +6 Bashing/+6 Lethal soak. That is TWO dots of armor. Each dot of Armor gives you +3 Bashing/+3 Lethal soak. I thought what you were says was +0 Bashing/+6 Lethal soak, which is allowable by the rules. What is ARE saying is that you are getting the FULL benefit of TWO dots of Armor for the cost of ONE.

Umm... no.

[ 10-01-2002: Message edited by: Cin ]

[Fortune's Son]

Quote:

Armor that ONLY works against leathal and NOT bashing?

Not being creative enough to actually take part in this discussion, while simultaneously being disheartened by the lack of activity on the opnet, I thought I'd point out that there actually is a protection listed in the armor table that is +0B/+2L.

Just a thought for consideration as you two take this to the mattresses.

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

Quote:

Originally posted by Cin:
Each dot of Armor gives you +3 Bashing/+3 Lethal soak.

Go read the rules for Armor again. You can alter the spread between bashing and lethal. +4/+2 etc.

Quote:

Originally posted by Cin:
Then what you are says is +6 Bashing/+6 Lethal soak.

Do the math for my example, "It turns a 37/29 soak into a 37/35 soak."

Quote:

Originally posted by Cin:
If they already have a soak that high why are they buying their FIRST point of Armor?

Because they are a soak machine and need more. The two cases where this has come up were a black circle XWF type and Troll. Troll needs a defense against Agg attacks and probably against armor piercing as well. He didn't have a power he could put imperv on.

For the XWF dude, he didn't take just one dot of armor. I think it was something like two dots, +3/+9 (without turning on superheavy). He was regularly facing 10[25]+acc+special killing attacks. Balancing his lethal and bashing soaks seemed like a good idea.

[Cin]

“Go read the rules for Armor again. You can alter the spread between bashing and lethal. +4/+2 etc. “

I know that. I stated that in my prior post. I guess you aren’t reading.

“Do the math for my example, "It turns a 37/29 soak into a 37/35 soak."

If that is so then it is granting +0 Bashing/+6 Lethal soak. But bay stating “I define it as 6 bashing soak which also work against lethal attacks.” then you are saying it grants +6 Bashing/+6 Lethal soak. So, in short, you are contradicting yourself by saying “I define it as 6 bashing soak which also work against lethal attacks.” That’s not true if it ONLY gives you a +0 Bashing/+6 Lethal soak like you show in your example of "It turns a 37/29 soak into a 37/35 soak."

So, if you are saying it grants +0 Bashing/+6 Lethal soak then it is using the option stated in the Armor description, but it is NOT “6 bashing soak which also work against lethal attacks”. It is 6 lethal soak that does not work against bashing attacks.

"Because they are a soak machine and need more. The two cases where this has come up were a black circle XWF type and Troll. Troll needs a defense against Agg attacks and probably against armor piercing as well. He didn't have a power he could put imperv on."

So Troll already had a roughly 37/29 soak without already having Armor (which you stated) and without Invulnerability (which you can put the Impervious Extra on)? So by your description, he didn't have Armor or Invulnerability but still had a roughly 37/29 soak? How'd you manage that?

[David 'Dr. Troll' Smith]

I'll restate it again; "6 existing soak that already works only against bashing now work against lethal as well."

And Troll is a posted character. I think he is under "What is your character like (part 2)". He was built with something close to standard 30.

Soak wise he started with:

1) mega-stamina 4

2) bodymorph with

2a) Density Increase (always pumping for 1)

2b) Growth (increasing M-Stam to 5)

2c) FF (defined as superfast healing)

3) EuFiber 5

4) Stamina 5

5) Q=5

Thus giving him a 37/32 (not bad for a starting character). His soak actually went down a hair to 36/31 when he stopped pumping the D.I. for one (he brought Mega-Str so he didn't need to anymore).

The obvious power that he is missing is Armor (just purchased last Thursday). He will be buying ResistanceX2, but hasn't gotten the points just yet.

One level of armor raises his soak to 36/37 but that will only last until he gets Resistance. After he gets the second level of Resistance, the plan is to get a second level of armor (+1/+5), and then his soak will be 47/47. At that point, anyone not doing 24 dice of damage falls into the "puny human" catagory. (Thus explaining why SpiderMan can't win against him).

What can I say, Troll is a soak machine. And yes, he has a temper when he is Green.

[Loki]

quote:

So Troll already had a roughly 37/29 soak without already having Armor (which you stated) and without Invulnerability (which you can put the Impervious Extra on)?

You don't need Impervious on Invulnerability. IT'S INVULNERABILITY!! If you're invulnerable to fire attacks then you invulnerable to all fire attacks, even if they are the result of a power with the armor piercing extra. It's called invulnerability for a reason

[Kirby1024]

Quote:

Originally posted by Loki:
You don't need Impervious on Invulnerability. IT'S INVULNERABILITY!! If you're invulnerable to fire attacks then you invulnerable to all fire attacks, even if they are the result of a power with the armor piercing extra. It's called invulnerability for a reason

He has a point. Impervious loses half of it's capabilities on Invulnerability because the power itself expressly states that it protects against Aggravated Damage as well as all other types, assuming it's a type of damage that your Invulnerability protects against. This does mean that Broad Category Invulnerability is pretty damn nifty, especially when you buy it twice. Fortunately, it's damn expensive to do so!

[wylodmayer]

To go waaaaaaaaay back...

I think the strength of Mega Stamina IS in the enhancements available.

My players uniformly invested in at least one level of Mega Stamina merely to get Regeneration. Far from being powergaming, it tends to make the prophecy of novas being, as a rule, incredibly hardy and quick to heal a self-fulfilling one. Sure, even without megaStamina they heal quicker, but, at a cost of only 3 NP in character creation, Mega Stamina 1 with Regeneration is an almost irresistable steal. Whereas I can look at the other Mega Attributes and only find a few enhancements that I really consider "must haves," I am completely enamored of almost everything on the Mega Stamina list.

I think the power of Mega Stamina is in the cumulative, overall effect. Sure, it can't replace Armor and whatnot, but Mega Attributes weren't meant to be replacements for powers. A serious brick concept will start from Mega Stamina and work out from there. If Mega Stamina obviates the need for things like Armor, then every character with Mega Stamina is a brick, and not just those characters who have gone out and spent points on "brick specific" powers like Armor or Invulerability.

Plus, raising the soak totals tends to start an "arms race" that I don't relish seeing the logical conclusion to.

Just my unasked for opinion.

wylodmayer

[Dr. Zero]

Simple-

Stamina isnt the measurement of how much we can get hit by stuff. Its the combination of how healthy, sturdy and tough we are.

Mega Stam =

Soak

Increased Life Span

Extra Health Levels

Reduced Wound Penalties (on top of those health levels)

Extreme resistance to disease and sickness

So to expressly apply mega stamina to power levels is confusing it with a power. You arent made of some other substance than flesh and without a power your flesh still has the same vulnerabilities. Just much much much less. More-over, you are healthier than a human could ever even remotely get.

[Charlie]

Quote:

Originally posted by James 'Prodigy' Meehan:
Look at Dexterity's. Accuracy? What, lose a round and gain three extra dice? Maybe that's nice for the occasional impossible shot, but I wouldn't compare it to Regeneration.

It seems to me somewhere there is a rule for taking extra time to decrease the difficulty...I wonder if they stack since you are taking the extra time....

[Charlie]

Quote:

Originally posted by wylodmayer:
Sure, it can't replace Armor and whatnot, but Mega Attributes weren't meant to be replacements for powers. A serious brick concept will start from Mega Stamina and work out from there. If Mega Stamina obviates the need for things like Armor, then every character with Mega Stamina is a brick, and not just those characters who have gone out and spent points on "brick specific" powers like Armor or Invulerability.

There is a difference between someone with Mega-Stamina, and someone with Force-Field, Armor, Invulnerability, etc.

How many times do see someone that is really tough, without any real endurance due to Armor, FF, etc.? Powerman from Powerman and Iron Fist has Mega-Strength and Armor, and an athletes stamina, but that is it. Gladiator from the Shi'r Imperial Guard was taken out by a simple punch once Reed Richards realized he has some sort of Force-Field that is belief based. By causing him to doubt, the field failed and they easily took him out. No multiple health levels or soak (and this guy lifted the Baxter Building, which is what gave Reed the clue how his powers work when the building did not collapse under it's own weight).

I think you should be able to take Resiliency more than just 2 times. What is the dif...3 Nova Points gives me the Resiliency Enhancement for 5B/2L soak or 1 Dot Armor for 3B/3L soak.

[Elrick]

While mega stamina by itself is not that great combine it with FF or stack it with Resiliency and armor and it can be pretty crazy. Mega Stam has the best enchancements in the game by consensus of everyone I play with. The only stat that out shines Mega Stam in terms of sheer effect on the game IMO is Mega Str with the auto successes, but Mega Str has some pretty crappy enhancements and there are no powers that amplify that effect str while FF becomes pretty sick when combined with high mega stam.

Adapability is one of the most widely affecting enhancements I have read about. You can live without food, water, sleep, air or even have a concern for temperture as well as negate or at least resist effectively many if not all toxins. Hardbody combined with the already enhanced soak for lethal from having Mega Stam means that attacks that would often outright kill you (such as disintergrate) now have the effectiveness of a gun. Regeneration lets you do to yourself what would normally take a level 3 Q min of 4 power to do, namely heal wounds for quantum and even heal agg wounds at three times the cost (per PH) !!

I dunno, I think Mega Stam is up there for best Mega Attribute if not second best. But thats just how I look at it. I do like all the Mega Attributes tho, and don't really think any of them are terribly gimped, tho some are obviously more effective than others (25 auto successes for anything is pretty crazy).

[Mortriden]

I have to agree that the greatest benefits to Mega Stam is in the "perks" that come with it, such as increased life span and strengthened immune system (ever tried to use nerve gas on a Mega Stam Nova?). The ability to take Resiliency twice improves a nova's soak, but not to the astronomical levels that are achievable with powers and IMO this is how it should be.

,,

Mega Attributes only rely on Quantum as a limiter, not as a strength. Whereas all powers use Quantum as a base, in one fashion or another. To reach the truly "inhuman" levels of soak should require you to expand your powers beyond Mega Stam.

To receive the increasingly powerful "perks" from Mega Stam and to outstrip powers who's sole responsibility is to increase soak (Force Field) would be unbalancing.